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On May 03 2015 18:24 Torte de Lini wrote:
Wow, ok. They fucking added a mana cost to Glimmer Cape.
fuck you
Geez and 130 mana at that.
I thought early aghs on WR was for the Cooldown Reduction and to pad out her HP/Mana early? I find the low cooldown useful for all sorts of things from Rosh Control to Tower threats without having to really commit much and it's really not hard to get it off multiple times in an extended skirmish. To me it seems really easy to 2-man rosh very early on if you have a WR with agh's.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 05 2015 00:51 Logo wrote:
I thought early aghs on WR was for the Cooldown Reduction and to pad out her HP/Mana early? I find the low cooldown useful for all sorts of things from Rosh Control to Tower threats without having to really commit much and it's really not hard to get it off multiple times in an extended skirmish. To me it seems really easy to 2-man rosh very early on if you have a WR with agh's.
You don't need the Agh's to 2-man Rosh with WR.
You also don't really get "extended skirmishes" where you can use it multiple times at that level range because when people have rank 4 nukes and level 6/11 ultis, fights usually end with one team getting all their up-front burst and unloading rank 4 nukes onto somebody who just blows up. It's only a little later that fights actually draw out long enough for a 2nd ulti to come up.
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On May 05 2015 01:00 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 00:51 Logo wrote:
I thought early aghs on WR was for the Cooldown Reduction and to pad out her HP/Mana early? I find the low cooldown useful for all sorts of things from Rosh Control to Tower threats without having to really commit much and it's really not hard to get it off multiple times in an extended skirmish. To me it seems really easy to 2-man rosh very early on if you have a WR with agh's. You don't need the Agh's to 2-man Rosh with WR. You also don't really get "extended skirmishes" where you can use it multiple times at that level range because when people have rank 4 nukes and level 6/11 ultis, fights usually end with one team getting all their up-front burst and unloading rank 4 nukes onto somebody who just blows up. It's only a little later that fights actually draw out long enough for a 2nd ulti to come up.
I don't know, I know you don't 'need' it for any one particular thing, but it still feels strong to be able to have it for multiple of those particular things. Be it a fight into another fight, a fight into rosh, a fight into tower, whatever. Just the fact that you can get things done a little faster because FF is always up and Agh's is helping to pad your mana/hp to keep you around seems really useful.
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United States47024 Posts
Well yes, it's "useful", but whether it actually accomplishes more than other items (usually Maelstrom or one of the 3 mobility items that you more or less need to play the hero) is another matter.
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On May 05 2015 05:04 TheYango wrote:
Well yes, it's "useful", but whether it actually accomplishes more than other items (usually Maelstrom or one of the 3 mobility items that you more or less need to play the hero) is another matter.
Agreed, but I think it carries forward a bit too. What 2 items what works better? How impressive is Maelstorm Aghs compared to crystalys Aghs? I feel like if you're looking towards the recently popular dmg/crit + aghs style of WR you can't really be going maelstorm early. Mobility sure, and if it pays off it's going to pay off well and be a great choice, but if you don't get kills or prevent deaths from it then you're delaying a strong killing/tower killing core until your 3rd major item or later. Even worse if it's a BKB game being able to nab aghs, crit, bkb without other stuff in there seems pretty handy.
Then again I may just be really bias against maelstorm on WR as I've always found it really underwhelming output compared to something like crit with the potential to quick drop targets and take out towers (daedulus obv is not the best tower killer, but it's far better than maelstorm).
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On May 05 2015 05:13 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:04 TheYango wrote:
Well yes, it's "useful", but whether it actually accomplishes more than other items (usually Maelstrom or one of the 3 mobility items that you more or less need to play the hero) is another matter. Agreed, but I think it carries forward a bit too. What 2 items what works better? How impressive is Maelstorm Aghs compared to crystalys Aghs? I feel like if you're looking towards the recently popular dmg/crit + aghs style of WR you can't really be going maelstorm early. Mobility sure, and if it pays off it's going to pay off well and be a great choice, but if you don't get kills or prevent deaths from it then you're delaying a strong killing/tower killing core until your 3rd major item or later. Even worse if it's a BKB game being able to nab aghs, crit, bkb without other stuff in there seems pretty handy. Then again I may just be really bias against maelstorm on WR as I've always found it really underwhelming output compared to something like crit with the potential to quick drop targets and take out towers ( daedulus obv is not the best tower killer, but it's far better than maelstorm).
Well if item costs twice than the other its kinda expected it to be better.
Personally i like maelstrom over crystalys (closer to same cost, still 500 difference), dunno why but i feel like it does more damage with or without aghs. Problem comes after aghs where ur transition to another damage item/ defensive item because theres really not natural transition from maelstorm, where as with crystalys u can always finish daedalus for great effect.
Not to mention how much more effective maelstrom is vs illusions but thats another story
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I will be leaving for Tallahassee, Florida tomorrow and will come back on Monday/Tuesday. My responses will be slower (1 a day).
