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On October 26 2013 16:28 Cyro wrote:
They'd have to more than double the performance of the game for you to be able to pass ~100fps consistently on the low end (checking frametimes.. where you have a data point for every frame, instead of just the last 50-100 of them averaged) and i'm skeptical
Hmm, what settings did you benchmark on?
As long as there aren't the massive, repeated frame dumps below 60FPS on very high/ultra settings I'll probably be happy as is. We shall see!
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On October 26 2013 17:35 Incognoto wrote:
Is Battlefield 4 one of those games that's known for it's great game play (like Counter Strike or maybe LoL), or is it like Crysis or Far Cry where the great thing about the game is the graphics? Not that the game play in either of those two titles is bad, it's actually pretty good. But those games are more about high-end graphics for high-end systems. In which category can we put Battlefield 4?
The graphics are nice, but far from Crysis 3 level IMO. BF is just great gameplay IMO. Get a group of friends together, play as a team, especially vs competent opposition and you've got one hell of a gaming experience.
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On October 26 2013 17:46 Brett wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 17:35 Incognoto wrote:
Is Battlefield 4 one of those games that's known for it's great game play (like Counter Strike or maybe LoL), or is it like Crysis or Far Cry where the great thing about the game is the graphics? Not that the game play in either of those two titles is bad, it's actually pretty good. But those games are more about high-end graphics for high-end systems. In which category can we put Battlefield 4? The graphics are nice, but far from Crysis 3 level IMO. BF is just great gameplay IMO. Get a group of friends together, play as a team, especially vs competent opposition and you've got one hell of a gaming experience.
I find it interesting that it's such a demanding game though. Would it more on par with Far Cry 3 perhaps? Well, thanks for answering, I've been having a tough time situating this game. ^^
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On October 26 2013 17:44 Brett wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 16:28 Cyro wrote:
They'd have to more than double the performance of the game for you to be able to pass ~100fps consistently on the low end (checking frametimes.. where you have a data point for every frame, instead of just the last 50-100 of them averaged) and i'm skeptical Hmm, what settings did you benchmark on? As long as there aren't the massive, repeated frame dumps below 60FPS on very high/ultra settings I'll probably be happy as is. We shall see!
720p with a lot of settings turned down on a 770
didn't change the low end like i showed in that graph with a lot of frames taking longer than 16.7ms at any settings due to CPU on 64 player
You can have frames taking a little bit or even a lot longer than 16.7ms very often without the FPS meter dipping below even 80. Trust the frametimes with thousands of data points, not the average of last second
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On October 26 2013 17:50 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 17:46 Brett wrote:On October 26 2013 17:35 Incognoto wrote:
Is Battlefield 4 one of those games that's known for it's great game play (like Counter Strike or maybe LoL), or is it like Crysis or Far Cry where the great thing about the game is the graphics? Not that the game play in either of those two titles is bad, it's actually pretty good. But those games are more about high-end graphics for high-end systems. In which category can we put Battlefield 4? The graphics are nice, but far from Crysis 3 level IMO. BF is just great gameplay IMO. Get a group of friends together, play as a team, especially vs competent opposition and you've got one hell of a gaming experience. I find it interesting that it's such a demanding game though. Would it more on par with Far Cry 3 perhaps? Well, thanks for answering, I've been having a tough time situating this game. ^^
I don't think FC3 is that demanding. 1080p ultra 2xAA SSAO is smooth for me with my HD7850 and E7500.
E: Afterburner isn't applying my OC on start up even though I have the option checked. Any suggestions?
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
You set your oc to one of the profiles?
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Alright thanks Myrmidon, I'll go with the VTX3D card.
On October 23 2013 15:27 Incognoto wrote:
Nice build up there.^
You said you're buying your parts in a store, which store is that and where? Some day if I have time to kill maybe I'll go there.
Are you talking about this one ?
Case: Fractal Design Define R4 Pearl Black
CPU: Processeur Intel Core i5-3570k (3.4 GHz)
GPU : VTX3D Radeon HD 7950 OC X-Edition, 3 Go
MB: MSI Z77A-G45
Memory:it Kit Dual Channel DDR3 Crucial Ballistix Sport, 2 x 4 Go, PC3-12800, CAS 9
SSD: SSD Samsung Série 840 EVO, 250 Go, SATA III
HDD: Western Digital Caviar Blue, 1 To
PWR: Super Flower Golden Green, 550W
Heatsink: Thermalright True Spirit 120
I'm buying the parts in Topachat.com, pretty cool website.
I'll also be getting a Gigabyte GeForce GTX 660 OC (2 gigs) GPU for my GF.
A question out of curiosity : what problems can an ordinary user encounter with a shitty motherboard?
