EPTIn-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 193
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 22 2015 02:37 Torte de Lini wrote: As for skill build, I am still very confused why we won't max Nethertoxin. With the advantage of mid-lane levels and your first-strike ganking with your ultimate; it still makes sense to me to max Nethertoxin over Corrosive Skin. Viper is not a ganking hero. He has absolutely awful base MS and no hard stuns or burst damage. You can get items for this (e.g. blink + orchid), but it is definitely not standard. Maxing corrosive is made to complement the playstyle of Mek first. If you want to advocate a different skill order that's fine, but your item choice has to match it. The strength of Mek on Viper comes specifically from the combined multiplicative survivability of Mek and rank 4 Corrosive. Having one without the other is significantly less effective. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On July 22 2015 02:58 TheYango wrote: Viper is not a ganking hero. He has absolutely awful base MS and no hard stuns or burst damage. You can get items for this (e.g. blink + orchid), but it is definitely not standard. Maxing corrosive is made to complement the playstyle of Mek first. If you want to advocate a different skill order that's fine, but your item choice has to match it. The strength of Mek on Viper comes specifically from the combined multiplicative survivability of Mek and rank 4 Corrosive. Having one without the other is significantly less effective. Agreed, he's not a ganking hero; but it is hard to deny his ganking strength where no one can really battle again after your ultimate. Catching foes out of place makes him very strong in public games; especially in this patch. The skill build is updated and I'll test it out tonight. | ||
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Velzi
Finland659 Posts
On July 22 2015 02:58 TheYango wrote: Viper is not a ganking hero. He has absolutely awful base MS and no hard stuns or burst damage. You can get items for this (e.g. blink + orchid), but it is definitely not standard. Maxing corrosive is made to complement the playstyle of Mek first. If you want to advocate a different skill order that's fine, but your item choice has to match it. The strength of Mek on Viper comes specifically from the combined multiplicative survivability of Mek and rank 4 Corrosive. Having one without the other is significantly less effective. I think corrosive skin gives u more room to make mistakes (mostly positioning error / over extend) and lets u be the meatshield for ur team. Maxing q/w forces u to take risks to get kills while being relatively squishy even though u are playing viper. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
The only time you really *need* CotS is if you're going Agha+Refresh. Otherwise CotS vs. no CotS is situational depending on the heroes. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
imo | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
On July 22 2015 03:02 Torte de Lini wrote: Agreed, he's not a ganking hero; but it is hard to deny his ganking strength where no one can really battle again after your ultimate. Catching foes out of place makes him very strong in public games; especially in this patch. The skill build is updated and I'll test it out tonight. right which is why you max the corrosive skin with 2 points in your orb. you can't run because you're being slowed..you can't really fight back because you have the tank..and if you do fight back, you're gonna get slowed even more and take damage..and your magic nukes don't hurt nearly as bad. while i still think that mek viper isn't so great with the mana cost increase (especially bc 9/10 players using torte's guides likely don't tread switch ever, ESPECIALLY in the heat of battle), it definitely compliments this build even further because you're just so tanky. so at the very least, you need to change the skill build to match the itemization in your guide. On July 22 2015 05:05 ahswtini wrote: glaives and last word are all u need. aghs sux now that it doesnt even increase global duration imo agreed. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Hey there. This is my Steam Profile. I posted a comment on your Pugna guide a while ago only to have it removed, and then communication banned. To be fair, it was inflammatory, but my point still stands, so I'm going to make it again here. This is only one point of what I said, but it is the most important one. Please listen carefully. Arcane Boots are shocking on Pugna, a casual Void Stone is far, far better. Ask any statistician and they will tell you that a flat bonus will always be second to a scaled/relative increase. Here's a graph. Note the values at Level 7-9. Consider roughly when Pugna gets his Arcanes/Stone, and when he begins to push. Here's the Excel document with the stats. I hope the comments embedded in the A Column transfer over fine, as they explain each of the rows so I don't have to do it here. I can understand why Arcanes might