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Do you guys seriously think that the Jaedong vs tempest game was that way just because tempest has good macro?
Board doesn't hit back
You cant say that tempest won because his macro is "9".
You also need to take Jaedongs micro macro and overall style, map and other factors too.
Maybe jaedong made some mistakes? That happens too.
And now matter how you put it, better player always wins, Tempest happened to be the better player in that game.
I am discluding BO wins from this list now (4pool against 14cc for example)
ALSO, you can do multiple drops at once and uber harassing, if you have the skills. No-one has that uber skills in this game at the moment. But still, maybe you can trade a bit of macro time for that epic harassment going on in 2 places at once.
That makes BW more interesting in e-sports than starcraft 2 since there is more styles.
That and the fact that no matter how you put it, BW will require more skill.
You can't just go around that.
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On December 27 2008 10:56 ManWithCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2008 01:59 maybenexttime wrote:
To support what Unentschieden has just said, just imagine if they removed smart-casting - suddenly the Storm's AoE size could back to BW's size. The same would happen for all other kinda of spells and gameplay mechanics. Just imagine Warp-in without MBS - a dumbed down Recall. ;; What makes you think that all spells would be instantly reverted back to their bw counterparts? BW and SC2 have completely different balance problems. For instance in bw if someone wanted to do 3 simultaneous storm drops at the same time in late game each storm drop would be separated by at least a few seconds, likely more given a normal situation and then the defender would at least have a chance to defend against it. Now take SC2 with how things currently are with or without smart cast someone could do 4 simultaneous storm drops with maybe a second separating each one, even with the reduced radius that seems like a shit ton harder to defend against.
I didn't mean they'd make them BW size. Just that plenty of spells (and not only spells) would have to be rebalanced...
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On December 26 2008 11:01 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 02:44 Dariush wrote:On December 24 2008 22:57 inReacH wrote:
I find it kind of strange that I've never seen anyone point out that WC3 base management is the easiest thing on the planet(not to mention there is little opportunity for mid-late game harassment) and yet there is still dominance in the game from a small number of players.
I don't read the SC2 forum much, I would be surprised if FA hasn't mentioned this before but it should be quite a convincing point. That's the whole point, anti MBS/automine people, like me, don't want a micro centric game. We want the option to choose our style. I don't even want to start again...this was discussed to death. Thank god blizzard isn't listening to people like you. Let's take a look at an example just off the top of my head. This is Jaedong vs Tempest, Tempest has a macro rating of over 9 given by the GOMTV announcers and others. In this game, there is absolutely no harassment in this game and Tempest just uses many units to beat a much better player. http://www.gomtv.net/videos/487This is Bisu vs Hoejja, Bisu uses reaver drops, DT drops and zealot/goon drops to completely overwhelm the lesser skilled player. Not only do these many small confrontations lead to the better player crushing the worse player with amazing decision making and control, but it makes for a far far far more exciting game to watch. http://www.gomtv.net/videos/505
Wow...I practically grew up with Starcraft, I know more about it than you think, I played tens of thousands of games, and they should listen to you with your fucked up logic?
They shouldn't listen to anyone as far as I'm concerned, I have faith in the best game makers...but it's natural for me and some others to worry about things like MBS/automine, and to discuss them.
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On December 27 2008 16:32 MuR)Ernu wrote:
Do you guys seriously think that the Jaedong vs tempest game was that way just because tempest has good macro?
Board doesn't hit back
You cant say that tempest won because his macro is "9".
You also need to take Jaedongs micro macro and overall style, map and other factors too.
Maybe jaedong made some mistakes? That happens too.
And now matter how you put it, better player always wins, Tempest happened to be the better player in that game.
I am discluding BO wins from this list now (4pool against 14cc for example)
ALSO, you can do multiple drops at once and uber harassing, if you have the skills. No-one has that uber skills in this game at the moment. But still, maybe you can trade a bit of macro time for that epic harassment going on in 2 places at once.
That makes BW more interesting in e-sports than starcraft 2 since there is more styles.
That and the fact that no matter how you put it, BW will require more skill.
You can't just go around that.
I dunno man, I thought watching tempest sit in his base and mass units then attack move jaedong was pretty exciting. You can hear all the spectators going wild too, it wasn't because Jaedong was losing, they were just all in supreme awe of tempest's impecable 2base macro and attack move.
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On December 28 2008 09:52 lwstupidus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2008 16:32 MuR)Ernu wrote:
Do you guys seriously think that the Jaedong vs tempest game was that way just because tempest has good macro?
Board doesn't hit back
You cant say that tempest won because his macro is "9".
You also need to take Jaedongs micro macro and overall style, map and other factors too.
Maybe jaedong made some mistakes? That happens too.
And now matter how you put it, better player always wins, Tempest happened to be the better player in that game.
I am discluding BO wins from this list now (4pool against 14cc for example)
ALSO, you can do multiple drops at once and uber harassing, if you have the skills. No-one has that uber skills in this game at the moment. But still, maybe you can trade a bit of macro time for that epic harassment going on in 2 places at once.
