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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On September 09 2014 10:46 LimeNade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 07:50 Cyro wrote:
60-70c is normal operation.
If your case temp is 25c and max operating temp is 100c.. you have 75c of headroom and you're only using 40 of it.
CPU's don't just die because their cores are running too hot - the main problems with heat are probably..
1; an upper limit on operating temperature, which you're not hitting
2; resistance of the chip (thus power consumption) increasing with temperature, which is just physics and it's not a problem with operating or a major factor in cooling or power costs unless you are a niche user (such as somebody doing mass litecoin mining)
3; The big one - degradation being dependant on load put on the CPU, as well as voltage and temperature. Intel runs those i5 CPU's are very low voltages though, and give them warranty for running at 100% load all day and night for X years at as close to 100c as you want. Overclockers have even taken the same CPU's, ran them at voltages that would degrade them 5x+ faster, and then used them (or similar CPU's) for long enough to say that you could probably use one of those at those stock voltages and those temperatures for 20 years in a system gaming 15 hours a week if you wanted to, maybe eventually requiring a slight increase in voltage or drop in clock speed to stay stable, but nothing even worth mentioning for anything even remotely resembling a regular user, even one who does not want to replace parts until long after they are considered ancient.
If you dont like stuff running at anything but really cool temperatures, you're far more likely to be concerned with GPU; they rarely run that cold and there's a lot harder and more noisy to keep cool. Ok sounds good then no worries on the cpu front then. I have gtx 760 evga it has a single fan but it has run really well so far for the past few months.
If you check the temps, you will probably see them around 70c with some noise after sustained GPU load with something like unigine heaven 4.0 ~~ (but that's normal)
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o_o
I've been messing around with my computer a bit since SSD is acting up. Had to reinstall windows since I touched something I shouldn't have.
I used Teracopy to move a file from windows.old to my fresh install. Holy crap that was fast. 18 Gb of files moved in less than a minute. I'm on my butt, heh.
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On September 09 2014 16:26 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 10:46 LimeNade wrote:On September 09 2014 07:50 Cyro wrote:
60-70c is normal operation.
If your case temp is 25c and max operating temp is 100c.. you have 75c of headroom and you're only using 40 of it.
CPU's don't just die because their cores are running too hot - the main problems with heat are probably..
1; an upper limit on operating temperature, which you're not hitting
2; resistance of the chip (thus power consumption) increasing with temperature, which is just physics and it's not a problem with operating or a major factor in cooling or power costs unless you are a niche user (such as somebody doing mass litecoin mining)
3; The big one - degradation being dependant on load put on the CPU, as well as voltage and temperature. Intel runs those i5 CPU's are very low voltages though, and give them warranty for running at 100% load all day and night for X years at as close to 100c as you want. Overclockers have even taken the same CPU's, ran them at voltages that would degrade them 5x+ faster, and then used them (or similar CPU's) for long enough to say that you could probably use one of those at those stock voltages and those temperatures for 20 years in a system gaming 15 hours a week if you wanted to, maybe eventually requiring a slight increase in voltage or drop in clock speed to stay stable, but nothing even worth mentioning for anything even remotely resembling a regular user, even one who does not want to replace parts until long after they are considered ancient.
If you dont like stuff running at anything but really cool temperatures, you're far more likely to be concerned with GPU; they rarely run that cold and there's a lot harder and more noisy to keep cool. Ok sounds good then no worries on the cpu front then. I have gtx 760 evga it has a single fan but it has run really well so far for the past few months. If you check the temps, you will probably see them around 70c with some noise after sustained GPU load with something like unigine heaven 4.0 ~~ (but that's normal)
Just one more question lol so even on start up with nothing open CPU around 50 degrees Celsius is okay?
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On September 10 2014 00:43 LimeNade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 16:26 Cyro wrote:On September 09 2014 10:46 LimeNade wrote:On September 09 2014 07:50 Cyro wrote:
60-70c is normal operation.
If your case temp is 25c and max operating temp is 100c.. you have 75c of headroom and you're only using 40 of it.
CPU's don't just die because their cores are running too hot - the main problems with heat are probably..
