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On January 03 2013 09:06 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 06:55 Blisse wrote:On January 03 2013 06:33 L3gendary wrote:On January 03 2013 06:10 kaNt- wrote:On January 03 2013 06:03 L3gendary wrote:
Blues for typing.
Reds for gaming.
Browns for typing when there's people around you, probably a good choice as a middle of the road between typing and gaming.
I can tell that u will not notice the tactile bump when gaming. The browns make the most sense for touch typists in environments where you don't won't the noisy blues. You won't mind the sound of blues yourself, it's only annoying when other people type.
The double tapping is practically a non-issue because you are bottoming out when gaming anyway. It just means you have to let the key move up slightly higher than with a Red before pressing again. Thanks for the reply! I don´t feel that the Red are the best option for gaming. I mean linear switches are boring and it feels SIMILAR to the membrane keyboards. I said SIMILAR because they don´t feel quite the same. The Red are very light and linear so it´s not that different to a 10$ keyboard is terms of feedback, however the mechanical keyboard feels much more solid and smooth. Another very important thing are the keycaps, their quality have a huge impact in the keyboard feeling overall. The linear keyboards they really mean it, there is NO kind of springiness or any weird force bump whatsoever. I thought linear keyboards would feel more different to a membrane one. Right now i´m typing with a membrane keyboard and I don´t mind it. A lot of people say that after switching to mechanical they can´t type in a cheap keyboard ever but I don´t quite feel the same. With the linear switches I feel the mechanical keyboards are kinda hyped, but I trully hope tactile switches change my mind. My experience with the linear switches was very disappointing so I wanna try a tactile one. Browns seems to be good but I have to try them first, some people can´t see any differences between a Red and Browns. And I would like to try Blues and Brows to see if I like hardcore tactility or subtle feedback, both things seems to fit me well. Yeah sorry to tell you but mech keyboards have been way overhyped especially among starcraft fans and are not worth their cost in a truly utilitarian manner. But as with all "luxury" items you have to pay exponentially more to get only a slightly better product. Most brood war players played on the dirt cheap qsenn dt-35 membrane keyboards and it frankly makes no difference in-game, it all comes down to skill not what keyboard you have. If you just want a mech keyboard that's "fun" or just for the novelty of having one, or perhaps so you can justify the costs to yourself, then go with the Blues hands down. No other switch is gonna impress you if you're disappointed with the Reds. If you really can't get the Blues because there's people around you then save yourself the money and stick with the Reds. Also, people on geekhack are like audiophiles that will recommend you $300 headphones when you won't even notice the difference between it and a pair costing $150. Wow, so much hatred in this post LOL. Yeah, also, nice ninja from $50 to $150. Mechanical keyboards are much more beneficial for your hands than membrane. I don't know how many times I've been emphasizing this, but the main benefit of mechanical switches is consistency. With membrane keyboards, as you use the keys more and more, you'll notice that some keys feel stiffer than other keys. This is because membrane keyboards degrade over time. The membrane gets weaker, so it's easier to push down. Try a key like Pause on a membrane, versus A. Huge difference. Saving money from not replacing keyboards as often is secondary. And everyone knows you can't possibly tell if you're benefiting from switching to mechanical (except maybe faster actuation from Reds). Your point about utility stands, ish. Also, you guys are hugely stuck in a state of constant brand association. i.e. Filco good, Razer crap. I don't know where you felt the hatred from, I have 2 mech keyboards myself including a filco brown and have tried all sorts of switches and keyboards that friends have and at stores. 6gv2, das, blackwidow etc. I don't think I would ever get a membrane keyboard again but that's cause the price of mechs isn't an issue for me. Only thing i have a hatred for is the over hyping and over pricing of gaming products because some pros use them (mostly because they have to because it's in their contract). Not just keyboards but mice and headphones as well, razer and steelseries are the worst offenders. That's why you get gamers like our friend kant- here with high expectations that are ultimately disappointed, or worse, people that are deluded because they don't want to accept that they paid too much for what they were led to believe was the holy grail of gaming. I didn't edit the price btw you must've mis-read the first time but it was an arbitrary value anyway. Talking about degradation of membrane keyboards, yeah it's an issue but that only develops after 1-2 years of use. You can get like 10 dt-35 for the price of a mech. You don't actually notice the keys getting stiffer over time because it's gradual so it won't affect your abilities at all. You only notice the difference when you get a new keyboard and then it takes like 2 days to adjust. No matter how you look at it, the membrane keyboard is the cheaper route over time.
I can agree with you that Razer is a big offender. 10 dt-35 seems a bit too much for one mech. my CMstorm quick fire was 50. I'm looking at ebay and a DT-35 costs about 25 dollars, not including the shipping. I understand that a DT-35 is cheaper and there is nothing wrong with that I think the price in a mechanical is justified by:
1) The part of your computer you will touch the most, therefore being comfortable using your mouse and keyboard should be a priorty. I can't tell you how many times I've had to do something boring like typing a report and I got excited (because i'm a freak, jk!) because I would use my mechanical keyboard to type it up and not the keyboard on my laptop.
2) Most mechanical keyboards are not water resistant.
My first point is what convinced me to purchase a mechanical keyboard. A mechanical keyboard may not prevent me from getting carpel tunnel, but I know it will make typing/gaming comfortable the next time I use it.
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My 7G seemed fried after spilling coffee on it. Despite acting quickly, removing and wiping any key, it was not functioning the next day - at all. I borrowed my fathers membrane keyboard while contemplating what to do. Tested the 7G months later, and it worked like a dream.
First keyboard that has ever revived on me, and I have lost a great deal of keyboard this way, either due to me, or someone else.
