Do you use a high DPI? Because I personally never move my wrist and just move round the mouse with two fingers on the side and two on top. Anyone know what type of grip that would be?
Do you use a high DPI? Because I personally never move my wrist and just move round the mouse with two fingers on the side and two on top. Anyone know what type of grip that would be?
Razer has some pics to kinda show what the grips are. Obviously there is a lot of variations.
Thanks for the link! It seems Razer has updated their mouse ergonomics guide since I last saw it. My grip is identical to the one in the picture except the base of my pinky finger touches the right side of my mouse, so yeah I guess I'm fingertip.
On March 12 2013 11:28 Belial88 wrote: Claw gripper here (or really, fingertip gripper, does anyone really 'claw' grip it, i mean it's fingertip grip right? Or why is it called fingertip grip, just call it claw. ugh stupid razer).
I just got a deathadder 3.5g. nice mouse, but I was curious about getting a CM storm spawn instead.
Any claw (or 'fingertip') grippers out there care to comment on the spawn? In particular, people who've used a deathadder and spawn?
Thanks. I'm aware the deathadder sensor is just oh so perfect but the storm has a good sensor too, as I understand it, like a really good one, and the issues are more related to certain firmwares being bad than the mouse being bad.
In claw grip the back or your palm touches the mouse (most of the time) and your fingers are "clawed". In fingertip grip only your fingers touch the mouse, and the fingers are more "straight".
Yes I know the differences between claw and fingertip. I'm just skeptical if anyone actually is a 'claw' gripper in the sense they 'claw' grip but let it rest in their palm. I'm pretty sure it's just Palm vs Fingertip grip, but everyone else in the world calls fingertip just Claw grip.
My fingers aren't as pronounced claws as the pictures suggest for claw grips. And I don't palm because only the tips of my fingers touch the mouse, and it doesn't tug back into my palm. The mouse only ever rests at the base of my pinky and ring finger. I don't finger grip because it does touch my hand and not only my fingers.
I can imagine lots of people also do something similar to me, so a true claw doesn't seem far away.
On March 13 2013 08:59 Belial88 wrote: How clawed up your fingers are has nothing to do with if you are a claw/fingertip grip or not. That just has to do with where you are comfortable placing your fingers on the particular mouse you are using at the moment.
Palm is very very different from claw/fingertip, you use your arm and shoulder to move the mouse, you hold the entire mouse very firmly. Palm has your finger contacting the mouse through the entire length of your fingers, whereas claw/fingertip, your fingers are only contacting at the tips.
There is no 'claw' grip by razer's standard, no one does that shit. It's palm vs fingertip. And only razer calls it fingertip, everyone else calls it claw. If you really did razer's 'claw' grip you just wouldn't be able to move the mouse.
I can claw and play perfectly fine, so calm down. Jeez.
I don't palm, and I don't do a finger-tip grip. I'm closest to clawing, but still not really. It's not hard to imagine a true claw where I'm coming from.
My frustration is not directed towards you, it's towards Razer.
Claw is not like a 'claw' with your hand, it's just called claw. It might look like a claw at some angle when you push your mouse in some direction (like pulling back on the mouse, moving the mouse downward, does your hand not 'claw' a bit?). It may seem confusing, but it's really straightforward, palm and claw/fingertip are night and day.
I'm 100% certain you are a claw grip (or 'fingertip' by razor's standards). Palm is a very different motion, it's more popular among FPSers who do very large, sweeping motions as they swing their character 180*. The majority of people palm their mouse (just ask your gf or coworker to hold a mouse, they'll most likely palm it).
There's no such thing as claw by razer's standards, you can't physically move a mouse via your fingers if it's stuck in your palm. You either fingertip grip or palm grip, ie you move the mouse with your fingers or with your shoulder.
Everyone holds their mouse a little differently and every single mouse is held a bit differently by every person. You aren't a fingertip gripper, you are just a claw gripper like every other claw gripper. Like there's no way anyone will 'claw' grip (ie razer) a cm storm, the mouse is just way too short to 'claw' grip (unless you got small person hands). You didn't suddenly change from a claw gripper to fingertip gripper overnight. There's claw, or fingertip grip, and everyone might hold their mouse a bit differently based on the mouse and the size of your hands and personal comfort but it's basically do you move the mouse using your shoulder and forearm and completely grasp the mouse, or do you use your fingers to control the mouse and push it around.
this is all just my personal opinion, but i really do think the whole fingertip vs claw is silly. it's just claw, that's what everyone else calls it.