1; an upper limit on operating temperature, which you're not hitting
2; resistance of the chip (thus power consumption) increasing with temperature, which is just physics and it's not a problem with operating or a major factor in cooling or power costs unless you are a niche user (such as somebody doing mass litecoin mining)
3; The big one - degradation being dependant on load put on the CPU, as well as voltage and temperature. Intel runs those i5 CPU's are very low voltages though, and give them warranty for running at 100% load all day and night for X years at as close to 100c as you want. Overclockers have even taken the same CPU's, ran them at voltages that would degrade them 5x+ faster, and then used them (or similar CPU's) for long enough to say that you could probably use one of those at those stock voltages and those temperatures for 20 years in a system gaming 15 hours a week if you wanted to, maybe eventually requiring a slight increase in voltage or drop in clock speed to stay stable, but nothing even worth mentioning for anything even remotely resembling a regular user, even one who does not want to replace parts until long after they are considered ancient.
If you dont like stuff running at anything but really cool temperatures, you're far more likely to be concerned with GPU; they rarely run that cold and there's a lot harder and more noisy to keep cool. Ok sounds good then no worries on the cpu front then. I have gtx 760 evga it has a single fan but it has run really well so far for the past few months. If you check the temps, you will probably see them around 70c with some noise after sustained GPU load with something like unigine heaven 4.0 ~~ (but that's normal) Just one more question lol so even on start up with nothing open CPU around 50 degrees Celsius is okay?
With room temp around 16-22c, a decent amount of case airflow and cpu idling properly, it should get like ~30c idle temp when at 0% load even with stock cooler afaik. Make sure you have balanced power plan set in windows and hwinfo says it's at ~800mhz idle
You might have to manually enable EIST, c3, c6/c7 in bios if you're not getting proper haswell idles
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On September 10 2014 00:51 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 00:43 LimeNade wrote:On September 09 2014 16:26 Cyro wrote:On September 09 2014 10:46 LimeNade wrote:On September 09 2014 07:50 Cyro wrote:
60-70c is normal operation.
If your case temp is 25c and max operating temp is 100c.. you have 75c of headroom and you're only using 40 of it.
CPU's don't just die because their cores are running too hot - the main problems with heat are probably..
1; an upper limit on operating temperature, which you're not hitting
2; resistance of the chip (thus power consumption) increasing with temperature, which is just physics and it's not a problem with operating or a major factor in cooling or power costs unless you are a niche user (such as somebody doing mass litecoin mining)
3; The big one - degradation being dependant on load put on the CPU, as well as voltage and temperature. Intel runs those i5 CPU's are very low voltages though, and give them warranty for running at 100% load all day and night for X years at as close to 100c as you want. Overclockers have even taken the same CPU's, ran them at voltages that would degrade them 5x+ faster, and then used them (or similar CPU's) for long enough to say that you could probably use one of those at those stock voltages and those temperatures for 20 years in a system gaming 15 hours a week if you wanted to, maybe eventually requiring a slight increase in voltage or drop in clock speed to stay stable, but nothing even worth mentioning for anything even remotely resembling a regular user, even one who does not want to replace parts until long after they are considered ancient.
If you dont like stuff running at anything but really cool temperatures, you're far more likely to be concerned with GPU; they rarely run that cold and there's a lot harder and more noisy to keep cool. Ok sounds good then no worries on the cpu front then. I have gtx 760 evga it has a single fan but it has run really well so far for the past few months. If you check the temps, you will probably see them around 70c with some noise after sustained GPU load with something like unigine heaven 4.0 ~~ (but that's normal) Just one more question lol so even on start up with nothing open CPU around 50 degrees Celsius is okay? With room temp around 16-22c, a decent amount of case airflow and cpu idling properly, it should get like ~30c idle temp when at 0% load even with stock cooler afaik. Make sure you have balanced power plan set in windows and hwinfo says it's at ~800mhz idle You might have to manually enable EIST, c3, c6/c7 in bios if you're not getting proper haswell idles
Hmm when I have nothing opened (all anti virus stuff turned off too) my cpu usage is still at 25%. The cores temps hover between 40-50 so I guess that would be close to 30 at 0% load but not sure how I can get my cpu load to go below 25% ?
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Check your frequency, 25% load at 800mhz isn't anything near 25% load at 3000mhz+. Other than that, you can see CPU usage of programs in task manager. I can sit at 0-3% or so on 800mhz.
