EPThttp://www.starcraft2.com/features/battlereports/1.xml
[EP1] Starcraft 2 Battle Report #1
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
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Ry-Masta-T
United States478 Posts
http://www.starcraft2.com/features/battlereports/1.xml | ||
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geno
United States1404 Posts
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
rofl collossus raping 6scv's with 1attack beam thingy | ||
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PlutoNZ
New Zealand410 Posts
Watching a game between two players that know what they are doing is going to be awesome! Still on 0%.  | ||
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
On December 19 2008 17:26 SearingShadow wrote: Thanks so much for posting the link to the video! I'm downloading it now. This is so much better then the Q&As. Watching a game between two players that know what they are doing is going to be awesome! Still on 0%. + Show Spoiler + "know what they are doing" this toss is on 3 gates the hole game =p | ||
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milly9
Canada325 Posts
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ArC_man
United States2798 Posts
On December 19 2008 17:29 milly9 wrote: i really hate the style of commentating in this. they're like auctioneers. and they dont say anything interesting Well, they are trying to sell the game to people who never played SC before while also trying to show us the game has enough depth to reach a level similar to SC. Listening to Dustin's commentary at Blizzcon, I felt as if he took every opportunity to point out to us "Hey, micro still exists, look! This is like regular Starcraft!". | ||
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LaughingTulkas
United States1107 Posts
Still, nice to see the game in action in a higher quality vid. | ||
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
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hymn
Bulgaria832 Posts
Game looks really nice though. | ||
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rkarhu
Finland570 Posts
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Konni
Germany3044 Posts
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
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Ry-Masta-T
United States478 Posts
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SirNeb
United States243 Posts
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On December 19 2008 18:11 Ry-Masta-T wrote: http://www.starcraft2.com/movies/battlereports/battlereport1/SC2-battlereport-1_ESRB-downloader.exe As I already said, that takes me to eu.wowarmory.com for some reason. Tried all 3 browsers. Hence why I asked for someone to send me the installer. thanks anyway. anyone? | ||
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
![[image loading]](http://eu.starcraft2.com/features/battlereports/images/Kulas%20Ravine.jpg) I love the look of this. I guess they'll have a way to render map images in a simple, beautiful way like this. I forsee a "Export map as jpeg" feature. | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On December 19 2008 18:13 Nintu wrote: As I already said, that takes me to eu.wowarmory.com for some reason. Tried all 3 browsers. Hence why I asked for someone to send me the installer. thanks anyway. anyone? reuploading now | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On December 19 2008 18:18 thedeadhaji wrote: http://www.yousendit.com/download/TTZuTmZTZ2d6NE4zZUE9PQ ZOMG! <3 Love you dearly. | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
 P | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
Seriously, P having no army all the time (except some small harass forces) and T pumping out just 2 units and having like 2k min and 1k gas at all times for half of the game... Why no more units were shown? | ||
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On December 19 2008 18:25 thedeadhaji wrote: i love you too, even though i mistakenly convinced myself you were asian! PI think if you look at that picture deeply enough, you will see an inner asian that shines very bright. | ||
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On December 19 2008 18:26 Manit0u wrote: Bah, they really should get some pros to play this to make the reports... Seriously, P having no army all the time (except some small harass forces) and T pumping out just 2 units and having like 2k min and 1k gas at all times for half of the game... Why no more units were shown? Because if SC2 developers spent the time necessary to get a decent rank on iccup, then they'd be shitty developers. It's not an easy job that they have and they definitely don't have the time to sit down and practice mechanics and build orders. As for "bring in pros", they did and have. yellow vs some war 3 gamer and all those other broadcasts. It just makes me excited for walking into SC2 with above average mechanics and raping people. It's just good to finally see high-quality video releases, especially with commentary. Also, it's called Battlereport 1, which makes me even MORE excited. Now i'm excited for 2 and 3. What maps? What matchups? Who plays? Maybe they'll bring in good BW players to do them. Who knows?! | ||
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geno
United States1404 Posts
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
and the unit portraits are awesome, especially the CC | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
EDIT: Ah, thought it was the one from Blizzcon, well, a new one is even better. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7801 Posts
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
Other than that it looks amazing and fun. I hope some of the death animations get reworked. I hate seeing every protoss unit die in a generic blue explosion. I don't want long death animations that could confuse battles, but rather unique and distinctive animations. The colossus for example is too large to merely die in a generic small blue explosion. -_-;; I'm also concerned that a single proxy'd pylon can now pump units from anywhere on the map. Protoss simply has too much map control and maneuverability. The whole balance in BW of fighting on your side of the map giving you an advantage because your reinforcements get there first, that's completely destroyed if Protoss can get a single proxy pylon close to the Terran base. If you enjoyed containing Protoss in BW, I think you'll be unimpressed by the rework Protoss mobility has been given. I still think the colossus blows entirely way too much ass. Nothing that is that large should ever be that useless. I assume it costs more than a hellion, and a single hellion was killing probes faster than the Colossus attacking a group of 20 SCV's. Seriously needs a rework. I know it's a different game and will work completely differently, it's just hard to accept such drastic changes to certain matchups. I also wish we had seen some tech from either players. We just saw Marines, Hellions, Marauders and like 2 banshees vs zealots, stalkers and some colossi. I feel like we only saw like 20% of the units from both sides. I wanted to see Siege Tank abuse, dark templar and carriers. I hope the next battle report is a better display of the Race's arsenal. I also hope it's sooner rather than later. Despite my criticism and pessimism, I really enjoyed what I saw and am extremely excited for SC2. | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
Ok but seriously I wish I could sleep. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
On December 19 2008 19:37 Integra wrote: What's happening with you guys, I don't hear the usual "cries of doom" anymore, are you guys actually believing in that SC2 might turn out to be an awesome RTS? someone did call me? sorry, but everybody always knew from the start that this is gonna be an awesome RTS not better than BW but still maybe the 2 best | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Btw I think this is the game they used to take short cutscenes from for the Blizzcon PvT vid (the 2 minute one). I'm wondering why no blink for stalkers tho Btw, Marauders seem to turn around instantly, so I guess that answers the question of turning animations, right Ki_Do? | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 19 2008 19:36 Vasoline73 wrote: Ughh... such a bad spectator sport right now. Looks awesome in HD though.. cool of them to do this Lol what, what makes it a bad spectator sport? Everything is super clear. EDIT: Ahhh, Marauders are so cuuuuuute D: | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
gg wp re, map is loser choice | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
But it looked like you could move them well. | ||
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On December 19 2008 21:06 Ki_Do wrote: ok FA ye got me, can only whine about macro now gg wp re, map is loser choice Ionno. If I took anything away from this video it's that bad players still have shitty macro even with MBS and automine... Yeah, these newbs had lots of workers and strong economies because of automine, but their macro still sucked in many, many small and important ways. I remember those old games of those German TLers playing blizz developers and destroying them because they had a better understanding of SC economics, when to expand, etc.. It was fun to watch =D. I'm not trying to defend automine, I still don't like it. This game sure looks good anyway though. And to be honest, after watching this video and a few of the others.. I can't really imagine SC2 without automine. It just seems to integrated into the gameplay now that taking it out would feel more artificial than the gas mechanic.. o_o In a sick and disgusting way I can almost see what people meant by automine. This game between blizz developers, their economy and worker production was quite balanced with eachother. And I guess this will more clearly promote such strategical concepts as when to stop making workers, cutting workers for timing pushes and junk like that, aswell as worker harass and the important of each individual worker loss. I'm gonna miss the natural mechanical advantage I have over a lot of other players simply because I am faster and accustomed to telling workers to mine, but for the first time in my life I think I can come to terms with Automine.. (Wow, coupled with defending lastshadow earlier, I've become everything i've ever hated.) | ||
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geno
United States1404 Posts
On December 19 2008 21:07 FrozenArbiter wrote: Well I was curious too, since they didn't talk much about it in the Q&A But it looked like you could move them well.Yeah it looked good, but you have to remember, watching two people play on battle.net with extra high latency will look smooth too. I doubt there is any kind of latency thing going on in SC2, but playing it and watching it are certainly two different things. (I do think you're right though )On December 19 2008 20:59 FrozenArbiter wrote: Lol what, what makes it a bad spectator sport? Everything is super clear. I have to agree, I think it looks pretty good as a spectator sport right now. The biggest turn-offs for it from this video were the small battle sizes, and fake-excitement quality of the commentating, but neither of those is the game's fault. On December 19 2008 19:38 Nintu wrote: I'm very impressed. One of my only real concerns is the same that's been voiced a thousand times before. I hope that wasn't the fastest game speed. Hopefully it was 2 notches below the fastest because everything was pretty.. easy to handle. Looked like everything would have been ezpz to do at that speed. 100 apm tops necessary for that stuff. So again, I hope there are 2 speeds faster than that. To do what they were doing, sure. I think a higher APM player will show a much different game than the one that those two played though, with much larger armies, and better/more use of expansions. At least I hope so (I would love to see like Blizzard's best internal players, or familiarize some external high-APM talent with the game for the next one!). Anyways, I'm pretty sure there are faster game modes if they were playing on the same speed as it was set at Blizzcon which it looked like it was. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
Maps really look like starcraft ones, wonder how heavy promaps will be... | ||
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WiljushkA
Serbia1416 Posts
btw map looks tiny -- | ||
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On December 19 2008 21:20 Ki_Do wrote: Their map making skills have improved it seems Maps really look like starcraft ones, wonder how heavy promaps will be... Yeah, you have to realize that when Starcraft came out, there was no sophisticated e-sport to observe and model it after. After 10 years of competitive play and such, it will be much easier for Blizzard to create a polished, balanced product. With the resources they have now, the experience and e-sports scene to base it off of, and the GIGANTIC audience, SC2 will be balanced much faster and appropriately. | ||
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geno
United States1404 Posts
On December 19 2008 21:20 Nintu wrote: Ionno. If I took anything away from this video it's that bad players still have shitty macro even with MBS and automine... Hahaha, thats the biggest thing I took away from this video as well. MBS doesn't mean anything when you can't remember to use it during battles, lol. Automine did help them for sure I think, but not as much as expanding a bit more at better times would have, which it can't make up for. edit: analyzing a more-or-less VOD of SC2 for play level feels weird | ||
GTR
51454 Posts
http://eu.starcraft2.com/movies/battlereports/battlereport1/battlereport_01.flv | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
i noticed something, marauders can dance almost instantly, but after they shoot, they some time(very small btw) to move again, thats not a whine but maybe its a balance issue? Kim could micro them against zealots, maybe to avoid imbalance they made this delay ps: Im hyped to see a macro focused match up TvZ And nice mutalisk stack micro | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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nataziel
Australia1455 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On December 19 2008 22:18 TonyL2 wrote: Interesting, that probes when they've lost their shield it takes a long amount of time before it first regenerates them again, but after that it's rapid. I don't think that was in BW was it? it was a continous ~1 shield point/sec in bw | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 19 2008 21:56 Ki_Do wrote: Hey FA i noticed something, marauders can dance almost instantly, but after they shoot, they some time(very small btw) to move again, thats not a whine but maybe its a balance issue? Kim could micro them against zealots, maybe to avoid imbalance they made this delay ps: Im hyped to see a macro focused match up TvZ And nice mutalisk stack micro I have a hard time telling if it's just dependant on how quickly he clicks move or not o_O It seems sometimes they move instantly, sometimes not. Lol I love how they've sneaked that 0.1 second picture into the Blizzard-logo animation I still think the reaver > the colossus as far as excitement goes | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
and high level of play? T.T | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
On December 19 2008 22:44 FrozenArbiter wrote: I have a hard time telling if it's just dependant on how quickly he clicks move or not o_O It seems sometimes they move instantly, sometimes not. Lol I love how they've sneaked that 0.1 second picture into the Blizzard-logo animation I still think the reaver > the colossus as far as excitement goes mm, i see, well, the most important thing is that the unit response seems great, and they really got the point in how to add that to the game again. | ||
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iloahz
United States964 Posts
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Chuiu
3470 Posts
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ForVengeance
United States111 Posts
Also, i think 75 percent of what ive hated so far about SC2 is the people who are playing it. Its hard to watch people just let their units die and have no plan of attack. These players dont even try to gain positional advantage at all in skirmishes. They just stand toe to toe and fight. I feel like once better people get their hands on the game alot more interesting pre-emptive tactics will be seen, since everything is so much more mobile in SC2. The game seems ok, i hope there will be at least a couple tank strats vs protoss though. It just doesnt seem natural having no tanks vs protoss. | ||
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ForVengeance
United States111 Posts
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
The fact that they never really used siege tanks, carriers etc was a huge dissapointment :p oh well. I really don't like that most of the terran mech units have this boring "phew phew" sound and also a really slow rate of fire. The above are really minor issues to me though. The biggest issue and the one that will affect SC2 as an e-sport is that fact that the colors and textures are all so subtle and dark/grayish, this make for a very messed up picture when viewing the game online on streams, its hard to see what is going on. My suggestions would be to A ) Make stronger sillouetes for each unit B ) Make stronger colors on each units to help differentiate them from one another. C ) Still keep that rustic and old feel to the textures of the terran units though, they are not supposed to be shiny and bright like Protoss. | ||
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Bash
Finland1533 Posts
Anyway, what people here need to realize and remember is that that game was obviously somewhat conducted in advance, it wasn't too long, not too short either, it didn't showcase ALL units because that's too much to take in at a time for a newb, and mostly left the late-late game units out of the equation so that people still have something to look forward to in future battlereports. It's clear that what the commentators say is either scripted to some extent, or they are talking over a replay they watched a few times already. This video isn't supposed to mimic a pro BW game and commentary, it's an advert. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
Even though the match was obviously pre-planned it was a good show. It´s a bit disappointing that we didn´t see more unitvariety though, hopefully in the full game unit diversety will be more apealing. | ||
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ZhenMiChan
Netherlands1181 Posts
 nice blizzard | ||
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parkin
1080 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
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Nebula
England780 Posts
:D | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On December 20 2008 01:16 FrozenArbiter wrote: I don't know if the game was pre-planned but they had obviously seen it played before. If it was pre-planned it seems they could have made it closer? For observers it´s supposed to be obvious as to WHY a party wins and the other loses. A closer match wouldn´t have been as "clean" concerning who was doing good and why. That is also why they keept using (almost) only Marauders/Hellions + a few banshees vs. Zealots/Stalkers + a few Colossi. It was clearly no accident that "Charge" research finished in the middle of a Marauder/Zealot skirmish - the effect was very notable. | ||
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Itachii
Poland12466 Posts
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arctics86
Germany797 Posts
http://rapidshare.com/files/174890297/1-battlereport-SC2_-TvP.part1.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/174904251/1-battlereport-SC2_-TvP.part2.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/174905877/1-battlereport-SC2_-TvP.part3.rar no pass | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On December 19 2008 18:27 Nintu wrote: I think if you look at that picture deeply enough, you will see an inner asian that shines very bright. you mean you glow red when you're drunk? ^_^ | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On December 20 2008 01:24 Nebula wrote: Laughed outloud when they said something along the lines of "in this obviously high level match" :D Yeah so did I hahaha | ||
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Ghastly
United States32 Posts
On December 20 2008 01:19 Ki_Do wrote:marauder dance Even if it was pre-planned, I'm glad they showed us. It proved you can still dance units in SC2, and that animations don't put a massive crimp in that. Heck, slow Marauders were able to dance against Zealots pretty well. | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
I hope this put all the "OMG NOOBS WILL MACRO LIKE OOV" fires down. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
On December 20 2008 03:46 D10 wrote: It was a decent mid level match I hope this put all the "OMG NOOBS WILL MACRO LIKE OOV" fires down. yeah but the problem perdures | ||
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SlickR12345
Macedonia408 Posts
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
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Bash
Finland1533 Posts
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
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Ghastly
United States32 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
And I agree with Raithed, I also thought the commentary was fine. | ||
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Gregsen
Germany667 Posts
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SirNeb
United States243 Posts
On December 20 2008 05:15 Gregsen wrote: Man I'm absolutly unhappy with those Marauders. They look like those Nightelf Druids from WC3 and seem totally unfitting to Terrans... just out of place. They look cool but I don't like how they shoot these fireballs. | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
Also, what happened to marauders wall climbing and stalker blink ? | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On December 20 2008 05:23 FrozenArbiter wrote: Marauders never climbed walls (that's reapers) and stalkers still have blink as far as I know (the video is older than blizzcon), he just never used it/researched it. Lol what a n00b, no wonder he lost, he didnt use a major upgrade from one of his most used units. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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Eury
Sweden1126 Posts
Their target audience is probably a much broader, more casual audience and based on the reaction from other more general gaming sites/blogs/forums this video was a tremendous success. People really enjoyed it, especially the commentating. Only real complain I saw was about the release date. Personally I don't think the terran player was that bad, that Marauders micro against the Zealots was pretty neat. If I recall David Kim was a pretty decent Starcraft player before joining Relic and is now currently on the SC 2 balance team. | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On December 20 2008 05:45 Eury wrote: Keep in mind that this Battle Report probably wasn't target for the hardcore TL crowd that are used with better players and commentating. Their target audience is probably a much broader, more casual audience and based on the reaction from other more general gaming sites/blogs/forums this video was a tremendous success. People really enjoyed it, especially the commentating. Only real complain I saw was about the release date. Personally I don't think the terran player was that bad, that Marauders micro against the Zealots was pretty neat. If I recall David Kim was a pretty decent Starcraft player before joining Relic and is now currently on the SC 2 balance team. i believe he used to play wtih xellos back in the day. | ||
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Loverman
Romania266 Posts
.As a general observation about the Collossus, I think it's actually a high-er tier unit than the reaver (Maybe like in between reaver/carrier). The thing is I don't really see it as getting Collossus purely for harass or as a support force for a small army. I think they're role fits better in 100+ food armies were they're range and shields are upgraded and they're both allowed to dish out more damage as well as adding more maneuvrability to an attack or while defending a position. | ||
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
not gonna comment on how well they played, they're devs so naturally they're not gonna be high level it's fine for other games, but for starcraft this still has waaays to go | ||
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hiroxx
Ireland115 Posts
As for commentary - it just sounds like a big advertisement and they seem to be unnecessarily enthusiastic at points for no reason (again - its like a big advert) | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 20 2008 05:55 .risingdragoon wrote: its ok I guess, nowhere near as dynamic as sc. units clump up together, a dozen units doesn't look like a dozen, the rock barricade's a lame wc3 carryover, and the group movements for ground units look oily, like a slithering snake while the air units are rigid and awkward. not gonna comment on how well they played, they're devs so naturally they're not gonna be high level it's fine for other games, but for starcraft this still has waaays to go I hate you. ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Tadzio00/rocfla2_1.jpg) Anyway, I know I'm repeating myself but I don't get how people complain about the casting, they have > 0 < dead time, I think they are pretty professional. I'd like if they talked more about things in the game (ie how a typical TvP goes inhouse, how things have changed.. etc) rather than what's happening but overall I think they did a great job. | ||
