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On March 07 2013 05:41 llIH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2013 05:31 MrCon wrote:I'm not sure so I'd wait more qualified people to answer. I know the Ivy CPUs draw less power than the Sandy one, so the 3570K should use less power than the 2500K. It's the same for GPUs, I think the 77xx generation draw less power than the previous one but I don't know how much the previous one was using =) If you overclock 400W could not be enough. It also depend on how much hard drives and other stuff you have. You can read the technical details to know exactly how much power each part needs. http://www.hardware.fr/articles/863-9/consommation-efficacite-energetique.html this page tests most CPU's power consumption. A 3570K uses 130W in full charge, a radeon 7770 use 75W google just told me. A hard drive uses 10W maximum, more about 5-7W. So a good 400W is enough unless you overclock big or you have 6 hard drives, 2 blue ray writers, 10 USB peripherals and 10 fans. I will only have 1DVD and 1 HDD But if I can overclock the cpu that would be cool.
For overclocking, money required goes up quite a bit. I am guessing at least 50 EUR in Europe. You should buy a better motherboard (idk which one's the cheapest that's enough), you need a cpu cooler as Intel's isn't good enough (hyper 212 evo or true spirit 120 are very good for their price), and you need the 3570k instead of something cheaper. But it can actually get you a lot in SC2 regarding the FPS in some 200/200 battle.
EDIT: Going from 4 GHz to 4.5 GHz adds 50 W power consumption, so that's another thing that can mean more money required for a different PSU.
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On March 07 2013 05:31 MrCon wrote:
A 3570K uses 130W in full charge, a radeon 7770 use 75W google just told me. A hard drive uses 10W maximum, more about 5-7W. So a good 400W is enough unless you overclock big or you have 6 hard drives, 2 blue ray writers, 10 USB peripherals and 10 fans.
That 130W figure is the entire computer under CPU load.
It was 52W measured going through the ATX12V connector, which usually supplies most or all of the power to the VRMs that power the CPU. There are some small losses in the VRMs as well, so CPU consumption could be under that, or a little more if the VRMs are also taking some power from the 24-pin ATX mobo connector.
To get 50W extra from overclocking an i5-3570k, you would need a whole lot more voltage. Most people won't be using that much extra.
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On March 07 2013 06:27 Ropid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2013 05:41 llIH wrote:On March 07 2013 05:31 MrCon wrote:I'm not sure so I'd wait more qualified people to answer. I know the Ivy CPUs draw less power than the Sandy one, so the 3570K should use less power than the 2500K. It's the same for GPUs, I think the 77xx generation draw less power than the previous one but I don't know how much the previous one was using =) If you overclock 400W could not be enough. It also depend on how much hard drives and other stuff you have. You can read the technical details to know exactly how much power each part needs. http://www.hardware.fr/articles/863-9/consommation-efficacite-energetique.html this page tests most CPU's power consumption. A 3570K uses 130W in full charge, a radeon 7770 use 75W google just told me. A hard drive uses 10W maximum, more about 5-7W. So a good 400W is enough unless you overclock big or you have 6 hard drives, 2 blue ray writers, 10 USB peripherals and 10 fans. I will only have 1DVD and 1 HDD But if I can overclock the cpu that would be cool. For overclocking, money required goes up quite a bit. I am guessing at least 50 EUR in Europe. You should buy a better motherboard (idk which one's the cheapest that's enough), you need a cpu cooler as Intel's isn't good enough (hyper 212 evo or true spirit 120 are very good for their price), and you need the 3570k instead of something cheaper. But it can actually get you a lot in SC2 regarding the FPS in some 200/200 battle. EDIT: Going from 4 GHz to 4.5 GHz adds 50 W power consumption, so that's another thing that can mean more money required for a different PSU.
I already said that I was going for 3570K i5
I thought the stock fan was good enough for overclocking ivy bridge cpus. This is my first time at ivy.
Where do the 50 euro come from you are talking about. Is it the cost for a cooler you mean?
