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On December 23 2008 09:09 thunk wrote:
The commentary was so corny =p. They tried to imitate Tasteless and it was pretty funny watching them ooh and ahh over basic micro (oh HE PULLED THE INURED UNIT BACK!!!).
I was just thinking that too. It felt like they had to force themselves to sound as enthusiastic and energic as Tasteless does sometimes, and that just felt really weird. I didn't really mind it tho, the vid was cool, it just felt weird.
Haven't really been following the progress of SC2 alot, but it's starting to look pretty cool, and I do think it will be able to be the best competative esport when it's released, and I'm really looking forward to playing it!
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is awesome32282 Posts
oh come on is game presentation who cares about commentary, they just want to present it in a cool way. Once the game is out im sure within the player base people will commentate and be super good at it and whatever.
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Been lurking the forums for a decent amount of time now, and this is the only thread thus far that prompted me to register.
Let me get this out of the way. I'm looking forward to SC2. I have complete faith in Blizzard, who has never (in my knowledge), released a bad game. Even WoW, depending on which camp you are in about that game, is an extremely polished and enjoyable game to play on a mechanical and overall meta-game level.
Here's my gripe with SC2, after having watched the video:
I'm fairly new to the game. And I know as a Korean that that makes for the ultimate heresy. But I've come to the point that I understand that professional players are professionals because they have completely mastered the utter clunkiness of the UI. You can only select 12 units, you can only hotkey 1 building, AI pathing is completely retarded sometimes. They can micro and macro on a ridiculous level simultaneously.
And I can understand why a new improved sequel to a game should also include new and improved UI modifications to make things more efficient. It's counter-intuitive to say otherwise.
But here's the thing: things that marginalize and lower the skill ceiling is going to be the death of the competitive scene. Even with BW, which is a game that has the most intensive skill ceiling I've ever played.
I come from competitive CS 1.6. We had our own situation like this, with CS: Source coming out. It was prettier, by far, but on a mechanical level, things were far easier. Now here's the thing. I was very good at 1.6, so most of that immediately translated over to Source. Whereas I would go 40-10ish as a ratio in a random pub, I went 100-3 ratio over in Source. It was just that easy. But I was also getting killed in some random instances. People were running at me full speed across the map, zigzagging and spraying a TMP at me full-auto, and somehow headshot me and killed me. That would never have happened in 1.6, the bullets would be shooting at the sky if someone tried that.
And then the community split between both games. Both games suffered as a result. 1.6 lost alot of desperately needed influx of new players and pubbers to sustain its competitive growth, and Source just floundered on a highly competitive level with the boring gameplay. People who appreciated the deep skill curve and the nuances of the movement/aiming/recoil mechanics to the original 1.6 refused to touch Source. People who found Source easier and more enjoyable argued that their game was the future as that with EVERYONE having the advantage of an easier recoil system, you had to be THAT much quicker to be better.
But that's the thing. That's awful logic. MBS and Automine worries me, and rightly so. Yes, it'll give an equal advantage to everyone all across the board, but that is inherently faulty logic.
Let's say you're going 1 on 1 in shooting a basketball with a Pro. You were pretty good during high school, and fairly decent in college, but were nowhere near good enough to go Pro, even then, you played enough to know what you're doing.
A Pro would make their shot 9/10 times. You make it 6/10 times. This is a situation that would be attributed to Brood Wars, and my beloved 1.6.
Now, let's add the Automine/MBS analogy into the mix. You make the rim twice as big in diameter. It's a vast improvement for the entire playerbase, performance wise, but here's the thing.
A Pro would make their shot 10/10 times. The dumbing down of the gameplay mechanics just make him that much closer to perfection. But here's the catch. With the rim twice as big, you make it 9/10 times. Suddenly you are competitive with the Pro, despite the advantage being ubiquitous.
People watch spectator video games to witness things that they could never pull off. No one here would be interested in watching Muta harass with a simultaneous push of their army if they could not appreciate how difficult it is to macro your base/economy, and at the same time rally and position your units, while microing Muta.
The game will no doubt be enjoyable. I'm really looking forward to it.
