[EP1] Starcraft 2 Battle Report #1 - Page 19

On December 24 2008 22:57 inReacH wrote:
I find it kind of strange that I've never seen anyone point out that WC3 base management is the easiest thing on the planet(not to mention there is little opportunity for mid-late game harassment) and yet there is still dominance in the game from a small number of players.

I don't read the SC2 forum much, I would be surprised if FA hasn't mentioned this before but it should be quite a convincing point.

On December 24 2008 20:04 mikneb wrote:
Been lurking the forums for a decent amount of time now, and this is the only thread thus far that prompted me to register.

Let me get this out of the way. I'm looking forward to SC2. I have complete faith in Blizzard, who has never (in my knowledge), released a bad game. Even WoW, depending on which camp you are in about that game, is an extremely polished and enjoyable game to play on a mechanical and overall meta-game level.

Here's my gripe with SC2, after having watched the video:

I'm fairly new to the game. And I know as a Korean that that makes for the ultimate heresy. But I've come to the point that I understand that professional players are professionals because they have completely mastered the utter clunkiness of the UI. You can only select 12 units, you can only hotkey 1 building, AI pathing is completely retarded sometimes. They can micro and macro on a ridiculous level simultaneously.

And I can understand why a new improved sequel to a game should also include new and improved UI modifications to make things more efficient. It's counter-intuitive to say otherwise.

But here's the thing: things that marginalize and lower the skill ceiling is going to be the death of the competitive scene. Even with BW, which is a game that has the most intensive skill ceiling I've ever played.

I come from competitive CS 1.6. We had our own situation like this, with CS: Source coming out. It was prettier, by far, but on a mechanical level, things were far easier. Now here's the thing. I was very good at 1.6, so most of that immediately translated over to Source. Whereas I would go 40-10ish as a ratio in a random pub, I went 100-3 ratio over in Source. It was just that easy. But I was also getting killed in some random instances. People were running at me full speed across the map, zigzagging and spraying a TMP at me full-auto, and somehow headshot me and killed me. That would never have happened in 1.6, the bullets would be shooting at the sky if someone tried that.

And then the community split between both games. Both games suffered as a result. 1.6 lost alot of desperately needed influx of new players and pubbers to sustain its competitive growth, and Source just floundered on a highly competitive level with the boring gameplay. People who appreciated the deep skill curve and the nuances of the movement/aiming/recoil mechanics to the original 1.6 refused to touch Source. People who found Source easier and more enjoyable argued that their game was the future as that with EVERYONE having the advantage of an easier recoil system, you had to be THAT much quicker to be better.

But that's the thing. That's awful logic. MBS and Automine worries me, and rightly so. Yes, it'll give an equal advantage to everyone all across the board, but that is inherently faulty logic.

Let's say you're going 1 on 1 in shooting a basketball with a Pro. You were pretty good during high school, and fairly decent in college, but were nowhere near good enough to go Pro, even then, you played enough to know what you're doing.

A Pro would make their shot 9/10 times. You make it 6/10 times. This is a situation that would be attributed to Brood Wars, and my beloved 1.6.

Now, let's add the Automine/MBS analogy into the mix. You make the rim twice as big in diameter. It's a vast improvement for the entire playerbase, performance wise, but here's the thing.

A Pro would make their shot 10/10 times. The dumbing down of the gameplay mechanics just make him that much closer to perfection. But here's the catch. With the rim twice as big, you make it 9/10 times. Suddenly you are competitive with the Pro, despite the advantage being ubiquitous.

People watch spectator video games to witness things that they could never pull off. No one here would be interested in watching Muta harass with a simultaneous push of their army if they could not appreciate how difficult it is to macro your base/economy, and at the same time rally and position your units, while microing Muta.

The game will no doubt be enjoyable. I'm really looking forward to it.

But if MBS/Automine stay in, it's really going to threaten the skill ceiling, and subsequently, the competitive landscape of the game. Mark my words, there is never room for a competitive scene (even one as big as BW's), for a game and its sequel. Ever.

I know this topic has been done to death, just wanted to toss my one cent out there.

On December 26 2008 02:44 Dariush wrote:


That's the whole point, anti MBS/automine people, like me, don't want a micro centric game. We want the option to choose our style.

I don't even want to start again...this was discussed to death.

On December 26 2008 11:01 inReacH wrote:


Thank god blizzard isn't listening to people like you.

Let's take a look at an example just off the top of my head.

This is Jaedong vs Tempest, Tempest has a macro rating of over 9 given by the GOMTV announcers and others. In this game, there is absolutely no harassment in this game and Tempest just uses many units to beat a much better player.
http://www.gomtv.net/videos/487

This is Bisu vs Hoejja, Bisu uses reaver drops, DT drops and zealot/goon drops to completely overwhelm the lesser skilled player. Not only do these many small confrontations lead to the better player crushing the worse player with amazing decision making and control, but it makes for a far far far more exciting game to watch.
http://www.gomtv.net/videos/505

I can't see how anyone can miss this. If you still don't get it read this.

*snipped out gigantic quote*

Imagine for a second the perfect RTS in your mind... if it allows a worse player to beat a better player simply because he made more units and A-Clicked into his opponents base as Tempest(worseplayer) did vs Jaedong(betterplayer) then SC2 is not the game for you.