Myrmidon: 400W enough you think? What would be a realistic overclock on the 3570K to squeeze some extra juice without having to get too much of an expensive mb and cooler?
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Stock heatsink/fan is enough for a small overclock, but you really want something significantly better for 4.0 GHz+.
As for overclock, depends on chip. 4.2-4.6 GHz on cheapish motherboard and cooling.
400W is way more than a i5-3570k + HD 7770 system would need with heavy overclocks on both. Where are you again? In most markets you can't really find quality retail ATX power supplies under 360W anyway.
edit: extra costs come from needing K version processor, Z75 or Z77 motherboard (instead of cheaper options, which include B75 and H77 models), and heatsink. Often it's more than 50 euros extra.
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United Kingdom20274 Posts
I thought the stock fan was good enough for overclocking ivy bridge cpus
Ivy runs hotter than pretty much anything when unmodded and even with an nh-d14 or h100 you often hit thermal limits before voltage ones - you can go about 1.4-1.45v 24/7 on air cooling without damaging the CPU, but the CPU gets far too hot unless you mod the CPU and use a rather extreme cooling setup to do that - compared to Sandy bridge - where you can only run to about 1.35v and the CPU by default runs much cooler than ivy at the same voltage - with mid-high end air cooling you could reach 1.35v and whatever frequency it allowed you, and not be able to go further regardless of cooling because more voltage would damage the CPU.
Something like 4.3-4.6ghz (depending on how much vcore you need - some chips do 4.6 on 1.2v - others need 1.25v for 4.3) is realistic, with a hyper 212 evo and a motherboard with decent power delivery that supports manual voltage control and load line calibration prefered, something not Asrock because they have issues with some or all of their boards supplying too much voltage and reading as normal
edit: Ninja'd by Myrm
Overclocking is good because there are cases where performance is dictated almost entirely by CPU - Starcraft 2 in a lategame battle for example, paying 30-100 euros extra for a 35% overclock will just flat out give you 35% higher framerates, same with video encoding, etc - even if you were to invest like $5k into a system - if you did not overclock - your system would perform that 35% worse than the overclocked CPU in sc2, because you are bottlenecked by single threaded performance and the extra money will not increase that - only make other areas of the system better. SC2 is a bit of an outlier in that you literally cant make major performance gains in mid to endgame once you reach the price point for an i5 system + weak GPU unless you overclock, but a lot of things benefit a lot.
I think this would be helpful for you:
UPDATE: I repeated the experiment with a late game ZvZ replay with maxed armies:
3300 MHz:
Avg: 41.925 - Min: 27 - Max: 58
3700 MHz:
Avg: 46.625 - Min: 32 - Max: 63
4400 MHz:
Avg: 56.025 - Min: 39 - Max: 77
That was done on a 2500k, note the Minimum FPS - 3570k would perform some 5-10% better at the same clock speed (mhz) but it's a little more expensive, and at times, a little more tricky for overclocking - on weak cooling, you can often take the 2500k a few hundred mhz further and make them perform the same.
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Were the AsRock readings off with no LLC?
On the other hand, use modern MSI (even on the high end) and get no offset voltage settings. You either have auto or manual (with no lower voltage on idle).
With Gigabyte you need to spend a bit more to get something that overclocks okay, and with Asus everything is relatively expensive. Well, there's always Biostar and ECS...