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Eury
Sweden1126 Posts
Korean map makers use the same mechanic for their maps in Starcraft by placing 10 neutral temple on top of each other. What I would like to see improved upon at the most is probably the death animations and sounds for the units. Blizzard have always been good at that no matter what game it is so I expect it will have changed for the better when the beta starts. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
Also its easy to observe. You can totally see whats going on etc. At least for me o.,o | ||
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Eury
Sweden1126 Posts
On December 20 2008 06:04 G.s)NarutO wrote: nice game! looks awesome. I want to play.. now T_T Also its easy to observe. You can totally see whats going on etc. At least for me o.,o It can still get improved upon though. Like improving some of the animations and last time I watched zerg the zerg units kinda blend in into the creep. Hopefully Blizzard can sort that out with some constructive feedback from the fans. | ||
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
Yeah, it's one of the gimmickier aspect of mapping. Even so, those barricades in ur pic are well-designed. The rocks in the video are the same ones from wc3 singleplayer, ones you hit a few times and they crumble to dust. And what about the other points? They're valid concerns, cus I can care less if only sc wasn't so so good. A step backwards would just be too sad. | ||
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funkie
Venezuela9374 Posts
they were not, and will never be clean. NASTY!!!!!!!!!!adfad | ||
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funkie
Venezuela9374 Posts
Also the game looks so sharp, and so bright, it's awesome., I really like what they are doing, but I wish they'd stop saying "Alpha" and bring the beta .Oh well, it's looking good so far I guess. | ||
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SlickR12345
Macedonia408 Posts
The only problem i have is how powerful marauders are. They completly raped stalkers, were even decent against zealots and totally raped colossus as well + they have the slowing down passive ability. Though the level of play was not high at all, protoss player didn't really play well, poor strategy, poor tactics, poor scouting, poor attacks and he didn't use any of the protoss abilities. But this video was probably meant for the more casual audience and judging by the responces its a success. | ||
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GTR
51454 Posts
On December 20 2008 05:53 Mora wrote: i believe he used to play wtih xellos back in the day. you worked with him didn't you? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5559 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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Bekele
Canada47 Posts
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FREEloss_ca
Canada603 Posts
Maybe the guys playing are just bad, but I hope in starcraft players will be able to reach unit max in 14-16 minutes and such. That entire game was filled with tiny skirmishes more or less. | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On December 20 2008 06:04 FrozenArbiter wrote: I hate you. Anyway, I know I'm repeating myself but I don't get how people complain about the casting, they have > 0 < dead time, I think they are pretty professional. I'd like if they talked more about things in the game (ie how a typical TvP goes inhouse, how things have changed.. etc) rather than what's happening but overall I think they did a great job. It wasn't terrible but it's very clear that the one guy hasn't watched a single SC1 commentary... "Proxy Pylon as we've been calling it in Alpha" | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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d.arkive
United States843 Posts
Thanks blizzard! | ||
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SlickR12345
Macedonia408 Posts
On December 20 2008 07:55 FREEloss_ca wrote: There was little to no micro in that game...the probe micro was the most impressive thing...and probably some of the maruader dancing. Maybe the guys playing are just bad, but I hope in starcraft players will be able to reach unit max in 14-16 minutes and such. That entire game was filled with tiny skirmishes more or less. I agree that some animations should be way reduced or cut, but hey its still in alpha and when the beta starts if there are animation problems players can point it out and it should be fixed. | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
He's a bad caster.. it's a good game.. not a big deal. He probably watches WC3 vods and user AC's from WCR if anything.. "Both players have put down at least one farm" -He calls an SCV a supple depot "'already' mining from it(assimilator) with a total of three probes" "Is it going to be able to regenerate it's sheilds" -as though this is the determining factor in it's survival, even though it is a much faster unit and still had like 18 life left "A proxy pylon as we've come to call it in alpha" -as though they invented this term Just annoying: "That assimilator is 'absolutely' finished" "We do have that marine laying down 'a ton' of pressure on that scouting probe" -(1 marine/1probe) This man cannot cast a game without using the word kite at least once. | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7797/thorki7.jpg) None of those are Thors.. nor are they themselves all the same thing (2mauraders beside each other from the front/back and SCV wireframe) | ||
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SixSongs
Poland1455 Posts
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merz
Sweden2760 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On December 20 2008 08:22 inReacH wrote: Also.. terran needs some work done on all their stuff looking the same None of those are Thors.. nor are they themselves all the same thing (2mauraders beside each other from the front/back and SCV wireframe) Actually its very clear when you actually play the game. I think VODs of SC2 will have to be in perfect HD to be fully watchable. | ||
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
sc vods are all watchable cus the units are distinct. | ||
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Eury
Sweden1126 Posts
Obviously Tasteless and co are better but then again it is their job. | ||
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
If the people who know their games the best aren't their target audience, who is? People who go through a different game every month? SC ~40% lifetime sales is in Korea, and people still say it's not a good thing to make it as deep as possible? Casual fans don't need to be so catered to in multiplayer, cus 1. there's singleplayer, 2. they're casual, so play with other casuals, even iccupers do this, and 3. they'll quit the game in a few months anyway, unless they want to get better in which case they won't be casuals no more. Seriously drop that argument. It's StarCraft, it'll make the sales target either way, so why not make cleaner graphics for spectator AND deeper controls for competition? Casuals will be the first to moan about things they don't understand, and the first to abandon the game for other money-grabbing games. | ||
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GTR
51454 Posts
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On December 20 2008 08:51 Zoler wrote: Actually its very clear when you actually play the game. I think VODs of SC2 will have to be in perfect HD to be fully watchable. Aren't you the guy who played at dreamhack and now reference that fact in every single post you make? I have played it.. I played more then anyone else at blizzcon and I have 8 posters to prove it.. Zerg looks pretty bad both in game and in video and this is just more of that... If 2 dragoons next to each other looks like a reaver in SC1 do you not think that would be a problem.. and the SCV wireframe looks way too much like a thor also. Anyways I love the game and think it's beautiful but some things need to be tweaked. | ||
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rudboi
United States3 Posts
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
the attack animations and unit response were the most important atm(its good and satisfying but they can turn it even better), but i dont know, is this game older than Yellow vs Sonkie? if it is, for the first time i think im a bit optimistic about it. | ||
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PobTheCad
Australia893 Posts
On December 20 2008 09:21 rudboi wrote: Quality video. However, one of things that needs lots of work is death animations. In brood war, death animations were bright, colorful, and contrasted the environment surrounding the unit, whether it be similar units or landscape. Blue dragoon soup, red marine blood, explosions of scvs and other terran vehicles, zerg blood, all bright contrasting animations. Because death animations contrasted the environment, they served as a visual queue to determine who was winning or losing a battle. A vivid death animation is especially important for high-priority targets like workers. In the video, it seems like a lot of the terran infantry's and worker's death animations aren't flashy and don't really serve as a good visual queue. How many scvs are dead? Are those marauders dieing? Couldn't really tell who was winning. The protoss' units didn't suffer from the same problem, but aesthetically their death animations were just bland and aweful. Come on, a stupid blue explosion? Get creative. I want to see that havok physics engine put to use and see some stalker legs and heads flying around after those explosions. Looks like the technical importance of vivid death animations has been overlooked by the dev team. this may be one of the last things they perfectin the game? surely balance is more important to get right to a reasonable level before you work on death animations fully | ||
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d1v
Sweden868 Posts
 ero Hour, is it? I already miss the Vultures and their Spider Mines. Furthermore, where are the Siege Tanks? Has the concept been abandoned? | ||
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rudboi
United States3 Posts
On December 20 2008 09:36 PobTheCad wrote: this may be one of the last things they perfectin the game? surely balance is more important to get right to a reasonable level before you work on death animations fully From what I understand about typical game design, and correct me if i'm wrong, is that art assets and animations are the first things that dev teams work on and complete. Content and balance come later. Seems like it might be a little late in development to go back and perfect death animations. I hope im wrong. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 20 2008 09:33 Ki_Do wrote: Of all the things we saw the attack animations and unit response were the most important atm(its good and satisfying but they can turn it even better), but i dont know, is this game older than Yellow vs Sonkie? if it is, for the first time i think im a bit optimistic about it. Yeah, it's older than Yellow vs Sonkie - you can see clips from it here: http://www.gametrailers.com/player/41336.html?type=wmv On December 20 2008 09:39 d1v wrote: I found it to be entertaining, but I did not like the unit animations/designs at all. What's up with those flame thrower carrying Buggies, this is not C&C ero Hour, is it? I already miss the Vultures and their Spider Mines. Furthermore, where are the Siege Tanks? Has the concept been abandoned?The Siege Tank is still in the game - it just wasn't used in this one. | ||
disciple
9070 Posts
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
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L0thar
987 Posts
On December 20 2008 09:53 disciple wrote: the game was fun to watch, but there were several things which annoyed me... I really didnt knew the marine is that fast, its completely pointless like it was not enough that the terran could wall-in and deny late scouting... I see the game devs are trying to get as much units as possible involved in the BOs, we should wait for the next BR and see if the siege tank concept in TvP is really abandoned. My overall impression is that in general the scouting is made easier to deny, especially given the fact that with the absence of spider mines the toss is not forced to get early obs for detection. Are you aware that Observers don't require any tech building now, they can be built straight from the robotic facility? If something, Protoss scouting (and detecting) abilities were buffed in SC2. Especially comparing to other races... | ||
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Augury
United States758 Posts
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myIRE
Belgium229 Posts
and , I dunno, probably they just zoomed out but the difference between protoss units was barely noticable. And the worse of all, they were talking about armor types, like light armor and whatever, this reminds of wc3 armor types, which i like and dont like at the same time. Hopefully they wont introduce more then 2,3 types. On the positive note, it looks shiny and cute, somewhat C&C-style-ish, which can be bad for SC-fans, since the original game is nothing like C&C. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On December 19 2008 18:13 Nintu wrote: I love the look of this. I guess they'll have a way to render map images in a simple, beautiful way like this. I forsee a "Export map as jpeg" feature. Wow, I love the way that map preview looks. The commentary was pretty good too. I like when they over-exaggerate the importance of some minor technique, as when the Protoss player dodged the marine and was able to scout the Terran base. Shows a lot of the balance as well. Please someone tell me though; what is the colossus' role? I see them being made, but they seem to suck, HARD. At one point, a colossus fires on a pile of SCV's three or four times and it doesn't kill any. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
On December 20 2008 11:11 Salv wrote: At one point, a colossus fires on a pile of SCV's three or four times and it doesn't kill any. And at one point it kills like 6 of them with 1 swipe. Not that I like the colossus anyway. Cliff scaling is ok, but I'd rather see reavers back in the game. | ||
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
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parkin
1080 Posts
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Abydos1
United States832 Posts
On December 20 2008 08:51 Zoler wrote: Actually its very clear when you actually play the game. I think VODs of SC2 will have to be in perfect HD to be fully watchable. If you download the high quality video its not too hard to identify units, unfortunately I don't foresee us getting HD streams from Korea any time soon. As several people have mentioned the death animations need to be worked on, it can be hard at times to tell who is winning a battle when in SC its very clear what's happening. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 20 2008 11:11 myIRE wrote: haha so true, it's weird that we go from vultures to hellions, it seems like a downgrade lol at the "wannabe-vulture-firebat" , seriously whats up with the whole "4-wheels" idea? we're on another planet.. HELLO? and , I dunno, probably they just zoomed out but the difference between protoss units was barely noticable. And the worse of all, they were talking about armor types, like light armor and whatever, this reminds of wc3 armor types, which i like and dont like at the same time. Hopefully they wont introduce more then 2,3 types. On the positive note, it looks shiny and cute, somewhat C&C-style-ish, which can be bad for SC-fans, since the original game is nothing like C&C. | ||
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SlickR12345
Macedonia408 Posts
On December 20 2008 08:22 inReacH wrote: Also.. terran needs some work done on all their stuff looking the same None of those are Thors.. nor are they themselves all the same thing (2mauraders beside each other from the front/back and SCV wireframe) If you watch the video in good quality, the units are clearly recognizable. In game depending on your resolution, you should be able to see them even better. I think 1024x768 resolution would work best. +the picture you posted is so fucked up, crap quality and small. What are you trying to achieve with it, except look stupid for it. | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
On December 20 2008 11:22 parkin wrote: What content of that clip may be inappropriate for children? some parents are retarded and dont want there children to see red blood in a video game | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
commentate those instead | ||
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swat
Australia142 Posts
/shrug. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
I agree with FA. Marauders are way too cool lookin. I think my plan to play terran in sc2 is lookin good with all the kewl lookin T units. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33390 Posts
I wonder what some of the other Korean speaking TL staff thinks? From my few observations on English language commentary, and the way people rate it, it seems that the TL crowd places a much higher premium on game knowledge, and not so much on pure entertainment value. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
"Holy christ mary and joseph!!!" "Wah happened?" "He's throwing down TONS of pressure on his opponent OMG I can't believe this!" *1 marine shooting at a probe* "Omg look at that shield regenerate!! He's sooo good!!!" Anyway I always thought the OGN casters are very knowledgeable, Overlord's hunches are often right on the money. | ||
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Eury
Sweden1126 Posts
On December 20 2008 13:03 swat wrote: Why are people complaining about the minimal death animations... if I remember correctly people were complaining before that the death animations were too much and distracted from the battle... /shrug. I wish the death animations were more distinctive and easier to make out, Marauders comes to mind for an example. Also I think it looks weird when units like Colossus pretty much got no death animation at all other than the blue cloud thing it shares with several other protoss units. How to fix that without being obstructing I'm don't know but I'm sure Blizzard can come up with something. Death sounds for the units need to be more distinctive and better also but considering this is alpha I'm not up in arms about it, hopefully it will be improved upon for the beta. I think the marine was perfect in that regard - both in animation and sound. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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251
United States1401 Posts
That video made Terran look very overpowered in this build, particularly the marauders. I would've really liked to see some DT harass or siege tank cliffing, things that we are accustomed to seeing in BW but in its new form here. It would be nice to see classic strategies mixed in with the new ones and new units. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
On December 20 2008 17:00 .risingdragoon wrote: Anyway I always thought the OGN casters are very knowledgeable, Overlord's hunches are often right on the money. they are, in most match ups they talk about the strategies better than some foreigns can execute that, and talk a lot about the mistakes of the players especially in late game TvZ when lots of expansions start to melt to imbalisks and terran balls | ||
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Mazar
United States135 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5559 Posts
On December 20 2008 15:33 Waxangel wrote: I'm pretty surprised you guys considered the commentary to be so poor. I guess as viewer of Korean pro-game TV, I'm very used to commentary having a somewhat 7:3 stress between keeping the game exciting, and providing useful strategic insight. I thought they did a great job on the first point, and the second point I didn't care about so much(because I assumed they were catering to a very broad, generic crowd). I wonder what some of the other Korean speaking TL staff thinks? From my few observations on English language commentary, and the way people rate it, it seems that the TL crowd places a much higher premium on game knowledge, and not so much on pure entertainment value. That type of commentary would've been much more appropriate if the players were actually at least decent (the T probably was, but his opponent didn't push him at all so the former played relaxed). ;; There was harld anything to get excited about. That Probe scouting was lucky - he kept moving into Rine's range even though the Probe was faster and somehow managed to save that Probe. T___T | ||
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Highways
Australia6103 Posts
http://games.on.net/file/23109/StarCraft_II_Battle_Report_1 | ||
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
Thinking about the gameplay and skill ceiling, i'm sure almost Any bw player who's learned to play on standard maps could macro almost perfect in this game, which seems like too many players able to play that well, but then i think that this was a newb game with not much else going on. I think it looks like newbs could actually have a really fun game just like this match, and that really high level players could do alot to throw newbs off. I bet with really agressive expanding and mass harassments, a better player could bring multitasking into the game with a fairly high ceiling on how much. The game needs to be manufactured to make sure this is true, i think, and mbs/automine Might not be that bad. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
really sad wont buy it | ||
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Wuselmops
Germany346 Posts
after all, the colossus seems like a good replacement for the reaver imho. the artwork is great, it goes perfect with an advanced alien race. it also adds to the strategic diversity, since reaver drop and high templar drop are very similar, but colossi by contrast cannot walk over water. they also seem micro-rewarding when properly used for hit+run attacks. the protoss in this battle for example could have retreated when the terran broke through the rocks at his expansion. (edit: if it really didn't kill the scvs that stopped moving it needs more damage of course.) i agree with most people here that many units, especially workers, need more distinct death sounds, i wasn't able to determine how many scvs were killed. they all make the same generic grunt. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
They start off their shitty show saying how fast paced is this game A 8 years old can control units perfectly at this speed so pissed how could they fail so hard looks even bigger fail than war3 | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
when units die they just dissapear?? Even in bw the "corpses" stay on the ground for some time | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On December 20 2008 20:46 Wuselmops wrote: i really miss spider mines Spider mines are still in the game? It's the nighthawk that has them tho. | ||
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GearitUP
United States337 Posts
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Wuselmops
Germany346 Posts
On December 20 2008 21:47 Zoler wrote: Spider mines are still in the game? It's the nighthawk that has them tho. oh, i wasn't up to date. | ||
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KaasZerg
Netherlands927 Posts
I miss the minedragging zealotbomb crazyness and dropplay. | ||
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HypnoticPoo
Singapore291 Posts
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On December 19 2008 17:29 milly9 wrote: i really hate the style of commentating in this. they're like auctioneers. and they dont say anything interesting I agree, they say a ton of stupid stuff. Like when they're like "he's placing a proxy pylon, as we've come to call it in this build of starcraft 2 alpha," like it wasn't called a proxy pylon before that build of starcraft 2 alpha... | ||
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genwar
Canada537 Posts
On December 20 2008 22:53 -orb- wrote: I agree, they say a ton of stupid stuff. Like when they're like "he's placing a proxy pylon, as we've come to call it in this build of starcraft 2 alpha," like it wasn't called a proxy pylon before that build of starcraft 2 alpha... you kinda have to realize that the ideal market for sc2 has never played sc1. | ||
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fearus
China2164 Posts