I never said I was a finger-tip gripper or a claw gripper. I said I was between the two. The claw grip assumes the mouse is held by your finger-tips and in your palm; my mouse is held by my fingers and the base of my pinky and ring finger, not the palm. The finger-tip grip assumes I only use my fingers - I don't.
On my Orochi I use a finger-tip grip because my hand is too large for the mouse. There's no physical way I can palm or claw it.
The claw grip with the mouse in my palm is easily doable - it's just not comfortable for me with this mouse.
my point is that i dont feel there's really a distinction in the two styles, i think its basically the same thing and accounting for hand size and mouse shape there isnt really a difference. whereas palm is a totally different way of handling the mouse.
i just wanted to know if anyone has used both the deathadder and spawn, and their input on how the two mice are, particularly as a claw gripper (or 'fingertip'). I just bought a deathadder (brand new, craigslist, $20 3.5g, and it's not the counterfeit one for sure) but was thinking of maybe selling this da for a spawn if that's really a more comfortable mouse, as i hear the da is for palmers while spawn is better for claw grippers.
couldnt really resist the price of the da i had found and i was just looking for a better mouse than my kinzu.
On March 13 2013 16:57 Belial88 wrote: my point is that i dont feel there's really a distinction in the two styles, i think its basically the same thing and accounting for hand size and mouse shape there isnt really a difference. whereas palm is a totally different way of handling the mouse.
i just wanted to know if anyone has used both the deathadder and spawn, and their input on how the two mice are, particularly as a claw gripper (or 'fingertip'). I just bought a deathadder (brand new, craigslist, $20 3.5g, and it's not the counterfeit one for sure) but was thinking of maybe selling this da for a spawn if that's really a more comfortable mouse, as i hear the da is for palmers while spawn is better for claw grippers.
couldnt really resist the price of the da i had found and i was just looking for a better mouse than my kinzu.
Hey Belial, I personally can't use a claw grip, I have to have my mouse on a huge dpi then move the mouse with just my fingers whilst the base of my hand rests against the mousemat. If I ever use someone else's mouse I'm forced to use a grip where my palm touches because generally people either have a big mouse or a low dpi mouse, because I'm forced to play with that style I instantly suck at quite a few games as it involves completely different hand control to what I'm used to.
On March 13 2013 16:57 Belial88 wrote: my point is that i dont feel there's really a distinction in the two styles, i think its basically the same thing and accounting for hand size and mouse shape there isnt really a difference. whereas palm is a totally different way of handling the mouse.
There is a distinction between the two styles.
Speaking from the DeathAdder,
When you finger-tip it, your fingers do most of the movement. When you claw it, most of your movement comes from the pivot on your wrist. When you palm it, most of your movement comes from your arm.
When I palm the mouse, I pivot on my wrist. For me, there's not much distinction between palming and clawing. I simply claw my fingers from the palm position and I'm clawing. But there's a bigger difference when I use the claw versus the finger-tip grip. With the claw, I'm constantly rolling on the base of my palm. With the finger-tip, the mouse is held forward 1-2cm from where I would with my other grips, and movement only occurs with my fingers.
I'm not being hostile, I've been saying there's a difference and you've been "not getting it" the entire time. If I'm not being clear enough, I'll take pictures after work.
When you finger-tip it, your fingers do most of the movement. When you claw it, most of your movement comes from the pivot on your wrist. When you palm it, most of your movement comes from your arm.
When you 'fingertip' it it, it's impossible for your fingers to move the mouse left and right without the wrist. Fingertip = claw.
I simply claw my fingers from the palm position and I'm clawing
It doesn't matter if your hand is clawed up or not. If you are using your shoulder and forearm rather than your fingers and wrist to control the mouse, it's palm.
The differences in fingertip and claw are so minute that it's not even worth saying they are different styles. You'll stop being a claw gripper real quick on a mouse like the spawn which you can't possibly 'claw-razer' grip.
