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Thesis to Increase Macro and Innovation

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4099 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-22 20:03:48
September 11 2008 03:47 GMT
#1
Thesis to Increase Macro

Thesis to Increase Macro: Part 1 Mining
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78498
Thesis to Increase Macro: Part 2 Supply
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78501
Thesis to Increase Macro: Part 3 Support Buildings
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78657
Thesis to Increase Macro: Part 4 Production Buildings
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=79926
Thesis to Increase Macro Part 5: Gas
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=82730
Thesis to Increase Macro Part 6: Base Defense
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=84339
Contact at ArcherofAiur@gmail.com


Thesis to Increase Macro: Part 1 Mining



Here are the different sections of today's episode for anyone who feels like tackling them one at a time.
The Answer
Zerg Mining Mechanic: Harvesting Tentacles
Protoss Mining Mechanic: Warp- Out Fields
Terran Mining Mechanic: Automining
Closing Thoughts



The Answer


The solution is to make building up the war machine fun again.

1) Increased emphasis on buildings (treat them like stationary units with their own personalities and functions) make the user want to come back to base to do something cool like launch a nuke or cast a global effect.

2) Make resource gathering and army production engaging and interactive by approaching these tasks as a "mini-game". Whats needed is a game mechanics that plays within the confines of automining and mbs (and maybe secretly mimic traditional resource collection) and is still fun.

3) Use these two things as a way to add innovation to starcraft (which many critics claim is severely lacking).




Our Thesis begins with unique resource gathering systems for each race to further diversify and create three different playstyles. I would suggest keep the resources the same so that the core gameplay is the same. I propose three potential race resource mechanics.
Zerg Harvesting Tentacles
Protoss Warp- Out Fields
Terran SCV Automining



Zerg Mining Mechanic: Harvesting Tentacles

How It Works
This mechanic would require zerg players to return to their hatchery and select a tentacle. The player then drags this tentacle over to the desired mineral patch and releases the mouse. The tentacle latches on (accompanied by appropriate graphic) and can then begin harvesting the minerals at a rate concurrent with traditional worker gathering.

This solution is an optimal solution because it recreates the mechanical aspects of manual mining (non-automining) while masking the fact that theoretically this is the same as manual mining. Players have an expectation (from other current RTS games) that they should be allowed to automate their unit's actions and waypoints. They do not (yet) have expectations that they should be able to automate building responses. By introducing entirely novel systems you can once again require the player to perform a vital task (manage an army and a home base) without having them view it as a chore, burden or relic of an archaic system.

Additionally, the dragging and linkage actions should be accompanied by appropriate alien squirming, grabing, morphing etc. This provides a visual reward every time a new mineral line is established. For those who are about to respond that this so incredibly imba (yada yada yada) please note that the rates can be adjusted to give the exact same harvesting rate as a individual worker hiking back and forth from base to mineral. In case you havn't figured it out yet anything can be balanced (starcraft's three distinct races proved that).

So to clarify we no longer have drones for harvesting minerals (maybe keep them in some other capacity for making buildings/defense/gas). Instead, a link is manually established between the hatchery and minerals by the player. The act of establishing this link requires almost the same attention and clicking patterns that you had with traditional (manual mining) starcraft. This allows for all the engagement that conventional resource management enjoys…at least for the zerg player.


Community Feedback: Harvesting Tentacles

Dabman from Teamliquid.net proposed this:
“The tentacles themselves should cost minerals, either by permanently using a drone to morph, or being built from the hatchery. The added macro would come from the fact that there would be 8-10 mineral patches, and you would not be able to immediately create tentacles for every one. There would also be no horrible penalty for not making tentacles; after all, once the minerals run out, the tentacles are lost value. In general, tentacles would be the way to go if you had the APM to rush back to base from time-to-time to add another tentacle.”
(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78498&currentpage=4)

Dabman suggests allowing drones to upgrade into tentacles. I had originally conceived of tentacles as replacing drones but I like this dabman’s vision better. For a mineral price drones could mutate into a tentacle. They would latch onto a hatchery and a tentacle would shoot out of there back. The player controlled action could be the player selecting the drone, clicking morph tentacle and then selecting the hatchery. The player would also select a mineral line for the tentacle to latch onto. The tentacle would then function as a more efficient worker line. The player has now freed up all the workers that were mining that mineral patch and can use them for building production or send them to expansions. Dabman further suggest the mechanic be implemented in such a way that does not compromise the necessity of drones in zerg gameplay.

