Computer Build Resource Thread - Page 45

LetMeShine, I understand your analogy about graphics cards with third party designs (while they are not identical situations I must concede there are some parallels), but I would still like some conclusive evidence that they are simply "designed" and not "manufactured" by Seasonic. It would also be nice to have some proof that, if these cards are in fact not "manufactured" but only "designed" by Seasonic, they contain lower quality components than comparable Seasonic products. Johnnyguru seemed to have a slight problem with a 650W XFX PSU, but they seemed fine with another 850W, and hardwaresecrets and overclockersclub, among other websites, seem to have very few problems at all with any power supplies from XFX. I have also read that since Seasonic were the OEM manufacturer for some PC Power and Cooling power supplies, some of the leftover PCBs manufactured for those supplies were used in other power supplies made for different companies (my apologies for not having a specific source to back up this statement at the moment). I believe it would also be nice to have some concrete evidence that PC Power and Cooling power supplies were also simply "designed" by Seasonic and yet "manufactured" by some other company. Of course, in that situation, I find it odd that these PCBs would wind up in XFX supplies if there was not a single company manufacturing both of these cards, so conclusive proof of which company specifically "manufactured" these power supplies would put the matter to rest. I would also like to mention that I never said all XFX power supplies were manufactured by Seasonic, only some, so I think I have some leeway in my position if it turns out that a specific 650W XFX model is not a Seasonic rebrand. My apologies if I am not taking your words as gospel, I am simply trying to adhere to certain standards in where I get my information, something which you yourself have mentioned to be important in these types of discussions.

80+ certification, when legitimate, means that a power supply has 80+ certification. I am happy that you have revised your previous statement that they mean "nothing." While "they mean nothing" is obviously false, your current argument that "they mean little" is far more subjective and so I cannot comment on the veracity of what is essentially an opinion. I believe we can agree that there are plenty of non-Seasonic power supplies that are, at the very least, high enough quality to possibly consider, perhaps as an alternative for someone on a lower budget or simply if they wish to save some money.

I would also like to reiterate that I did state that XFX power supplies were cheaper than their Corsair counterparts. Even if you are correct and these are not manufactured by Seasonic, CWT, or any other reputable OEM, and are in fact manufactured by some other questionable company, I think paying slightly less money for slightly worse quality seems like a reasonable example of getting "what you're paying for." If I am paying less money, it is logical that I should expect a lower quality product. Of course, this is not to say XFX power supplies are in any way low quality, you yourself have admitted that it is at least a "good" power supply. In addition, if these "good" power supplies do have high efficiencies, and your statement that "the more efficient, the less heat it will produce and the longer it will live anyway" can be believed, then how exactly does this lower quality affect the end user, and if it does so in a noticeable way, why do you believe it is worth the extra cost to ensure you are buying the slightly higher quality PSU both "designed" and "manufactured" by Seasonic? Of course, if the XFX power supplies are in fact not only "designed" but also "manufactured" by Seasonic, this specific discussion is irrelevant.

Personally, while I have the greatest respect for Seasonic and their power supplies, I think it is perfectly reasonable to be happy with a power supply that is simply "good," especially if it saves a great deal of money. You may have higher standards or more disposable income than the average person, but this is obviously a matter of personal preference and thus I think it is disingenuous to so strongly insist that Seasonic and Seasonic rebrands are the only valid choice for a (high quality) power supply when there are plenty of quality alternatives that are either made by other companies or simply "manufactured" based on a "design" from Seasonic.

In the interest of revealing any possible bias, my main desktop currently contains a Corsair TX650, which is apparently "manufactured" by either CWT or Seasonic. I at least have reliable sources that claim the 750W and 850W of the TX series is manufactured by CWT (hardwaresecretshardwaresecrets for the 750 and johnnygurujohnnyguru for the 850), but I can't seem to find anything other than random forum posts claiming one or the other for the 650W model specifically. Of course since we both agree that CWT is a respectable company which is at least almost as good as Seasonic, this should not be a major point of contention.

80+ efficiency does mean something, so it is obviously not meaningless. Of course, since you have used the phrasing "kind of meaningless," it is once again an opinion and so I cannot really comment on it.

You have still not managed to produce an actual source for your claim that XFX power supplies are simply "designed" by Seasonic and yet, let's say, "built" by another company. Given the expected meaning of "manufacture" and the numerous sources I have provided that use some variant of the phrasing "manufactured by Seasonic," you can see if I am a little hesitant to believe you when you repeatedly claim something yet are not able to produce a single source saying so. If it is in fact "obvious" and there are "sources everywhere," I'm sure it should be no problem for you.

XFX has had problems in the GPU market in the past, but they seem to have improved recently. I personally have no problems with companies that have produced suboptimal products at some point in their history, because if I did I would be unable to buy a single product without violating my standards. Just as an example, Antec would obviously be out of the question for power supplies, but you seem to have no problem recommending them.

Some sites do not do extensive testing of a power supply at some ranges (specifically outside of advertised specifications) because yes, it does not really affect the average, or even the particularly enthusiastic user. The only reason this matters is if you are actively trying to kill the power supply, which I again do not think the average user is particularly interested in. In that case, why exactly is the average user so discouraged from using a power supply that may explode at 100 or 200 watts above what it is designed for? If so much power was needed, I'm sure you would agree that a higher rated power supply is recommended, regardless of brand.

In my opinion, for many power supplies that do have overload protection, it is very difficult to justify why it is necessary (or at the very least useful) when the power supplies are already operating outside of specifications before they shut down. Hardwaresecrets, for example, simply stops their overload tests as soon as either voltage or ripple violate specifications; of course power supplies that fall victim to this "problem" even include ones made by Seasonic (two examples where this is the case, though I suppose hardwaresecrets could be lying for whatever reason, in which case this point is not valid).

It is good that you have realized that your previous argument involving Shaw power supplies was misinformed. Of course in this case, the 80+ certification was actually meaningless, because, like I mentioned before, it was (possibly) a fake badge.

Also, just a couple of points I wanted clarification on:

When you say "most companies," I assume you are also including Seasonic? (this also has relevance to your point that companies will often falsely claim to have multiple rails) In that case, how do we determine what a reliable brand is, if even a company such as Seasonic falsely advertises? Wouldn't this just be further proof to look at power supplies on a case by case basis, and to avoid generalities such as "XFX's models are pretty famous for cutting corners to produce products that can compete with the competition," when even the "best" companies do it? Or is there another non-Seasonic manufacturer that never falsely advertises (and also produces high quality products, obviously if you produce a shoddy product and don't lie when advertising, your product is still low quality), and if that is the case why did you mention Seasonic as your example of high standards instead of this better company? In addition, if even the best companies do these things, then can we really hold "good" but not "great" companies to a higher standard than "great" companies? Personally that strikes me as unreasonable, but you may have an alternative opinion.



For the sake of fairness, I would like to quote something else from that post:
and mention that it is possible Antec exaggerates the benefits of multiple rails, if johnnyguru is to be believed.