When you finger-tip it, your fingers do most of the movement. When you claw it, most of your movement comes from the pivot on your wrist. When you palm it, most of your movement comes from your arm.
When you 'fingertip' it it, it's impossible for your fingers to move the mouse left and right without the wrist. Fingertip = claw.
I simply claw my fingers from the palm position and I'm clawing
It doesn't matter if your hand is clawed up or not. If you are using your shoulder and forearm rather than your fingers and wrist to control the mouse, it's palm.
The differences in fingertip and claw are so minute that it's not even worth saying they are different styles. You'll stop being a claw gripper real quick on a mouse like the spawn which you can't possibly 'claw-razer' grip.
Claw grip:
Only large motions use the arm/shoulder, most of the smaller motions use the wrist to make small sweeps where the mouse is picked up off the mat.
This is why claw grippers are particularly picky about lift-off distance while palm grippers don't notice nearly as much - those sweeps get much harder to control as the lift-off distance increases.
When you finger-tip it, your fingers do most of the movement. When you claw it, most of your movement comes from the pivot on your wrist. When you palm it, most of your movement comes from your arm.
When you 'fingertip' it it, it's impossible for your fingers to move the mouse left and right without the wrist. Fingertip = claw.
See, this is wrong. The dominant motion with the finger-tip grip are your fingers. As you say it's impossible, I'm doing it right now, so you just sound stupid whenever you say that.
First of all, you're completely ignoring the big picture, which is the entire movement of the mouse - from the location of your fingers on the mouse, the contact of your mouse with your hand, the dominant movement, the precise movements, the size of the mouse relative to your hand and some others.
You're so intent on isolating the differences between the grips to just the dominant motion... and now that you've gave up on the inability to move the mouse up and down in the claw grip...
When you use the finger-tip grip, most of the time, your wrist is firmly planted on the desk. The mouse isn't cradled in your palm so you have a wide range of motion from your fingers. While your hand moves, for the most part, your wrist is still firmly planted - your hand doesn't actually move or wiggle from the desk. This will depend on a lot of other specifics, but to move your mouse up and down, you claw up your fingers. At the maximum downward point, it probably still doesn't touch your palm. To move the mouse left and right, at least for me, your wrist is still "planted" even though it does move left to right a bit. The dominant behavior here for me is that my thumb and ring finger joints will expand or contract, pushing the mouse left to right.
With a claw grip, my wrist is a lot looser on the table. I can roll it forward and back a bit, and the range of motion left to right causes that "plant" to slide. It is almost always held at least slightly in your palm. If I do move the mouse left and right, my thumb and ring finger don't move at all - the motion is largely from the wrist "plant" or pivot.
I simply claw my fingers from the palm position and I'm clawing
It doesn't matter if your hand is clawed up or not. If you are using your shoulder and forearm rather than your fingers and wrist to control the mouse, it's palm.
The differences in fingertip and claw are so minute that it's not even worth saying they are different styles. You'll stop being a claw gripper real quick on a mouse like the spawn which you can't possibly 'claw-razer' grip.
Just because you can't claw on certain mice doesn't mean the grip doesn't exist on other mice...I can claw it, I just wouldn't get the range of motion I want.
Just as if I palm a Spawn it won't fit in my palm. By your logic, the palm grip doesn't exist for me there either.
I'm not comfortable continuing this discussion, I think people are getting a little too heated over this. I just wanted a friendly discussion, I figured this was something we could laugh over. Even on Razer's site they say claw/fingertip are very similar. Just a page ago you weren't even sure what kind of grip style you had, and I'm hardly an authority on mice myself.
I just want to know if anyone has used both the spawn and DA.
Here Belial, i just tried using base of palm as support and made a video of Osu+Webcam. Not warmed up yet this morning (its 9am) so my mouse skills are not nearly as good as they should be, and of course i never really tried "clawing" before
Using fingertip grip (5 contact points) vs claw (part of palm in contact with mouse, etc) feels extremely different, even if it looks a little similar.
First fingertip, then claw:
I desaturated webcam to make hand+mouse easier to see, but with fingertip there's at least 1-3cm or so between any point of my palm and the mouse at any given time, Deathadder is bigger on the right side so it provides a really nice spot for supporting with the base of your palm for claw.