Purchasing the Tentacle
This is the area that will most benefit from playtesting. Should tentacles be purchased at the hatchery and then grown and then connected? Should tentacles be provided free and sporadically like larva and the act of connecting them require resources? Thoughts?

Why Zerg?
The zerg playstyle more than any other race focuses on large numbers of cheap units. It is only fitting that the zerg player be required to spend a portion of his time at the base generating macro advantage rather then just attack moving for 20 min.
Resource mechanic is new, strange and foreign: appropriate for the most alien of races.
Mimics biological systems (roots, blood vessels, proboscis)
Reinforces the hatchery as the nucleus of the zerg base
Could generate periodically like larva.

Advantages
Interactive
Macro Intensive
Aesthetically appealing
Characteristic of race themes and lore

Disadvantages
Different (AAAAHHHH)
Difficult (but not impossible) to balance


Credit Where Credit is Due
The tentacle idea for zerg harvesting (sans drag selecting) was proposed on Blizzard's forums a couple months ago by someone else. If that person wants to come forward and claim credit for that I would really like to discuss these issues with you.



Protoss Mining Mechanic: Warp- Out fields

How It Works
To collect minerals protoss players would need to select a base and "build" a warp-out field over a mineral field. Initiation of the warp-out field would cost money and the warp-out field would need time to materialize before it could begin phasing out minerals to protoss home worlds. In essence this requires the same actions as selecting a nexus (now probe) building a probe (initializing warp out field) and directing that probe to appropriate mineral field (placing warp out field on mineral field). An electrical disturbance animation along the lines of psi storm or disruption field signifies that this effect is in place and processing a mineral field. The process does not require further automation because it relies on construction actions. (and thank god for to automate construction actions would necessitate automation of all of base building).

Why Protoss?
Protoss are the masters of warping technology. If a race has the capacity to recall and warp-in units from one place to another the logical extension of this technology is to teleport your resources directly into your manufacturing systems. Aesthetically the electrical field over a mineral field will fit right at home with the Protoss look particularly in a new base with many warp-in and warp-out fields going up at once (make sure there different enough for visual clarity).

Warp Out Field Feedback Request
Question for you guys. Should warp-out fields have an upgrade ability? Should you be able to stack them?

Advantages
Player must come back to base to place warp out fields
Devotes attention and mouse clicks to macromanagement
New spin on old mechanic (warp-in)
Keeps with racial traits and lore
Only one probe required for a complete base (natural extension of starcraft 1 probe's ability to create a whole base by itself)

Disadvantages
Only one probe required for a complete base (we all know how much we hate having "heroes")


Surge Feature
One variation of my warp-out mechanic included a surge feature where the player can put a warp field in hyperdrive to generate additional minerals at the cost of decreased production for a time period after (incorporates parts of current gas build). For balance considerations this could be hard capped.



Terran Mining Mechanic: Automining

How It Works
Terran player clicks to make a scv and sets the rally point to a nearby mineral field. When the SCV pops out it immediately heads to the mineral field and begins its menial labor. Got it?