Because them protoss units looked a little fragile to me.. then again maybe Im biased. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 20 2008 22:53 -orb- wrote: I agree, they say a ton of stupid stuff. Like when they're like "he's placing a proxy pylon, as we've come to call it in this build of starcraft 2 alpha," like it wasn't called a proxy pylon before that build of starcraft 2 alpha... Why d you guys put so much importance on a simple phrase like that? It could be that it's a new term to him or it could be a word slip - either way it's not stupid.. On December 20 2008 23:17 fearus wrote: Are they still going with the protoss = strong but expensive philosophy? Because them protoss units looked a little fragile to me.. then again maybe Im biased. Terran tech units rape protoss tech units in SC as well tho (ie tanks/vultures out-perform zealots/goons). | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
First Terran produced unit is the marine with 40 hitpoints and 8 damage with a 50 mineral cost and 1 supply.So yes, protoss = strong but expensive philosophy. Oh, btw I wouldn't use the battlereport to make any definite conclusions of the strenghts or weaknesses since the players suck balls and just as well could had missmacroed the units horribly and the fact that the balancing will get done during beta, not during alpha. | ||
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
It isn't clear when a unit dies in SC2. | ||
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LonelyMargarita
1845 Posts
I'm really hoping their game was pre-planned. Perhaps tanks would in fact allow a terran to turtle, as opposed to just massing mauraders and those bikes to match the protoss army all game. The small battle after small battle didn't seem that fun to me at all. The watch towers seem horribly imbalanced for a game like starcraft (not to mention reeking of WC3). If they were in brood war it would always be zerg getting them over protoss over terran, since map control is race dependent. At least map-makers wont have to put them in. The transporting CC will obviously be countered by putting a min patch or doodad down on every island expansion. I'm trying to base judgments on both the video and the recent playable builds, but it's still really hard to tell because we don't know if the battle was scripted or if the players are bad. Either way, there are some pretty noticeable problems with the game. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On December 20 2008 21:55 GearitUP wrote: Anyone else believe the CC float is IMBA as fuck? I demand mineral patch on those islands... unfair IMO Not going to do anything unless the whole island can't be landed on. Scvs can be loaded into the command center now... Also, it seems like the ability to warp units in next to a pylon is a bit strong. But I guess gateways need to be upgraded into warp gates... | ||
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Woyn
United Kingdom1628 Posts
On December 20 2008 20:45 Boonbag wrote: this game is omfg terribad really sad wont buy it Shrewd point.. | ||
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Puosu
6985 Posts
Only concern is the speed, like many already said, it looks a little bit slow right now. | ||
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On December 21 2008 03:00 GunsofthePatriots wrote: The terran player seemed like a higher level player, but the protoss did terrible... His macro was not even good. The terran player is Korean witch means in D&D terms +2 dexterity +2 Inteligence Endurance for the purpose of sitting for long periods of time +5 bonus on your skill test of sc match and sc knowledge and Asian heritage, you can use any asian only magical item Also you have Favorite enemy North Korean and Japanese (or not ?) | ||
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GogoKodo
Canada1785 Posts
I think it makes sense to point it out. For viewers who aren't familiar with Starcraft, or at least not the competitive side. Also, the use of 'proxy pylon' in SC1 is different than here because in SC1 you are more focused on what is going to be built after the pylon: proxy robo, proxy gate etc. and not the pylon itself. edit: Currently it does seem a little too good. Amazing mobility and map control with that pylon. Perhaps pylons should require an upgrade to a 'Warp Pylon' or something to be used with warp gates. It doesn't have to cost hardly any resources either, just a significant amount of time so it gives the opponent a greater chance to find it and take it out before it comes into play. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
On December 21 2008 01:06 zer0das wrote: Not going to do anything unless the whole island can't be landed on. Scvs can be loaded into the command center now... Also, it seems like the ability to warp units in next to a pylon is a bit strong. But I guess gateways need to be upgraded into warp gates... Well, the loading SCVs doesn't affect the effect of a mineral patch, just make it like the Python corners, just enough rough terrain that's unbuildable so the CC can't land. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
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SlickR12345
Macedonia408 Posts
Yes thats obvious, but shields do take more damage now it seems. Seems even that bonus damage is taken into account, since bonus damage now works differently than SC. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5559 Posts
Shield take less damage because there's no bonus damage vs. shields, whereas in BW shield took always 100% damage when the unit itself could take 75% etc. due to their size | ||
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Mooga
United States575 Posts
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SaharaDrac
United States76 Posts
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Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
the old fashioned way | ||
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zeppelin
United States565 Posts
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EscPlan9
United States2777 Posts
* The commentators were good. They were not doing it for the hardcore audience, but still, they were professional and there was little if any dead air. There was always something to talk about, even if it seems miniscule to us. * This video is actually getting me pumped for SC2. Prior to this, I was tired of reading the endless threads on MBS, automining, etc and just wanted to see the game in action. I'm now confident that SC2 will have enough depth to make a great game. Blizzard will make sure of this. * There will be a lot of new strategies to learn in SC2 and I applaud Blizzard for making all these changes. It is going to be really interesting once this game is out and we all begin discussing strategies and build orders for the races again. I can't wait to get my hands on this game! I know there's some changes they need to make - but this is only the ALPHA iteration of the game. I'm sure many of you remember seeing pictures of SC1 in it's alpha and beta stages. They will make plenty more changes before it's released, and that's a big reason the commentators frequently said "in this alpha version..." | ||
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Kletus
Canada580 Posts
Anyways, I was hoping they used more of the high grass featured in this map. Maybe a seige tank in the middle of it with something floating outside as a spotter for it. I'm really curious if you can put a pylon in there and then warp up units onto the "rocked up" expo. | ||
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PobTheCad
Australia893 Posts
On December 21 2008 11:00 SaharaDrac wrote: Siege tanks definitely aren't the staple they used to be. As far as I can tell and have played, Marauders are used in every single terran game. how weak are marauders vs storm though? i havent actually seen storm or even hts used in sc2 yet... | ||
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SaharaDrac
United States76 Posts
On December 21 2008 13:13 PobTheCad wrote: how weak are marauders vs storm though? i havent actually seen storm or even hts used in sc2 yet... In the build I played, Storm was very underpowered (although it did stack). I'm pretty sure HTs aren't "finished" and ready to be tested yet. | ||
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
Gonna watch now. | ||
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Ideas
United States8104 Posts
There was absolutely no new info about the game( no new units or abilities, in fact, I dont think any spells were used at all except for cloak wtf) and the players indeed had horrible macro lol. I guess the only new info I got was that hellions are waaay too small for being cars. Marauders were bigger than them ffs. | ||
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
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ProberoO
United States88 Posts
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
On December 21 2008 14:36 A3iL3r0n wrote: If this is considered high-level play, we are fucked ;P It seems like it was just a couple of devs. I wouldn't worry about it. They obviously aren't going to be A+ gamers. I wish the units showed up better on the map is all. It seems like the Zealots are a bit too hard to see and I couldn't tell how many there were in attacks and such. The thing I love about SC is that it's very clear and you can always tell apart the units very distinctly and such. | ||
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HypnoticPoo
Singapore291 Posts
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lololol
5198 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5559 Posts
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PH
United States6173 Posts
The new observer features are awesome...you can see resources, unit count, even actions, it looked like. The graphics look nice, even if the units look a bit clunky in the way they clip each other and all that... But omg...the gameplay looks so retarded...the terran basically won the game with mass marauder and dancing micro. -____-;; I mean...I'm sincerely hoping it was because the toss was horribad...expo'ing when he had near zero unit count, and terrible macro and all that... The game seems like it goes rock < paper < scissors < rock...terran built a marine, toss built a stalker, terran built marauder, toss built zealot, etc. This kind of hard counter setup makes games boring and dull...I swear. That's one of the reasons why BW is so great...the units counter each other very subtly, and without proper macro or control, you can't win even with the proper counter for whatever unit. Even against that counter, you can overcome that again with proper control and macro. Worst of all...it just really seems that mechanics are being marginalized more and more...): | ||
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SaharaDrac
United States76 Posts
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
The attack animations look slow, so it looks like you have to micro them valkyrie style (wait for the attack animation to finish). The graphics dont have the unique style of starcraft anymore, it looks just like RA3, even the units do. The xel naga watchtowers are stupid. The camera is annoying, it accelerates slowly when you try to scroll it with mouse (or that is what it looks like) Kinda like ice maps in platformer games =d. Also when it goes over high ground it looks kinda silly. The workers look faster now, but other units are slow. Dont get me wrong, it looks like a VERY fun RTS game. But i do not see it becoming an e-sport right now. It looks just like RA3 or Supreme commander or any other new RTS lately. I think its the perfect casual oriented rts. Also it looks like it will lag like hell, also when protoss buildings explode, it covers the whole screen with blue smoke and stuff. You can't see shit under that. Also the buildings are an eysore, both protoss and terran, the terran buildings have too much shit spinning around them when they build stuff etc. It has lost the simplicity of SC. | ||
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
Well maybe not if you are very carefull and attack a worker on one of the side mineralpatches but running into a mineral line is suicide. Besides that you couldn't see if the zealots killed any scv's at all wtf was going on 2000 scv's huggin those zealots goddamn =| | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
On December 21 2008 20:50 SaharaDrac wrote: You guys are absolutely, mind-blowingly ridiculous. Considering how much of most of our lives BW takes up, if SC2 is going to replace BW, it had better be near damn perfect... :\ | ||
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SaharaDrac
United States76 Posts
On December 21 2008 20:54 MuR)Ernu wrote: The units seem to be like inside each other. The armies seem like a color blob, compared to BW, where it is so simple and clear that you can like count their units with just 1 quick look etc., it looks horrible, i couldn't really tell what units where in their armies. The attack animations look slow, so it looks like you have to micro them valkyrie style (wait for the attack animation to finish). The graphics dont have the unique style of starcraft anymore, it looks just like RA3, even the units do. The xel naga watchtowers are stupid. The camera is annoying, it accelerates slowly when you try to scroll it with mouse (or that is what it looks like) Kinda like ice maps in platformer games =d. Also when it goes over high ground it looks kinda silly. The workers look faster now, but other units are slow. Dont get me wrong, it looks like a VERY fun RTS game. But i do not see it becoming an e-sport right now. It looks just like RA3 or Supreme commander or any other new RTS lately. I think its the perfect casual oriented rts. Also it looks like it will lag like hell, also when protoss buildings explode, it covers the whole screen with blue smoke and stuff. You can't see shit under that. Also the buildings are an eysore, both protoss and terran, the terran buildings have too much shit spinning around them when they build stuff etc. It has lost the simplicity of SC. All you have to do is look at this post from an objective viewpoint to see how damn silly this community is. "The Xel'Naga Watchtowers are STUPID." "It LOOKS like it will LAG LIKE HELL." It's like...wow TL.net. Bravo! | ||
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InRaged
1047 Posts
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PobTheCad
Australia893 Posts
Xel naga watch towers (noone is saying they have to be in every map and they add strategy) 30% increase for Z on creep stalker blink units that are able to go up and down terrain easily like colossus and reaper overlord being able to drop creep MBS , auto rally , seperate worker rally unit video portraits things i don't like The blur of units that has been mentioned , seriously it looks like they would be much worse off vs a splash damage attack of say psi storm or siege mode.they seem alot more stacked than in bw colossus (underpowered , seems like if the unit it is attacking moves fast then the shot it fires is too slow) banshee (overpowered? imo it seems so by viewing this video) firebat/vulture thingy - seems weak , situational and just not that good.poor vs static defense like bat/vult? not as useful as vulture. attack animations - too many lasers , poor death animations | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
The attack animations look slow, so it looks like you have to micro them valkyrie style (wait for the attack animation to finish). untrue | ||
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SaharaDrac
United States76 Posts
On December 21 2008 21:52 InRaged wrote: SaharaDrac, fyi you're judging whole community by the guy with 9 posts. You're right, but it seems to be the general attitude of the board regarding SC2. The only community members I see with a fair outlook are FrozenArbiter and a couple others. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
On December 21 2008 20:25 PH wrote: counter system the armor and damage system are almost the same as brood war no? if not, oh it can be changed if gameplay get boring and command and conquer/battle for middle earth like | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 21 2008 20:54 MuR)Ernu wrote: The units seem to be like inside each other. The armies seem like a color blob, compared to BW, where it is so simple and clear that you can like count their units with just 1 quick look etc., it looks horrible, i couldn't really tell what units where in their armies. I didn't have this problem, you are probably just not used to the game/units? Slightly harder than SC maybe, but that's inevitable in 3D. The attack animations look slow, so it looks like you have to micro them valkyrie style (wait for the attack animation to finish). Some units maybe, but the Marauder definitely seemed microable. I can't tell if the Stalkers were or not, since he never tried to.. The graphics dont have the unique style of starcraft anymore, it looks just like RA3, even the units do. First of all, given what RA3 looks like, that's not even an insult (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/43518.html), second - I disagree, I think it looks like SC. The xel naga watchtowers are stupid. Why? The more things you can do with the map editor, the better. The camera is annoying, it accelerates slowly when you try to scroll it with mouse (or that is what it looks like) Kinda like ice maps in platformer games =d. Also when it goes over high ground it looks kinda silly. Good point I suppose, maybe they can fix it. The workers look faster now, but other units are slow. Dunno what the game speed was, and it didn't feel all that slow. Dont get me wrong, it looks like a VERY fun RTS game. But i do not see it becoming an e-sport right now. It looks just like RA3 or Supreme commander or any other new RTS lately. I think its the perfect casual oriented rts. Comparing this to Supreme Commander is a joke :[ A JOKE. I don't even know why it wouldn't become an e-Sports, WC3 is one - does it not look at least on par with that game? Also it looks like it will lag like hell, also when protoss buildings explode, it covers the whole screen with blue smoke and stuff. You can't see shit under that. The Nexus explosion was a bit big, but I actually didn't even notice it until you pointed it out. The other buildings are completely fine. Also the buildings are an eysore, both protoss and terran, the terran buildings have too much shit spinning around them when they build stuff etc. It has lost the simplicity of SC. What are you even talking about? Who cares what they look like when they are building? EDIT: Omg Ki_Do is defending SC2. I better check the temperature in Hell, maybe I can go ice-skating on the River Styx. | ||
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
On December 21 2008 21:29 SaharaDrac wrote: All you have to do is look at this post from an objective viewpoint to see how damn silly this community is. "The Xel'Naga Watchtowers are STUPID." "It LOOKS like it will LAG LIKE HELL." It's like...wow TL.net. Bravo! You are just as much a part of TL net community as i am so stfu. Sorry if i didnt care enough to elaborate more. | ||
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
The graphics make it look like every other new rts out there, boring. But thats graphics, which doesnt matter if the gameplay was interesting enough. Which it is, but it doesnt seem to be a gosu-pro uber game to me like starcraft is. Wc3 is good, the units there are distinquishable(or W/E) unless you go 4vs4 mass air. Also its very micro intensive and funny strats. And its simple. This looks like a gimmicky stupid rts like the new C&C games. I only meant to compare the graphics and looks to Supreme commander. Not the gameplay. | ||
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SaharaDrac
United States76 Posts
On December 21 2008 22:06 MuR)Ernu wrote: You are just as much a part of TL net community as i am so stfu. Sorry if i didnt care enough to elaborate more. It wasn't about the lack of elaboration, at all. I wish you had elaborated 100% less, and not posted. They're right though, I shouldn't have judged the whole site from you, but I see a lot of base, unfounded opinions about this game that are totally unfair a lot on here. | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
On December 21 2008 20:50 SaharaDrac wrote: You guys are absolutely, mind-blowingly ridiculous. Yeah.. Can't believe how people conclude so many things from one single game between to noobs in a game that is still in alpha version. Give me a fucking break! | ||
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Highways
Australia6103 Posts
The main problems I found was the units clumping together which made it hard to see whats going on, and the colour of each player wasnt clear enough on the units. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
On December 21 2008 22:11 SaharaDrac wrote: It wasn't about the lack of elaboration, at all. I wish you had elaborated 100% less, and not posted. They're right though, I shouldn't have judged the whole site from you, but I see a lot of base, unfounded opinions about this game that are totally unfair a lot on here. You have some unfounded unfair opinions on this forum as well. Besides this topic is about the Vod and SC2, not about how stupid me, or this site is. Lets get back on topic. I dont think i will switch to sc2 ever, and i hope most other people won't. I think they can live side by side unless people are stupid enough to just abandon BW, even though sc2 is completely different game, and basically not even related. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
On December 21 2008 22:18 MuR)Ernu wrote: Lets get back on topic. I dont think i will switch to sc2 ever, and i hope most other people won't. I think they can live side by side unless people are stupid enough to just abandon BW, even though sc2 is completely different game, and basically not even related. i share this feeling, but im full of fears, then its better to ask this game to be better than bw than see its death caused star2 and the problems it created. | ||
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SaharaDrac
United States76 Posts
On December 21 2008 22:28 Ki_Do wrote: i share this feeling, but im full of fears, then its better to ask this game to be better than bw than see its death caused star2 and the problems it created. How can you share that opinion? That opinion is the most horrifyingly ignorant thing I've read in a long time. I mean..."basically not related"??? Holy shit, come ON, man! You always seem like a pretty intelligent (if not a little backwards thinking) guy... | ||
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Bash
Finland1533 Posts
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Fen
Australia1848 Posts
I would definately love to see more of these however as they give a great insight as to how the game plays. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
On December 21 2008 22:37 SaharaDrac wrote: How can you share that opinion? That opinion is the most horrifyingly ignorant thing I've read in a long time. I mean..."basically not related"??? Holy shit, come ON, man! You always seem like a pretty intelligent (if not a little backwards thinking) guy... i meant the ppl moving on from brood war to star2 not the whole oppinion , sry, misunderstoodment | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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SaharaDrac
United States76 Posts
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On December 21 2008 23:01 SaharaDrac wrote: All it was was an example to show people who DON'T watch korean Starcraft VODs (read: 99.9% of the world) what Starcraft is like being commentated on like a sporting event. That's IT. Fixe'd | ||
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
Starcraft 2 and starcraft should be thought of as 2 different games, no-one was like "yay lets switch from BW when Ra3 comes out". That is what i meant when they are "not basically related". I know those posts were bad, i was a bit tired when i wrote those + i had other stuff in my mind as well. I apologize if i am the reason TL "sucks". Also what i think gives TL a bad rep is the fact that there is a bit too much flaming, which is OK to me. AND at least i posted, on topic. You just started hatin' on me because some parts of my post was shit. Also saharadrac do you have any opinions of your own? Or do you just look for flamewars everywhere? My posts were 100% better than your were in this topic. You were OT'ing and posting shit about ME, and saying that TL community sucks, which you are a part of. You are more a part of this community than i am, i only started posting here couple of days ago. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
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SaharaDrac
United States76 Posts
On December 21 2008 23:01 SaharaDrac wrote: All it was was an example to show people who DON'T watch korean Starcraft VODs (read: 99% of the world) what Starcraft is like being commentated on like a sporting event. That's IT. That was me changing the subject back to OT. The people in this thread looked at this video like it was Blizzard desperately trying to impress them, because well, hardcore nerds like us think we're the only ones people make games for. The truth however, is how I described it in the post i quoted above. | ||
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Kimera757
Canada129 Posts
On December 21 2008 22:18 Ki_Do wrote: is there a link to the new damage system anywhere? Check this link out: http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_types#StarCraft_II | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