I bought Steelseries to support danish industry, and I am very happy with their products.
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On January 03 2013 09:27 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 09:06 L3gendary wrote:On January 03 2013 06:55 Blisse wrote:On January 03 2013 06:33 L3gendary wrote:On January 03 2013 06:10 kaNt- wrote:On January 03 2013 06:03 L3gendary wrote:
Blues for typing.
Reds for gaming.
Browns for typing when there's people around you, probably a good choice as a middle of the road between typing and gaming.
I can tell that u will not notice the tactile bump when gaming. The browns make the most sense for touch typists in environments where you don't won't the noisy blues. You won't mind the sound of blues yourself, it's only annoying when other people type.
The double tapping is practically a non-issue because you are bottoming out when gaming anyway. It just means you have to let the key move up slightly higher than with a Red before pressing again. Thanks for the reply! I don´t feel that the Red are the best option for gaming. I mean linear switches are boring and it feels SIMILAR to the membrane keyboards. I said SIMILAR because they don´t feel quite the same. The Red are very light and linear so it´s not that different to a 10$ keyboard is terms of feedback, however the mechanical keyboard feels much more solid and smooth. Another very important thing are the keycaps, their quality have a huge impact in the keyboard feeling overall. The linear keyboards they really mean it, there is NO kind of springiness or any weird force bump whatsoever. I thought linear keyboards would feel more different to a membrane one. Right now i´m typing with a membrane keyboard and I don´t mind it. A lot of people say that after switching to mechanical they can´t type in a cheap keyboard ever but I don´t quite feel the same. With the linear switches I feel the mechanical keyboards are kinda hyped, but I trully hope tactile switches change my mind. My experience with the linear switches was very disappointing so I wanna try a tactile one. Browns seems to be good but I have to try them first, some people can´t see any differences between a Red and Browns. And I would like to try Blues and Brows to see if I like hardcore tactility or subtle feedback, both things seems to fit me well. Yeah sorry to tell you but mech keyboards have been way overhyped especially among starcraft fans and are not worth their cost in a truly utilitarian manner. But as with all "luxury" items you have to pay exponentially more to get only a slightly better product. Most brood war players played on the dirt cheap qsenn dt-35 membrane keyboards and it frankly makes no difference in-game, it all comes down to skill not what keyboard you have. If you just want a mech keyboard that's "fun" or just for the novelty of having one, or perhaps so you can justify the costs to yourself, then go with the Blues hands down. No other switch is gonna impress you if you're disappointed with the Reds. If you really can't get the Blues because there's people around you then save yourself the money and stick with the Reds. Also, people on geekhack are like audiophiles that will recommend you $300 headphones when you won't even notice the difference between it and a pair costing $150. Wow, so much hatred in this post LOL. Yeah, also, nice ninja from $50 to $150. Mechanical keyboards are much more beneficial for your hands than membrane. I don't know how many times I've been emphasizing this, but the main benefit of mechanical switches is consistency. With membrane keyboards, as you use the keys more and more, you'll notice that some keys feel stiffer than other keys. This is because membrane keyboards degrade over time. The membrane gets weaker, so it's easier to push down. Try a key like Pause on a membrane, versus A. Huge difference. Saving money from not replacing keyboards as often is secondary. And everyone knows you can't possibly tell if you're benefiting from switching to mechanical (except maybe faster actuation from Reds). Your point about utility stands, ish. Also, you guys are hugely stuck in a state of constant brand association. i.e. Filco good, Razer crap. I don't know where you felt the hatred from, I have 2 mech keyboards myself including a filco brown and have tried all sorts of switches and keyboards that friends have and at stores. 6gv2, das, blackwidow etc. I don't think I would ever get a membrane keyboard again but that's cause the price of mechs isn't an issue for me. Only thing i have a hatred for is the over hyping and over pricing of gaming products because some pros use them (mostly because they have to because it's in their contract). Not just keyboards but mice and headphones as well, razer and steelseries are the worst offenders. That's why you get gamers like our friend kant- here with high expectations that are ultimately disappointed, or worse, people that are deluded because they don't want to accept that they paid too much for what they were led to believe was the holy grail of gaming. I didn't edit the price btw you must've mis-read the first time but it was an arbitrary value anyway. Talking about degradation of membrane keyboards, yeah it's an issue but that only develops after 1-2 years of use. You can get like 10 dt-35 for the price of a mech. You don't actually notice the keys getting stiffer over time because it's gradual so it won't affect your abilities at all. You only notice the difference when you get a new keyboard and then it takes like 2 days to adjust. No matter how you look at it, the membrane keyboard is the cheaper route over time. You don't notice the hatred because you cut out the part where I accused you of speaking out of your ass about audiophile headphones. Gaming headphones are not audiophile, so don't use it as a catch-all. And speaking generally about these products is ridiculously stupid, especially providing an arbitrary value. Don't use it as an argument unless you know wtf you're talking about.
Oh so it's you that has the hatred. Maybe you should calm down then. I was using the headphones as an example and I didn't bother replying to that because this is a discussion about keyboards not headphones. Also, talk about speaking generally when all you did was rattle off a few price tags without specifying what headphones models you were talking about and what tangible differences there are to justify an $800 price tag. My ath-m50's are doing just fine and i've tried a lot of different models.
Regarding keyboards, I would always recommend mechanicals. I think Leopold keyboards have a good combination of build quality, price, and minimalistic layout. But I think it's important to offer the people coming in here asking for advice some perspective on what they are really getting out of the extra ~$100 that they are considering putting down on one of these compared to a decent membrane keyboard.