I will test Windranger after, but this was recently on PieCat's build order
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Ember Spirit (Lane)
Added Quelling Blade to Early Game
 Undying
Added Iron Branch to Starting Items
Added Glimmer Cape to Situational Items
Added Guardian Greaves to Extension Items
Added Solar Crest to Situational Items
Removed Heaven's Halberd
Removed Urn of Shadows
Vengeful Spirit
Added Glimmer Cape to Situational Items
 Lich
Added Glimmer Cape to Extension Items
 Ursa (Jungle)
New Skill Build: E W E W E R E Q W W R Q Q Q R (1. Fury Swipes 2. Overpower 3. Earthshock)
Ursa (Lane)
New Skill Build: E W E W Q R E E W W R Q Q Q (1. Fury Swipes 2. Overpower 3. Earthshock)
 Leshrac (Middle)
Added Glimmer Cape to Extension Items
Removed Lotus Orb
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feel like undying is still a gr8 urn carrier... at least keep it in situational cuz having 1 on a team should always be in mind
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On May 05 2015 18:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
feel like undying is still a gr8 urn carrier... at least keep it in situational cuz having 1 on a team should always be in mind
Yes, I felt that way for the longest time but realized that it detracted from more worthwhile; more expensive items and removed it to save on space as well.
Might remove Necromonicon for Urn though, thoughts?
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
i think there are many better items for undying right now than necro (which you have already listed)
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On May 05 2015 15:08 Velzi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:13 Logo wrote:On May 05 2015 05:04 TheYango wrote:
Well yes, it's "useful", but whether it actually accomplishes more than other items (usually Maelstrom or one of the 3 mobility items that you more or less need to play the hero) is another matter. Agreed, but I think it carries forward a bit too. What 2 items what works better? How impressive is Maelstorm Aghs compared to crystalys Aghs? I feel like if you're looking towards the recently popular dmg/crit + aghs style of WR you can't really be going maelstorm early. Mobility sure, and if it pays off it's going to pay off well and be a great choice, but if you don't get kills or prevent deaths from it then you're delaying a strong killing/tower killing core until your 3rd major item or later. Even worse if it's a BKB game being able to nab aghs, crit, bkb without other stuff in there seems pretty handy. Then again I may just be really bias against maelstorm on WR as I've always found it really underwhelming output compared to something like crit with the potential to quick drop targets and take out towers ( daedulus obv is not the best tower killer, but it's far better than maelstorm). Well if item costs twice than the other its kinda expected it to be better. Personally i like maelstrom over crystalys (closer to same cost, still 500 difference), dunno why but i feel like it does more damage with or without aghs. Problem comes after aghs where ur transition to another damage item/ defensive item because theres really not natural transition from maelstorm, where as with crystalys u can always finish daedalus for great effect. Not to mention how much more effective maelstrom is vs illusions but thats another story
Yeah sorry, I didn't necessarily mean the comparison like that, just that maelstorm or even mjollnir do nothing for tower killing (other than getting you to the tower which WR is decent at already) because it's attack speed heavy which does nothing for focus fire on a building. All you get is the +24 dmg compared to the +30/+81 of the crit blades. Maybe I'm just playing her wrong, but I find her ability with +dmg focused items to blitz down a tower in 10-15 seconds pretty useful. Especially when you combine it with the fact that she has a kit of tools that let her do it pretty safely (powershot for vision, windrun to escape, and shackle to force 2+ hero response).
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United States47024 Posts
You never buy the Mjollnir upgrade.
Maelstrom's benefit is pronounced early because the % damage reduction on Focus Fire doesn't apply to orbs, making it one of the most efficient ways to improve Focus Fire damage. The comparison to small crit isn't remotely close until later when you have high enough damage and lower Focus Fire reduction %.
You're worrying about tower killing too early, IMO. At the 10-15 minute range you create more pressure by leveraging a solo-kill threat because solo-kills in that range turn into dead T1s anyway, with or without Focus Fire. That's why first item is usually Maelstrom (when you just need damage and not an engagement item to get kills) or a mobility item (when you need one to lead off a kill). You only need the Focus Fire pushing speed to develop T2 tower kills because T2s are harder to push.
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3578 Posts
On May 06 2015 03:59 TheYango wrote:
You never buy the Mjollnir upgrade.
Maelstrom's benefit is pronounced early because the % damage reduction on Focus Fire doesn't apply to orbs, making it one of the most efficient ways to improve Focus Fire damage. The comparison to small crit isn't remotely close until later when you have high enough damage and lower Focus Fire reduction %.
You're worrying about tower killing too early, IMO. At the 10-15 minute range you create more pressure by leveraging a solo-kill threat because solo-kills in that range turn into dead T1s anyway, with or without Focus Fire. That's why first item is usually Maelstrom (when you just need damage and not an engagement item to get kills) or a mobility item (when you need one to lead off a kill). You only need the Focus Fire pushing speed to develop T2 tower kills because T2s are harder to push.
I am pretty sure small crit increases your damage more then maelstrom iirc someone did the math and it showed like that
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United States47024 Posts
On May 06 2015 05:02 Thetwinmasters wrote:
I am pretty sure small crit increases your damage more then maelstrom iirc someone did the math and it showed like that
It's not close unless you're assuming higher FF ranks + Agha.