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On March 07 2013 02:26 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2013 01:22 Shai wrote:Hey TL. It's been about 6 years since I last bought a "new computer." I'm using an AMD Phenom X3 8450 processor that came from a box-store Compaq Presario. These are the original stats of that computer: http://reviews.cnet.com/desktops/compaq-presario-sr5552f-phenom/4505-3118_7-33773301.htmlI've since upgraded the graphics card to an NVidea GeForce GT 430 and to 4GB of RAM (2x2GB). -My processor and/or motherboard are dying, which is one reason I want to build a new rig. -I want to stream, and my processor isn't up to the task. -I want to emulate PS2 on my computer (I have the real games I want to use, I just want to emulate them on my PC) and my processor is too old. So I want help from the good folks at TL to help me build a new PC. -I don't want to spend more than ~800 Canadian Dollars before taxes and shipping (we have sales tax added on). -If possible, I'd like to get all of my parts from one supplier (preferably NewEgg.ca, the Canadian sister site of NewEgg, since shipping would be better) -I don't need a new graphics card ~yet~. So we don't need to go looking for one. -I DO need a 64bit version of Windows, since I'm currently running Windows 7 32 bit. -I don't need an asthetically pleasing case, just a functional one. -I don't want to overclock. I'm not that confident in doing it and I want my processor to last a long time. My resolution is 1680-1050. I have no problem upgrading individual parts after the build, so what's most important to me is a good processor and a good motherboard (and obviously decent cooling and power supply). I'm not enough of an enthusiast that I need both an SSD and SATA hard drive, I'll do fine with any old hard drive, and I don't need more than 500GB unless something is cheap. If anyone wants to help and needs more information, feel free to ask. I'm ignorant but not stupid, I can probably answer any questions with a bit of research. EDIT: I'm actually fine with keeping my 500GB barracuda hard drive and reformatting to 64bit. Look at the config I posted just above, replace the i5 2500K by something like an i3 3220 (about 110$), or for a longer term CPU an i5 3570 (about 60$ more), I was exactly in your price range, and I'm also a big PCSX (1 and 2) user, and a big Dolphin user (in fact for the last few weeks I spend all my free time playing the various Fire Emblems on GC and Wii :p), and it works perfectly (emulation speed 100% for PS2, PS1, Wii/Gamecube emulators). Without the need for a graphic card you change my 4go ram for 8go, choose a case you like and a good 450-500W power supply (important, power supply is a part you can't afford to buy noname) . I didn't follow hardware for some years, but as I just bought the kind of setup you're looking for, I read and asked a lot about that so it's the period can help on this =)
I don't know how long this deal will last, but I found a PC in a box store with the 3570k, 8GB DDR3 ram, a motherboard I've never heard of, but I know nothing about mobo's (IPMMB-FM), 2TB harddrive, wireless, bluetooth, 460W power supply, for $770 Canadian. The only thing I'm not sure about is the mother board.
Anyone have anything to say about the survivability/upgradability of the IPMMB-FM?
Computer specs are here: http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?objectID=c03531719&lang=en&cc=us&taskId=101&contentType=SupportFAQ&prodSeriesId=5295996&prodTypeId=12454
Again, it's on sale, need some opinions today if possible ><.
EDIT: Comes with fresh install of Windows 8.
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Everything seems nice except the GPU (it's a 20$ GPU if google doesn't lie to me) and the mobo (micro ATX (why not) and bleh chipset), you should check the price of each part which is not mobo or GPU and see how much there is left.
Hard drive, ram and CPU are good, (even tho a no name hard drive isn't reassuring) but I'm not sure if it's a real good deal, just count out yourself, count 60$ for the mobo and 20$ for the GPU and see by yourself (US$, I dunno the canadian rate).
I have not calculated but intuitively I think it's bad and for the same price you could have way better, but it's just my guess.
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As far as premades go, it's not bad, but it comes with the Intel stock cooler (won't allow much overclocking), a near-worthless video card, and a motherboard that's HP-specific and I wouldn't trust beyond stock speeds.
If you're looking to game on it, you'd have to upgrade the video card at a minimum -- which is $100 for even a value-priced 7750.
Here's what a strictly better system built yourself would cost without any super good sales, bundles, etc.:
i5-3570k -- $220
Radeon HD 7770 -- $115
Some ATX Mid case -- $50
Corsair Builder CX430 or CX500 -- $40
Toshiba 2TB -- $100
ASRock Z77 Pro3 -- $90
Some DVD-RW -- $17
Hyper 212+ -- $20
Some 2x4GB 1600mhz 1.5v RAM -- $45
Windows 8 -- $100
Wireless/Bluetooth card -- $10
Total, everyday with no super good deals included -- $797, with probably free shipping. In reality, you could put the money you'd invest in a 1TB HDD rather than a 2TB HDD that you probably won't need into a better PSU. This build gives you a prayer of actually using the overclocking potential that the stock system has (probably 4.0-4.2ghz without a slightly better motherboard), a video card that's actually worth at least something, and probably better reliability than the motherboard and PSU that the premade comes with.