On January 03 2013 09:33 m1rk3 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 09:06 L3gendary wrote:On January 03 2013 06:55 Blisse wrote:On January 03 2013 06:33 L3gendary wrote:On January 03 2013 06:10 kaNt- wrote:On January 03 2013 06:03 L3gendary wrote:
Blues for typing.
Reds for gaming.
Browns for typing when there's people around you, probably a good choice as a middle of the road between typing and gaming.
I can tell that u will not notice the tactile bump when gaming. The browns make the most sense for touch typists in environments where you don't won't the noisy blues. You won't mind the sound of blues yourself, it's only annoying when other people type.
The double tapping is practically a non-issue because you are bottoming out when gaming anyway. It just means you have to let the key move up slightly higher than with a Red before pressing again. Thanks for the reply! I don´t feel that the Red are the best option for gaming. I mean linear switches are boring and it feels SIMILAR to the membrane keyboards. I said SIMILAR because they don´t feel quite the same. The Red are very light and linear so it´s not that different to a 10$ keyboard is terms of feedback, however the mechanical keyboard feels much more solid and smooth. Another very important thing are the keycaps, their quality have a huge impact in the keyboard feeling overall. The linear keyboards they really mean it, there is NO kind of springiness or any weird force bump whatsoever. I thought linear keyboards would feel more different to a membrane one. Right now i´m typing with a membrane keyboard and I don´t mind it. A lot of people say that after switching to mechanical they can´t type in a cheap keyboard ever but I don´t quite feel the same. With the linear switches I feel the mechanical keyboards are kinda hyped, but I trully hope tactile switches change my mind. My experience with the linear switches was very disappointing so I wanna try a tactile one. Browns seems to be good but I have to try them first, some people can´t see any differences between a Red and Browns. And I would like to try Blues and Brows to see if I like hardcore tactility or subtle feedback, both things seems to fit me well. Yeah sorry to tell you but mech keyboards have been way overhyped especially among starcraft fans and are not worth their cost in a truly utilitarian manner. But as with all "luxury" items you have to pay exponentially more to get only a slightly better product. Most brood war players played on the dirt cheap qsenn dt-35 membrane keyboards and it frankly makes no difference in-game, it all comes down to skill not what keyboard you have. If you just want a mech keyboard that's "fun" or just for the novelty of having one, or perhaps so you can justify the costs to yourself, then go with the Blues hands down. No other switch is gonna impress you if you're disappointed with the Reds. If you really can't get the Blues because there's people around you then save yourself the money and stick with the Reds. Also, people on geekhack are like audiophiles that will recommend you $300 headphones when you won't even notice the difference between it and a pair costing $150. Wow, so much hatred in this post LOL. Yeah, also, nice ninja from $50 to $150. Mechanical keyboards are much more beneficial for your hands than membrane. I don't know how many times I've been emphasizing this, but the main benefit of mechanical switches is consistency. With membrane keyboards, as you use the keys more and more, you'll notice that some keys feel stiffer than other keys. This is because membrane keyboards degrade over time. The membrane gets weaker, so it's easier to push down. Try a key like Pause on a membrane, versus A. Huge difference. Saving money from not replacing keyboards as often is secondary. And everyone knows you can't possibly tell if you're benefiting from switching to mechanical (except maybe faster actuation from Reds). Your point about utility stands, ish. Also, you guys are hugely stuck in a state of constant brand association. i.e. Filco good, Razer crap. I don't know where you felt the hatred from, I have 2 mech keyboards myself including a filco brown and have tried all sorts of switches and keyboards that friends have and at stores. 6gv2, das, blackwidow etc. I don't think I would ever get a membrane keyboard again but that's cause the price of mechs isn't an issue for me. Only thing i have a hatred for is the over hyping and over pricing of gaming products because some pros use them (mostly because they have to because it's in their contract). Not just keyboards but mice and headphones as well, razer and steelseries are the worst offenders. That's why you get gamers like our friend kant- here with high expectations that are ultimately disappointed, or worse, people that are deluded because they don't want to accept that they paid too much for what they were led to believe was the holy grail of gaming. I didn't edit the price btw you must've mis-read the first time but it was an arbitrary value anyway. Talking about degradation of membrane keyboards, yeah it's an issue but that only develops after 1-2 years of use. You can get like 10 dt-35 for the price of a mech. You don't actually notice the keys getting stiffer over time because it's gradual so it won't affect your abilities at all. You only notice the difference when you get a new keyboard and then it takes like 2 days to adjust. No matter how you look at it, the membrane keyboard is the cheaper route over time. I can agree with you that Razer is a big offender. 10 dt-35 seems a bit too much for one mech. my CMstorm quick fire was 50. I'm looking at ebay and a DT-35 costs about 25 dollars, not including the shipping. I understand that a DT-35 is cheaper and there is nothing wrong with that I think the price in a mechanical is justified by:
I actually got that same mech keyboard on sale too. With rebates $40  . The dt-35 only costs so much cus a) It's shipped from korea. b) Mark up due to large demand by starcraft fans. The keyboard is under $10 in korea.
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On January 03 2013 09:23 Lunatics wrote:
Thanks m1rk3 for you response I appreciate it. I wasn't even aware I could just hold the unit key down with shift and spawn them heh. The CM storm is nice but sadly doesn't have a usb port but I will keep looking.
Since you have used both red and blue, which do you prefer (for SC2 specifically), do you think the brown might be a good one to consider as an in between for red and blue? Red comes to mind as my first choice however I'm afraid it might be TOO easy to press. Part of me kind of wants the tactile feel but if the reds are better/just as good without as much noise I may just go with those.