The game looks great and I can see that there is real potential there for awesome competitive play. But I really want to shoot Dustin Browder. Listening to him is like watching your Dad dance at a party... you know what I mean?! He thinks he's really cool and he's making the game hip but really he should just shut up and let someone else cast. The way he pretends those two pathetically weak players were making great plays by moving an observer 2 inches to the right. And wait.... if he mentioned the stupid towers and explodable rocks (a dazzling new concept might I add) once, he mentioned them a thousand times. It's great to see in-game footage, but please if you really have to cast games instead of just releasing footage... get some decent casters. | ||
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Fen
Australia1848 Posts
Units clumping - Makes it impossible to tell whats going on when there are heaps of units all clipping through each other. Units stand too close to each other. An example of what it should be more like is when the terran was moving that force of helions around at the end. Thats the distance units should be keeping from each other. Death animations - Death animations have to seriously contrast with what the unit looks like when it is alive for easy readability. For example in BW a white medic would blow up into a sludge of red, acommpanied by a very distinct sound. Its very important for readability that things die in an effective manner. (I did like the protoss buildings death animations, they were cool) Map control - While this could just be a result of the poor players, there seemed to be very little map control in this game. Just units walking to the other's base in lines. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
@Damage types: When Dustin talks about counters and shit like this that doesnt mean sc2 is rly a rock paper scissor game(at least if what i read here is right http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_types#StarCraft_II) If he was commentating a brood war matchup he would be saying such things either way, like: wow NaDa went vultures against SaviOr zerglings, thats definitely the right unit to do this cause vultures concussion damage pwn lings. or. -Boxer wraith choice really went the right units against those carriers since wraiths have bonus damage AtA. correct me if you played sc2 already and i am wrong =/ | ||
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Wuselmops
Germany346 Posts
On December 21 2008 23:19 SaharaDrac wrote: That was me changing the subject back to OT. The people in this thread looked at this video like it was Blizzard desperately trying to impress them, because well, hardcore nerds like us think we're the only ones people make games for. The truth however, is how I described it in the post i quoted above. i think blizzard has made it clear that they aspire to make starcraft 2 a worthy successor to one of the biggest e-sports in the world and not some generic casual rts game. with that in mind i see nothing wrong with us "hardcore nerds" giving honest feedback during the alpha phase. along the way, some of us probably learn to improve the constructiveness of their criticism. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
how many revolutions, emotions, excitement, bonjwas,dicks, tricks,glitches, interation, brood war had? star2 have a long long way to follow, the stairway to heaven is not only long but treacherous and hard | ||
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Avius
Iraq1796 Posts
Anyways: Still it gives us a good overview over the dynamics of the game and I must say that I was pleasantly surprised. Imagine two (way) better players than these two (no offense) and other commentators (MBC/OGN style, no offense once again to Dustin Browder and co.). To me the game has a genuine feeling of SC. I judge games based on my feeling towards it and this game seemed very decent. Yes, there are things to be fixed but then again this is only Alpha. A lot of you have pointed out a lot of good stuff that has to be looked at again. I'm sure that Blizzard will make sure that certain fixes will be implemented. On a sidenote, I like Xel'Naga watchtowers :p I think they add a certain strategic element to the game. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
What's more, it does look like shit. They didn't design properly a single game since brood war. What most of naive people are delusional about, is only that the subpar quality they're delivering is tuned a tad higher than the overall garbage released every year by all other editors. There's really nothing to argue. Once the game will be released, then, argue all you want. So far, it looks, smells, feels like a piece of crap of inacurate 2D rts game in a 3D engine. There is NOTHING new. They didnt add ANYTHING. People blasting others with the argument "its not brood war, its another game" make me laugh. And now, to make it even better, its advertised by a band of inbreed metal fuck heads. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
On December 22 2008 00:56 Boonbag wrote: There is NOTHING new. They didnt add ANYTHING. i dont agree with ur whole post but this is tr00 instead, they took a thing from us | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 22 2008 00:56 Boonbag wrote: There is nothing to elaborate. At this point any serious opinion that tried the game out said more or less it was shit. What's more, it does look like shit. They didn't design properly a single game since brood war. What most of naive people are delusional about, is only that the subpar quality they're delivering is tuned a tad higher than the overall garbage released every year by all other editors. There's really nothing to argue. Once the game will be released, then, argue all you want. So far, it looks, smells, feels like a piece of crap of inacurate 2D rts game in a 3D engine. There is NOTHING new. They didnt add ANYTHING. People blasting others with the argument "its not brood war, its another game" make me laugh. And now, to make it even better, its advertised by a band of inbreed metal fuck heads. Eh, literally every single person who has played the game has said it's better than WC3. Better than WC3 means it's good. Literally every single person aside from Rekrul has said they enjoyed the game - regardless of wether they thought it was as good as BW or not. Honestly, show me all these people saying it's shit, because I sure as hell haven't heard from them (again, aside from Rekrul writing a 1 sentence blog post saying "Star2 sucks balls"). | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5559 Posts
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
Also, eesh the game probably needs some re-balancing. Obviously it's just alpha, but mass marauders/hellions was hilariously powerful. And marauders taking down colossi was just silly. I really thought that "concussion" missiles were going to be anti-infantry. We didn't see a single tank, and only ever saw like 4 marines. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 22 2008 02:27 maybenexttime wrote: I don't think Rekrul is credible, though. He's taken the path of the night - nothing that's not vagina can satisfy him anymore. T___T More like the path of the troll. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
the more the freedom the more build orders you can use, and that mean more complex gameplay ps:and no im not defending star2 i am still worried and will whine till death about macro. =) | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
But as for the game I want to play, as a "noob" I want something new, fresh, and smoother than BW, I dont think ill be pro from night to day, but with enought practice, automine and MBS, I might be able to execute better tatics, have more clearness to think my decisions thro, and have more fun overall because I will feel like my mistakes will cause my defeat, and not my inability to play the game because of its high requirements. Im not looking foward to BW 3d, im looking foward to SC2, I want easier macro so I can play and have a better shot against any of you guys, be ready because I will own you all in sc2. HA | ||
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UmmTheHobo
United States650 Posts
1. Up to date graphics. 2. Cool explosions. 3. Xel'Naga Watchtowers. 4. Some units look too big. 5. The guy using the colossus sucked balls so the colossus must suck balls. 6. I am in denial that units in Starcraft 2 can turn around and shoot like they did in Broodwar. 7. Nostalgia. 8. They took out the firebat. 9. All the reasons listed above. 10. More reasons that I will think of later. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
On December 22 2008 03:14 D10 wrote: I defend Starcraft 2 because, even tho BW its probably the best RTS out there, its not a game that catters to me multiplayer wise, Its too old and rusty, sometimes I think that until most famous proplayers migrated (if they ever will) id still watch the BW leagues, and etc.. But as for the game I want to play, as a "noob" I want something new, fresh, and smoother than BW, I dont think ill be pro from night to day, but with enought practice, automine and MBS, I might be able to execute better tatics, have more clearness to think my decisions thro, and have more fun overall because I will feel like my mistakes will cause my defeat, and not my inability to play the game because of its high requirements. Im not looking foward to BW 3d, im looking foward to SC2, I want easier macro so I can play and have a better shot against any of you guys, be ready because I will own you all in sc2. HA this is why you defend star2 this is why i attack it. | ||
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UmmTheHobo
United States650 Posts
On December 22 2008 03:20 Ki_Do wrote: this is why you defend star2 this is why i attack it. Are you scared? Are you afraid that someone you thought was a lesser person will come out on top in the only thing you can judge people by, Starcraft? Easier Macro does NOT mean noobs will pwn. It just means There will be more time to think of strategy and execute micro. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
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NatsuTerran
United States364 Posts
On December 22 2008 03:25 UmmTheHobo wrote: Are you scared? Are you afraid that someone you thought was a lesser person will come out on top in the only thing you can judge people by, Starcraft? Easier Macro does NOT mean noobs will pwn. It just means There will be more time to think of strategy and execute micro. No, easier mechanics just dumbs down the mechanical side of the game. Now instead of people needing to be skilled in multiple departments, they are only skilled in one. The effects of hard practice will also be minimized. I've seen it happen in dozens of sequels, and SC2 isn't an exception. | ||
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
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UmmTheHobo
United States650 Posts
1z2z3z4z5z I press zzzzz, any fucktard can press 1z2z3z4z5z with ten minutes of practice. Auto-mine WILL be taken out when beta comes out because that actually makes a difference. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
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Insane Lane
United States397 Posts
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On December 22 2008 03:56 Ki_Do wrote: im not explaning this to you, if someone wants to explain the whole thing please feel free. Yea, even I know how much it will impact the game, im just on the other side of the table I still think the better player will always win tho. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 22 2008 03:25 UmmTheHobo wrote: Are you scared? Are you afraid that someone you thought was a lesser person will come out on top in the only thing you can judge people by, Starcraft? Easier Macro does NOT mean noobs will pwn. It just means There will be more time to think of strategy and execute micro. .. Reasons I should not ban you: 1. It's christmas. 2.............. Help me out here. Seriously - can people stop the whole "are you scared" bullshit? 99.99% of the people on this forum would benefit hugely from MBS and Automine when playing the pros. Btw, more time to think is completely wrong - you think while you execute, it's not like I go "oh man I'm gonna do this totally sweet thing - oh wait let's make some SCVs - .. ah where was I? Nvm let's ling rush". I'm not really against the new UI features, I think with the proper metagame the game could still be as demanding as SC (ie all the MBS and automining features are irrelevant in ZvZ but it's still hugely demanding*), but more time to think isn't much of an argument for why they should be there. * I'm not suggesting all the matchups be like ZvZ, I just mean that if the optimal way to play the matchup is extremely harass/multitask heavy then those actions will simply replace MBS/automining. | ||
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ramen247
United States1256 Posts
On December 21 2008 21:11 PH wrote: Considering how much of most of our lives BW takes up, if SC2 is going to replace BW, it had better be near damn perfect... :\ if you think like that...the best thing blizzard cud do is just release bw again in a different box.... you guys are very closeminded about this. these guys as you could see were not GOOD. would you guys watch a game in BW played by a couple of 40 apm noobs? NO. cuz that wud be a bore. in sc2, these 40 apm guys were playing, but it was still INTERESTING. you could feel that gameflow and who was obviously winning and you could anticipate and predict what would happen. if you want sc's simplicity, you can just turn down the texture settings. this was a freaking demonstrational vid. you are not the ones playing. im sure if you were actualy playing, you would really like how sc2 plays out. if you are actually playing it you can distinguish btwn the units easily. and about the banshee thing. im pretty sure its 2 banshee hits = 1 probe. so? its like a vulture... | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
3. Having to moderate the SC2 forum hasn't even hardened your heart I've always wondered what TL would be like if the B.net forum posters started posting here. I fear the future of this forum once the beta comes out. | ||
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ramen247
United States1256 Posts
why are you guys so angry about MBS. sure it will give newbs easier time, but it will also make players taht have good macro into macro gods. referencing to the DAN stapleton i think article. "speed freaks" dan wants a slower speed so he can keep up. but a slower speed will still resultin him losing horribly, as last romantic, who gets a slower speed benefit as well, will abuse this to perfect his macro, micro mechanics in general. sure dan gets a boost, but LR gets a boost too. its the same. | ||
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 22 2008 03:53 UmmTheHobo wrote: Do you really think Multiple building selection will make THAT big of a deal. Omg, instead of pushing 1z2z3z4z5z I press zzzzz, any fucktard can press 1z2z3z4z5z with ten minutes of practice. Auto-mine WILL be taken out when beta comes out because that actually makes a difference. Because clearly you can spend the whole game with only 5 production buildings? The difference that SBS makes is that once you pass about 6 or 7 production buildings, its no longer feasible to keep them all on hotkeys, because you start to adversely affect your ability to control your army. This means you either have to devote attention to looking at your base to macro (running the risk of being attacked while you're looking away -- its a calculated risk), or finding a way to split your hotkeys to maximize your macro while microing. Either way, it does add depth to the gameplay. Its not all about speed. There is thought and strategy to managing your time. Its not about the difference between hitting 1z2z3z4z5z and 1zzzzz, its the difference between hitting 1zzzzz and actually having to look at your base. On December 22 2008 04:56 ramen247 wrote: AND.... why are you guys so angry about MBS. sure it will give newbs easier time, but it will also make players taht have good macro into macro gods. referencing to the DAN stapleton i think article. "speed freaks" dan wants a slower speed so he can keep up. but a slower speed will still resultin him losing horribly, as last romantic, who gets a slower speed benefit as well, will abuse this to perfect his macro, micro mechanics in general. sure dan gets a boost, but LR gets a boost too. its the same. Its about degrees too. Just because they both get a boost doesn't mean that they get equal boosts. Dan gets a much bigger boost than LR. LR will still be overall the better player, but a smaller gap means that Dan has a higher chance of taking a lucky game off of LR. As far as the pro-scene goes, "lucky wins" are not really a good thing. If a good player is facing off against someone who's definitively worse, people don't want to see the worse player take a "lucky game" off of the better player (hence why people get worked up when someone cheeses their way through a Bo3, or when matches boil down to BO wins). There's no skill to getting lucky. Its just...getting lucky. A questionably relevant analogy: Suppose you've got 2 people taking a 1 hour exam. One person can finish the exam with reasonable speed, though not much time to check answers. One of them has trouble 3/4 of the exam. Extending the exam time to two hours clearly gives the second guy much more help than the first. Yes the first can go back and check his answers and make improvements, but that helps him much less than the guy who couldn't finish in the first place. Consequently, the fact that the first person is a better student and studied harder to be able to work problems quickly matters less. The chance that the second student might get lucky and score higher (say, by guessing on the last few problems) is much higher than before. On December 22 2008 05:00 Zelniq wrote: FA you must be so tired of having to constantly repeat the same things that's been said so many times already. This forum could use a FAQ As if people who make unintelligent posts would be intelligent enough to read it? | ||
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[X]Ken_D
United States4650 Posts
On December 20 2008 06:15 .risingdragoon wrote: Yeah, it's one of the gimmickier aspect of mapping. Even so, those barricades in ur pic are well-designed. The rocks in the video are the same ones from wc3 singleplayer, ones you hit a few times and they crumble to dust. And what about the other points? They're valid concerns, cus I can care less if only sc wasn't so so good. A step backwards would just be too sad. Why are you still complaining about this? FrozenArbiter just showed proof that it isn't some gimmick from WC3. Also, the barricades can make maps into semi-islands. Those Collossus could had done a lot more damage since those SCVs were basically helpless to Collossus fire and there were no way to escape. On December 20 2008 08:54 .risingdragoon wrote: that's the jest of it isn't it? vods are not and will never be in full hd sc vods are all watchable cus the units are distinct. Wrong. BW Vods are easy to see because BW use 2D graphics which requires lower bandwidth than for the equivalent in 3D. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 22 2008 05:00 Zelniq wrote: FA you must be so tired of having to constantly repeat the same things that's been said so many times already. This forum could use a FAQ Yes, and that's a pretty good idea. Also I missed that .risingdragoon post about the rocks... God damnit man, they have 2000 hp. Zealots do 16 damage. They are nothing at all like the rocks in WC3 (not that that matters, at all). | ||
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
On December 22 2008 06:46 [X]Ken_D wrote: Wrong. BW Vods are easy to see because BW use 2D graphics which requires lower bandwidth than for the equivalent in 3D. The amount of data streaming is the same, but the amount of data (frame of pixels per unit of time) is not enough to give an acceptable representation of the 3D game. | ||
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wo0py
Netherlands922 Posts
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On December 22 2008 07:17 FrozenArbiter wrote: MBS discussion ends here - further posts about MBS in this thread = ban. You should do that more often. We have way to much derailed Threads that treat the same MBS-war ground... On the Video again though, am I the only one mistaking Protoss to have the colour blue all the time? Right now they could tone Teamcolours up again, especially with nonteamcoulor Psi for Protoss (The nonteam dominant coulour for Terran is Metallic-grey which can´t be confused with a Teamcolour, the Zerg right now have "Creepcouloured" as nonteamcolour.) | ||
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ilistis
United States828 Posts
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
Is it just me or units taking down a nexus in BW seem a lot longer than a group of marauders taking down a nexus. Maybe marauders just have an extremely high dps. What I learned from the video is that TvP is no longer going to require seige tanks. marauders takes the role of seige tanks since marauders basically rape any protoss units, (heavy armored stalkers and immortals, etc) and hellions replaces vultures killing zealots (the only unit that seem to kill marauders). And what i see is both maruaders and hellions are both more efficient than seige tank and vultures were (i.e. faster attack speed and splash) I'm more worried about balance at this point. | ||
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SaharaDrac
United States76 Posts
On December 22 2008 04:47 ramen247 wrote: if you think like that...the best thing blizzard cud do is just release bw again in a different box.... you guys are very closeminded about this. these guys as you could see were not GOOD. would you guys watch a game in BW played by a couple of 40 apm noobs? NO. cuz that wud be a bore. in sc2, these 40 apm guys were playing, but it was still INTERESTING. you could feel that gameflow and who was obviously winning and you could anticipate and predict what would happen. if you want sc's simplicity, you can just turn down the texture settings. this was a freaking demonstrational vid. you are not the ones playing. im sure if you were actualy playing, you would really like how sc2 plays out. if you are actually playing it you can distinguish btwn the units easily. and about the banshee thing. im pretty sure its 2 banshee hits = 1 probe. so? its like a vulture... Thank you. My god. The vast majority of people posting on this board sound like Southerners during the Civil Rights movement. There is absolutely NOTHING Blizzard could do to make them happy. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 22 2008 04:42 FrozenArbiter wrote: you're wayyy too nice FA... just look a his post history lol.. Reasons I should not ban you: 1. It's christmas. 2.............. Help me out here. | ||
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ramen247
United States1256 Posts
On December 22 2008 09:48 ilistis wrote: That commentary sucked ass. I guess they've never seen a pro game. Of course, it's not their fault but still, I guess they've never seen a probe run away from a marine before. lol ...the blizzard guys most probably HAVE seen a probe run away from a marine before. but much of the world that did not play BW competitively has not. so blizzard wants to appeal to them and want their audience to be able to relate and be interested. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
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[X]Ken_D
United States4650 Posts
On December 22 2008 08:13 naventus wrote: The amount of data streaming is the same, but the amount of data (frame of pixels per unit of time) is not enough to give an acceptable representation of the 3D game. Exactly. There are possible solutions to make it close enough to what we are use to for streaming such as cutting down the amount of animation inorder to have a longer static image/pixel. Perhaps a separate display method for streaming videos. | ||
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nataziel
Australia1455 Posts
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Creationism
China505 Posts
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deathgod6
United States5064 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ya, terran won woo! | ||
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
On December 22 2008 06:46 [X]Ken_D wrote: I think this is why I avoid the SC2 section of TL. There is no insightful discussion, but one retarded comment after another. Why are you still complaining about this? FrozenArbiter just showed proof that it isn't some gimmick from WC3. Also, the barricades can make maps into semi-islands. Those Collossus could had done a lot more damage since those SCVs were basically helpless to Collossus fire and there were no way to escape. Wrong. BW Vods are easy to see because BW use 2D graphics which requires lower bandwidth than for the equivalent in 3D. you know what? you should stay out of this section, cus you got nothing to say. those aren't barricades to make semi-islands you fool. the only thing they do is block scouting. they don't take much of anything to take down unlike the real barricades in promaps with huge hp. that kind of rock barricades are lifted from wc3 singleplayer maps. and WTF does bangwidth have to do with the 2d/3d graphics? if you're talking about the amount of details, that's the whole friggin point right now. the "HQ 3D details" are not only not distinct, they distract by getting in the way. | ||