But if MBS/Automine stay in, it's really going to threaten the skill ceiling, and subsequently, the competitive landscape of the game. Mark my words, there is never room for a competitive scene (even one as big as BW's), for a game and its sequel. Ever.
I know this topic has been done to death, just wanted to toss my one cent out there.
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Not all progamers can micro and macro ridiculously good, that what makes bw have variety of gamestyles.
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On December 22 2008 00:56 Boonbag wrote:
There is nothing to elaborate. At this point any serious opinion that tried the game out said more or less it was shit.
What's more, it does look like shit.
They didn't design properly a single game since brood war.
What most of naive people are delusional about, is only that the subpar quality they're delivering is tuned a tad higher than the overall garbage released every year by all other editors.
There's really nothing to argue.
Once the game will be released, then, argue all you want.
So far, it looks, smells, feels like a piece of crap of inacurate 2D rts game in a 3D engine.
There is NOTHING new. They didnt add ANYTHING. People blasting others with the argument "its not brood war, its another game" make me laugh.
And now, to make it even better, its advertised by a band of inbreed metal fuck heads.
Ahahah holy fuck try to sound intelligent more please.
"the subpar quality they're delivering is higher than the average" - LOL
This sentence contradicts itself.. So this is what people are delusional about.. so that means they think this but it isn't true.
The game has gotten great reviews from most people who have played it including myself.
Your post made me laugh quite hard, thank you.
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On December 24 2008 21:04 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2008 00:56 Boonbag wrote:
There is nothing to elaborate. At this point any serious opinion that tried the game out said more or less it was shit.
What's more, it does look like shit.
They didn't design properly a single game since brood war.
What most of naive people are delusional about, is only that the subpar quality they're delivering is tuned a tad higher than the overall garbage released every year by all other editors.
There's really nothing to argue.
Once the game will be released, then, argue all you want.
So far, it looks, smells, feels like a piece of crap of inacurate 2D rts game in a 3D engine.
There is NOTHING new. They didnt add ANYTHING. People blasting others with the argument "its not brood war, its another game" make me laugh.
And now, to make it even better, its advertised by a band of inbreed metal fuck heads.
Ahahah holy fuck try to sound intelligent more please. "the subpar quality they're delivering is higher than the average" - LOL This sentence contradicts itself.. So this is what people are delusional about.. so that means they think this but it isn't true. The game has gotten great reviews from most people who have played it including myself. Your post made me laugh quite hard, thank you.
This game has got bad reviews also by the players who have played it.
(i think tasteless played it and didn't like it, and i think some progamers didn't like it.)
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On December 24 2008 20:04 mikneb wrote:
Been lurking the forums for a decent amount of time now, and this is the only thread thus far that prompted me to register.
Let me get this out of the way. I'm looking forward to SC2. I have complete faith in Blizzard, who has never (in my knowledge), released a bad game. Even WoW, depending on which camp you are in about that game, is an extremely polished and enjoyable game to play on a mechanical and overall meta-game level.
Here's my gripe with SC2, after having watched the video:
I'm fairly new to the game. And I know as a Korean that that makes for the ultimate heresy. But I've come to the point that I understand that professional players are professionals because they have completely mastered the utter clunkiness of the UI. You can only select 12 units, you can only hotkey 1 building, AI pathing is completely retarded sometimes. They can micro and macro on a ridiculous level simultaneously.
And I can understand why a new improved sequel to a game should also include new and improved UI modifications to make things more efficient. It's counter-intuitive to say otherwise.
But here's the thing: things that marginalize and lower the skill ceiling is going to be the death of the competitive scene. Even with BW, which is a game that has the most intensive skill ceiling I've ever played.
I come from competitive CS 1.6. We had our own situation like this, with CS: Source coming out. It was prettier, by far, but on a mechanical level, things were far easier. Now here's the thing. I was very good at 1.6, so most of that immediately translated over to Source. Whereas I would go 40-10ish as a ratio in a random pub, I went 100-3 ratio over in Source. It was just that easy. But I was also getting killed in some random instances. People were running at me full speed across the map, zigzagging and spraying a TMP at me full-auto, and somehow headshot me and killed me. That would never have happened in 1.6, the bullets would be shooting at the sky if someone tried that.