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On September 10 2014 03:49 Cyro wrote:
Check your frequency, 25% load at 800mhz isn't anything near 25% load at 3000mhz+. Other than that, you can see CPU usage of programs in task manager. I can sit at 0-3% or so on 800mhz.
Hmm I don't know why but my CPU Frequency never drops below 3600mhz even when I left it idle for 5-10 minutes with no applications open and under processes I don't really see anything out of the ordinary.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
^Windows power plan set to balanced (if you don't have that, fix it)
^CPU load below 10% (if it's not below 10% at idle, fix it)
if that still doesn't drop, go to bios and manually enable EIST, as well as c3 and c6/c7 states
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On September 10 2014 07:29 Cyro wrote:
^Windows power plan set to balanced (if you don't have that, fix it)
^CPU load below 10% (if it's not below 10% at idle, fix it)
if that still doesn't drop, go to bios and manually enable EIST, as well as c3 and c6/c7 states
Will having my HDD never turn off affect the CPU ? I changed it to balanced but I have had a weird problem in the past where if my HDD goes to sleep when my computer goes to sleep when I go to shut it down it crashes. When I set the HDD to never go to sleep/turn off I haven't had the crashing problem since.
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It should have very little effect on the CPU.
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On September 10 2014 07:29 Cyro wrote:
^Windows power plan set to balanced (if you don't have that, fix it)
^CPU load below 10% (if it's not below 10% at idle, fix it)
if that still doesn't drop, go to bios and manually enable EIST, as well as c3 and c6/c7 states
Okay I went into bios and turned all those from "auto" to "enabled". The CPU seems to jump a lot around from 800mhz to 3800mhz I am assuming that is fine since it is happening so fast that bouncing between .8 and 3.8 when not in idle is fine? Before it was constantly at least 3600mhz no matter what I was doing unless I put it to sleep.
EDIT: I don't understand but I had to go back into the bios this morning and redo it to stop it from running at 105% no matter what. Now I have it back bouncing between 800mhz-3800mhz which overall seems to keep my core temps 7-10 degrees lower. Also my load % seems to be overall lower even when I am using google chrome with 20 tabs open at once with twitch running as well.
EDIT 2: I really don't get it, I woke it up from sleep and now I am back to the CPU running at 100-105% with at least 20-25% load no matter what I am doing even if it is idle. No apps and no processes open that I can tell are not supposed to be open.
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This is kind of interesting results for Broadwell-Y (Core M), the ultra low power scaling down of Intel's first 14 nm product, the next generation after Haswell. Intel doesn't do much in the way of CPU architecture changes when moving process nodes, so IPC is supposed to be low single digits percentage points better than Haswell at best, so there should be little of interest in the desktop space for a while...
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Processors/IDF-2014-IDF-2014-Intel-Shows-Core-M-5Y70-Performance-Numbers-Numbers
http://www.legitreviews.com/intel-core-m-5y70-broadwell-y-benchmark-numbers-run-at-idf-2014_150217
The highest-end 5Y70 config is a nominal 4.5W TDP x86 processor suitable for tablets, 2C / 4T, 1.1 GHz base / 2.6 GHz turbo for CPU cores, 100 MHz base / 850 MHz turbo graphics being tested in a fanless, 7.2 mm thick, 12.5 inch tablet. (tested by third parties but on Intel's hardware at their event)
Cinebench multi-threaded scored the same as the stock desktop Pentium G3258 (Haswell 2C / 2T, 53W TDP, 3.2 GHz), half of the i7-960 (Bloomfield 4C / 8T, 130W TDP, 3.2-3.46 GHz) using half the cores, and better than AMD's desktop A8-7600 (Kaveri 2M / 4C on latest Steamroller architecture, 45W TDP, 3.1-3.3 GHz).