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Oh I thought it was a store. Yeah wasn't aware of that retailer but I don't need to buy anything though.
Looking at some of their premade PCs (actually they aren't premade, they just ship you the parts) aren't half bad. I still think you're better off choosing everything yourself (they all seem to come with Linux) but the guys behind the builds clearly aren't complete retards when it comes to choosing parts, unlike HP/Acer etc. No windows though, which is where the big companies actually make profit.
Edit: yeah some of their shit is just a tad off
Processeur Intel Core i7 4770 (3.4 GHz)
Ventirad Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO
Carte mère MSI B85-G43 GAMING
Kit de 2 barrettes de mémoire vive DDR3 Crucial Ballistix Sport XT, 2 x 8 Go, PC3-14900, CAS 10
Carte Graphique MSI GeForce GTX 770 OC Twin Frozr GAMING, 2 Go
SSD Crucial M500 240 Go
Disque dur Seagate Barracuda, 2 To
Graveur DVD Top Achat 22X
Boitier PC Fractal Design Define R4 Black Pearl
Alimentation BeQuiet Pure Power L8, 630 watts
gaming/image editing rig for €1275
If I've learned anything from this thread, I find that that processor isn't going to be overclocked we don't need the Hyper 212 EVO. GTX 770 with only 2 Gb of VRAM is a bad choice here, you'd need at least 3 Gb of VRAM to not get bottlenecked, especially in a high end system such as this one. We're better off with a Gigabyte 7970 for the same price. Depending on whether or not this guy will stream, 16 Gb of RAM is probably overkill and he could use just 8. Since he's not overclocking we can assume that he probably doesn't need 16 Gb of RAM. That motherboard costs €98 which is expensive for a board that's just holding our shit together. We can use a MSI's H81M-P33 for €47 instead. PSU is overkill, just 500W should be fine. Case is good. Though, they don't have Windows in their build.
I beat that build with this: http://i.imgur.com/GTMgFvG.png
They didn't have any PSU under 600w. ^^
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On October 27 2013 05:13 Cyro wrote:
You set your oc to one of the profiles?
Yeah.
On October 27 2013 06:24 Kukaracha wrote:
A question out of curiosity : what problems can an ordinary user encounter with a shitty motherboard?
POS voltage controls along with an analog VRM's, resulting in lower maximum OC (CPU and RAM) and more voltage required (BIOS) for any overclock.
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What is your budget?
400€
What is your monitor's native resolution?
1920 x 1080
What games do you intend to play on this computer? What settings?
Dota 2(medium), Dwarf Fortress.
What do you intend to use the computer for besides gaming?
Watching streams, skype calls.
Do you intend to overclock?
No
Do you intend to do SLI / Crossfire?
Dont think so
Do you need an operating system?
No
Do you need a monitor or any other peripherals and is this part of your budget?
No
If you have any requirements or brand preferences, please specify.
No
What country will you be buying your parts in?
Denmark
If you have any retailer preferences, please specify.
No
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On October 27 2013 07:43 Wedde wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
What is your budget?
400€
What is your monitor's native resolution?
1920 x 1080
What games do you intend to play on this computer? What settings?
Dota 2(medium), Dwarf Fortress.
What do you intend to use the computer for besides gaming?
Watching streams, skype calls.
Do you intend to overclock?
No
Do you intend to do SLI / Crossfire?
Dont think so
Do you need an operating system?
No
Do you need a monitor or any other peripherals and is this part of your budget?
No
If you have any requirements or brand preferences, please specify.
No
What country will you be buying your parts in?
Denmark
If you have any retailer preferences, please specify.
No
That's a pretty tight budget but I gave it a shot. Unfortunately I don't know anything about Danish retailers or how prices fare. I pretended you were in Germany and I hoped that the prices are relatively close.
PCPartPicker part list: http://de.pcpartpicker.com/p/1TzU5
Price breakdown by merchant: http://de.pcpartpicker.com/p/1TzU5/by_merchant/
Benchmarks: http://de.pcpartpicker.com/p/1TzU5/benchmarks/
CPU: AMD A6-5400K 3.6GHz Dual-Core Processor (€49.90 @ Caseking)
Motherboard: ASRock FM2A55M-DGS Micro ATX FM2 Motherboard (€43.04 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Memory: G.Skill Value 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory (€69.00 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive (€54.25 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Video Card: Asus GeForce GTX 650 Ti 1GB Video Card (€112.89 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Case: Fractal Design Core 1000 MicroATX Mini Tower Case (€37.89 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Power Supply: Corsair Builder 430W 80 PLUS Bronze Certified ATX12V Power Supply (€43.00 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Total: €409.97
This should do I think. AMD A6-5400K is "only" dual core but it's pretty fast and it's also dirt cheap, which is what we're looking for when on such a tight budget. It'll do it's job just fine probably, the GPU is the one doing the "real" work since this is a budget gaming rig. Motherboard is just there to keep all our parts together, which it does a great job of. 8 Gb of RAM to fulfill all your RAM needs. 1 TB hard drive because 500 Gb hard drives are expensive for the amount of storage they give, we go with Seagate Barracuda since they're a sponsor of TL and they also make popular hard drives. The GPU is a GTX 650 Ti which should do just fine for playing Dota 2. For ~€30 more you can get the version with 2 Gb of VRAM which is something to consider, imo. Case is the great Fractal Design Core 1000 which is great for its price. Did I say this case was great? PSU is Corsair's CX430 which is a good, reliable PSU which is probably the best PSU you can get at that price range.