Edit: That version of the storm definitely looks like it fits my needs better. The size of the other one is appealing and choice of light colors however that one has everything I need I will definitely be bookmarking that. The Razer was one of my first options I looked into until reading about the problems most people seem to have with it.
Also is the 2013 Black Widow any improvement over the previous or is it too soon to tell if it's going to have the same issues or not?
Red's just take time getting used too. When I first started using my mechanical with reds it felt way to light. After a year of use, it feels just right. I switch between my blues and reds, but I mainly use my reds. The reason I switch between the two is because the blues have such a satisfying click (I grew up with a typewriter and no i'm not as old as you might think). it might take you 3 days, maybe even a week to adjust. The key thing is to use it with your daily activities and like anything else, practice makes perfect.
My first mechanical was a razer blackwidow (regular version). I had no problems that some people described. It's still working and it's 1 and a half years old. The 2013 looks nice, Try to get it on sale, because it's price point hovers around keyboards that have "better" build quality. I would not mind buying the 2013, but if I were to buy it today, it would have to be on sale.
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On January 03 2013 09:42 Dracolich70 wrote:
My 7G seemed fried after spilling coffee on it. Despite acting quickly, removing and wiping any key, it was not functioning the next day - at all. I borrowed my fathers membrane keyboard while contemplating what to do. Tested the 7G months later, and it worked like a dream.
First keyboard that has ever revived on me, and I have lost a great deal of keyboard this way, either due to me, or someone else.
I bought Steelseries to support danish industry, and I am very happy with their products.
Next time, don't use the keyboard the next day after spilling liquid on it. Just give it time and let it dry, once you pulled it out. I.e. Dry it for a week. or put it in a bag of rice for 2 days and remove any excess liquid before leaving to dry.
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On January 03 2013 09:44 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 09:27 Blisse wrote:On January 03 2013 09:06 L3gendary wrote:On January 03 2013 06:55 Blisse wrote:On January 03 2013 06:33 L3gendary wrote:On January 03 2013 06:10 kaNt- wrote:On January 03 2013 06:03 L3gendary wrote:
Blues for typing.
Reds for gaming.
Browns for typing when there's people around you, probably a good choice as a middle of the road between typing and gaming.
I can tell that u will not notice the tactile bump when gaming. The browns make the most sense for touch typists in environments where you don't won't the noisy blues. You won't mind the sound of blues yourself, it's only annoying when other people type.
The double tapping is practically a non-issue because you are bottoming out when gaming anyway. It just means you have to let the key move up slightly higher than with a Red before pressing again. Thanks for the reply! I don´t feel that the Red are the best option for gaming. I mean linear switches are boring and it feels SIMILAR to the membrane keyboards. I said SIMILAR because they don´t feel quite the same. The Red are very light and linear so it´s not that different to a 10$ keyboard is terms of feedback, however the mechanical keyboard feels much more solid and smooth. Another very important thing are the keycaps, their quality have a huge impact in the keyboard feeling overall. The linear keyboards they really mean it, there is NO kind of springiness or any weird force bump whatsoever. I thought linear keyboards would feel more different to a membrane one. Right now i´m typing with a membrane keyboard and I don´t mind it. A lot of people say that after switching to mechanical they can´t type in a cheap keyboard ever but I don´t quite feel the same. With the linear switches I feel the mechanical keyboards are kinda hyped, but I trully hope tactile switches change my mind. My experience with the linear switches was very disappointing so I wanna try a tactile one. Browns seems to be good but I have to try them first, some people can´t see any differences between a Red and Browns. And I would like to try Blues and Brows to see if I like hardcore tactility or subtle feedback, both things seems to fit me well. Yeah sorry to tell you but mech keyboards have been way overhyped especially among starcraft fans and are not worth their cost in a truly utilitarian manner. But as with all "luxury" items you have to pay exponentially more to get only a slightly better product. Most brood war players played on the dirt cheap qsenn dt-35 membrane keyboards and it frankly makes no difference in-game, it all comes down to skill not what keyboard you have. If you just want a mech keyboard that's "fun" or just for the novelty of having one, or perhaps so you can justify the costs to yourself, then go with the Blues hands down. No other switch is gonna impress you if you're disappointed with the Reds. If you really can't get the Blues because there's people around you then save yourself the money and stick with the Reds. Also, people on geekhack are like audiophiles that will recommend you $300 headphones when you won't even notice the difference between it and a pair costing $150. Wow, so much hatred in this post LOL. Yeah, also, nice ninja from $50 to $150. Mechanical keyboards are much more beneficial for your hands than membrane. I don't know how many times I've been emphasizing this, but the main benefit of mechanical switches is consistency. With membrane keyboards, as you use the keys more and more, you'll notice that some keys feel stiffer than other keys. This is because membrane keyboards degrade over time. The membrane gets weaker, so it's easier to push down. Try a key like Pause on a membrane, versus A. Huge difference. Saving money from not replacing keyboards as often is secondary. And everyone knows you can't possibly tell if you're benefiting from switching to mechanical (except maybe faster actuation from Reds). Your point about utility stands, ish. Also, you guys are hugely stuck in a state of constant brand association. i.e. Filco good, Razer crap. I don't know where you felt the hatred from, I have 2 mech keyboards myself including a filco brown and have tried all sorts of switches and keyboards that friends have and at stores. 