Until you get to high rank FF + Agha, the fact that Maelstrom procs are entirely unreduced is actually a pretty big deal.
Maelstrom adds 24 damage + 25% of 120 magic damage (average 30 extra magic damage per attack)
Small crit adds 30 damage + 20% of 75% bonus damage (average 15% extra physical damage per attack)
However, crits are halved by the FF damage reduction while Maelstrom procs aren't. So in rank 1 FF, you're comparing 30 magic damage per hit vs 3 + 7.5% of your damage per hit. Obviously the value of physical vs. magical damage is different based on the target hero's armor, but even on a target with 0 armor and standard magic resistance, rank 1 FF does more damage with Maelstrom unless you have 236 damage without either item, which you simply won't have at that point in the game. You won't be anywhere NEAR that.
With level 11 + Agha, small crit and Maelstrom are more or less equivalent, and small crit gets better from there on out.
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On May 06 2015 05:02 Thetwinmasters wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2015 03:59 TheYango wrote:
You never buy the Mjollnir upgrade.
Maelstrom's benefit is pronounced early because the % damage reduction on Focus Fire doesn't apply to orbs, making it one of the most efficient ways to improve Focus Fire damage. The comparison to small crit isn't remotely close until later when you have high enough damage and lower Focus Fire reduction %.
You're worrying about tower killing too early, IMO. At the 10-15 minute range you create more pressure by leveraging a solo-kill threat because solo-kills in that range turn into dead T1s anyway, with or without Focus Fire. That's why first item is usually Maelstrom (when you just need damage and not an engagement item to get kills) or a mobility item (when you need one to lead off a kill). You only need the Focus Fire pushing speed to develop T2 tower kills because T2s are harder to push. I am pretty sure small crit increases your damage more then maelstrom iirc someone did the math and it showed like that
I think once you get Agh's or level 2 FF crit is more dmg. The overall formula is (basedmg * 1.15)*(1-FF reduction) = avg dmg right and we're essentially solving for avg damage = basedmg + 30?
It obviously is also going to depend on the balance of armor vs what magic dmg does. The thing though is maelstorm doesn't scale with future items. it's always +30 dmg/hit even at minute 45 because the attack speed is irrelevant. Meanwhile crit is going to scale with other sources of +dmg/int so the item has added value for each additional item or level WR picks up.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 06 2015 05:39 Logo wrote:
I think once you get Agh's or level 2 FF crit is more dmg. The overall formula is (basedmg * .8 + (basedmg * .2 * 1.75))*(1-FF reduction) = avg dmg right?
You need both for them to be roughly equivalent (with Phase + Agha + either at level 11, Mael is slightly more damage against high armor targets and Crit is slightly more damage vs low armor targets).
On May 06 2015 05:39 Logo wrote:
It obviously is also going to depend on the balance of armor vs what magic dmg does. The thing though is maelstorm doesn't scale with future items. it's always +30 dmg/hit even at minute 45 because the attack speed is irrelevant. Meanwhile crit is going to scale with other sources of +dmg/int so the item has added value for each additional item or level WR picks up.
I mean, this is true, but the point of an item that's vastly stronger early game is that you do something with it early game.
It's not news to anyone that buying an item that's stronger early game and not doing anything with it is weaker than buying an item that's stronger lategame and just farming/not doing anything.
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On May 06 2015 06:08 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2015 05:39 Logo wrote:
I think once you get Agh's or level 2 FF crit is more dmg. The overall formula is (basedmg * .8 + (basedmg * .2 * 1.75))*(1-FF reduction) = avg dmg right? You need both for them to be roughly equivalent (with Phase + Agha + either at level 11, Mael is slightly more damage against high armor targets and Crit is slightly more damage vs low armor targets). Show nested quote +On May 06 2015 05:39 Logo wrote:
It obviously is also going to depend on the balance of armor vs what magic dmg does. The thing though is maelstorm doesn't scale with future items. it's always +30 dmg/hit even at minute 45 because the attack speed is irrelevant. Meanwhile crit is going to scale with other sources of +dmg/int so the item has added value for each additional item or level WR picks up. I mean, this is true, but the point of an item that's vastly stronger early game is that you do something with it early game. It's not news to anyone that buying an item that's stronger early game and not doing anything with it is weaker than buying an item that's stronger lategame and just farming/not doing anything.
Yeah it's fair enough; I just think it's being really overvalued even understanding why people like it. Like looking at pro games (and this is a small sample size so keep that in mind of course) maelstorm on WR is something like 0-5 in the 15 recent WR games where WR builds without maelstorm are 7-10 over the same 15 games (these being a mix of games involve crit, mobility items, and early bkbs in addition to a possible aghs). There were 0 games that looked like WR might go maelstorm but the game ended too early. The only game where WR did not have a major item she had a point booster.
I especially think it's relevant that maelstorm FF does very little to a BKB core where crit FF can still be effective and that may be playing a big part into how it impacts my sample of pro games vs how it does in pubs.
Edit going back further (50 sample games) maelstorm WR improves to 2-10.
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stats in about 2 days. I'm flying back today at night (8PM); so I'll try to do them ASAP
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EPT