work, but the only time I would get it is if all my cores were starving for mana. Even then I just Life Drain it into them with Mek + Tranqs. Pipe is also great for removing the self-damage caused from that ability. If you must, try it out in game. The moment you have that, you are set for mana, for all of the game. You need nothing more. It's very, very easy to reach a 10/11 mana/s regeneration solely due to the Void Stone and Pugna's ridiculous +4 int gain. Feel free to unban and add me if you'd like to chat about this over Steam, but I'm GMT +10, and I'd like to sleep now. -Jordan I believe Yango himself mentioned that Arcane felt a bit off and I kept it on there for the sake of easing on mana consumption (I know when I play Pugna, I empty out my mana pretty fast). Tranquil has been suggested a lot, but I still prefer Treads overall; though the movement speed (with Eul's) is really nice with Pugna. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
treads and tranqs are both nice sure but I still maintain that pugna's ideal gameplan is best aided with manaboots. Although you could argue that guide-users are maybe not so big into optimally leveraging pugna's strengths or even farming on the hero at all. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
 PugnaAdded Guardian Greaves to Core - Pusher  Phantom AssassinCreated New Tab: "Core - Mid-Game" Added Helm of the Dominator to "Core - Mid-Game" Added Black King Bar to "Core - Mid-Game" Added Skull Basher to "Core - Mid-Game" Removed Quelling Blade Nature's Prophet Added Blink Dagger to Situational Items Moved Desolator to Core - Cary Moved Mjollnir to Extension Items Moved Shadow Blade to Core - Pusher Moved Orchid of Malevolence to Extension Items Removed Glimmer Cape Removed Moon Shard  ViperNew Skill Build: Q W Q E E R E E W W R W Q Q R (1. Corrosive Skin 2. Nethertoxin 3. Poison Attack) Added Black King Bar to Situational Items Added Manta Style to Extension Items Removed Glimmer Cape + Show Spoiler [Pit Lord] + Draft Guide Pit Lord (Lane) Skill Build: (1. 2. 3. ) Starting Items: Early Game: Core Items: Utility Items: Situational Items: Extension Items: Luxury Items: Does he need a middle guide? To do Should we do a Nature's Prophet - Offlane?  Silencer (Lane) Silencer (Middle) | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
deso is such a pushing item on furion (tower armor reduction), not really a carry furion item (too cheap/low slot efficiency) | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On July 23 2015 04:11 Sn0_Man wrote: how do u just remove qb on pa deso is such a pushing item on furion (tower armor reduction), not really a carry furion item (too cheap/low slot efficiency) You'd still get QB for PA for a non-BF build? It was in early-game, so that means it would be bought before either build regardless. Deso was in Pushing, but I felt the fast damage and decent ASPD made it semi-good as Carry. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 23 2015 04:12 Torte de Lini wrote: You'd still get QB for PA for a non-BF build? It was in early-game, so that means it would be bought before either build regardless. You get it until the game makes you sell it because you need space. That hero is garbo without items and needs the option to farm anywhere. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
The point about "you don't want arcanes unless other heroes really want the mana" would be valid if that "unless" weren't true 100% of the time. At the point where you start pushing at level 7-9, you're pushing with level 5-6 supports who are just getting high impact ultimates, and for whom one arcanes activation is an entire extra spell. You're not in a situation where you're feeding mana to one mana intensive core, you're feeding mana to a whole team that gets multiple high-impact spells from it. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
also deso doesn't give u ias roflmao every melee carry in dota buys a qb its literally the law. 112g to add 40% to ur jungle clear speed (since u sell later) is OP as FUCK (aka a reason to actually be a melee champ etc) | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On July 23 2015 04:14 Sn0_Man wrote: aspd isn't an abbreviation for anything, u want "ias" also deso doesn't give u ias roflmao every melee carry in dota buys a qb its literally the law. 112g to add 40% to ur jungle clear speed (since u sell later) is OP as FUCK (aka a reason to actually be a melee champ etc) NP has naturally decent attack speed. I would think you had a bit more faith in my knowledge of items than that. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
On July 23 2015 04:12 Torte de Lini wrote: You'd still get QB for PA for a non-BF build? It was in early-game, so that means it would be bought before either build regardless. Deso was in Pushing, but I felt the fast damage and decent ASPD made it semi-good as Carry. quelling blade is really strong on most carries regardless of whether or not you're building a battlefury. | ||
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