That must mean it can actually sustain clocks on both cores in the 2.x range with little GPU load using single-digits watts. It kills the mobile chips, but that's with a way higher platform and chip cost and needing a little larger form factor. That said, isn't Tegra K1 in the Shield supposed to run at similar thermal envelopes? Core M isn't out yet, but it's supposed to be shipping next month in products.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On September 10 2014 12:17 LimeNade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 07:29 Cyro wrote:
^Windows power plan set to balanced (if you don't have that, fix it)
^CPU load below 10% (if it's not below 10% at idle, fix it)
if that still doesn't drop, go to bios and manually enable EIST, as well as c3 and c6/c7 states Okay I went into bios and turned all those from "auto" to "enabled". The CPU seems to jump a lot around from 800mhz to 3800mhz I am assuming that is fine since it is happening so fast that bouncing between .8 and 3.8 when not in idle is fine? Before it was constantly at least 3600mhz no matter what I was doing unless I put it to sleep. EDIT: I don't understand but I had to go back into the bios this morning and redo it to stop it from running at 105% no matter what. Now I have it back bouncing between 800mhz-3800mhz which overall seems to keep my core temps 7-10 degrees lower. Also my load % seems to be overall lower even when I am using google chrome with 20 tabs open at once with twitch running as well. EDIT 2: I really don't get it, I woke it up from sleep and now I am back to the CPU running at 100-105% with at least 20-25% load no matter what I am doing even if it is idle. No apps and no processes open that I can tell are not supposed to be open.
Open the "Resource Monitor" and look at the CPU tab, you can sort by average CPU load. I have half a dozen programs open including firefox and i have 2% CPU load with 0.54% of that coming from firefox
You can also look at individual cores and see if the load is more on one of them (something like one core being maxed at a time), it's probably either forgetting something, having a software/driver issue or some malicious software. Your idle seems to be working fine now though, when it has the chance
@Myrm - 2.77 with what seems to be a 15w turbo power limit? Really sweet!
It has Hyperthreading though, which is a MASSIVE advantage in Cinebench r11.5. I had to google it but it's true - with only one core of my CPU, i think i can get very close to that (without being close to 5.2ghz!), so there is no amazing performance showing there, just very effective use of turbo and very effective use of power if it's holding 15w chip turbo power limit, which is actually somewhat plausible
The gain from HT is around 1.3x in that test~
^That's confirmed as well by the difference between i3 and g3258 being 1.299x after linear correction for frequency
![[image loading]](http://www.pcper.com/files/imagecache/article_max_width/review/2014-09-09/cb11.png)
Cinebench is also heavily affected by RAM (enough for a 4770k with good (not amazing) RAM settings to beat a 4770k with 1600c9 while being clocked 200mhz lower and for more drastic effects to happen when starved of memory latency/bandwidth) so it's hard to use for direct comparison of performance per clock, especially between a desktop and a mobile system
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@Cyro I watched the resource monitor for roughly 10 minutes with nothing opened, CPU load on all 4 cores never went below 25% and my frequency never dropped below 3600mhz. Is there anything else you could think of?
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Those 25%, are those not showing up as tied to one of the processes in Resource Monitor? If there's nothing, perhaps let MalwareBytes or similar software check your PC.
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On September 11 2014 03:07 Ropid wrote:
Those 25%, are those not showing up as tied to one of the processes in Resource Monitor? If there's nothing, perhaps let MalwareBytes or similar software check your PC.
Yup not showing up in any processes even all users. I just ran avg 2014 free and superantispyware free and found nothiing of importance. Does malwarebytes do something else those two don't? Sorry for my ignorance on this topic.
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@LimeNade: The following instructions are for Windows 8.1 and they could help you: You should check your power plan options in Windows like Cyro also suggested. Go to system settings -> Power Options or something like that -> Make sure "Balanced" is selected -> click on change energy plan options for "Balanced" -> Click on "restore standard settings."
I had a similar problem like you and for me the Samsung SSD software I had installed on my computer changed my windows power plan settings without me knowing it at first.
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On September 11 2014 02:10 Cyro wrote:
@Myrm - 2.77 with what seems to be a 15w turbo power limit? Really sweet!
Yeah, between Broadwell-Y 2C/4T and Haswell 2C/2T, it's the hyperthreading, not the IPC, that's making up the ground in clocks for the performance results. And what with RAM, as you point out, there are too many unknowns to make precise judgments there.
The point for me was that it can't possibly be sustaining around 15W for the duration of the test or it'd melt people's hands. The benchmark is long enough and the heatsink area not large enough to sustain anything like that. The tablet there is decently sized but not huge, and it doesn't have active cooling. Which means it seems like it's reaching 2.6 GHz (or maybe slightly less) on two cores + heavy hyperthreading on something closer to 4.5W, which is nuts. I wonder what voltages they're running and if they had a... specially picked chip on the display device. In a very cold room.