And then the community split between both games. Both games suffered as a result. 1.6 lost alot of desperately needed influx of new players and pubbers to sustain its competitive growth, and Source just floundered on a highly competitive level with the boring gameplay. People who appreciated the deep skill curve and the nuances of the movement/aiming/recoil mechanics to the original 1.6 refused to touch Source. People who found Source easier and more enjoyable argued that their game was the future as that with EVERYONE having the advantage of an easier recoil system, you had to be THAT much quicker to be better.
But that's the thing. That's awful logic. MBS and Automine worries me, and rightly so. Yes, it'll give an equal advantage to everyone all across the board, but that is inherently faulty logic.
Let's say you're going 1 on 1 in shooting a basketball with a Pro. You were pretty good during high school, and fairly decent in college, but were nowhere near good enough to go Pro, even then, you played enough to know what you're doing.
A Pro would make their shot 9/10 times. You make it 6/10 times. This is a situation that would be attributed to Brood Wars, and my beloved 1.6.
Now, let's add the Automine/MBS analogy into the mix. You make the rim twice as big in diameter. It's a vast improvement for the entire playerbase, performance wise, but here's the thing.
A Pro would make their shot 10/10 times. The dumbing down of the gameplay mechanics just make him that much closer to perfection. But here's the catch. With the rim twice as big, you make it 9/10 times. Suddenly you are competitive with the Pro, despite the advantage being ubiquitous.
People watch spectator video games to witness things that they could never pull off. No one here would be interested in watching Muta harass with a simultaneous push of their army if they could not appreciate how difficult it is to macro your base/economy, and at the same time rally and position your units, while microing Muta.
The game will no doubt be enjoyable. I'm really looking forward to it.
But if MBS/Automine stay in, it's really going to threaten the skill ceiling, and subsequently, the competitive landscape of the game. Mark my words, there is never room for a competitive scene (even one as big as BW's), for a game and its sequel. Ever.
I know this topic has been done to death, just wanted to toss my one cent out there.
I feel that both your analogies are far too 1-dimensional to be relevant. I understand you chose these because they are easy to understand but I think the simplicity of them basically ignores the bigger picture of what MBS will ultimately allow players to do. A few things MBS will add to the game is dynamic rally points(this is huge), defensive structure targeting as well as greater control over your army. They are adding many new ways to harass a player for each race. It is undeniable that with MBS out, this will free time up for players and with these additional ways to initiate confrontation, there will be more confrontations on average in a given game <---- THIS IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE.
With so many new ways to harass and the lack of NECESSARY static defense for each race..
Actually I'll get into that for a moment...
I don't know if anyone else has pointed it out but I feel that even though there will be many more ways to harass, static defense is still not going to be a staple in any build because each race is being provided with a way to instantly get units to a certain location in their base.
Zerg: Nydus Network
Imagine a top pro who sees reapers jumping up on his cliff behind his main mineral line, does he regret not putting some sunkens? Maybe he would like to have 1 but he doesn't so he immediately uses a overseer to make a nydus near his mineral line and jumps his army over there.
He will likely already have a nydus worm out on the battlefield, if he does not all the better for the spectators. Imagine him grabbing the overlord he has in his group, shitting some creep nears his army, immediately making a nydus worm and then sending units to his mineral line.
This is all only necessary if he doesn't have units nearby etc...
This kind of stuff is possible though and it gives zerg a safe way to get out of buildings static defense.
Protoss: Warp In
Terran: Sensor Towers
Ok so now that we've established each race CAN go without much static defense(you have an economic advantage if you do) if they are skilled enough, this in addition to the multiple new ways of harassing I'll say it again... this means that there will absolutely be more confrontations per game on average.
How much cooler is it to do two different types of harass on your opponent while defending one of his yourself? This takes much more skill than macroing, this kind of concept has an infinitely high skill ceiling and is much more impressive to watch.
Imagine in real war if you have many different task forces trying to fuck over your opponent while defending his tiny offenses on your own. Games will become so unstandardized as no player knows who is exactly ahead. So many skirmishes in and around mineral lines and other ways to mess people up, things we haven't seen before. Stalkers finding their main army shooting down a HT and then blinking away. This is what they are trying to create I feel, this is why they added overlord drop in addition to nydus worms. They don't want you to be able to prepare for everything.