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skunkySkunk
Canada16 Posts
On December 22 2008 13:06 .risingdragoon wrote: those aren't barricades to make semi-islands you fool. the only thing they do is block scouting. they don't take much of anything to take down unlike the real barricades in promaps with huge hp. that kind of rock barricades are lifted from wc3 singleplayer maps. Considering that you can change the health of anything in the editor in wc3, I'm sure that you will be able to do the same in sc2 so low-health rocks really shouldn't be a concern. | ||
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SaharaDrac
United States76 Posts
All this video was was Blizzard giving Western countries a small taste of what "e-sports" is about. Remember this is a foreign concept to most. They want it to become slowly palatable to our culture, so they introduced this simple video. Believe me, everyone knew how TL.net would react: like a bunch of stuck up, closed minded, backwards assholes. We didn't fail to deliver, either! | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
On December 22 2008 13:33 SaharaDrac wrote: No, no!!! Starcraft 2 sucks, did you see those ROCKS? They were stupid, just like Xel'Naga watchtowers!!!! I hate how it looks like WC3, its like it ISN'T in 2D or something!!! What the fuck Blizz you retards!? All this video was was Blizzard giving Western countries a small taste of what "e-sports" is about. Remember this is a foreign concept to most. They want it to become slowly palatable to our culture, so they introduced this simple video. Believe me, everyone knew how TL.net would react: like a bunch of stuck up, closed minded, backwards assholes. We didn't fail to deliver, either! Srsly(period) | ||
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ForVengeance
United States111 Posts
Also, i DL the video and watched it slightly sped up, to simulate the game being played on "fastest" as close as i could guess based on BW speeds. It looks WAY better and the slowness people are associating with attack animations and movement speeds are mostly gone at that point. Stalker has this ridiculous "kick" animation and the shots fired seem to travel too slow on the current speed setting. But when sped up a bit looks just like BW. I think it will be good. | ||
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ForVengeance
United States111 Posts
Just a thought though. | ||
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
On December 22 2008 13:33 SaharaDrac wrote: No, no!!! Starcraft 2 sucks, did you see those ROCKS? They were stupid, just like Xel'Naga watchtowers!!!! I hate how it looks like WC3, its like it ISN'T in 2D or something!!! What the fuck Blizz you retards!? All this video was was Blizzard giving Western countries a small taste of what "e-sports" is about. Remember this is a foreign concept to most. They want it to become slowly palatable to our culture, so they introduced this simple video. Believe me, everyone knew how TL.net would react: like a bunch of stuck up, closed minded, backwards assholes. We didn't fail to deliver, either! Hoo boy, settle for mediocrity, that's the way of the true fan!! Can't talk about it cus it's work in progress? Why, cus all games WIP eventually end up as shining examples of god's merciful presence on earth? His divine creation? Get your head screwed on right. Battle report goes back 10 years to the original beta. This is just promotion for the game, there's nothing remotely e-sports about this video. It's a playtest between 2 staffers who are playing the 2 races that are further along. SC went through a lot of revisions (the right kind of revisions) to become what it is today. SC2 is shooting for the moon here, with such a lofty goal I wouldn't hesitate to comment. If something's not right it needs to be said it's not right, and hopefully improved on in the future. | ||
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RinoZerg
Australia130 Posts
The level of promotion in the video is to be expected really. Its free advertising basically, why wouldn't they do it? Hopefully we can see some more of this! Weekly videos! Weekly! Karune doesn't have anything better to do! | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
In SC2 when you move a group of units, they are just like one after another like clones/mindless zombies following each other. They are always perfectly positioned. The second thing I noticed is the missing attack animations. Even when the stalkers shoot, like in the beginning when the scv is running away, the shot would miss and land on the floor but the scv would take damage and eventually die. When a dragoon fires, once the shot leaves the dragoon, the shot will hit the target even if the unit moves away from firing range. That's something that needs to be fixed. Either make animation hit and damage delt or animation miss means damage not delt, but no one would want the latter. | ||
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MasterReY
Germany2708 Posts
i love to watch it. SC2 will rock as esports and we will be all happy | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 22 2008 13:06 .risingdragoon wrote: you know what? you should stay out of this section, cus you got nothing to say. those aren't barricades to make semi-islands you fool. the only thing they do is block scouting. they don't take much of anything to take down unlike the real barricades in promaps with huge hp. that kind of rock barricades are lifted from wc3 singleplayer maps. and WTF does bangwidth have to do with the 2d/3d graphics? if you're talking about the amount of details, that's the whole friggin point right now. the "HQ 3D details" are not only not distinct, they distract by getting in the way. They have 2000 hp. You can change the HP to whatever the fuck you want. In fact, you can do more or less whatever you want in the SC2 editor, you can probably turn the entire map into quagmire if you want to. So could you please, PLEASE not bring up the god damn rocks again? ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/11_Sin%20Pioneer%20Period_thumbnail.jpg) The buildings blocking the path leading to the corners/to the temples blocking your main, all have 2000 hp. That is the exact same amount as those rocks. The person that should not be posting here is you - take a break if you don't feel like explaining why they are different from the SC barricades. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10716 Posts
What I did not like that much: Marauders: A bit too big for my taste and the Rocket could be a bit less *flashy*? The Flamethrower-Buggy: High-Tech Tanks, Mech's in different sizes, Power Armored Marines and even bigger ones (Marauders), stealth flyers and the other new weapon of the Terrans: Beachbuggys with Flamethrowers... eww... | ||
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InRaged
1047 Posts
On December 22 2008 13:06 .risingdragoon wrote: and WTF does bangwidth have to do with the 2d/3d graphics? if you're talking about the amount of details, that's the whole friggin point right now. the "HQ 3D details" are not only not distinct, they distract by getting in the way. mmm... Not at all. The problem is not in details that get in the way. It's quite other way around. The problem is that all the details were lost during video compression. BW is clearer on vods because it's played in 640x480 screen resolution, and that's about it. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10716 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5559 Posts
I'm pretty sure use the same settings for TV and online streams. | ||
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
On December 22 2008 13:33 SaharaDrac wrote: No, no!!! Starcraft 2 sucks, did you see those ROCKS? They were stupid, just like Xel'Naga watchtowers!!!! I hate how it looks like WC3, its like it ISN'T in 2D or something!!! What the fuck Blizz you retards!? All this video was was Blizzard giving Western countries a small taste of what "e-sports" is about. Remember this is a foreign concept to most. They want it to become slowly palatable to our culture, so they introduced this simple video. Believe me, everyone knew how TL.net would react: like a bunch of stuck up, closed minded, backwards assholes. We didn't fail to deliver, either! You're angry because of fucking rocks and watch towers?... Seriously, get a life. EDIT: Oh, looks like he's been banned | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 23 2008 01:50 GunsofthePatriots wrote: You're angry because of fucking rocks and watch towers?... Seriously, get a life. EDIT: Oh, looks like he's been banned Actually he's being sarcastic, the person complaining about the rocks was .risingdragoon | ||
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Bash
Finland1533 Posts
Also, for the record, SC was an incomprehensible mess to me when it was new to me, too. Please make some attempt at objective thinking here people, or is that too much to ask? | ||
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Phrogs!
Japan521 Posts
But everytime I see an SC2 game like this I'm happy as it seems a really fun game for the spectators. | ||
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V6
147 Posts
You just dont play with love, with love comes trust and trust is earned. I can love the girl but hate her parents and sisters, so i dont need to love blizz or sc2 just becouse I love SC/BW. conservative | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
- From a design standpoint, I'd say it's fine. Proxy attacks were/are a big BW part of Protoss early game options, but they were all or nothing. This makes them doable without being all or nothing. It also gives them an option for dealing with containment which I always felt was a huge weakness in BW Protoss. The Protoss logically need some way around a ranged containment. We can guess that the Zerg will have Muta options or if going land more efficient expansion options and hatchery production outside their main built-in. Terrans always have the tank to fall back on to prevent dangerous containment. Yeah, I felt Protoss were the ones that always were sweating the most back in the day. Do I sound biased to Protosss? I just always root for the underdog. Once SC2 comes out and (if) Protoss seem to have it too easy, I'll switch my stance quickly. Still, Terran with all ranged units, multiple AOE ranged units, units with auto-cast slow... they just sound very scary. I plan on having some fun with Terran. Colossus - Yeah, I feel the same way. Isn't worth the cost in that build of the game. Matchup - I was surprised to see no tanks or whatnot either. Not sure if they kept it simple on purpose, or if the Terran just knew he was building the right counters and stuck with it. On December 19 2008 19:38 Nintu wrote: I'm very impressed. One of my only real concerns is the same that's been voiced a thousand times before. I hope that wasn't the fastest game speed. Hopefully it was 2 notches below the fastest because everything was pretty.. easy to handle. Looked like everything would have been ezpz to do at that speed. 100 apm tops necessary for that stuff. So again, I hope there are 2 speeds faster than that. Other than that it looks amazing and fun. I hope some of the death animations get reworked. I hate seeing every protoss unit die in a generic blue explosion. I don't want long death animations that could confuse battles, but rather unique and distinctive animations. The colossus for example is too large to merely die in a generic small blue explosion. -_-;; I'm also concerned that a single proxy'd pylon can now pump units from anywhere on the map. Protoss simply has too much map control and maneuverability. The whole balance in BW of fighting on your side of the map giving you an advantage because your reinforcements get there first, that's completely destroyed if Protoss can get a single proxy pylon close to the Terran base. If you enjoyed containing Protoss in BW, I think you'll be unimpressed by the rework Protoss mobility has been given. I still think the colossus blows entirely way too much ass. Nothing that is that large should ever be that useless. I assume it costs more than a hellion, and a single hellion was killing probes faster than the Colossus attacking a group of 20 SCV's. Seriously needs a rework. I know it's a different game and will work completely differently, it's just hard to accept such drastic changes to certain matchups. I also wish we had seen some tech from either players. We just saw Marines, Hellions, Marauders and like 2 banshees vs zealots, stalkers and some colossi. I feel like we only saw like 20% of the units from both sides. I wanted to see Siege Tank abuse, dark templar and carriers. I hope the next battle report is a better display of the Race's arsenal. I also hope it's sooner rather than later. Despite my criticism and pessimism, I really enjoyed what I saw and am extremely excited for SC2. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
I think maybe it's a result of all the shading and soft edges; somehow the more simplistic unit design of SC1 without such sophisticated lighting/shading seems so much easier to take in at a glance. I wish they'd use SC2-style terrain and SC1-style unit design Also, I can't stand the way the units seem to clump together weirdly --- I can't quite explain what bothers me about it but for some reason it doesn't feel right. Is it a result of the absence of magic boxes? I can't tell. But it makes the game less pleasant to look at. Still, nice preview, and I actually found it encouraging, all things considered. | ||
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
On December 23 2008 02:04 FrozenArbiter wrote: Actually he's being sarcastic, the person complaining about the rocks was .risingdragoon you were the original guy who made a huge point of pulling that one bit about rocks out of many points I mentioned. my original point was that it's a gimmick, before it got corrupted by everybody jumping on it all at once. yes, all blocking neutral buildings are gimmicky, these days they're just better designed than before. the low hp rocks is stock, it's gonna be played. no I do not think rocks will ruin the game as we know it. it's still a carryover like neutral buildings that do things are carried over from c&c. look, I don't care to make a strong issue either way about this, it's ongoing. just don't misrepresent what I said. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5559 Posts
That just doesn't add up. ;; | ||
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Emptyness
Bulgaria1016 Posts
 .But damn, the commentary was very nice to listen . | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
I really hope hope the game can develop as much as Starcraft does. It looks promising as is, but it won't become Starcraft replacement until it starts evolving. The HUD was kind cool - the one that displays active min/gas. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 23 2008 08:07 .risingdragoon wrote: you were the original guy who made a huge point of pulling that one bit about rocks out of many points I mentioned. my original point was that it's a gimmick, before it got corrupted by everybody jumping on it all at once. yes, all blocking neutral buildings are gimmicky, these days they're just better designed than before. the low hp rocks is stock, it's gonna be played. no I do not think rocks will ruin the game as we know it. it's still a carryover like neutral buildings that do things are carried over from c&c. look, I don't care to make a strong issue either way about this, it's ongoing. just don't misrepresent what I said. I'm making a big deal out of this because you kept insisting that they were first from WC3 (they are in SC too) then that they didn't have enough HP like the "real blockades in SC" (they have the same amount and it can be tweaked). They can be however gimmicky they want to be, they add options to the game, options are good. I don't know what "low hp rocks is stock, it's gonna be played" means, but the HP is adjustable. And 2000 isn't low. Here are some further examples of why I'm making a big deal out of this: the rock barricade's a lame wc3 carryover those aren't barricades to make semi-islands you fool. the only thing they do is block scouting. they don't take much of anything to take down unlike the real barricades in promaps with huge hp. that kind of rock barricades are lifted from wc3 singleplayer maps. Yeah, it's one of the gimmickier aspect of mapping. Even so, those barricades in ur pic are well-designed. The rocks in the video are the same ones from wc3 singleplayer, ones you hit a few times and they crumble to dust. If you weren't so insistant on repeating these false claims I wouldn't be so gungho about correcting them :/ But you just ignore every post pointing out the flaws with what you are saying and continue posting the same thing. | ||
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sushiman
Sweden2691 Posts
Also, I think the terran units are hard to tell apart. It might be because I haven't played the game, but even if it were my first time seeing starcraft played, I'd be able to make out different units. Right now I couldn't make out what anything was in that huge clump of marines, marauders and helions, unless I really carefully looked on their sizes. A bit different textures or models would help, especially if they plan on making this game accessible for e-sports, where lower quality streams would be hugely affected by it. Otherwise I find the game looking quite good, except for the attack animations. | ||
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
On December 23 2008 09:24 FrozenArbiter wrote: If you weren't so insistant on repeating these false claims I wouldn't be so gungho about correcting them :/ But you just ignore every post pointing out the flaws with what you are saying and continue posting the same thing. I'm not ignoring at all, I'm simply saying what I saw. in wc3 singleplayer there are rock barricades that crumble to dust after just a few hits, and since the team behind sc2 is from war3 I don't see this as a stretch. there is a theme going on with sc2: people want a cost-reward exchange in many aspects of the game, like the ones in sc. Example: micro requires time and attention in exchange for precision. macro requires multitasking in exchange for production. A lot of things require intermittent breaks from ordinary intuitive control. SC2 is attempting to streamline that whole process with automine, attack move a.i., mbs, etc. obviously this is done to lessen the gap b/w ppl who do these things manually and people who can't do it/aren't willing to learn. this also closes the gaps b/w pros. so far so good? now, there are also things being added that don't fall into this whole cost-reward thing. these rocks will have little to no effect on the game if 2stalkers and a zealot can take it down in a few seconds. and I don't know how the watertowers are suppose to be different from say, a scouting pylon or a scray ling or vulture, except for maybe a little more range. I can go on - the high-yield minerals are kindiva gimmick too, cus we know from sc that it's not the yield that makes us expand to a location, it's the proximity and the ability to defend it. and if you say hidden expo, a high-yield one will get scouted even more vigorously. the point is these are all gimmicky stuff that, while nice to have (and kinda unnecessary since we can do most of that already), shouldn't be made to sound like some "prominent thing hanging in the balance" of the multiplayer vs, say, important things like moving shot, macro, graphic clarity, and non-clone-like group animation. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
these rocks will have little to no effect on the game if 2stalkers and a zealot can take it down in a few seconds. 4 zealots 3 dragoons 22 seconds That is not "a few seconds", not to mention that the minerals can be set to *anything*. High yield minerals add sooooo many options to mapmaking, and honestly - they hardly even mentioned them in this VOD. I think they talked about it.. once? They mentioned the Watch Towers like.. once in the beginning when they first showed one and then they pointed it out when the protoss started attacking the cliff, that the terran could see it from his Watch Tower. Also, the Towers have significantly more range than a normal unit, probably like 2x (check the minimap when the Stalkers claim it, just before 6 minutes I think). I don't even know why you are comparing these map features to gameplay mechanics btw :/ | ||
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neliel
Sweden63 Posts
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exp
New Zealand91 Posts
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
On December 23 2008 13:47 neliel wrote: Is it just me that find all the units extremely dull and gimmicky? No. You and all the 100 other new posters on the forum.. But seriously, the only one I don't like the look of is the marauder. EDIT: Is it just me or these people with 20 posts getting more ridiculous by the second!? | ||
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
On December 23 2008 14:10 exp wrote: Can't say I like the new units shown in this video. Might just take some getting used to (and pros to bring out their full potential), but BW units seem to have more character. Reavers and vultures just seem so much more interesting/exciting, not to mention wraiths cooler than banshees. What!? Banshees are fucking badass. If you were a true starcraft fan you would be welcoming a helicopter to the game Besides, they're like wraiths with no AA but insane AG attack.Vultures = Helions? Any more new members going to come and whine, because it seems like all the people with under 100 posts are all fucking pissed off about a casual battle report. | ||
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neliel
Sweden63 Posts
On December 23 2008 14:26 GunsofthePatriots wrote: No. You and all the 100 other new posters on the forum.. But seriously, the only one I don't like the look of is the marauder. EDIT: Is it just me or these people with 20 posts getting more ridiculous by the second!? Doubt that has anything to do with my postcount. I've been browsing these forums for MANY years and posting would clearly not change my opinions. | ||
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exp
New Zealand91 Posts
On December 23 2008 14:28 GunsofthePatriots wrote: What!? Banshees are fucking badass. If you were a true starcraft fan you would be welcoming a helicopter to the game Besides, they're like wraiths with no AA but insane AG attack.Vultures = Helions? Any more new members going to come and whine, because it seems like all the people with under 100 posts are all fucking pissed off about a casual battle report. Banshees seem pretty insane indeed, and I'm not denying that, but it looks just like some generic unit from C&C. Can't say I particularly like Helions with their flame throwers either, vulture frag grenade base raiding just seems cooler. Mainly, its the new terran unts I dislike though, colossus still has some potential. Don't know, my post is hardly a whine , It was just my thoughts based on the battle report. And notice how it was phrased "x seem more interesting". | ||
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
On December 23 2008 14:26 GunsofthePatriots wrote: No. You and all the 100 other new posters on the forum.. But seriously, the only one I don't like the look of is the marauder. EDIT: Is it just me or these people with 20 posts getting more ridiculous by the second!? I dont think you should care about postcount. Everyone has to start as a new poster right? What if the guys with 10k posts would come and pick on you for having only that many =D Anyway I do think the units look gimmicky, i also think they look to be "hard counters" for each unit. Its not like in SC where any units can really beat about any units depending on amount, angles, and the place battle happens. OK maybe Dragoons>Vultures, except vults have mines which can devastate dragoons with good micro (against lesser micro of dragoons). This looks too red alert3-y. Too much rock-paper-scissor stuff. And YES BW has some of that too, but not that excessively | ||
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hiroxx
Ireland115 Posts
On December 23 2008 14:26 GunsofthePatriots wrote: I think my opinions are more important than anyone else's, but I can't think of any plausible counter-arguments so I'll belittle them for not having many posts Fixed | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
banshees > wraiths marauders look awesome colossus sucks Can we get over with this already? | ||
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InRaged
1047 Posts
On December 23 2008 17:16 MuR)Ernu wrote: I dont think you should care about postcount. Everyone has to start as a new poster right? What if the guys with 10k posts would come and pick on you for having only that many =D Anyway I do think the units look gimmicky, i also think they look to be "hard counters" for each unit. Its not like in SC where any units can really beat about any units depending on amount, angles, and the place battle happens. OK maybe Dragoons>Vultures, except vults have mines which can devastate dragoons with good micro (against lesser micro of dragoons). This looks too red alert3-y. Too much rock-paper-scissor stuff. And YES BW has some of that too, but not that excessively Not that excessively?! Stalker without blink can't deal with Marauder and Marauder without heal and support of other units on the open ground being easy target for zealots is too much for you?? | ||