6gv2, das, blackwidow etc. I don't think I would ever get a membrane keyboard again but that's cause the price of mechs isn't an issue for me. Only thing i have a hatred for is the over hyping and over pricing of gaming products because some pros use them (mostly because they have to because it's in their contract). Not just keyboards but mice and headphones as well, razer and steelseries are the worst offenders. That's why you get gamers like our friend kant- here with high expectations that are ultimately disappointed, or worse, people that are deluded because they don't want to accept that they paid too much for what they were led to believe was the holy grail of gaming. I didn't edit the price btw you must've mis-read the first time but it was an arbitrary value anyway. Talking about degradation of membrane keyboards, yeah it's an issue but that only develops after 1-2 years of use. You can get like 10 dt-35 for the price of a mech. You don't actually notice the keys getting stiffer over time because it's gradual so it won't affect your abilities at all. You only notice the difference when you get a new keyboard and then it takes like 2 days to adjust. No matter how you look at it, the membrane keyboard is the cheaper route over time. You don't notice the hatred because you cut out the part where I accused you of speaking out of your ass about audiophile headphones. Gaming headphones are not audiophile, so don't use it as a catch-all. And speaking generally about these products is ridiculously stupid, especially providing an arbitrary value. Don't use it as an argument unless you know wtf you're talking about. Oh so it's you that has the hatred. Maybe you should calm down then. I was using the headphones as an example and I didn't bother replying to that because this is a discussion about keyboards not headphones. Also, talk about speaking generally when all you did was rattle off a few price tags without specifying what headphones models you were talking about and what tangible differences there are to justify an $800 price tag. My ath-m50's are doing just fine and i've tried a lot of different models. Regarding keyboards, I would always recommend mechanicals. I think Leopold keyboards have a good combination of build quality, price, and minimalistic layout. But I think it's important to offer the people coming in here asking for advice some perspective on what they are really getting out of the extra ~$100 that they are considering putting down on one of these compared to a decent membrane keyboard. Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 09:33 m1rk3 wrote:On January 03 2013 09:06 L3gendary wrote:On January 03 2013 06:55 Blisse wrote:On January 03 2013 06:33 L3gendary wrote:On January 03 2013 06:10 kaNt- wrote:On January 03 2013 06:03 L3gendary wrote:
Blues for typing.
Reds for gaming.
Browns for typing when there's people around you, probably a good choice as a middle of the road between typing and gaming.
I can tell that u will not notice the tactile bump when gaming. The browns make the most sense for touch typists in environments where you don't won't the noisy blues. You won't mind the sound of blues yourself, it's only annoying when other people type.
The double tapping is practically a non-issue because you are bottoming out when gaming anyway. It just means you have to let the key move up slightly higher than with a Red before pressing again. Thanks for the reply! I don´t feel that the Red are the best option for gaming. I mean linear switches are boring and it feels SIMILAR to the membrane keyboards. I said SIMILAR because they don´t feel quite the same. The Red are very light and linear so it´s not that different to a 10$ keyboard is terms of feedback, however the mechanical keyboard feels much more solid and smooth. Another very important thing are the keycaps, their quality have a huge impact in the keyboard feeling overall. The linear keyboards they really mean it, there is NO kind of springiness or any weird force bump whatsoever. I thought linear keyboards would feel more different to a membrane one. Right now i´m typing with a membrane keyboard and I don´t mind it. A lot of people say that after switching to mechanical they can´t type in a cheap keyboard ever but I don´t quite feel the same. With the linear switches I feel the mechanical keyboards are kinda hyped, but I trully hope tactile switches change my mind. My experience with the linear switches was very disappointing so I wanna try a tactile one. Browns seems to be good but I have to try them first, some people can´t see any differences between a Red and Browns. And I would like to try Blues and Brows to see if I like hardcore tactility or subtle feedback, both things seems to fit me well. Yeah sorry to tell you but mech keyboards have been way overhyped especially among starcraft fans and are not worth their cost in a truly utilitarian manner. But as with all "luxury" items you have to pay exponentially more to get only a slightly better product. Most brood war players played on the dirt cheap qsenn dt-35 membrane keyboards and it frankly makes no difference in-game, it all comes down to skill not what keyboard you have. If you just want a mech keyboard that's "fun" or just for the novelty of having one, or perhaps so you can justify the costs to yourself, then go with the Blues hands down. No other switch is gonna impress you if you're disappointed with the Reds. If you really can't get the Blues because there's people around you then save yourself the money and stick with the Reds. Also, people on geekhack are like audiophiles that will recommend you $300 headphones when you won't even notice the difference between it and a pair costing $150. Wow, so much hatred in this post LOL. Yeah, also, nice ninja from $50 to $150. Mechanical keyboards are much more beneficial for your hands than membrane. I don't know how many times I've been emphasizing this, but the main benefit of mechanical switches is consistency. With membrane keyboards, as you use the keys more and more, you'll notice that some keys feel stiffer than other keys. This is because membrane keyboards degrade over time. The membrane gets weaker, so it's easier to push down. Try a key like Pause on a membrane, versus A. Huge difference. Saving money from not replacing keyboards as often is secondary. And everyone knows you can't possibly tell if you're benefiting from switching to mechanical (except maybe faster actuation from Reds). Your point about utility stands, ish. Also, you guys are hugely stuck in a state of constant brand association. i.e. Filco good, Razer crap. I don't know where you felt the hatred from, I have 2 mech keyboards myself including a filco brown and have tried all sorts of switches and keyboards that friends have and at stores. 6gv2, das, blackwidow etc. I don't think I would ever get a membrane keyboard again but that's cause the price of mechs isn't an issue for me. Only thing i have a hatred for is the over hyping and over pricing of gaming products because some pros use them (mostly because they have to because it's in their contract). Not just keyboards but mice and headphones as well, razer and steelseries are the worst offenders. That's why you get gamers like our friend kant- here with high expectations that are ultimately disappointed, or worse, people that are deluded because they don't want to accept that they paid too much for what they were led to believe was the holy grail of gaming. I didn't edit the price btw you must've mis-read the first time but it was an arbitrary value anyway. Talking about degradation of membrane keyboards, yeah it's an issue but that only develops after 1-2 years of use. You can get like 10 dt-35 for the price of a mech. You don't actually notice the keys getting stiffer over time because it's gradual so it won't affect your abilities at all. You only notice the difference when you get a new keyboard and then it takes like 2 days to adjust. No matter how you look at it, the membrane keyboard is the cheaper route over time. I can agree with you that Razer is a big offender. 10 dt-35 seems a bit too much for one mech. my CMstorm quick fire was 50. I'm looking at ebay and a DT-35 costs about 25 dollars, not including the shipping. I understand that a DT-35 is cheaper and there is nothing wrong with that I think the price in a mechanical is justified by: I actually got that same mech keyboard on sale too. With rebates $40 . The dt-35 only costs so much cus a) It's shipped from korea. b) Mark up due to large demand by starcraft fans. The keyboard is under $10 in korea.