I have seen games where people play like this.. The one that comes to mind is a TvP on Destination,I forget the players but both must have attempted harasses over 8 times each and the game was a marathon of confrontation.
Both players looks so sloppy in some aspects even though they played really well, just because both of their strategies demanded so much themselves and of each other.
Bottom line is, easier macro and more ways to harass makes for more small battles/skirmishes, more ways to affect the other players economy and fuck their tech up.. this all makes for less standardized games which makes for a much MUCH higher skill ceiling not to mention more variation of style from player to player.
I do want to say that your first post is a great one and I really enjoyed it.
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There is no such thing as variation of style from player to player if the focus of them all is microing.
Only if the player himself choose to macro more in star2 the same way moon tried to multitask more in war3.
The best players play standard in most match ups, no matter the game, cause they have the ability, mechanics and strategy to deal with many things starting from its build order, incouragin tactics,guerilla warfare, w/e w/e is noticeable only in low level competition, if you watch Orc vs Undead in warcraft today, you are going to see walkers,riders,bm, fs
If you are watching PvT
You are going to see dragoons, zealots and (Add dt or reaver)
Brood War have enourmous potential to variated gameplay, from Jaedong incredible multitask, to ForGG awesome macro, Boxer/old school yellow micro oriented games
and even inside those groups u can see differences, NaDa Bisu and Jaedong have a game focused in multitask, but Bisu have stronger early game, NaDa tornado gave him a lategame strong force, and JaeDong mid game is always wonderfull due to his harasses.
Comparing ForGG and Oov for example, Oov somegames almost ignored micro and played a mini game called pump marines from barrax
ForGG have its influences, and follow a similar path but Flash is a good Macroer with wonderful strategy and timing, wasnt him that beat Jaedong using 2 port?
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Sweden33719 Posts
I come from competitive CS 1.6. We had our own situation like this, with CS: Source coming out. It was prettier, by far, but on a mechanical level, things were far easier. Now here's the thing. I was very good at 1.6, so most of that immediately translated over to Source. Whereas I would go 40-10ish as a ratio in a random pub, I went 100-3 ratio over in Source. It was just that easy. But I was also getting killed in some random instances. People were running at me full speed across the map, zigzagging and spraying a TMP at me full-auto, and somehow headshot me and killed me. That would never have happened in 1.6, the bullets would be shooting at the sky if someone tried that.
You realize that, assuming the players were of the same level in both games*, 100-3 is a far more desireable outcome from a competitive standpoint, as it means the better player is extremely likely to win?
*I'd assume there are a ton more casual newbies playing Source tho.
On December 24 2008 21:49 MuR)Ernu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2008 21:04 inReacH wrote:On December 22 2008 00:56 Boonbag wrote:
There is nothing to elaborate. At this point any serious opinion that tried the game out said more or less it was shit.
What's more, it does look like shit.
They didn't design properly a single game since brood war.
What most of naive people are delusional about, is only that the subpar quality they're delivering is tuned a tad higher than the overall garbage released every year by all other editors.
There's really nothing to argue.
Once the game will be released, then, argue all you want.
So far, it looks, smells, feels like a piece of crap of inacurate 2D rts game in a 3D engine.
There is NOTHING new. They didnt add ANYTHING. People blasting others with the argument "its not brood war, its another game" make me laugh.
And now, to make it even better, its advertised by a band of inbreed metal fuck heads.
Ahahah holy fuck try to sound intelligent more please. "the subpar quality they're delivering is higher than the average" - LOL This sentence contradicts itself.. So this is what people are delusional about.. so that means they think this but it isn't true. The game has gotten great reviews from most people who have played it including myself. Your post made me laugh quite hard, thank you. This game has got bad reviews also by the players who have played it. (i think tasteless played it and didn't like it, and i think some progamers didn't like it.)
No, it really didn't get bad reviews by anyone who has played it, aside from Rekrul - and I have no clue if he was the least bit serious.
Tasteless said he was worried about MBS.
All the progamers stated in public that they liked the game and it felt just like BW - being worried about MBS doesn't mean they think the game sucks.