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I'd get a G3220 + H81 mobo even if it means dropping the RAM to 4GB or the video card to 7770.
To be CPU bound is a bitch because it is harder to adjust on settings, also it leaves the option open to upgrade to a nice quad core while in the FM2 platform you're stuck with APUs.
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Should I really get windows 8? I've heard the uh 8.1 patch is making it so some games can't run at all. What are the actual benefits to running windows 8 over windows 7?
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On October 27 2013 10:12 D u o wrote:
Should I really get windows 8? I've heard the uh 8.1 patch is making it so some games can't run at all. What are the actual benefits to running windows 8 over windows 7?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=432176
try shifting through that thread. i made this thread a while back to decide whether to go windows 7 or 8
plenty of good answers in it for pros and cons
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On October 27 2013 10:30 IMKR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 10:12 D u o wrote:
Should I really get windows 8? I've heard the uh 8.1 patch is making it so some games can't run at all. What are the actual benefits to running windows 8 over windows 7? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=432176try shifting through that thread. i made this thread a while back to decide whether to go windows 7 or 8 plenty of good answers in it for pros and cons
Thankyou. I love tl pc support, you're all so helpful. 
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Exactly how does a GPU and CPU work? does it get hotter due to the fact that im using low end specs?
like for example, i am using a Intel HD 4000 integrated graphics card and i5 3317U on my laptop.
when I play games, on core temp, my temp goes up to 70-80 degrees. is that due to the fact that my specs are bad and they are running faster for the process? does better specs keep cooler? or all these just due to fans only and CPU and GPU just has to the with being able to play on better graphics?
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Temperature is a combination of voltage, overall surface, thermal compound, material, and airflow. 70c to 80c is normal since the heatsink is small, airflow is crap, and most people don't clean the dust.
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When you're talking about temperature, there are two factors:
1. Power draw of the chip—note that almost all of it ultimately turns into waste heat
2. Moving the heat produced by the chip somewhere else
For a given chip, the more instructions are run per unit time, the more electrons are getting moved around to different places in the process of running those calculations and manipulations and all. So that means higher power draw. The higher the voltage, the higher the power draw (physics should give some ideas about electric potential, more current flow, again more parasitic resistive losses in the end). Different chips have different power draws running equivalent instructions due to the geometries and composition of internal elements. It's a circuit inside, and the building blocks may be different and have physically different structure like maybe a larger or smaller size and so on.
As for transferring the heat away from the chip eventually into the air of the room, consider the thermal conductivity of different layers of materials in between. For example, dust on a heatsink is kind of impeding the transfer of heat to the air. A fan running at a higher speed will cause more air to flow by heatsinks that have a higher temperature than the air, so more heat is transferred away to the air, lowering the temperature of the heatsinks, which allows more heat to be pulled from etc... down to lowering temperatures of the chip.
Core i5-3317U has lower specs, here meaning lower performance than some other parts. However, even if scaled down a faster CPU to run an equivalent number of instructions / time as a i5-3317U, the i5-3317U may have lower voltage (or higher, but i5-3317U has relatively low even under load) or an internal design that makes it draw more or less power. Of course, its cooling solution is scaled down to only deal with its relatively meager heat dissipation requirements. If you gave it desktop-level CPU cooling, the temps would of course be much lower.
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On October 27 2013 07:32 Incognoto wrote:
GTX 770 with only 2 Gb of VRAM is a bad choice here, you'd need at least 3 Gb of VRAM to not get bottlenecked, especially in a high end system such as this one.
Don't listen to this guy. He apparently has no idea what he's talking about. 2GB of video RAM is always enough in modern games unless you are gaming off multiple monitors (like surrounding yourself with 3 of them), or using a ton of dubious user-made mods. The GTX 770 is more powerful than the 7970. It is also cooler, quieter, and uses less electricity. The only reason to pick the 7970 instead is that it is cheaper. See this article for GPU recommendations. You can ask for help in the forum there to get more informed advice.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-graphics-card-review,3107.html
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On October 27 2013 10:05 Soap wrote:
I'd get a G3220 + H81 mobo even if it means dropping the RAM to 4GB or the video card to 7770.