However, if you have no interest in building your own system, it's actually decent as far as out-of-box bricks go. You also get tech support, if you feel like you'll need that.
Additionally, if you're a student, you can usually get Windows for <$20 (and at some places, for free) through your school. That would make the self-built system much better.
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I looked at NewEgg :
Qty. Product Description Savings Total Price
COOLER MASTER HAF 912 RC-912-KKN1 Black SECC/ ABS Plastic ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
$10.00 Mail-in Rebate Card
$69.99
Seagate Barracuda ST1000DM003 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
$79.99
SeaSonic S12II 520 Bronze 520W ATX12V V2.3 / EPS 12V V2.91 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power Supply
$64.99
G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL
$55.99
MSI Z77A-G43 LGA 1155 Intel Z77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard with UEFI BIOS
$10.00 Mail-in Rebate Card
$119.99
Intel Core i3-3220 Ivy Bridge 3.3GHz LGA 1155 55W Dual-Core Desktop Processor ...
$129.99
Subtotal: $520.94
Replace the i3 for an i5 :
Intel Core i5-3570K Ivy Bridge 3.4GHz (3.8GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 77W Quad-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 4000 BX80637I53570K
$229.99
Subtotal: $620.94
Now, the case is a pretty good quality medium/low price, the power supply too so you can lower the price of both and save 50$. The mobo and the 3570K are OC ready if you want in a few years for the price of a new heatsink you can gain some speed. Seems the 3570 (non K) is the same price so no reason to pick the non K. You can change the brand of the ram/power supply or mobo to your liking)
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What are you talking about? Newegg has sort options and is superior in every way compared to most every other website (especially European and Canadian). Not sure why you're using Newegg for Canada since Canadian pricing and availability is totally different.
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In case you didn't catch it, the normal newegg.com domain has separate pricing and availability than newegg.ca (usually lower prices, some more options); newegg.com doesn't ship to Canada, and newegg.ca doesn't ship to the US—not that anyone would want to.
Though price fluctuations mean that, for example, currently HAF 912 is cheaper on newegg.ca.
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Yeah it was my first time on newegg :p
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Ok, I must be really ignorant, can you explain why the graphics card is so bad? See, I just look at 2GB RAM on it and say, that's plenty ram on a GPU. I tried looking on the OP of the thread to see if it could explain to me why the GPU was bad.
I've googled and consensus is that the HD 7570 is bad, I just don't know why!
EDIT: This is just for my information. I still plan on building my own PC, just curious.
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Graphics card consists of more than just memory.. 7570 lacks stream processors, ROPs, TUs, and so on.
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The video RAM is just used to store lots of different information the GPU needs to work with. Hopefully you have enough. Actually, 2GB is a lot for such a weak card, pretty overkill.
The logical layout, drivers, max memory transfer rate, and particularly the actual number of execution units of various types (you know, the stuff doing the actual graphics processing) are more important.
It's just a rebranded HD 6570 (code-named Turks GPU), with 480 stream processors on AMD's years-old VLIW5 architecture. That's a ~$55 card mainly intended for media consumption and not games, but actually usable for some games on lowest settings, SC2 on medium, depending on resolution. It's not something you want though.
edit: Having more VRAM is like having a larger factory with more floor space. Doesn't matter and is pointless, if you don't have enough workers to make use of it, no matter what kind of widgets you're making. It's more important to have more workers and equipment (and that's what higher-end graphics cards have, in the analogy), until the point where they're stepping over each other and need to micromanage space.
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On March 07 2013 10:03 Shai wrote:
Ok, I must be really ignorant, can you explain why the graphics card is so bad? See, I just look at 2GB RAM on it and say, that's plenty ram on a GPU. I tried looking on the OP of the thread to see if it could explain to me why the GPU was bad.