I guess that means 15W is more for heavy CPU + heavy GPU combined load for very brief periods of time, and it can realistically go to full turbo on both cores for stretches of time not measured in milliseconds.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On September 11 2014 03:52 Banaora wrote:
@LimeNade: The following instructions are for Windows 8.1 and they could help you: You should check your power plan options in Windows like Cyro also suggested. Go to system settings -> Power Options or something like that -> Make sure "Balanced" is selected -> click on change energy plan options for "Balanced" -> Click on "restore standard settings."
I had a similar problem like you and for me the Samsung SSD software I had installed on my computer changed my windows power plan settings without me knowing it at first.
It looks 99% like his settings are fine, but just has a virus/driver issue or something using a ton of CPU and hitting one core hard so that it can't idle sometimes.
Samsung makes its own power plan IIRC and is a pain ;p
Haswell idles well and this doesn't usually happen, even when loading four cores it dances around 2ghz~0.7vcore but cores do stick high frequency when they're being used more than others (maybe the cores are even not all at that speed, just 1-2, i'm not sure if that happens yet)
The point for me was that it can't possibly be sustaining around 15W for the duration of the test or it'd melt people's hands. The benchmark is long enough and the heatsink area not large enough to sustain anything like that.
That's only enough to heat a quarter liter of water like 1c assuming it takes a minute, they're constantly held at the very upper turbo power limit and also that i know how to math. If they have a ~20c chassis and it can heat to like 30 (i have no idea of the figures used for handhelds) then it doesn't sound very bad to me~ it has an entire copper plate and the whole tablet area to passively cool with.
If a 4770k can break 10 points comfortably at 4.5ghz, that's 5 points with half the cores~ math says you dont need to hit 2.6ghz even before ipc improvements (especially ones that come at only 2x+ the performance gain vs watt gain vs haswell) but it's totally believable to run like that in the 1.8-2.6ghz range (and that's fucking awesome)
We already have Haswell quad cores with HT that use like 40 watts at 3ghz. The power usage isn't outlandishly low after die shrinking, increasing power efficiency of the architecture on top of that and then removing half the cores. The issue of removing 10-15w like you said doesn't stand out to me as a major problem for running software for bursts of a minute or so
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On September 11 2014 04:34 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2014 03:52 Banaora wrote:
@LimeNade: The following instructions are for Windows 8.1 and they could help you: You should check your power plan options in Windows like Cyro also suggested. Go to system settings -> Power Options or something like that -> Make sure "Balanced" is selected -> click on change energy plan options for "Balanced" -> Click on "restore standard settings."
I had a similar problem like you and for me the Samsung SSD software I had installed on my computer changed my windows power plan settings without me knowing it at first. It looks 99% like his settings are fine, but just has a virus/driver issue or something using a ton of CPU and hitting one core hard so that it can't idle sometimes. Samsung makes its own power plan IIRC and is a pain ;p Haswell idles well and this doesn't usually happen, even when loading four cores it dances around 2ghz~0.7vcore but cores do stick high frequency when they're being used more than others (maybe the cores are even not all at that speed, just 1-2, i'm not sure if that happens yet)
I use Windows 7 64 i believe home premium version. On phone atm not home so cant check for sure but ill install malwarebytes later see if that can find anything. Any other anti virus spyware malware etc someone can recommend?
I did all Cyro suggested and it seemed to work fine for a little but then after i let it go idle once and went to use it again it reverted back. I checked bios again before leaving the house and the profile is still the same with everything enabled. The thing that worries me is that while at 25% load and 3600mhz when not using my comp for anything there is definitely a distinct notice in cpu temps escalating 15-20 degrees. When I had it working before with sub 10% load and 800-3600mhz my temps dropped to 35-40ish but when this isnt the case my cpu temps are between 50-60 with nothing opened.
Also as a side note everything in my computer is relatively new as in past few months and i have never messed around trying to OC even tho i know my cpu cannot be OC.
Thank you everyone for the help so far. This thread always surprises me with the knowledge everyone has and the willingness to help.
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EPT