To be CPU bound is a bitch because it is harder to adjust on settings, also it leaves the option open to upgrade to a nice quad core while in the FM2 platform you're stuck with APUs.
Hmm well do you really think you could be CPU bound with that processor? I had considered getting an i3-4130 for the hyper-threading (so 2 real cores and 4 virtual ones) but it was out of the build's budget. I also considered dropping down to 4 Gb of RAM but I decided not to.
To put things into perspective a bit, my last rig had an Intel Core Q6600, which is a quad-core 2.4 GHz* CPU. It served me really well, even up to Dota 2. When playing most games (including Dota 2, SC2, Far Cry 2, Crysis 1, RTW1), I was GPU bound (Radeon 3450) more than anything. Retrospectively the Q6600 was a pretty good processor. However it's pretty old and I think that today's A6-5400K should give better performance than that Q6600, even if it only has 2 cores. It's really cheap given how fast it is.
Nonetheless I decided to do a little research. If we're thinking into the future for possible upgrades then I don't like going with an FM2 socket at all. I really think that Haswell is the best thing to get in general. From i3-4130 to i5 to i7, Haswell is just the go-to imo. It's not like Pentiums are bad processors anyway, they do their job.
*Apparently this processor can be overclocked, I think I might give it a shot on my old system, just for experience/fun. ^^!
New recommendation:+ Show Spoiler +PCPartPicker part list: http://de.pcpartpicker.com/p/1TM19Price breakdown by merchant: http://de.pcpartpicker.com/p/1TM19/by_merchant/Benchmarks: http://de.pcpartpicker.com/p/1TM19/benchmarks/CPU: Intel Pentium G3220 3.0GHz Dual-Core Processor (€63.13 @ Amazon Deutschland) Motherboard: ASRock H81M-HDS Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard (€44.46 @ Amazon Deutschland) Memory: G.Skill Value 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory (€69.00 @ Amazon Deutschland) Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive (€54.25 @ Amazon Deutschland) Video Card: Zotac GeForce GTX 650 Ti 1GB Video Card (€108.90 @ Amazon Deutschland) Case: Fractal Design Core 1000 MicroATX Mini Tower Case (€37.89 @ Amazon Deutschland) Power Supply: Corsair Builder 430W 80 PLUS Bronze Certified ATX12V Power Supply (€43.00) Total: €420.63 It's possible to get a 650 Ti rather than a 7770 for €20 more. It's really difficult for me to not recommend the 650 Ti since it's a marginally better card and it's only €20. We do however go over the budget by €20. With this build you can upgrade to a great Haswell down the line, be it an i3-4130 (hyperthreading!) or an i5-4xxx.
Edit: @guy above me:+ Show Spoiler + I wasn't really giving advice to anyone, I was criticizing a premade build that I found on a website. My main point was that the GTX 770 comes in 2 versions, one with 2 Gb of VRAM, one with 4 Gb of VRAM. Now, if I recall correctly (I could be wrong here, I suppose), almost every modern game these days will use, at most, just a little less than 2 Gb of VRAM one single monitor set ups. There are, I believe, 2 exceptions, those being Crysis 3 and BF4, which both use a little over 2 Gb on single monitor set ups (edit: source is in OP). If you're buying a Gtx 770, you're basically going for high end performance. For me, high end means maxed settings on a single monitor set up. So if you go with the 2 Gb version of the GTX 770, then you're placing a bottleneck on a very good GPU since you you'll hit the 2 Gb VRAM limit before the card hits its own limit, which is a bit stupid since the GTX 770 is a great card and it probably out-performs the 7970. If you're getting the 4 Gb version of the GTX 770, then you're paying more than what you would may for a 3 Gb version of the 7970, which gives comparable performance at a better price. Here, I just took the three least expensive cards I've been talking about, notice the price difference: http://www.amazon.fr/Sapphire-11197-12-40G-graphique-Radeon-PCI-Express/dp/B008I7YZJY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382876873&sr=8-1&keywords=7970http://www.amazon.fr/MSI-N770-TF-2GD5-PCI-Express/dp/B00D3XW8MO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382876879&sr=8-1&keywords=gtx 770http://www.amazon.fr/Gigabyte-N770OC-4GD-graphique-GeForce-Express/dp/B00CU9GOAO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1382876879&sr=8-4&keywords=gtx 770That €414 770 will out-perform the €339 7970, but on a single monitor set up, I think that the difference doesn't justify the extra cost as a 7970 should do more than enough on single monitor set ups and VRAM won't be a bottleneck when playing either Crysis 3 or BF4.
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EPT