That makes BW more interesting in e-sports than starcraft 2 since there is more styles.
That and the fact that no matter how you put it, BW will require more skill.
You can't just go around that. I dunno man, I thought watching tempest sit in his base and mass units then attack move jaedong was pretty exciting. You can hear all the spectators going wild too, it wasn't because Jaedong was losing, they were just all in supreme awe of tempest's impecable 2base macro and attack move.
Dude the person you quoted won't understand you are being sarcastic..
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On December 27 2008 10:38 inReacH wrote:
First off, I had no idea that anyone from korea followed american football that closely.
Second, if you think that's all oov does then you're crazy.
Style is about what you do not about how the game allows you to do it, when korean announcers talk about flashes macro they emphasize economy management which is still in the game.
Sorry buddy, he owned you.
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Eh atleast we can see some gameplay to know how the game is going still make Mining like it was in BW and i do not care much for MBS aslong as if you have 4 gateways and you click z it will only make 1 Zeal and not 4.
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Really boring to watch. Vulture+Tank > Infantry
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On December 29 2008 07:36 Augury wrote:
Really boring to watch. Vulture+Tank > Infantry
what did you expect from "noobs"
they wont make an interesting game
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Russian Federation1613 Posts
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^^The most pivotal moment in that game imo
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By the way, this encounter is another proof that the game was either staged or the Protoss was a newb - even an average player knows how certain units (especially such bread and butter units in a given match-up) fare against other units. And even if it was their first game in that build (unlikely) then you should be easily tell if your unit is winning or losing in a one on one fight... ;p
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that fight was close. I think if the stalker would have had one more shots, it had won.
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I was thinking about that first encounter too.
Didn't he just stand still with the stalker because the marauder's attack slows down a hit target? So if he would have tried to run he would just have been killed anyway.
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On December 31 2008 20:09 ParasitJonte wrote:
I was thinking about that first encounter too.
Didn't he just stand still with the stalker because the marauder's attack slows down a hit target? So if he would have tried to run he would just have been killed anyway.
Yep and suprisingly the Protossplayer never researched Blink which really suprised me. Wasn´t that the point of the unit? What is next, Siegetank without Siegetech?
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On December 31 2008 20:09 ParasitJonte wrote:
I was thinking about that first encounter too.
Didn't he just stand still with the stalker because the marauder's attack slows down a hit target? So if he would have tried to run he would just have been killed anyway.
Doesn't slow mechanical units as far as I know.
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On December 31 2008 17:12 Jenia6109 wrote:
Well this saved the thread, too much arguing and whining on the same issues - -;;
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On January 01 2009 00:27 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2008 20:09 ParasitJonte wrote:
I was thinking about that first encounter too.
Didn't he just stand still with the stalker because the marauder's attack slows down a hit target? So if he would have tried to run he would just have been killed anyway. Doesn't slow mechanical units as far as I know.
You can see the Stalkers getting slowed by Marauders concussion grenades in the vid.
But youd think bringing a stalker + 1 probe might have helped a bit.
You know, i was thinking a bit about how Blizzard is trying to pitch the game to new players, and seemingly leaving alot of the hardcore people feeling left out. And i wondered if there really is any other way. I mean, if Blizzard was to put out SC2 with total focus and product placement geared towards pro minded pre existing fanbase, it would hinder sales and initial fanbase. But it might be smart for them to just kiss noob ass for the first game, then once everyone is hooked and familiar with the game they will polish it moreso for the experienced player mindset. Kinda like the "easy to learn, difficult to master" theory but applied to marketing. So it would be "dumb it down for initial release, then once everyones hooked and familiar with the product take that to the next level".
I seriously doubt the true genius of SC2 will kick in until at least the first expansion comes out. Not trying to sell the first game short since its not even out yet, but you know how expansions go.
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On December 29 2008 07:36 Augury wrote:
Really boring to watch. Vulture+Tank > Infantry
Agreed, the patented press siege mode and attack move vultures is one of my favorite parts of TvP.
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Sweden33723 Posts
Dustin Browder made a comment in the Blizz thread for the battle report:
No worries dude, I'm a game designer, not a game commentator. There are lots of professional commentators all over the world, but I am one of the few people in the world right now that knows the game really well. I'm afraid you're stuck with me until we go Beta. Then the professionals can take over and I can just watch.=)
I saw some concerns that this game wasn't "real." It is in fact a real game. We looked through a big list of games (two dozen or so) that had already been played (real games with 2 players trying to kill each other) and we picked the best ones. We showed some of these at Blizzcon and now we have this one up for everyone to see. By the very nature of how we capture the video for the game we had to watch it several times before we did the audio so it wasn't my first time seeing it (which is why sometimes I get ahead of myself), but it was a live game with real players when it was being played.
Yes, Zealot charge really did finish training at that crucial moment. =)
I don't know when the next one is coming. We have some things I want to get in and make look somewhat presentable before we fire up the next one, but I hope it's soon.
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=13769837645&sid=3000&pageNo=4
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EPT![[image loading]](http://s1.ipicture.ru/uploads/081230/pUWrfbs2Jr.jpg)