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NeoMesh
Canada49 Posts
On December 23 2008 14:28 GunsofthePatriots wrote: What!? Banshees are fucking badass. If you were a true starcraft fan you would be welcoming a helicopter to the game Besides, they're like wraiths with no AA but insane AG attack.Vultures = Helions? Any more new members going to come and whine, because it seems like all the people with under 100 posts are all fucking pissed off about a casual battle report. What a joke, these units look like crap.. you can't tell the difference of which unit is which in the battle.. they are all clumped together in some straight line as they walk.. they dont even have battle formation or separation like in SC.. The part where the helions/marauders/marines go up to take down the proxy pylon they are all so small in contrast with the ramp that you can barely even see the units.. they are also filed together and just look like a black ball moving around.. A lot of the units (helion, marines) and their animations (flame thrower, the way the marine runs) look like command and conquer units in action.. go pull up command and conquer youtube vids and compare them to this SC2 vid.. a lot of the units move and look exactly the same.. its very gimmicky and the graphics just add on some newb friendly pizazz in order to attract more customers. Isn't it ironic that dustin browder used to work on command and conquer?.. go compare the unit animations and unit size in comparison to the objects on the map.. it looks totally disproportional.. | ||
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NeoMesh
Canada49 Posts
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frostynine
Sweden53 Posts
On December 23 2008 09:09 thunk wrote: The commentary was so corny =p. They tried to imitate Tasteless and it was pretty funny watching them ooh and ahh over basic micro (oh HE PULLED THE INURED UNIT BACK!!!). I was just thinking that too. It felt like they had to force themselves to sound as enthusiastic and energic as Tasteless does sometimes, and that just felt really weird. I didn't really mind it tho, the vid was cool, it just felt weird. Haven't really been following the progress of SC2 alot, but it's starting to look pretty cool, and I do think it will be able to be the best competative esport when it's released, and I'm really looking forward to playing it! | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
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mikneb
Korea (South)5 Posts
Let me get this out of the way. I'm looking forward to SC2. I have complete faith in Blizzard, who has never (in my knowledge), released a bad game. Even WoW, depending on which camp you are in about that game, is an extremely polished and enjoyable game to play on a mechanical and overall meta-game level. Here's my gripe with SC2, after having watched the video: I'm fairly new to the game. And I know as a Korean that that makes for the ultimate heresy. But I've come to the point that I understand that professional players are professionals because they have completely mastered the utter clunkiness of the UI. You can only select 12 units, you can only hotkey 1 building, AI pathing is completely retarded sometimes. They can micro and macro on a ridiculous level simultaneously. And I can understand why a new improved sequel to a game should also include new and improved UI modifications to make things more efficient. It's counter-intuitive to say otherwise. But here's the thing: things that marginalize and lower the skill ceiling is going to be the death of the competitive scene. Even with BW, which is a game that has the most intensive skill ceiling I've ever played. I come from competitive CS 1.6. We had our own situation like this, with CS: Source coming out. It was prettier, by far, but on a mechanical level, things were far easier. Now here's the thing. I was very good at 1.6, so most of that immediately translated over to Source. Whereas I would go 40-10ish as a ratio in a random pub, I went 100-3 ratio over in Source. It was just that easy. But I was also getting killed in some random instances. People were running at me full speed across the map, zigzagging and spraying a TMP at me full-auto, and somehow headshot me and killed me. That would never have happened in 1.6, the bullets would be shooting at the sky if someone tried that. And then the community split between both games. Both games suffered as a result. 1.6 lost alot of desperately needed influx of new players and pubbers to sustain its competitive growth, and Source just floundered on a highly competitive level with the boring gameplay. People who appreciated the deep skill curve and the nuances of the movement/aiming/recoil mechanics to the original 1.6 refused to touch Source. People who found Source easier and more enjoyable argued that their game was the future as that with EVERYONE having the advantage of an easier recoil system, you had to be THAT much quicker to be better. But that's the thing. That's awful logic. MBS and Automine worries me, and rightly so. Yes, it'll give an equal advantage to everyone all across the board, but that is inherently faulty logic. Let's say you're going 1 on 1 in shooting a basketball with a Pro. You were pretty good during high school, and fairly decent in college, but were nowhere near good enough to go Pro, even then, you played enough to know what you're doing. A Pro would make their shot 9/10 times. You make it 6/10 times. This is a situation that would be attributed to Brood Wars, and my beloved 1.6. Now, let's add the Automine/MBS analogy into the mix. You make the rim twice as big in diameter. It's a vast improvement for the entire playerbase, performance wise, but here's the thing. A Pro would make their shot 10/10 times. The dumbing down of the gameplay mechanics just make him that much closer to perfection. But here's the catch. With the rim twice as big, you make it 9/10 times. Suddenly you are competitive with the Pro, despite the advantage being ubiquitous. People watch spectator video games to witness things that they could never pull off. No one here would be interested in watching Muta harass with a simultaneous push of their army if they could not appreciate how difficult it is to macro your base/economy, and at the same time rally and position your units, while microing Muta. The game will no doubt be enjoyable. I'm really looking forward to it. But if MBS/Automine stay in, it's really going to threaten the skill ceiling, and subsequently, the competitive landscape of the game. Mark my words, there is never room for a competitive scene (even one as big as BW's), for a game and its sequel. Ever. I know this topic has been done to death, just wanted to toss my one cent out there. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On December 22 2008 00:56 Boonbag wrote: There is nothing to elaborate. At this point any serious opinion that tried the game out said more or less it was shit. What's more, it does look like shit. They didn't design properly a single game since brood war. What most of naive people are delusional about, is only that the subpar quality they're delivering is tuned a tad higher than the overall garbage released every year by all other editors. There's really nothing to argue. Once the game will be released, then, argue all you want. So far, it looks, smells, feels like a piece of crap of inacurate 2D rts game in a 3D engine. There is NOTHING new. They didnt add ANYTHING. People blasting others with the argument "its not brood war, its another game" make me laugh. And now, to make it even better, its advertised by a band of inbreed metal fuck heads. Ahahah holy fuck try to sound intelligent more please. "the subpar quality they're delivering is higher than the average" - LOL This sentence contradicts itself.. So this is what people are delusional about.. so that means they think this but it isn't true. The game has gotten great reviews from most people who have played it including myself. Your post made me laugh quite hard, thank you. | ||
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
On December 24 2008 21:04 inReacH wrote: Ahahah holy fuck try to sound intelligent more please. "the subpar quality they're delivering is higher than the average" - LOL This sentence contradicts itself.. So this is what people are delusional about.. so that means they think this but it isn't true. The game has gotten great reviews from most people who have played it including myself. Your post made me laugh quite hard, thank you. This game has got bad reviews also by the players who have played it. (i think tasteless played it and didn't like it, and i think some progamers didn't like it.) | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On December 24 2008 20:04 mikneb wrote: Been lurking the forums for a decent amount of time now, and this is the only thread thus far that prompted me to register. Let me get this out of the way. I'm looking forward to SC2. I have complete faith in Blizzard, who has never (in my knowledge), released a bad game. Even WoW, depending on which camp you are in about that game, is an extremely polished and enjoyable game to play on a mechanical and overall meta-game level. Here's my gripe with SC2, after having watched the video: I'm fairly new to the game. And I know as a Korean that that makes for the ultimate heresy. But I've come to the point that I understand that professional players are professionals because they have completely mastered the utter clunkiness of the UI. You can only select 12 units, you can only hotkey 1 building, AI pathing is completely retarded sometimes. They can micro and macro on a ridiculous level simultaneously. And I can understand why a new improved sequel to a game should also include new and improved UI modifications to make things more efficient. It's counter-intuitive to say otherwise. But here's the thing: things that marginalize and lower the skill ceiling is going to be the death of the competitive scene. Even with BW, which is a game that has the most intensive skill ceiling I've ever played. I come from competitive CS 1.6. We had our own situation like this, with CS: Source coming out. It was prettier, by far, but on a mechanical level, things were far easier. Now here's the thing. I was very good at 1.6, so most of that immediately translated over to Source. Whereas I would go 40-10ish as a ratio in a random pub, I went 100-3 ratio over in Source. It was just that easy. But I was also getting killed in some random instances. People were running at me full speed across the map, zigzagging and spraying a TMP at me full-auto, and somehow headshot me and killed me. That would never have happened in 1.6, the bullets would be shooting at the sky if someone tried that. And then the community split between both games. Both games suffered as a result. 1.6 lost alot of desperately needed influx of new players and pubbers to sustain its competitive growth, and Source just floundered on a highly competitive level with the boring gameplay. People who appreciated the deep skill curve and the nuances of the movement/aiming/recoil mechanics to the original 1.6 refused to touch Source. People who found Source easier and more enjoyable argued that their game was the future as that with EVERYONE having the advantage of an easier recoil system, you had to be THAT much quicker to be better. But that's the thing. That's awful logic. MBS and Automine worries me, and rightly so. Yes, it'll give an equal advantage to everyone all across the board, but that is inherently faulty logic. Let's say you're going 1 on 1 in shooting a basketball with a Pro. You were pretty good during high school, and fairly decent in college, but were nowhere near good enough to go Pro, even then, you played enough to know what you're doing. A Pro would make their shot 9/10 times. You make it 6/10 times. This is a situation that would be attributed to Brood Wars, and my beloved 1.6. Now, let's add the Automine/MBS analogy into the mix. You make the rim twice as big in diameter. It's a vast improvement for the entire playerbase, performance wise, but here's the thing. A Pro would make their shot 10/10 times. The dumbing down of the gameplay mechanics just make him that much closer to perfection. But here's the catch. With the rim twice as big, you make it 9/10 times. Suddenly you are competitive with the Pro, despite the advantage being ubiquitous. People watch spectator video games to witness things that they could never pull off. No one here would be interested in watching Muta harass with a simultaneous push of their army if they could not appreciate how difficult it is to macro your base/economy, and at the same time rally and position your units, while microing Muta. The game will no doubt be enjoyable. I'm really looking forward to it. But if MBS/Automine stay in, it's really going to threaten the skill ceiling, and subsequently, the competitive landscape of the game. Mark my words, there is never room for a competitive scene (even one as big as BW's), for a game and its sequel. Ever. I know this topic has been done to death, just wanted to toss my one cent out there. I feel that both your analogies are far too 1-dimensional to be relevant. I understand you chose these because they are easy to understand but I think the simplicity of them basically ignores the bigger picture of what MBS will ultimately allow players to do. A few things MBS will add to the game is dynamic rally points(this is huge), defensive structure targeting as well as greater control over your army. They are adding many new ways to harass a player for each race. It is undeniable that with MBS out, this will free time up for players and with these additional ways to initiate confrontation, there will be more confrontations on average in a given game <---- THIS IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE. With so many new ways to harass and the lack of NECESSARY static defense for each race.. Actually I'll get into that for a moment... I don't know if anyone else has pointed it out but I feel that even though there will be many more ways to harass, static defense is still not going to be a staple in any build because each race is being provided with a way to instantly get units to a certain location in their base. Zerg: Nydus Network Imagine a top pro who sees reapers jumping up on his cliff behind his main mineral line, does he regret not putting some sunkens? Maybe he would like to have 1 but he doesn't so he immediately uses a overseer to make a nydus near his mineral line and jumps his army over there. He will likely already have a nydus worm out on the battlefield, if he does not all the better for the spectators. Imagine him grabbing the overlord he has in his group, shitting some creep nears his army, immediately making a nydus worm and then sending units to his mineral line. This is all only necessary if he doesn't have units nearby etc... This kind of stuff is possible though and it gives zerg a safe way to get out of buildings static defense. Protoss: Warp In Terran: Sensor Towers Ok so now that we've established each race CAN go without much static defense(you have an economic advantage if you do) if they are skilled enough, this in addition to the multiple new ways of harassing I'll say it again... this means that there will absolutely be more confrontations per game on average. How much cooler is it to do two different types of harass on your opponent while defending one of his yourself? This takes much more skill than macroing, this kind of concept has an infinitely high skill ceiling and is much more impressive to watch. Imagine in real war if you have many different task forces trying to fuck over your opponent while defending his tiny offenses on your own. Games will become so unstandardized as no player knows who is exactly ahead. So many skirmishes in and around mineral lines and other ways to mess people up, things we haven't seen before. Stalkers finding their main army shooting down a HT and then blinking away. This is what they are trying to create I feel, this is why they added overlord drop in addition to nydus worms. They don't want you to be able to prepare for everything. I have seen games where people play like this.. The one that comes to mind is a TvP on Destination,I forget the players but both must have attempted harasses over 8 times each and the game was a marathon of confrontation. Both players looks so sloppy in some aspects even though they played really well, just because both of their strategies demanded so much themselves and of each other. Bottom line is, easier macro and more ways to harass makes for more small battles/skirmishes, more ways to affect the other players economy and fuck their tech up.. this all makes for less standardized games which makes for a much MUCH higher skill ceiling not to mention more variation of style from player to player. I do want to say that your first post is a great one and I really enjoyed it. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
Only if the player himself choose to macro more in star2 the same way moon tried to multitask more in war3. The best players play standard in most match ups, no matter the game, cause they have the ability, mechanics and strategy to deal with many things starting from its build order, incouragin tactics,guerilla warfare, w/e w/e is noticeable only in low level competition, if you watch Orc vs Undead in warcraft today, you are going to see walkers,riders,bm, fs If you are watching PvT You are going to see dragoons, zealots and (Add dt or reaver) Brood War have enourmous potential to variated gameplay, from Jaedong incredible multitask, to ForGG awesome macro, Boxer/old school yellow micro oriented games and even inside those groups u can see differences, NaDa Bisu and Jaedong have a game focused in multitask, but Bisu have stronger early game, NaDa tornado gave him a lategame strong force, and JaeDong mid game is always wonderfull due to his harasses. Comparing ForGG and Oov for example, Oov somegames almost ignored micro and played a mini game called pump marines from barrax ForGG have its influences, and follow a similar path but Flash is a good Macroer with wonderful strategy and timing, wasnt him that beat Jaedong using 2 port? | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
I come from competitive CS 1.6. We had our own situation like this, with CS: Source coming out. It was prettier, by far, but on a mechanical level, things were far easier. Now here's the thing. I was very good at 1.6, so most of that immediately translated over to Source. Whereas I would go 40-10ish as a ratio in a random pub, I went 100-3 ratio over in Source. It was just that easy. But I was also getting killed in some random instances. People were running at me full speed across the map, zigzagging and spraying a TMP at me full-auto, and somehow headshot me and killed me. That would never have happened in 1.6, the bullets would be shooting at the sky if someone tried that. You realize that, assuming the players were of the same level in both games*, 100-3 is a far more desireable outcome from a competitive standpoint, as it means the better player is extremely likely to win? *I'd assume there are a ton more casual newbies playing Source tho. On December 24 2008 21:49 MuR)Ernu wrote: This game has got bad reviews also by the players who have played it. (i think tasteless played it and didn't like it, and i think some progamers didn't like it.) No, it really didn't get bad reviews by anyone who has played it, aside from Rekrul - and I have no clue if he was the least bit serious. Tasteless said he was worried about MBS. All the progamers stated in public that they liked the game and it felt just like BW - being worried about MBS doesn't mean they think the game sucks. On December 24 2008 21:04 inReacH wrote: Ahahah holy fuck try to sound intelligent more please. "the subpar quality they're delivering is higher than the average" - LOL This sentence contradicts itself.. So this is what people are delusional about.. so that means they think this but it isn't true. The game has gotten great reviews from most people who have played it including myself. Your post made me laugh quite hard, thank you. I don't know if that sentence is correctly written, but what he means is clear I think.. "Games released are shit, Blizzard games are just slightly less shit than the rest". I don't really agree with this sentiment but I think it's obvious what he means at least? Anyway, I agree with you that if they can get the game right, it's possible the MBS actions will be replaced by harass/multi-front battles. It just has to be the best way to play the matchup(s). | ||
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mikneb
Korea (South)5 Posts
My point was that in a situation where everything is held constant besides Automine/MBS, that the skill ceiling is diminished greatly. But I guess that is assuming that the gameplay is linear in the sense that there are two opposing bases without expos on opposite sides of the map with a narrow pathway in between. But Blizzard employees aren't exactly idiots. Despite their marketing being catered to the casual players and their tendencies for flavor of the month PC game titles, they seem as if they are playing incredibly close attention to the effect that their design choices will have on the pro-gaming landscape. They understand the ramifications of MBS/Automine, and if they don't, I'm sure they have noticed the collective bitching of every SC-centric forum by now. I just hope that other design elements they bring into SC2 can offset the ease of having MBS/Automine in a more dynamic sense. Like the options for more dynamic harassment as you said. And I'm pretty sure, correct me if I'm wrong, that the new gas mechanic was put in place, as retarded as it sounds, to make mining gas more tenuous and to force players to pay attention to their base atleast somewhat. But again, I could be wrong, build versions seem to change so many things that it's hard to keep up for someone like me who only casually follows the game's progress. On an aside, I think given enough time, even with the additional harass mechanics and terrain climbing, that everything will be standardized. BW is already complex enough as it is and now, ten years later, there are specific build orders and counters to that said build order without much thinking outside the box. But that's a different topic altogether I'm sorry, my posts tend to be extremely long-winded. Call it a narcissistic love for my own written prose. =) | ||
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mikneb
Korea (South)5 Posts
On December 24 2008 22:37 FrozenArbiter wrote: You realize that, assuming the players were of the same level in both games*, 100-3 is a far more desireable outcome from a competitive standpoint, as it means the better player is extremely likely to win? *I'd assume there are a ton more casual newbies playing Source tho. I'm not really comparing on the effects of gameplay mechanics on two evenly skilled individuals. It's moreso a concern on the gaming landscape as a whole. Let's say, for the sake of random numbers which can only serve to prove my point as they are made up in my favor =), that there are 100 S-class Korean gamers running the Pro-BW circuit. They are even with each other for the most part, and it comes down to the "any given Sunday" complex. The difference between the skills of the top 100 players are so negligible it comes down to the intangibles, who was on fire during the tournament, who was hungrier, and who was luckier, etc.etc. For the sake of my example, they are completely even. The point I was making is that even if they are dead even in SC2, and still destroying lesser-skilled players, the dumbed down mechanics would allow for more people to easily rise up into the ranks of the S-Class Korean level playing field. Instead of 100 there are 300. Etc.etc. The new 200 S-Class players wouldn't be able to compete with the original 100 in SC1, but the easier mechanics allow the new 200 to go toe-to-toe with them in the sequel. That poses an inherent question with the situation. Is it more competitive to have a mechanics for a large amount of players to be amazing, forcing those players to edge out wins with the intangibles, or is it more competitive to have such a deep skill curve that there are only a handful of players that compete at that high a level, and are for the most part untouchable? As far as history goes, and I know it's not a direct translation as to what will happen with SC2, Source was the latter, and failed as a result. There was a huge merger in the North American community when the CGS came out. About 4-5 of the top American 1.6 teams moved over to Source and competed in a league with salary. Some of these players were considered the best in the world, and they were getting scorched by some of the finest Source produced. But when the CGS collapsed, and the teams moved back to 1.6 with some of the Source players they added to their roster, the Source players couldn't cope. Despite everything about the game being the same (same maps, same round times, same gun prices/damage/ammo count), the harsher mechanics of 1.6 screwed them. They were getting wrecked by CEVO-im/main teams, which is equivalent to top tier High School/average college level, if the Pro world is the NFL. *And yes, that example was when Source first came out, so it may not have been the best analogy. The aggregate skill of a random pub was awful. I completely pooped down everyone's throat. I tried it again recently, people are much better now. =( | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