Here to explain why giving only one race automining might actually work is 1950's Family Values Dad and Lil Billy.
Lil Billy: Wow dad this game is incredible. Thank you so much for buying me starcraft 2.
1950's Family Values Dad: No problem son. You know in my day we didn't have all of those new features you kids have now like MBS and unlimited selection or that automining that the Terrans have.
Lil Billy: But dad I don't understand how come the Terran get automining while the Protoss and Zerg have to place all their gathering systems. Isn't that totally IMBA?
1950's Family Values Dad: Well Lil Billy, It is true that the Terran do have the advantage of being able to increase their mineral production while away at the battle lines. However there are a lot of advantages that the other races enjoy. For instance, did you know that you cant kill the Zerg harvesting tentacles. No you have to destroy the whole hatchery.
Lil Billy: Golly that's a huge advantage for the Zerg.
1950's Family Values Dad: Yes indeed. The attention that the Terran player saves by automating his minerals comes at the cost of having to protect his workers when his base is invaded.
Lil Billy: Oh I get it! The key to giving one race a cool thing is to balance it with equally cool features for the other races.
1950's Family Values Dad: Right you are son. Its all part of the elegant and cohesive balance that makes starcraft a truly extraordinary game. Any other questions?
Lil Billy: Will Russia destroy us in an atomic firestorm?
1950's Family Values Dad: We'll see Lil Billy, we'll see.


Why Terran?
As the race responsible for the Kel-Morian Combine you better believe the Terran are good at mining. They don't need no teleportation voodoo or some bio-prehensile appendage. No siree. YOU! Redneck trucker dude, go get in that suit and get outside and when your out there go mine some of that blue junk and keep doing that till I tell you to stop.
This resource mechanic feels the most familiar and thus perfect for the race closest to kin. It stands in stark contrast to the more "alien" resource mechanics for the protoss and zerg

Advantages
Traditional
Easy for beginning players

Disadvantages
Little macro for the terran player, this can be compensated by increased emphasis on building centered mechanics (more on this later).


Justification
Ultimately, it might not be a totally bad thing to have a race that favors heavy micro, one that favors heavy macro and one that falls somewhere in between (fits the racial trichotomy).



Closing Thoughts

Please remember these are not hard and fast ultimatums. I am not saying "this is how SC2 HAS to be or else it will fail and I won't buy it the end". What I am really advocating more then anything else is a new way of looking at macromanagement. I believe my proposal opens up avenues of design space that may have not been explored previously. The addition of contemporary UI features has proven incompatible with both the traditional macro SC2 enjoys and the multitude of aspirations SC2 hopes to accomplish. In order to fill all three of these big shoes the first thing that has to happen is for designers and fans to at least entertain novel approaches to RTS gameplay. Even harder then this but equally necessary: All parties involved must be prepared to compromise on some levels for the greater good. Because although starcraft as a universe is defined by the conflict of three obstinate and opposing factions, starcraft as a game can not be.

Pax


http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Hermione
Profile Joined August 2008
United Kingdom4 Posts
September 11 2008 03:57 GMT
#2
Mini game you say?

'YOU! Redneck trucker dude, go get in that suit and get outside and when your out there go mine some of that blue junk and keep doing that till I tell you to stop.'

aren't scvs black?

loloflrmao
Nitrogen
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States5315 Posts
September 11 2008 04:00 GMT
#3
waaaaaaay too much time spent writing this just to troll :\
UNFUCK YOURSELF
Hermione
Profile Joined August 2008
United Kingdom4 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-11 04:06:08
September 11 2008 04:04 GMT
#4
i found pixture

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
Fontong
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States6454 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-11 04:07:43
September 11 2008 04:05 GMT
#5
On September 11 2008 12:47 Archerofaiur wrote:

Disadvantages:
Only one probe required for a complete base (we all know how much we hate having “heroes”)



Hey, I like my hero probes! XD

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are proposing to basically eliminate workers for mining from both protoss and zerg? IMO, this would actually have the opposite goal of what you are trying to accomplish, which is to increase the amount of macro in SC2. Here are my reasons for thinking this:

1. No ability to maynard workers to a new expo/move workers from a mined out expo. It is common practice to over-saturate the main so that workers may be transferred to the natural, ect.
2. No offensive/defensive capability for zerg and protoss, since they won't have much reason to make workers except for building. We all know how crucial workers can be in defending a rush (Ex: Jaedong vs Lucifer). No more Kwanro ridiculous speed upgraded ranged drones slaughtering marines to win the game.
3. No more ability for zerg to quickly sunken up by pulling drones from the mineral line.
4. No more maps that use the dynamic of mining a mineral to bypass some obstacles, eg Plasma.