On December 24 2008 21:04 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2008 00:56 Boonbag wrote:
There is nothing to elaborate. At this point any serious opinion that tried the game out said more or less it was shit.
What's more, it does look like shit.
They didn't design properly a single game since brood war.
What most of naive people are delusional about, is only that the subpar quality they're delivering is tuned a tad higher than the overall garbage released every year by all other editors.
There's really nothing to argue.
Once the game will be released, then, argue all you want.
So far, it looks, smells, feels like a piece of crap of inacurate 2D rts game in a 3D engine.
There is NOTHING new. They didnt add ANYTHING. People blasting others with the argument "its not brood war, its another game" make me laugh.
And now, to make it even better, its advertised by a band of inbreed metal fuck heads.
Ahahah holy fuck try to sound intelligent more please. "the subpar quality they're delivering is higher than the average" - LOL This sentence contradicts itself.. So this is what people are delusional about.. so that means they think this but it isn't true. The game has gotten great reviews from most people who have played it including myself. Your post made me laugh quite hard, thank you.
I don't know if that sentence is correctly written, but what he means is clear I think.. "Games released are shit, Blizzard games are just slightly less shit than the rest". I don't really agree with this sentiment but I think it's obvious what he means at least?
Anyway, I agree with you that if they can get the game right, it's possible the MBS actions will be replaced by harass/multi-front battles. It just has to be the best way to play the matchup(s).
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inReach, I completely agree with what you are saying.
My point was that in a situation where everything is held constant besides Automine/MBS, that the skill ceiling is diminished greatly. But I guess that is assuming that the gameplay is linear in the sense that there are two opposing bases without expos on opposite sides of the map with a narrow pathway in between.
But Blizzard employees aren't exactly idiots. Despite their marketing being catered to the casual players and their tendencies for flavor of the month PC game titles, they seem as if they are playing incredibly close attention to the effect that their design choices will have on the pro-gaming landscape. They understand the ramifications of MBS/Automine, and if they don't, I'm sure they have noticed the collective bitching of every SC-centric forum by now.
I just hope that other design elements they bring into SC2 can offset the ease of having MBS/Automine in a more dynamic sense. Like the options for more dynamic harassment as you said. And I'm pretty sure, correct me if I'm wrong, that the new gas mechanic was put in place, as retarded as it sounds, to make mining gas more tenuous and to force players to pay attention to their base atleast somewhat. But again, I could be wrong, build versions seem to change so many things that it's hard to keep up for someone like me who only casually follows the game's progress.
On an aside, I think given enough time, even with the additional harass mechanics and terrain climbing, that everything will be standardized. BW is already complex enough as it is and now, ten years later, there are specific build orders and counters to that said build order without much thinking outside the box. But that's a different topic altogether
I'm sorry, my posts tend to be extremely long-winded. Call it a narcissistic love for my own written prose. =)
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On December 24 2008 22:37 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +
I come from competitive CS 1.6. We had our own situation like this, with CS: Source coming out. It was prettier, by far, but on a mechanical level, things were far easier. Now here's the thing. I was very good at 1.6, so most of that immediately translated over to Source. Whereas I would go 40-10ish as a ratio in a random pub, I went 100-3 ratio over in Source. It was just that easy. But I was also getting killed in some random instances. People were running at me full speed across the map, zigzagging and spraying a TMP at me full-auto, and somehow headshot me and killed me. That would never have happened in 1.6, the bullets would be shooting at the sky if someone tried that.
You realize that, assuming the players were of the same level in both games*, 100-3 is a far more desireable outcome from a competitive standpoint, as it means the better player is extremely likely to win? *I'd assume there are a ton more casual newbies playing Source tho.
I'm not really comparing on the effects of gameplay mechanics on two evenly skilled individuals. It's moreso a concern on the gaming landscape as a whole. Let's say, for the sake of random numbers which can only serve to prove my point as they are made up in my favor =), that there are 100 S-class Korean gamers running the Pro-BW circuit. They are even with each other for the most part, and it comes down to the "any given Sunday" complex. The difference between the skills of the top 100 players are so negligible it comes down to the intangibles, who was on fire during the tournament, who was hungrier, and who was luckier, etc.etc. For the sake of my example, they are completely even.