I don't read the SC2 forum much, I would be surprised if FA hasn't mentioned this before but it should be quite a convincing point. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
I personally think that can more-so be attributed to the WC3 scene being more analogus to the international SC scene than the Korean pro-scene - ie Draco finished 2nd in the TSL after being "retired". Then you have to keep in mind that WC3 has many other aspects to it that SC2 wont have - Heroes, Creeps, Upkeep.. You could also argue that WC3 strategies are less varied than SC and that it's less significant (the lack of base management) as WC3 is primarily a game of small skirmishes and micro. In the end I agree that it's a good example anyway, as you said. | ||
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InRaged
1047 Posts
On December 24 2008 22:57 inReacH wrote: I find it kind of strange that I've never seen anyone point out that WC3 base management is the easiest thing on the planet(not to mention there is little opportunity for mid-late game harassment) and yet there is still dominance in the game from a small number of players. I don't read the SC2 forum much, I would be surprised if FA hasn't mentioned this before but it should be quite a convincing point. That was mentioned before. In fact, that was said countless times from the very beginning of mbs discussions. For no avail though, because then it usually get twisted into Macro vs Micro argument. On December 24 2008 20:04 mikneb wrote: Been lurking the forums for a decent amount of time now, and this is the only thread thus far that prompted me to register. I don't get one thing - why This thread made you post about mbs/automining? ;P | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
FA you should really make sure I never get access to an account with a banhammer because holy fuck would I thin the herd like a tornado rips upon the pastures in the wide open plains of Kansas. | ||
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
=) | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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Tritanis
Poland344 Posts
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
On December 24 2008 23:54 inReacH wrote: What a world this would be if this entire thread had as much quality discussion as most of this page does.. one can only dream. there is pretty much no discussion anymore,on these forums, everything is now one sided towards ur side btw congratulations | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On December 25 2008 00:42 Ki_Do wrote: there is pretty much no discussion anymore,on these forums, everything is now one sided towards ur side btw congratulations And yet still FA insists on closing my threads. I understand the thread took a turn off topic but that doesn't mean the OP/first few pages didn't deserve a few more days of exposure before it died off naturally... It didn't actually bother me until I just typed that up.. Oh shit I just took this thread off topic too! Better close it! | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
just wish unit respond time and animation was faster. edit: wtb vultures pst. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
The game looked alright, although Im gonna miss the precise micro required like using scv's to defend etc. Everything just moves around so ... smoothly. | ||
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
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Telemako
Spain1636 Posts
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Latham
9560 Posts
On December 25 2008 04:31 Telemako wrote: I disliked how a mass marauder with new vults backup was too strong for a toss with expos but who couldn't find a counter for them =/ Keep in mind the toss was on 3 gates the whole game. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
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InRaged
1047 Posts
On December 25 2008 04:31 Telemako wrote: I disliked how a mass marauder with new vults backup was too strong for a toss with expos but who couldn't find a counter for them =/ toss with expos... and only three gateways. Think about it, closer to the end of the game he had as many expands as he had gateways. I think that's a reason why he couldn't find a counter lol On December 25 2008 00:16 Tritanis wrote: In ep2 they better show some more recent footage... and hopefully some better guys playing... They better show ep2... | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
On December 25 2008 00:16 Tritanis wrote: In ep2 they better show some more recent footage... and hopefully some better guys playing... They better show some zerg too. | ||
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
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mrgerry
United States1508 Posts
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On December 25 2008 00:14 FrozenArbiter wrote: Renamed it to EP1. Maybe a good idea? Thank you! =D | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 25 2008 08:04 mrgerry wrote: Seeing as they put all that work into the fancy downloader I'm sure we will see more Battle Reports, I hope That downloader has been used for a long time, for many Blizzard products. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On December 25 2008 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote: That downloader has been used for a long time, for many Blizzard products. It was invented for wow to distribute content and have been used for all of their bigger downloads since. It is basically just a special kind of torrent client that also lets you download directly from their own servers at the same time as you got p2p downloads, and if you want you can use some other torrent client for the same downloads. Anyway, distributing such episodes shouldn't take that much time and is a great way to show off the game so I think that we will see more, especially since it was labelled episode 1. On December 25 2008 04:31 Telemako wrote: I disliked how a mass marauder with new vults backup was too strong for a toss with expos but who couldn't find a counter for them =/ Terran went for a much earlier expo so he had more money most of the game, and protoss wasted a ton on the colossi. Also since marauders + hellions have no AA and is later tech than zealot + stalker it is not dumb that they beat it, however since we did not see the whole protoss arsenal being used it could very well be so that if the toss use some other units they would beat the terrans on ground unless the terrans used siegetanks just as before. For example toss should have used immortals since they counter both the marauders and the hellions, forcing terrans to go for marines which gets countered by colossi/templars etc. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
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cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
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Telemako
Spain1636 Posts
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
And wow, warp in is really, really cool After rewatching the video it seems like you can kite in this game (which makes me REALLY happy, not the other gay wc3 kiting mechanics). Seems like Nal_Ra was right, once the game hits onto the pro-scene its going to be fucking hectic as hell. One thing that kinda worries me still is the lack of units with special characteristics. In SC1 every unit was 'special' in each of their own form. But when I see SC2 units, they feel really bland and unoriginal. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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Dariush
Romania330 Posts
On December 24 2008 22:57 inReacH wrote: I find it kind of strange that I've never seen anyone point out that WC3 base management is the easiest thing on the planet(not to mention there is little opportunity for mid-late game harassment) and yet there is still dominance in the game from a small number of players. I don't read the SC2 forum much, I would be surprised if FA hasn't mentioned this before but it should be quite a convincing point. That's the whole point, anti MBS/automine people, like me, don't want a micro centric game. We want the option to choose our style. I don't even want to start again...this was discussed to death. | ||
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On December 26 2008 02:39 FrozenArbiter wrote: More on what Nal_rA said plz? :D it was when Zerg first came out I believe when the Koreans got their hands on it first It was a small showing on an OGN episode. Nal_rA was saying "WTF THIS GAME IS TOO FAST" or something along the lines of that. People asked questions to Bisu, but bisu didn't respond and told the interviewers he was busy. Then there was a showmatch of Savior vs Bisu, and  GUESS WHO LOST? | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On December 26 2008 02:44 Dariush wrote: That's the whole point, anti MBS/automine people, like me, don't want a micro centric game. We want the option to choose our style. I don't even want to start again...this was discussed to death. Thank god blizzard isn't listening to people like you. Let's take a look at an example just off the top of my head. This is Jaedong vs Tempest, Tempest has a macro rating of over 9 given by the GOMTV announcers and others. In this game, there is absolutely no harassment in this game and Tempest just uses many units to beat a much better player. http://www.gomtv.net/videos/487 This is Bisu vs Hoejja, Bisu uses reaver drops, DT drops and zealot/goon drops to completely overwhelm the lesser skilled player. Not only do these many small confrontations lead to the better player crushing the worse player with amazing decision making and control, but it makes for a far far far more exciting game to watch. http://www.gomtv.net/videos/505 I can't see how anyone can miss this. If you still don't get it read this. On December 24 2008 21:55 inReacH wrote: I feel that both your analogies are far too 1-dimensional to be relevant. I understand you chose these because they are easy to understand but I think the simplicity of them basically ignores the bigger picture of what MBS will ultimately allow players to do. A few things MBS will add to the game is dynamic rally points(this is huge), defensive structure targeting as well as greater control over your army. They are adding many new ways to harass a player for each race. It is undeniable that with MBS out, this will free time up for players and with these additional ways to initiate confrontation, there will be more confrontations on average in a given game <---- THIS IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE. With so many new ways to harass and the lack of NECESSARY static defense for each race.. Actually I'll get into that for a moment... I don't know if anyone else has pointed it out but I feel that even though there will be many more ways to harass, static defense is still not going to be a staple in any build because each race is being provided with a way to instantly get units to a certain location in their base. Zerg: Nydus Network Imagine a top pro who sees reapers jumping up on his cliff behind his main mineral line, does he regret not putting some sunkens? Maybe he would like to have 1 but he doesn't so he immediately uses a overseer to make a nydus near his mineral line and jumps his army over there. He will likely already have a nydus worm out on the battlefield, if he does not all the better for the spectators. Imagine him grabbing the overlord he has in his group, shitting some creep nears his army, immediately making a nydus worm and then sending units to his mineral line. This is all only necessary if he doesn't have units nearby etc... This kind of stuff is possible though and it gives zerg a safe way to get out of buildings static defense. Protoss: Warp In Terran: Sensor Towers Ok so now that we've established each race CAN go without much static defense(you have an economic advantage if you do) if they are skilled enough, this in addition to the multiple new ways of harassing I'll say it again... this means that there will absolutely be more confrontations per game on average. How much cooler is it to do two different types of harass on your opponent while defending one of his yourself? This takes much more skill than macroing, this kind of concept has an infinitely high skill ceiling and is much more impressive to watch. Imagine in real war if you have many different task forces trying to fuck over your opponent while defending his tiny offenses on your own. Games will become so unstandardized as no player knows who is exactly ahead. So many skirmishes in and around mineral lines and other ways to mess people up, things we haven't seen before. Stalkers finding their main army shooting down a HT and then blinking away. This is what they are trying to create I feel, this is why they added overlord drop in addition to nydus worms. They don't want you to be able to prepare for everything. I have seen games where people play like this.. The one that comes to mind is a TvP on Destination,I forget the players but both must have attempted harasses over 8 times each and the game was a marathon of confrontation. Both players looks so sloppy in some aspects even though they played really well, just because both of their strategies demanded so much themselves and of each other. Bottom line is, easier macro and more ways to harass makes for more small battles/skirmishes, more ways to affect the other players economy and fuck their tech up.. this all makes for less standardized games which makes for a much MUCH higher skill ceiling not to mention more variation of style from player to player. I do want to say that your first post is a great one and I really enjoyed it. | ||
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ExaltedElegance
United States81 Posts
i just started playing sc and watching sc after playing some of sc2 at blizzcon (which i originally went to for wow, go figure) and i can't find anything wrong with sc2 because i haven't devoted so much of my time to figuring out and breathing/living starcraft i am grateful this christmas for the fact that i can go into the sc2 beta, maybe as a total noob, where i'll get destroyed by every teamliquid member but at least i can go in not having the huge expectations as everyone else has and i'll be able to genuinely enjoy my time playing the game instead of lamenting what the game could have been | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 26 2008 11:01 inReacH wrote: Thank god blizzard isn't listening to people like you. Let's take a look at an example just off the top of my head. This is Jaedong vs Tempest, Tempest has a macro rating of over 9 given by the GOMTV announcers and others. In this game, there is absolutely no harassment in this game and Tempest just uses many units to beat a much better player. http://www.gomtv.net/videos/487 This is Bisu vs Hoejja, Bisu uses reaver drops, DT drops and zealot/goon drops to completely overwhelm the lesser skilled player. Not only do these many small confrontations lead to the better player crushing the worse player with amazing decision making and control, but it makes for a far far far more exciting game to watch. http://www.gomtv.net/videos/505 I can't see how anyone can miss this. If you still don't get it read this. *snipped out gigantic quote* .. Don't you realize that you are effectively proving his point? You listed two distinctly different styles of play, one of which wont be viable anymore. And you can easily find impressive macro wars that made for good games - first game that comes to mind: iloveoov vs Reach on Mercury, game 1 from the Ever 2004 OSL Semis. A more recent example would be Free vs By.Hero on Andromeda, which - while somewhat one-sided - was quite entertaining despite not featuring as much as a storm drop. Being able to choose wether you want to play a macro-oriented game or a micro oriented game is (actually more so was, modern BW is a more all-around game imo) a choice many cherish. I agree that the multitasking required can be made up for by making all the matchups play very "harass heavy" but there needs to be room for personal style. | ||
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[X]Ken_D
United States4650 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On December 26 2008 12:59 FrozenArbiter wrote: .. Don't you realize that you are effectively proving his point? You listed two distinctly different styles of play, one of which wont be viable anymore. And you can easily find impressive macro wars that made for good games - first game that comes to mind: iloveoov vs Reach on Mercury, game 1 from the Ever 2004 OSL Semis. A more recent example would be Free vs By.Hero on Andromeda, which - while somewhat one-sided - was quite entertaining despite not featuring as much as a storm drop. Being able to choose wether you want to play a macro-oriented game or a micro oriented game is (actually more so was, modern BW is a more all-around game imo) a choice many cherish. I agree that the multitasking required can be made up for by making all the matchups play very "harass heavy" but there needs to be room for personal style. Wtf, how many hundreds of people make the 1a2a3a4a joke disparingly? "Durr I make more units then I win" Imagine for a second the perfect RTS in your mind... if it allows a worse player to beat a better player simply because he made more units and A-Clicked into his opponents base as Tempest(worseplayer) did vs Jaedong(betterplayer) then SC2 is not the game for you. BTW it should be noted I have never ever made the 1a2a3a4a joke and I have condemned anyone who does despite being a zerg player. This is not a question of style, the style query should be answered by the multiple ways you can AFFECT YOUR OPPONENT not by allowing player to forgo harassing their opponents. If a race can decide not to harass the skill ceiling drops and the games become boring to watch. FA I know you're a smart guy who albeit may F5 this site a little too much can think rationally.. Do you really want players to be allowed to just not harass on the pro level? Is this what you think style is? | ||
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mikneb
Korea (South)5 Posts
Diversity in style is what makes a spectator sport varied and actually interesting to watch. The Steelers this year have a god-awful offense. They're ranked around 26th in overall offense, which is a travesty considering they are ranked 4th by MSNSports and ESPN. But they have such a resounding and stingy defense that they're allowed to squeak out very low-scoring games. Boxers that are awful fighting on the inside and have relatively weak punching power for their weight class fight on the outside, they use jabs to keep distance and look for openings to place a wicked counter-punch, which can compensate for the innate lightness to their punch. The same can be applied to micro vs. macro. If your micro is lacking, you can compensate by having better macro and overwhelming your opponents. Diversity in gameplay and thus a diversity in style allows for the methodical exploitation of certain inherent weaknesses to the style, which adds complexity to anything spectated, and makes it more enjoyable overall. What you're asking for in both of my analogies is to have football but be nothing but explosive high powered offense or boxing with nothing but obscenely powerful in-fighters. It has no depth in the overall grand scheme of things. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Imagine for a second the perfect RTS in your mind... if it allows a worse player to beat a better player simply because he made more units and A-Clicked into his opponents base as Tempest(worseplayer) did vs Jaedong(betterplayer) then SC2 is not the game for you. Making more units than your opponent is a perfectly legit way to win. Or do you think iloveoov was just worse than everyone he played when he destroyed everyone he played by outmacroing them? If you lose to someone because "he made more units than you", you played worse. | ||
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decembrie
93 Posts
On December 27 2008 00:17 FrozenArbiter wrote: Making more units than your opponent is a perfectly legit way to win. Or do you think iloveoov was just worse than everyone he played when he destroyed everyone he played by outmacroing them? If you lose to someone because "he made more units than you", you played worse. Amazing !!! How the hell can you say that the player that makes the more units is not better than the one who cannot match his macro... ? This is ludicrous, for crying out loud; doesn't macro matter at all anymore ? seesh damn newbies. | ||
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R-Rated
United States10 Posts
Why not for multiplayer SC2 have a pre-game option to turn off auto mine, like in the waiting room for when you create a game? Seems like specific ladders can be "no auto mine" and make only non-auto-mine game counts, and other ladders can be "auto mine is cool!". This could be easy for Blizzard to implement, and would accomodate both camps on the issue. It could be done for MBS too, though I believe that will be less of an impact on making macro easier. The pro scene would adopt either one. Anyone agree? Seems like such an easy compromise. If this hasn't been discussed yet, would someone like to make a new thread? | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On December 27 2008 01:33 R-Rated wrote: Been lurking for a long while and had a simple idea I wanted to post in a new thread, but since I'm a TL newb and can't create, this is the best thread to do it in right now. (Sorry if this has been put out there before, but I haven't seen it). Why not for multiplayer SC2 have a pre-game option to turn off auto mine, like in the waiting room for when you create a game? Seems like specific ladders can be "no auto mine" and make only non-auto-mine game counts, and other ladders can be "auto mine is cool!". This could be easy for Blizzard to implement, and would accomodate both camps on the issue. It could be done for MBS too, though I believe that will be less of an impact on making macro easier. The pro scene would adopt either one. Anyone agree? Seems like such an easy compromise. If this hasn't been discussed yet, would someone like to make a new thread? We REALLY need a sticky with stuff like this. It is just tiring to restart the same debate over and over and over... R-Rated, making UI-features optional has been refused to keep the playerbase united. As Developer Blizzard is interested to have one community, not 2 communities that might even have different demands, not to mention that each side would have less "partners" to play with. Imagine having to patch such a game. You would have to patch effectivly 2 games since the UI DOES affect balance. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5559 Posts
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
Second, if you think that's all oov does then you're crazy. Style is about what you do not about how the game allows you to do it, when korean announcers talk about flashes macro they emphasize economy management which is still in the game. | ||
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Mannequin
Canada131 Posts
As for MBS i do not think it will be a hit to players who have good macro it is really just good for players who like to have units keybinded to there numbers instead of a bunch of factories or barracs . if they make it so that if your have 12 barracs selected and you press M once it creates 1 marine instead of 12 it will be fine np but Automine no....i wanna see savior Destroy everyone in BW and SC2...hopefully. | ||
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ManWithCheese
Canada246 Posts
On December 27 2008 01:59 maybenexttime wrote: To support what Unentschieden has just said, just imagine if they removed smart-casting - suddenly the Storm's AoE size could back to BW's size. The same would happen for all other kinda of spells and gameplay mechanics. Just imagine Warp-in without MBS - a dumbed down Recall. ;; What makes you think that all spells would be instantly reverted back to their bw counterparts? BW and SC2 have completely different balance problems. For instance in bw if someone wanted to do 3 simultaneous storm drops at the same time in late game each storm drop would be separated by at least a few seconds, likely more given a normal situation and then the defender would at least have a chance to defend against it. Now take SC2 with how things currently are with or without smart cast someone could do 4 simultaneous storm drops with maybe a second separating each one, even with the reduced radius that seems like a shit ton harder to defend against. | ||
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