Then that means I can get an extra DT-35 ;P. I would definitely want to have one because it's novelty item in the starcraft world XD.
Oh and that thing you and Blisse are arguing about, It's on the top of this page.
+ Show Spoiler +People (gamers) use mechanicals because they are so comfortable to use.
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On January 03 2013 09:23 Lunatics wrote:
Thanks m1rk3 for you response I appreciate it. I wasn't even aware I could just hold the unit key down with shift and spawn them heh. The CM storm is nice but sadly doesn't have a usb port but I will keep looking.
Since you have used both red and blue, which do you prefer (for SC2 specifically), do you think the brown might be a good one to consider as an in between for red and blue? Red comes to mind as my first choice however I'm afraid it might be TOO easy to press. Part of me kind of wants the tactile feel but if the reds are better/just as good without as much noise I may just go with those.
Edit: That version of the storm definitely looks like it fits my needs better. The size of the other one is appealing and choice of light colors however that one has everything I need I will definitely be bookmarking that. The Razer was one of my first options I looked into until reading about the problems most people seem to have with it.
Also is the 2013 Black Widow any improvement over the previous or is it too soon to tell if it's going to have the same issues or not?
Honestly, I would recommend that CM keyboard over Blackwidow unless you really want the macro keys of BW, and you'll see that most people on Geekhack will tell you the same. The BW Ultimate 2013 that you're looking at is like 20 dollars more expensive anyway, so I really can't advocate getting it.
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On January 03 2013 09:44 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 09:27 Blisse wrote:On January 03 2013 09:06 L3gendary wrote:On January 03 2013 06:55 Blisse wrote:On January 03 2013 06:33 L3gendary wrote:On January 03 2013 06:10 kaNt- wrote:On January 03 2013 06:03 L3gendary wrote:
Blues for typing.
Reds for gaming.
Browns for typing when there's people around you, probably a good choice as a middle of the road between typing and gaming.
I can tell that u will not notice the tactile bump when gaming. The browns make the most sense for touch typists in environments where you don't won't the noisy blues. You won't mind the sound of blues yourself, it's only annoying when other people type.
The double tapping is practically a non-issue because you are bottoming out when gaming anyway. It just means you have to let the key move up slightly higher than with a Red before pressing again. Thanks for the reply! I don´t feel that the Red are the best option for gaming. I mean linear switches are boring and it feels SIMILAR to the membrane keyboards. I said SIMILAR because they don´t feel quite the same. The Red are very light and linear so it´s not that different to a 10$ keyboard is terms of feedback, however the mechanical keyboard feels much more solid and smooth. Another very important thing are the keycaps, their quality have a huge impact in the keyboard feeling overall. The linear keyboards they really mean it, there is NO kind of springiness or any weird force bump whatsoever. I thought linear keyboards would feel more different to a membrane one. Right now i´m typing with a membrane keyboard and I don´t mind it. A lot of people say that after switching to mechanical they can´t type in a cheap keyboard ever but I don´t quite feel the same. With the linear switches I feel the mechanical keyboards are kinda hyped, but I trully hope tactile switches change my mind. My experience with the linear switches was very disappointing so I wanna try a tactile one. Browns seems to be good but I have to try them first, some people can´t see any differences between a Red and Browns. And I would like to try Blues and Brows to see if I like hardcore tactility or subtle feedback, both things seems to fit me well. Yeah sorry to tell you but mech keyboards have been way overhyped especially among starcraft fans and are not worth their cost in a truly utilitarian manner. But as with all "luxury" items you have to pay exponentially more to get only a slightly better product. Most brood war players played on the dirt cheap qsenn dt-35 membrane keyboards and it frankly makes no difference in-game, it all comes down to skill not what keyboard you have. If you just want a mech keyboard that's "fun" or just for the novelty of having one, or perhaps so you can justify the costs to yourself, then go with the Blues hands down. No other switch is gonna impress you if you're disappointed with the Reds. If you really can't get the Blues because there's people around you then save yourself the money and stick with the Reds. Also, people on geekhack are like audiophiles that will recommend you $300 headphones when you won't even notice the difference between it and a pair costing $150. Wow, so much hatred in this post LOL. Yeah, also, nice ninja from $50 to $150. Mechanical keyboards are much more beneficial for your hands than membrane. I don't know how many times I've been emphasizing this, but the main benefit of mechanical switches is consistency. With membrane keyboards, as you use the keys more and more, you'll notice that some keys feel stiffer than other keys. This is because membrane keyboards degrade over time. The membrane gets weaker, so it's easier to push down. Try a key like Pause on a membrane, versus A. Huge difference. Saving money from not replacing keyboards as often is secondary. And everyone knows you can't possibly tell if you're benefiting from switching to mechanical (except maybe faster actuation from Reds). Your point about utility stands, ish. Also, you guys are hugely stuck in a state of constant brand association. i.e. Filco good, Razer crap. I don't know where you felt the hatred from, I have 2 mech keyboards myself including a filco brown and have tried all sorts of switches and keyboards that friends have and at stores. 