These are what I can think of offhand. What are your thoughts after considering these points?

Edit: lool, there could be 'instance' things where you can take control of a probe and mine minerals and snipe SCVs and drones n stuff. i would play that game all day.
[SECRET FONT] "Dragoon bunker"
Folca
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
2199 Posts
September 11 2008 04:07 GMT
#6
Holy hell thats a nice first poster
We should add one of those for the question batch....
Dea : one time when he was playing vs the comps he asked me "how do I make that flying unit that makes the other stuff invisible" and I reply "ur playing terran zomg"
CommanderFluffy
Profile Joined June 2008
Taiwan1059 Posts
September 11 2008 04:09 GMT
#7
ignore Hermione.

The main flaw in your suggestions lies in the whole idea of miner mobility. I'm under the assumption that Tentacles are connected to Hatches and Warp Out buildings will be stationary as well. SCVs are still mobile. So in essence Z and P resource gatherers are stuck in base as stationary buildings, and therefore more vulnerable to harassment. Bottom line: SCVs can run away from danger but stationary miners cannot. I feel this does not make any sense.

I also do not fully understand the Warp suggestion. is it AOE? do you warp minerals by selecting a single cluster at once? if its AOE it shares very few mechanical traits to BW's probe to each mineral patch. Clarify this.

BTW: thats a huge ass first post.
Pain is temporary, but glory is forever.
CDRdude
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States5559 Posts
September 11 2008 04:10 GMT
#8
Quite the impressive first post, I applaud your efforts. However, like 1950s dad points out, Terrans have to protect their workers. I think workers are essential, because of their weakness to harass. Basically, if we didn't have workers, the only way to inflict economic damage would be to destroy buildings. That would mean things like a single zealot harass or a few lings sneaking into a main would be useless because they have no potential for economic damage.

This is a really cool idea, and it looks like you put a lot of work into it, but I think you need to be able to blow workers up for easy econ damage. I'll give it some more thought though.
Force staff is the best item in the game.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4099 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-11 04:20:26
September 11 2008 04:19 GMT
#9
Does anyone know why my Suppy Mechanic Thread was closed?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78501


Is it a violatation of forum rule to post two big threads one after another?
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Fontong
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States6454 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-11 04:30:30
September 11 2008 04:19 GMT
#10
Yeah I don't know...I was trying to post there. PM a mod, or you could edit it into this thread.

Edit: maybe becos you made 2 threads in such quick succession..dunno

Edit2(becos i dont want to post again): You can PM a mod by clicking the 'PM' button in the upper left hand corner of the site, where it says 'logout.' Just type in a mods name and be like 'plox halp me '

If you don't know mods, here are some: FrozenArbiter, Manifesto7, Hot_Bid, Last Romantic(he is a mod right...?)
[SECRET FONT] "Dragoon bunker"
Centric
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1989 Posts
September 11 2008 04:22 GMT
#11
Why didn't you just edit the old post and put your new stuff in?
Super serious.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4099 Posts
September 11 2008 04:22 GMT
#12
How would I PM a mod?

I wanted to keep the two threads seperate because it is easier for me to compile the feedback I get from you guys.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Kennigit *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada19381 Posts
September 11 2008 04:33 GMT
#13
hi reopened. Sorry i thought it was double post
vAltyR
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States581 Posts
September 11 2008 04:34 GMT
#14
I kinda like the idea, though I'm sad to say I don't think it'll work out. But I do like the concept of one race being heavy macro, one being heavy micro, and one falling somewhere in between. And I could even go so far as to say which race should fill which role. However, that's a discussion of unit mechanics and isn't for this thread.