Board doesn't hit back You cant say that tempest won because his macro is "9". You also need to take Jaedongs micro macro and overall style, map and other factors too. Maybe jaedong made some mistakes? That happens too. And now matter how you put it, better player always wins, Tempest happened to be the better player in that game. I am discluding BO wins from this list now (4pool against 14cc for example) ALSO, you can do multiple drops at once and uber harassing, if you have the skills. No-one has that uber skills in this game at the moment. But still, maybe you can trade a bit of macro time for that epic harassment going on in 2 places at once. That makes BW more interesting in e-sports than starcraft 2 since there is more styles. That and the fact that no matter how you put it, BW will require more skill. You can't just go around that. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5559 Posts
On December 27 2008 10:56 ManWithCheese wrote: What makes you think that all spells would be instantly reverted back to their bw counterparts? BW and SC2 have completely different balance problems. For instance in bw if someone wanted to do 3 simultaneous storm drops at the same time in late game each storm drop would be separated by at least a few seconds, likely more given a normal situation and then the defender would at least have a chance to defend against it. Now take SC2 with how things currently are with or without smart cast someone could do 4 simultaneous storm drops with maybe a second separating each one, even with the reduced radius that seems like a shit ton harder to defend against. I didn't mean they'd make them BW size. Just that plenty of spells (and not only spells) would have to be rebalanced... | ||
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Dariush
Romania330 Posts
On December 26 2008 11:01 inReacH wrote: Thank god blizzard isn't listening to people like you. Let's take a look at an example just off the top of my head. This is Jaedong vs Tempest, Tempest has a macro rating of over 9 given by the GOMTV announcers and others. In this game, there is absolutely no harassment in this game and Tempest just uses many units to beat a much better player. http://www.gomtv.net/videos/487 This is Bisu vs Hoejja, Bisu uses reaver drops, DT drops and zealot/goon drops to completely overwhelm the lesser skilled player. Not only do these many small confrontations lead to the better player crushing the worse player with amazing decision making and control, but it makes for a far far far more exciting game to watch. http://www.gomtv.net/videos/505 Wow...I practically grew up with Starcraft, I know more about it than you think, I played tens of thousands of games, and they should listen to you with your fucked up logic? They shouldn't listen to anyone as far as I'm concerned, I have faith in the best game makers...but it's natural for me and some others to worry about things like MBS/automine, and to discuss them. | ||
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lwstupidus
United States74 Posts
On December 27 2008 16:32 MuR)Ernu wrote: Do you guys seriously think that the Jaedong vs tempest game was that way just because tempest has good macro? Board doesn't hit back You cant say that tempest won because his macro is "9". You also need to take Jaedongs micro macro and overall style, map and other factors too. Maybe jaedong made some mistakes? That happens too. And now matter how you put it, better player always wins, Tempest happened to be the better player in that game. I am discluding BO wins from this list now (4pool against 14cc for example) ALSO, you can do multiple drops at once and uber harassing, if you have the skills. No-one has that uber skills in this game at the moment. But still, maybe you can trade a bit of macro time for that epic harassment going on in 2 places at once. That makes BW more interesting in e-sports than starcraft 2 since there is more styles. That and the fact that no matter how you put it, BW will require more skill. You can't just go around that. I dunno man, I thought watching tempest sit in his base and mass units then attack move jaedong was pretty exciting. You can hear all the spectators going wild too, it wasn't because Jaedong was losing, they were just all in supreme awe of tempest's impecable 2base macro and attack move. | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On December 28 2008 09:52 lwstupidus wrote: I dunno man, I thought watching tempest sit in his base and mass units then attack move jaedong was pretty exciting. You can hear all the spectators going wild too, it wasn't because Jaedong was losing, they were just all in supreme awe of tempest's impecable 2base macro and attack move. Dude the person you quoted won't understand you are being sarcastic.. | ||
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NeoMesh
Canada49 Posts
On December 27 2008 10:38 inReacH wrote: First off, I had no idea that anyone from korea followed american football that closely. Second, if you think that's all oov does then you're crazy. Style is about what you do not about how the game allows you to do it, when korean announcers talk about flashes macro they emphasize economy management which is still in the game. Sorry buddy, he owned you. | ||
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I_QQ_GG
Canada16 Posts
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Augury
United States758 Posts
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On December 29 2008 07:36 Augury wrote: Really boring to watch. Vulture+Tank > Infantry what did you expect from "noobs" they wont make an interesting game | ||
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Jenia6109
Russian Federation1612 Posts
![[image loading]](http://s1.ipicture.ru/uploads/081230/pUWrfbs2Jr.jpg) | ||
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feathers
United States236 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5559 Posts
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
Didn't he just stand still with the stalker because the marauder's attack slows down a hit target? So if he would have tried to run he would just have been killed anyway. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On December 31 2008 20:09 ParasitJonte wrote: I was thinking about that first encounter too. Didn't he just stand still with the stalker because the marauder's attack slows down a hit target? So if he would have tried to run he would just have been killed anyway. Yep and suprisingly the Protossplayer never researched Blink which really suprised me. Wasn´t that the point of the unit? What is next, Siegetank without Siegetech? | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On December 31 2008 20:09 ParasitJonte wrote: I was thinking about that first encounter too. Didn't he just stand still with the stalker because the marauder's attack slows down a hit target? So if he would have tried to run he would just have been killed anyway. Doesn't slow mechanical units as far as I know. | ||
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Loverman
Romania266 Posts
On December 31 2008 17:12 Jenia6109 wrote: Well this saved the thread, too much arguing and whining on the same issues - -;; | ||
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ForVengeance
United States111 Posts
On January 01 2009 00:27 Klockan3 wrote: Doesn't slow mechanical units as far as I know. You can see the Stalkers getting slowed by Marauders concussion grenades in the vid. But youd think bringing a stalker + 1 probe might have helped a bit. You know, i was thinking a bit about how Blizzard is trying to pitch the game to new players, and seemingly leaving alot of the hardcore people feeling left out. And i wondered if there really is any other way. I mean, if Blizzard was to put out SC2 with total focus and product placement geared towards pro minded pre existing fanbase, it would hinder sales and initial fanbase. But it might be smart for them to just kiss noob ass for the first game, then once everyone is hooked and familiar with the game they will polish it moreso for the experienced player mindset. Kinda like the "easy to learn, difficult to master" theory but applied to marketing. So it would be "dumb it down for initial release, then once everyones hooked and familiar with the product take that to the next level". I seriously doubt the true genius of SC2 will kick in until at least the first expansion comes out. Not trying to sell the first game short since its not even out yet, but you know how expansions go. | ||
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lwstupidus
United States74 Posts
On December 29 2008 07:36 Augury wrote: Really boring to watch. Vulture+Tank > Infantry Agreed, the patented press siege mode and attack move vultures is one of my favorite parts of TvP. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
No worries dude, I'm a game designer, not a game commentator. There are lots of professional commentators all over the world, but I am one of the few people in the world right now that knows the game really well. I'm afraid you're stuck with me until we go Beta. Then the professionals can take over and I can just watch.=) I saw some concerns that this game wasn't "real." It is in fact a real game. We looked through a big list of games (two dozen or so) that had already been played (real games with 2 players trying to kill each other) and we picked the best ones. We showed some of these at Blizzcon and now we have this one up for everyone to see. By the very nature of how we capture the video for the game we had to watch it several times before we did the audio so it wasn't my first time seeing it (which is why sometimes I get ahead of myself), but it was a live game with real players when it was being played. Yes, Zealot charge really did finish training at that crucial moment. =) I don't know when the next one is coming. We have some things I want to get in and make look somewhat presentable before we fire up the next one, but I hope it's soon. http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=13769837645&sid=3000&pageNo=4 | ||
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I enjoyed almost every single moment of it (despite them playing bad, but I have to be nice since it is still an unreleased game). I wish they showed some Zerg though. Preferably ZvT, I am very curious if like Dustin said, the 10hp upgrade will allow marines to safely tech to medivacs. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Thankfully SC2 Terran won't just be SC1 Terran minus Medics, so maybe they can make it fun anyway. Maybe. | ||
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wanderer
United States641 Posts
this is just like the C&C3 battlecast series. ( btw check out on commandandconquer.com how the #1 player in 1v1 has the starcraft box art as his avatar \m/ ) | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
and wtf is this porting-through-pylon bullshit. so you're telling me if you can build a pylon in someone's base you can port zealots through there how is this fairrr??? | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On January 10 2009 01:32 FrozenArbiter wrote: Yes, and why not? It's cool. i dono man. think about it: this ability is already found in starcraft:broodwar, albeit for zergs with nydus canal. but for zergs to use it successfully, there are a series of well-deserved barriers in play: hive tech, proxy hatchery, nydus can build time. but in sc2 protoss can skip all that with just one pylon???? or perhaps it is comparable to recall in bw... but cmon recall is one of the last things toss is able to get in broodwar, but in sc2 they can get it in the opening game? that's IMBA yo... unless every race has this kind of teleporting flexibility. even if it is cool, i hope they nerf that to shit and i hope the game moves faster =) | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
During the beta, balance will be hammered out even more. It's easy to argue things are imbalanced. "The Zerg have a unit that can make all of there other units invincible to ranged attack ... IMBA!" But what matters is how it actually is used in the game, as well as what opponents can to to counter it / prevent it. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On January 11 2009 12:36 Ancestral wrote: d_so, it's stupid to argue about the balance of a game only a very small portion of the public has played. That huge write-up about the game that TL staff did did point out some imbalance, but the balance changes all the time as it is tested and revised in house. During the beta, balance will be hammered out even more. It's easy to argue things are imbalanced. "The Zerg have a unit that can make all of there other units invincible to ranged attack ... IMBA!" But what matters is how it actually is used in the game, as well as what opponents can to to counter it / prevent it. look, i understand that the game is far from finished, and i'm not trying to quibble over little things here and there. but the concept of teleportation has always been held by blizzard as a powerful one, and if incorporated into a game, is only attainable after a significant investment into technology/infrastructure/experience (WoW Hearth Stone, once per every 45 minutes?, WC3's Archmage ultimate, Broodwar nydus canal, recall). To see such a drastic change in the company's philosophy and have such a powerful ability available so early in the game is at the very least shocking, and at its worst, blatantly imbalanced. but we'll see. | ||
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GogoKodo
Canada1785 Posts
On January 11 2009 12:18 d_so wrote: i dono man. think about it: this ability is already found in starcraft:broodwar, albeit for zergs with nydus canal. but for zergs to use it successfully, there are a series of well-deserved barriers in play: hive tech, proxy hatchery, nydus can build time. but in sc2 protoss can skip all that with just one pylon???? or perhaps it is comparable to recall in bw... but cmon recall is one of the last things toss is able to get in broodwar, but in sc2 they can get it in the opening game? that's IMBA yo... unless every race has this kind of teleporting flexibility. even if it is cool, i hope they nerf that to shit and i hope the game moves faster =) Except it's not just 1 pylon. It's 1 pylon and upgraded gateways to warpgates. It's not a teleporting ability really, it's a building ability. You can only 'teleport' as many units as you have warpgates, and then you have to wait for the build time for your next wave of units. | ||
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armed_
Canada443 Posts
On January 11 2009 12:55 d_so wrote:(WoW Hearth Stone, once per every 45 minutes?, WC3's Archmage ultimate, Broodwar nydus canal, recall). To see such a drastic change in the company's philosophy and have such a powerful ability available so early in the game is at the very least shocking, and at its worst, blatantly imbalanced. but we'll see. The fact that warp-in is tied to unit production means it's much less powerful than any of those other abilities. Any of those others scale in effectiveness based on your army, which can always do significant damage, so making use of them is just a matter of getting access to the ability. Hence why access to them has to be limited to later in the game to be easily balanced. Warp-in, on the other hand, scales based on the number of production facilities you have. Making use of it in any of the ways that make those other abilities so powerful would require you to have a large number of gateways, so nothing like that should come into play until late game anyway. Before then it has a very significant limit on the number of units you can teleport; this makes it much more feasible to balance as an early-mid game ability than any of the ones you mentioned. I'd predict that apart from cheesy stuff, in early-mid game warp-in will just be used eliminate the factor of the distance reinforcing units have to travel, which isn't too difficult to balance. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On January 11 2009 13:17 xgc-Infinite wrote: Except it's not just 1 pylon. It's 1 pylon and upgraded gateways to warpgates. It's not a teleporting ability really, it's a building ability. You can only 'teleport' as many units as you have warpgates, and then you have to wait for the build time for your next wave of units. so instead of being the units exiting from a gateway, they show up at the pylon? i guess that's a bit different, and pardon me for not fully understanding it, but that still means instantaneous reinforcements... maybe not so bad though. i ono. im not trying to shit on the game entirely, and since i misunderstood the concept i might have spoken too soon. we'll see~~ | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On January 11 2009 13:28 armed_ wrote: The fact that warp-in is tied to unit production means it's much less powerful than any of those other abilities. Any of those others scale in effectiveness based on your army, which can always do significant damage, so making use of them is just a matter of getting access to the ability. Hence why access to them has to be limited to later in the game to be easily balanced. Warp-in, on the other hand, scales based on the number of production facilities you have. Making use of it in any of the ways that make those other abilities so powerful would require you to have a large number of gateways, so nothing like that should come into play until late game anyway. Before then it has a very significant limit on the number of units you can teleport; this makes it much more feasible to balance as an early-mid game ability than any of the ones you mentioned. I'd predict that apart from cheesy stuff, in early-mid game warp-in will just be used eliminate the factor of the distance reinforcing units have to travel, which isn't too difficult to balance. good points, but "the distance of reinforcing units" is exactly what makes proxying barracks/gateways/hatcheries such a high risk/high reward strat right now. as it's one of the more critical opening decisions a player can make, i'd say that gives a significant advantage. but since we don't know exactly what the tech tree for it will be, or what similar abilities other races may have imma hold off on calling it imba... sorry bout that and thx for all the information. | ||
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
And also, what if in lategame you have like 20 gateways? Then you build one pylon when you have for example terran in a contain. I mean near your army. Your army will get too much reinforcements too quickly. I have to say i don't like this stuff. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On January 24 2009 06:02 MuR)Ernu wrote: PROXY PYLON DT IMBA. I mean seriously, you don't have to even move them through the map? How is that not imba? Ofc they can nerf it somehow but still. And also, what if in lategame you have like 20 gateways? Then you build one pylon when you have for example terran in a contain. I mean near your army. Your army will get too much reinforcements too quickly. I have to say i don't like this stuff. It's a new game. Wait until it's released god damnit. | ||
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Bash
Finland1533 Posts
This page of this thread wrote Protoss have a permanently cloaked unit that does 40 damage in one swoop?? IMBA obviously as I'm sure such abilities exist in a vacuum. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On January 24 2009 06:02 MuR)Ernu wrote: PROXY PYLON DT IMBA. I mean seriously, you don't have to even move them through the map? How is that not imba? Ofc they can nerf it somehow but still. And also, what if in lategame you have like 20 gateways? Then you build one pylon when you have for example terran in a contain. I mean near your army. Your army will get too much reinforcements too quickly. I have to say i don't like this stuff. Let's not talk about balance for a game that isnt even in beta yet -_- It's like saying "OMG RECALL SO IMBALANCED". "OMG DTS ARE INVISIBLE, IMBALANCED". EDIT: Bash apparently covered this already, oops :D | ||
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Nitrogen
United States5345 Posts
but isn't one of the main purpose of this forum is to discuss sc2, so i don't think you should discourage discussion about the balance of the game. i mean sure, they might take it out later or nerf it, but for now i think it is a valid discussion topic. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On January 24 2009 10:14 Nitrogen wrote: uhhh.. dts are imbalanced ofc. but isn't one of the main purpose of this forum is to discuss sc2, so i don't think you should discourage discussion about the balance of the game. i mean sure, they might take it out later or nerf it, but for now i think it is a valid discussion topic. Yes, let's discuss balance of a game that's not out yet --; In specific cases it's ok, but making a post saying "OMG Teleport anywhere on the map? That sounds mighty imbalanced to me!" is completely unacceptable. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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ChaoSbringer
Australia1382 Posts
I think a lot of people are still stuck in a SC:BW mindset when it comes to talking about SC2. I think most will acknowledge that protoss is generally the strongest/easiest race when played at the general low level (compared to even the korean amateur scene) that most foreigners play at. So when something is announced for protoss, people seem to think 'oh, more protoss imba, just like in SC:BW'. Of course they're on crack, because very few have even played the game yet, and even those who have can only give general, vague comments since whatever they played will be vastly outdated by now. | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
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axion
Norway110 Posts
inReacH: I can't wait!!! | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On January 09 2009 16:13 wanderer wrote: http://commandandconquer.com/portal/site/tiberium/article/detail?contentId=04ba3d9fff74e110VgnVCM100000100d2c0aRCRD this is just like the C&C3 battlecast series. ( btw check out on commandandconquer.com how the #1 player in 1v1 has the starcraft box art as his avatar \m/ ) this is funny i am watching itedit: i finished it.. WHAT a fucked up game is this. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On January 24 2009 21:16 freelander wrote: this is funny i am watching itedit: i finished it.. WHAT a fucked up game is this. Yeah I watched it too ... are all C&C games 5 minutes long..? | ||
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Sonu
Canada577 Posts
On December 19 2008 17:35 ArC_man wrote: Well, they are trying to sell the game to people who never played SC before while also trying to show us the game has enough depth to reach a level similar to SC. Listening to Dustin's commentary at Blizzcon, I felt as if he took every opportunity to point out to us "Hey, micro still exists, look! This is like regular Starcraft!". So true Some people were getting the feeling that because Dustin Browder came from EA, he was going to ruin SC2. So i guess he was trying to show us that he knows wat sc is.. I dont mind the commentary. fun to listen to. he good at commentating battles between units, but u cant compare him to peeople like Artosis, Tasteless, Klazart, Cholera.. u know the guys. | ||
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AdunToridas
Germany380 Posts
Now if you look at the first part of the BlizzCON-video (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/41334.html) you can predict what happens in one of the next videos... | ||
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rkarhu
Finland570 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
And IMO buildings are too big for that map... I like the fact that in SC:BW you need to build 8-10 Gates or Factories to keep up your unit production, at least in this map it looked totally impossible to build more than 5 gates for toss and 3 barracks and 2 factories looked pretty crampy on terran side... but on top of everything we need to keep in mind that is still an ongoing work and in general I would say I look forward to SC2 :D | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
On January 24 2009 17:25 inReacH wrote: God I want to play SC2... anyone with me? Actually, I'm far more hyped for DoW II than SC II right now and if this two games would be released simultaneousely I'd definitely go for DoW. | ||
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InRaged
1047 Posts
On January 28 2009 00:28 Manit0u wrote: Actually, I'm far more hyped for DoW II than SC II right now and if this two games would be released simultaneousely I'd definitely go for DoW. You haven't played DoW II yet. After playing a bit, I wouldn't buy it even if there wasn't SCII. It's like WCIII for dummies in sci-fi setting :3 Disappointing to be honest. Single player could be interesting though. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
On January 28 2009 01:15 InRaged wrote: You haven't played DoW II yet. After playing a bit, I wouldn't buy it even if there wasn't SCII. It's like WCIII for dummies in sci-fi setting :3 Disappointing to be honest. Single player could be interesting though. I've been playing WH40K tabletop for quite some time, I loved the DoW series (up until SoulStorm which sucked) and I loved WC3. There is no way I couldn't be hyped for it, will see how it works tomorrow. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
http://store.steampowered.com/app/15660/ 5 hours You could play through the night! | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
On January 28 2009 04:36 FrozenArbiter wrote: Actually: http://store.steampowered.com/app/15660/ 5 hours You could play through the night!3 more hours, which means 1am for me = tomorrow. And I have no idea how long the download/install will take. | ||
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