6gv2, das, blackwidow etc. I don't think I would ever get a membrane keyboard again but that's cause the price of mechs isn't an issue for me. Only thing i have a hatred for is the over hyping and over pricing of gaming products because some pros use them (mostly because they have to because it's in their contract). Not just keyboards but mice and headphones as well, razer and steelseries are the worst offenders. That's why you get gamers like our friend kant- here with high expectations that are ultimately disappointed, or worse, people that are deluded because they don't want to accept that they paid too much for what they were led to believe was the holy grail of gaming. I didn't edit the price btw you must've mis-read the first time but it was an arbitrary value anyway. Talking about degradation of membrane keyboards, yeah it's an issue but that only develops after 1-2 years of use. You can get like 10 dt-35 for the price of a mech. You don't actually notice the keys getting stiffer over time because it's gradual so it won't affect your abilities at all. You only notice the difference when you get a new keyboard and then it takes like 2 days to adjust. No matter how you look at it, the membrane keyboard is the cheaper route over time. You don't notice the hatred because you cut out the part where I accused you of speaking out of your ass about audiophile headphones. Gaming headphones are not audiophile, so don't use it as a catch-all. And speaking generally about these products is ridiculously stupid, especially providing an arbitrary value. Don't use it as an argument unless you know wtf you're talking about. Oh so it's you that has the hatred. Maybe you should calm down then. I was using the headphones as an example and I didn't bother replying to that because this is a discussion about keyboards not headphones. Also, talk about speaking generally when all you did was rattle off a few price tags without specifying what headphones models you were talking about and what tangible differences there are to justify an $800 price tag. My ath-m50's are doing just fine and i've tried a lot of different models. Regarding keyboards, I would always recommend mechanicals. I think Leopold keyboards have a good combination of build quality, price, and minimalistic layout. But I think it's important to offer the people coming in here asking for advice some perspective on what they are really getting out of the extra ~$100 that they are considering putting down on one of these compared to a decent membrane keyboard.
No, don't use it as an example at all, because it's not a valid example. I don't get why you dragged that into the discussion when you have no clue what you're talking about in that area. I'm perfectly calm. I just don't like when people like you talk out of their ass about things. If you're talking about keyboards, talk about keyboards then, and don't drag examples in that don't work. My prices represent a tangible difference between different price tiers, which is proving the point that there exists a difference, however slim, between price tiers without dragging a literal headphone into the discussion. Understand now? If you're comparing poorly priced $300 headphones with well priced $150 headphones, why even bother making that comparison. No one worth their salt actively recommends poorly priced headphones. All the values in my price comparisons were street.
While gaming mice and keyboards are overpriced, they're not as overpriced as you put it out to be. As in, they fit well in their respective price zones. Headphones are massively overpriced for their quality, but that's a different discussion because of the subjectivity of sound.
As for kant's situation, that is the reason I do not actively recommend Blacks or Reds unless the user is certain in their preference. In my opinion, the feel of these keys don't justify the cost, so I won't promote it.
I do not disagree that you should make every consumer aware of what they are purchasing. But I disagree in your portrayal of these luxury items as overhype and overpriced commodities. If the person cannot feel a difference, that is a personal opinion, because there is a difference, and it is well documented.
@m1rk3, I was arguing with him about using headphones as reference, him dismissing mechanicals as simply "fun" alternatives, and hype. Apparently it's turned to consumerism.
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On January 03 2013 09:49 m1rk3 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 09:42 Dracolich70 wrote:
My 7G seemed fried after spilling coffee on it. Despite acting quickly, removing and wiping any key, it was not functioning the next day - at all. I borrowed my fathers membrane keyboard while contemplating what to do. Tested the 7G months later, and it worked like a dream.
First keyboard that has ever revived on me, and I have lost a great deal of keyboard this way, either due to me, or someone else.
I bought Steelseries to support danish industry, and I am very happy with their products. Next time, don't use the keyboard the next day after spilling liquid on it. Just give it time and let it dry, once you pulled it out. I.e. Dry it for a week. or put it in a bag of rice for 2 days and remove any excess liquid before leaving to dry.
Full Spill Guide here:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/keyboardmaintenanceguides
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does anyone recommend any other cherry red tenkeyless keyboards
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I think I am going to go with the CM Trigger if I can find one with red switches in it for under $130-140. I was hoping for a choice between colors, but I need to replace some fans in my computer anyway so maybe I'll just try and get some bright red fans to match my new keyboard when I get it.
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i have the noppoo mini in brown. pretty happy with it. got mine for $89 from a seller on ebay last year. the F keys are really close to the rest of the keys unlike other keyboards so it is a blessing. keyboard overall is kind of cramped though if you are moving from a full size, but that's really just how tenkeyless is.
::edit:: also forgot to mention how different the POM keycaps are. they have a slippery surface that i definitely underestimated when purchasing. it kind of feels like the non sticky side of scotch tape. not a bad feel but sometimes when reaching for keys you can feel your finger sliding across the top as you press the key.