I've googled and consensus is that the HD 7570 is bad, I just don't know why!
EDIT: This is just for my information. I still plan on building my own PC, just curious.
It's the kind of GPU which have basically no accelerating hardware. It's more or less just a PCI Express HDMI port, the card itself has no more power than a 3 years old smartphone =D (small exaggeration). In fact you can see that with your naked eye, the card is empty. Its memory type is ddr3 which is the same ram as your main ram and is totally inadequate for 3D games (too slow) and explain how the card can be so low priced with 2GO memory. Standard GPU memory is ddr5.
Compare that :
+ Show Spoiler +
to a 7850 :
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 06 2013 14:37 upperbound wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 10:16 Cattlecruiser wrote:On March 06 2013 07:19 upperbound wrote:On March 06 2013 05:59 Cattlecruiser wrote:On February 06 2013 22:47 Cattlecruiser wrote:On February 06 2013 21:33 Cyro wrote: Are those Acer able to upgraded to the point of playing Rome 2? There's no point when you can build a system that is equivelant in every way but better by many orders of magnitude in many ways for less money. Gtx680 outperforms the 630 by a factor of like 6-10 and is probably within budget even. i7 adds nothing over i5 for gaming while costing a chunk of money and the PSU+Motherboard are pretty much guaranteed to be low tier (because nobody buying prebuilts has any idea what is good or bad in those regards, most will only google a couple of components (cpu/gpu) if anything) etcetc. By upgrading you are talking about adding the cost of a strong GPU and also replacing the PSU to the 1.1k the system costs - you can make a system with a good motherboard, solid PSU, best gaming CPU, however much RAM you want, a HDD, low-mid capacity good SSD etc for like half of that 1.1k O.O I didn't know the huge price difference. Is $1200 a reasonable budget for a i5 processor, 2+ GB GPU(Not sure what is appropriate for Rome 2), and similar tiered motherboard+PSU+rest of the necessary parts starting from scratch? I am praying that I can start on this project within the next month when my spring break beings. I am just trying to see how much ramen, plasma donations, and extra hours I need to fit in before that time. Budget: ~$750-1200 Resolution: I do not have a monitor that would be appropriate for a new rig monitor budget ~100-200 Usage: Starcraft 2, upcoming Rome 2 Total War, maybe start up MOBA like Dota 2, Shogun 2, and Fifa 13. Upgrade Cycle: 2-3 years, hopefully 5 years? Build time: 1 month later Overclocking: No OS: Yes, Windows preferred. Extra parts: only if necessary for Rome 2 (huge army size:low-med graphics) Buying Parts: American websites like Amazon, newegg, and near by computer parts stores like Best buy and local one. EDIT: If there is room in my budget to make room for the possibility of overclocking and extra parts like second graphics card I would like to Hello, I have finally got the money in the bank :D!!!! Budget: 1200 US Dollars Resolution: No monitor, not included in budget Usage: Sc2, Rome 2 Total, Dota 2, some console Upgrade Cycle: 2+ years, 2-3 years Build time: this week/weekend Overclocking: No OS: No, Windows already available Extra parts: none Buying Parts: Micro Center, American websites newegg, ect I'm not sure what you're saying about the monitor, but I'm assuming that you mean that it's separate than the $1200 budget, which is just for the computer. Intel Core i5-3570k (MC) $190 ASRock Extreme4 (MC) $85 bundled Crucial Ballistix Sport 1600 MHz (MC) $47 bundled MSI GTX 670 (Newegg) $340 AR w/ $150 game coupon http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127675Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO (MC) $30 Samsung 840 250GB (Newegg) $150 AP: EMCXTXR23 -- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147189&nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL030513&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL030513-_-EMC-030513-Index-_-SSD-_-20147189-L0CToshiba 7200 RPM 1TB (MC) $60 Zalman Z11 (MC) $40 AR Rosewill Capstone 450W Continuous (Newegg) $65 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168171820662TOTAL: $1157 I abused your budget a little bit with a few luxury items: the 250GB SSD and 1TB HDD are not totally necessary; you can save $50 by switching to a 120GB SSD or $60 if ~200GB of storage space is enough for you. The GTX 670 also ran Shogun 2 demonstrably better than the HD 