I did not use a spawn, i chose Deathadder over it originally (for the superior sensor) but i would really like to try one, claw gives much more control over the weight of the mouse though it is harder to use, at least at first.
It changes the dynamics of gripping a LOT, you basically have to move your wrist or your arm, whereas with fingertip you can move the mouse a lot without doing either, for example pulling it back towards you (which makes your fingers bend towards the "claw" shape - but not claw grip, because your palm is not supporting the mouse and contributing with your thumb, pinky and the finger next to pinky to lock the mouse in place solidly so that you have to move wrist or arm.
This is at ~810 pixels per inch of movement (or call it DPI/CPI, whatever) so the dynamics would probably be quite a lot different at notably higher or lower sensitivities, but i have muscle memory established very strongly at 810 (when im not just waking up..) and 810@1920x1080 is close to 400@1366x786 in terms of movement required to cross the screen, which you use.
Fingertip
Base of palm making contact with mouse, mouse locked in place between palm, thumb and side fingers (claw)
Fingertip is heavily reliant on Left and right mouse button fingers, claw makes them almost irrelevant. Note the thumb position, extremely important (further forward with claw, allowing you to stabilize the weight of the mouse with it and the base of palm in a way that is impossible with fingertip)
On March 14 2013 06:08 Belial88 wrote: I'm not comfortable continuing this discussion, I think people are getting a little too heated over this. I just wanted a friendly discussion, I figured this was something we could laugh over. Even on Razer's site they say claw/fingertip are very similar. Just a page ago you weren't even sure what kind of grip style you had, and I'm hardly an authority on mice myself.
I just want to know if anyone has used both the spawn and DA.
If you actually believe you are 'hardly an authority', you shouldn't show up and tell people to redefine their terminology according to what you think. And you can't walk in and tell people they are wrong without sufficient support, get called out on it, then fall back on 'I just meant to have a friendly discussion'.
This discussion is more heated than it should be. That said, a lot of people come through this thread who aren't hardware nerds like the rest of us and don't want to drop a few hundred dollars on mice in order to find something that works for them. Keeping things clear and as opinion-free as possible avoids confusion and general misinformation.
Edit: This post probably sounded more callous than I meant it to, I edited it a little. I only want to bury it now because this is a great thread for newbies and I want to be able to keep pointing people here without confusing them further.
Anyone can recommend a mouse like the EC1 zowie Mico but with the two scroll buttons on the side? Need it for Dota 2 item hotkeys. I'm leaning towards the EC2 but it looks a bit bigger than the original small one, which I love for the size.
Fingertip is heavily reliant on Left and right mouse button fingers, claw makes them almost irrelevant. Note the thumb position, extremely important (further forward with claw, allowing you to stabilize the weight of the mouse with it and the base of palm in a way that is impossible with fingertip)
You've seen how I mouse grip, but my 'fingertip' is much further forward than yours. My fingertip looks much more like your claw, except that the base of the mouse is not touching my palm. Or it might a little sometimes, i mean just because the mouse is big enough that it sometimes touches my palm doesnt change my gripstyle.
I think that mouse shape, hand size and personal, slight adjustment in where exactly you hold the mouse, are just that, just personal adjustments. Not a different way of holding the mouse. In both finger and claw, you move the mouse left/right by moving your wrist. With a mouse like that huge logitech, a claw/finger gripper would need to 'claw' it and maybe use their palm to stabilize it a bit when lifting, while with the cm storm spawn any such claw/finger gripper would have no need to and the mouse is so short that you aren't going to use your palm to stabilize it.
I hear what you say about claw essentially has to act like a palm when moving the cursor downwards, but i imagine most claw grippers just have the mouse a little extended so they can use their fingers to pull the mouse back a bit. It would seem odd you use fingers/wrist for all controls and lift off except shoulder/forearm for going backwards. Can someone really definitively say they are a claw gripper and not a fingertip gripper when they use a tiny mouse like the kinzu or spawn or xornet?
I use a Logitech G400 and I've installed the Logitech Gaming Software. Does anyone know if it's possible to make the settings in it stick when turning off the program? Every time I turn off the program, they change.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vWUkF2c.jpg)
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