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On January 03 2013 11:19 Terranist wrote:i have the noppoo mini in brown. pretty happy with it. got mine for $89 from a seller on ebay last year. the F keys are really close to the rest of the keys unlike other keyboards so it is a blessing. keyboard overall is kind of cramped though if you are moving from a full size, but that's really just how tenkeyless is. ::edit:: also forgot to mention how different the POM keycaps are. they have a slippery surface that i definitely underestimated when purchasing. it kind of feels like the non sticky side of scotch tape. not a bad feel but sometimes when reaching for keys you can feel your finger sliding across the top as you press the key.
Should've gotten PBT. I have the same in PBT, and it feels really nice, and hasn't gotten shiny ... yet :p
I really love the layout of the Choc Mini. The Delete key is in an amazing position.
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On January 03 2013 06:33 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 06:10 kaNt- wrote:On January 03 2013 06:03 L3gendary wrote:
Blues for typing.
Reds for gaming.
Browns for typing when there's people around you, probably a good choice as a middle of the road between typing and gaming.
I can tell that u will not notice the tactile bump when gaming. The browns make the most sense for touch typists in environments where you don't won't the noisy blues. You won't mind the sound of blues yourself, it's only annoying when other people type.
The double tapping is practically a non-issue because you are bottoming out when gaming anyway. It just means you have to let the key move up slightly higher than with a Red before pressing again. Thanks for the reply! I don´t feel that the Red are the best option for gaming. I mean linear switches are boring and it feels SIMILAR to the membrane keyboards. I said SIMILAR because they don´t feel quite the same. The Red are very light and linear so it´s not that different to a 10$ keyboard is terms of feedback, however the mechanical keyboard feels much more solid and smooth. Another very important thing are the keycaps, their quality have a huge impact in the keyboard feeling overall. The linear keyboards they really mean it, there is NO kind of springiness or any weird force bump whatsoever. I thought linear keyboards would feel more different to a membrane one. Right now i´m typing with a membrane keyboard and I don´t mind it. A lot of people say that after switching to mechanical they can´t type in a cheap keyboard ever but I don´t quite feel the same. With the linear switches I feel the mechanical keyboards are kinda hyped, but I trully hope tactile switches change my mind. My experience with the linear switches was very disappointing so I wanna try a tactile one. Browns seems to be good but I have to try them first, some people can´t see any differences between a Red and Browns. And I would like to try Blues and Brows to see if I like hardcore tactility or subtle feedback, both things seems to fit me well. Yeah sorry to tell you but mech keyboards have been way overhyped especially among starcraft fans and are not worth their cost in a truly utilitarian manner. But as with all "luxury" items you have to pay exponentially more to get only a slightly better product. Most brood war players played on the dirt cheap qsenn dt-35 membrane keyboards and it frankly makes no difference in-game, it all comes down to skill not what keyboard you have. If you just want a mech keyboard that's "fun" or just for the novelty of having one, or perhaps so you can justify the costs to yourself, then go with the Blues hands down. No other switch is gonna impress you if you're disappointed with the Reds. If you really can't get the Blues because there's people around you then save yourself the money and stick with the Reds. Also, people on geekhack are like audiophiles that will recommend you $300 headphones when you won't even notice the difference between it and a pair costing $150.
Not true. People like Ripster will not recommend a newbie buy a Realforce or HHKB just to have one. The point is you can increase your typing pleasure with many different switches. Same goes for my friends at Head-fi with regards to audiophile equipment. We aren't spending money for the hell of it.
See the OP.
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Ok thanks for the comments on the Noppoo Choc Mini 84 USB NKRO Mechanical Gaming Keyboard Cherry MX Red
I am seriously considering buying it .... any negative comments about it before I do ? any cherry red tenkeyless that are better for gaming ?
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If you want the F-keys to be right up against the number keys, your choices beyond a noppoo choc mini are pretty limited. If you're ok with the F-keys offset in a normal 87-key tenkeyless, then there are probably better cheap buys out there (leopold or something). Especially if you don't happen to live in Asia and would have to pay ~2x more for the noppoo choc mini. I wouldn't pay ~$100 for it.
On January 03 2013 15:38 Blisse wrote:I really love the layout of the Choc Mini. The Delete key is in an amazing position.
Careful about that. I have 2 or 3 choc minis, and on one of them the delete key is in a DIFFERENT *($)#*^&ING POSITION. Also, the key that is in the glorious position of the other boards (far top right, easy to hit) is hard-wired to a god damn useless switch lock key that doesn't even transmit a signal over USB. As in it's just a hardware switch internal to the keyboard, so without breaking open the plastic and trying to rewire it, it's useless - impossible to remap with software. Fuck, I'm still pissed about that 
But, it's cheap as hell (like $50), surprisingly sturdy, and if you want that form factor with F-keys there's like a grand total of 0 other keyboards on the market, so... yea.
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On January 03 2013 15:51 slytown wrote:
Not true. People like Ripster will not recommend a newbie buy a Realforce or HHKB just to have one.
Geekwhackers would tell you to get a $500 Korean Keyboard with $250 skull keys.
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Ripster, you probably are the most famous keyboard guru on the Internet.
Can you help me?
I kinda feel bored with the Red switches (I got a free Steelseries 6gv2 Reds 3 weeks ago). Do I need more time to get used to them? If one day I want to try a tactile keyboard, do you recommend Blues or Browns (coming from Red switches)?
Out of curiosity, do you play SC2? Which keyboard do you prefer?
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Not trying to be snide here but I did laugh out loud when you mentioned your friends on Head-fi and how they don't spend money for the hell of it. Audiophiles are probably the worst people to bring up when discussing "sensible spending" for reasons I should not need to explain if you remotely understand basic science...
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EPT