7950; but with the graphics engine overhaul who knows if that will still be the case. You can save $70 on this Sapphire HD 7950 if you want to save, get better performance/$, but chance that Rome 2 will also be much better optimized for nVidia hardware. Also, I now see that you only want to run low-medium settings on Rome with huge army size. A 7850 should be more than enough for that, too, and will cost about half of the 670 -- SC2 and Dota2 both require basically no GPU processing capacity. EDIT: Also, I don't know if the promo for the 840 is email-specific; if it is, then you should downsize to the 120GB version for $100 at MC. ALSO: Oh crap, you don't want to overclock now, even though you said you wanted the option in the last post. If you really don't want to OC at a $1200 budget  , scratch the Hyper 212 Evo and switch out the ASRock Extreme4 for an MSI Z77A-G41 and save $80. Thank you very much for your quick and detailed response. I would like to run Rome 2 at the highest setting possible for my budget, would 670 be a solid choice for the budget? Is overclocking efficient at the budget range? I wouldn't mind spending $80 for a reasonable performance/$ Yes, as above, a 670 is a solid choice within the budget, and leaves performance room if you decide to get a normal 1920x1080 or 1920x1200 monitor now, and then upgrade to a more expensive 2560x1440/1600 later: you have plenty of performance room to get there. It's a solid upgrade route with noticeable results without having to revamp an entire system. Overclocking is basically a 25-33% increase in performance per core over all 4 cores for about a 40% increase over the Microcenter price, and 33% increase over the internet market price. In some CPU-capped games, such as SC2, this will directly translate to an increase in frame rates, from about 25 minimum to up to about 40 minimum frames in large-scale battles -- a 50% performance increase in what you see on-screen at a framerate where that 50% increase makes the most difference in what you see (way more important to the eye than, say, going from 75 frames to 110, or for most people even 50 to 75). This increase is even more important when you have a quality video card that will cap you less often in even graphics-intensive games. While I don't know how the battle engine separate from the graphics will work in Rome, it seems possible that they could implement calculations that are significantly lower scale than the battalion level on a lot of modern technology, which would require a lot of processing capability. If you're honest about having a $1200 budget for just the hardware, and understand that having a better system also incentivizes a better monitor (the Eizo monitor that Myrm quoted last page has remarkable response times for an IPS panel), then it's worth it. If you realize that you'd be cutting into a monitor budget now, and don't plan on upgrading the monitor again soon after grabbing a new one, it might be better to maximize your current gaming experience with a higher-quality monitor now and crossing the "next upgrade path" bridge when you get to it. These are all things to consider; there's no correct answer here per se because it depends heavily on your plan and your preferences.
So far I have bought the GTX 670, Samsung 840, and Capstone 450W. I will purchase the rest of the listed items tomorrow at Micro Center. I still haven't decided on the overclocking options, but most likely will go ahead with it.
Do I need to purchase anything else for the body?
I have already purchased a keyboard and mouse.
Don't I need a CD reader for the computer?
The Eizo monitor suggested is listed at $400 are there better deals and should I wait for cheaper 2560x?????
Is having a 1920 x 1080 monitor going to cap me a lot?
Are there any other software other than Windows that I need?
Isn't there a sound card or something for audio?
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Can only answer 2 :
-> You don't need a CD (I guess you mean DVD/Blueray) as long as you have an USB key on which you put your windows installation files. A good DVD reader/burner from LG or Liteon is 20$ tho. Also if you buy boxed games you'll need one.
-> Most (all) motherboards have a good audio chip now, so unless you need a specific one you don't have to buy a separate soundcard anymore.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportDocument/c03531719/c03513492.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.techspot.com/articles-info/504/images/Image_07S.jpg)