The point I was making is that even if they are dead even in SC2, and still destroying lesser-skilled players, the dumbed down mechanics would allow for more people to easily rise up into the ranks of the S-Class Korean level playing field. Instead of 100 there are 300. Etc.etc. The new 200 S-Class players wouldn't be able to compete with the original 100 in SC1, but the easier mechanics allow the new 200 to go toe-to-toe with them in the sequel.
That poses an inherent question with the situation. Is it more competitive to have a mechanics for a large amount of players to be amazing, forcing those players to edge out wins with the intangibles, or is it more competitive to have such a deep skill curve that there are only a handful of players that compete at that high a level, and are for the most part untouchable?
As far as history goes, and I know it's not a direct translation as to what will happen with SC2, Source was the latter, and failed as a result. There was a huge merger in the North American community when the CGS came out. About 4-5 of the top American 1.6 teams moved over to Source and competed in a league with salary. Some of these players were considered the best in the world, and they were getting scorched by some of the finest Source produced. But when the CGS collapsed, and the teams moved back to 1.6 with some of the Source players they added to their roster, the Source players couldn't cope. Despite everything about the game being the same (same maps, same round times, same gun prices/damage/ammo count), the harsher mechanics of 1.6 screwed them. They were getting wrecked by CEVO-im/main teams, which is equivalent to top tier High School/average college level, if the Pro world is the NFL.
*And yes, that example was when Source first came out, so it may not have been the best analogy. The aggregate skill of a random pub was awful. I completely pooped down everyone's throat. I tried it again recently, people are much better now. =(
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Sweden33719 Posts
Yeah I wasn't really disagreeing with your overall point, just that specific example =]
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I find it kind of strange that I've never seen anyone point out that WC3 base management is the easiest thing on the planet(not to mention there is little opportunity for mid-late game harassment) and yet there is still dominance in the game from a small number of players.
I don't read the SC2 forum much, I would be surprised if FA hasn't mentioned this before but it should be quite a convincing point.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Yep, it's been brought up, although many people bring up things like Creolophus winning WWI and Blizzcon after being inactive.
I personally think that can more-so be attributed to the WC3 scene being more analogus to the international SC scene than the Korean pro-scene - ie Draco finished 2nd in the TSL after being "retired".
Then you have to keep in mind that WC3 has many other aspects to it that SC2 wont have - Heroes, Creeps, Upkeep.. You could also argue that WC3 strategies are less varied than SC and that it's less significant (the lack of base management) as WC3 is primarily a game of small skirmishes and micro.
In the end I agree that it's a good example anyway, as you said.
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On December 24 2008 22:57 inReacH wrote:
I find it kind of strange that I've never seen anyone point out that WC3 base management is the easiest thing on the planet(not to mention there is little opportunity for mid-late game harassment) and yet there is still dominance in the game from a small number of players.
I don't read the SC2 forum much, I would be surprised if FA hasn't mentioned this before but it should be quite a convincing point.
That was mentioned before. In fact, that was said countless times from the very beginning of mbs discussions. For no avail though, because then it usually get twisted into Macro vs Micro argument.
On December 24 2008 20:04 mikneb wrote:
Been lurking the forums for a decent amount of time now, and this is the only thread thus far that prompted me to register.
I don't get one thing - why This thread made you post about mbs/automining? ;P
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What a world this would be if this entire thread had as much quality discussion as most of this page does.. one can only dream.
FA you should really make sure I never get access to an account with a banhammer because holy fuck would I thin the herd like a tornado rips upon the pastures in the wide open plains of Kansas.
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everytime this is bumped and is in the top 5 on the left, I always mouse over it hoping it will say Episode 2.. 
=)
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Sweden33719 Posts
Renamed it to EP1. Maybe a good idea?
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In ep2 they better show some more recent footage... and hopefully some better guys playing...
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On December 24 2008 23:54 inReacH wrote:
What a world this would be if this entire thread had as much quality discussion as most of this page does.. one can only dream.
there is pretty much no discussion anymore,on these forums, everything is now one sided
towards ur side btw congratulations
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EPT