Good idea, though, but some issues do need to be worked out. Most people have already brought them up. The lack of protoss and zerg workers, for instance. I mean, come on, who hasn't seen the boxer SCV rush? And while from a lore point, the zerg and protoss mechanics seem very different, in gameplay, they would really be almost identical it seems to me. Though it could turn out to be like the zerg unit production in BW. The terran and protoss unit production were really quite similar; the zerg was radically different. *shrugs* I think this idea should be definitely looked into by blizzard. I hope they at least consider it.
내 호버크라프트는 장어로 가득 차 있어요
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5504 Posts
September 11 2008 04:50 GMT
#15
On September 11 2008 13:19 Archerofaiur wrote:
Does anyone know why my Suppy Mechanic Thread was closed?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78501


Is it a violatation of forum rule to post two big threads one after another?

Suppy Mechanics Thread, you say??? Hmm....

Great first post man, I just read through it and although there's some points I can say I can disagree on, I really enjoyed the read and the effort you put into this post. I'll give my opinions tomorow when I have time. In the meantime, I'd like to say those were great first posts, and welcome to TL.net!

+ Show Spoiler +
You must be Oakhill. I don't know the story behind it but bringing up topics like these will spark nice discussions so thanks
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
ZeroCartin
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Costa Rica2357 Posts
September 11 2008 04:57 GMT
#16
Well, I think they're nice ideas, but:

1) Dont think this will solve Macro probs
2) Too late to suggest a change as big as this
3) Too different from the starcraft we know
4) As others pointed out, stationary mineral gatherers seem to have a disadvantage.
5) Would be cool ideas for another game
"My sister is on vacation in Costa Rica right now. I hope she stays a while because she's a miserable cunt." -pubbanana
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4099 Posts
September 11 2008 05:00 GMT
#17
On September 11 2008 13:50 Superiorwolf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2008 13:19 Archerofaiur wrote:
Does anyone know why my Suppy Mechanic Thread was closed?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78501


Is it a violatation of forum rule to post two big threads one after another?

Suppy Mechanics Thread, you say??? Hmm....

Great first post man, I just read through it and although there's some points I can say I can disagree on, I really enjoyed the read and the effort you put into this post. I'll give my opinions tomorow when I have time. In the meantime, I'd like to say those were great first posts, and welcome to TL.net!

+ Show Spoiler +
You must be Oakhill. I don't know the story behind it but bringing up topics like these will spark nice discussions so thanks



I am not Oakhill
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-11 09:25:36
September 11 2008 09:24 GMT
#18
On September 11 2008 14:00 Archerofaiur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2008 13:50 Superiorwolf wrote:
On September 11 2008 13:19 Archerofaiur wrote:
Does anyone know why my Suppy Mechanic Thread was closed?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78501


Is it a violatation of forum rule to post two big threads one after another?

Suppy Mechanics Thread, you say??? Hmm....

Great first post man, I just read through it and although there's some points I can say I can disagree on, I really enjoyed the read and the effort you put into this post. I'll give my opinions tomorow when I have time. In the meantime, I'd like to say those were great first posts, and welcome to TL.net!

+ Show Spoiler +
You must be Oakhill. I don't know the story behind it but bringing up topics like these will spark nice discussions so thanks



I am not Oakhill
That's exactly what Oakhill would say ^^

Also, your suggestions are all too exaggerated (as in completely change the metagame) for a game that none of us know much about. How can you balance something you do not know? You're shooting in the dark, that's pretty much a 100% worthless waste of time. Why can't you just wait for beta, see exactly what the weak points of the game are. And then make exaggerated suggestions that at least are based on experience rather than pure speculation? Really, the game is not even fucking beta... chill out, calm down and wait until you actually play it and have any clue of what's going on.
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
Ki_Do
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Korea (South)981 Posts
September 11 2008 10:56 GMT
#19
dude, i am a terran, i want to macro too
wtf?
I've got a point, and i'm ready to kill or die for it.
MindCrusher
Profile Joined September 2005
Romania236 Posts
September 11 2008 13:55 GMT
#20
I like the ideas but there would be a lot of complications to the game.
Anyway very good post!
I will try to be nicer if you try to be smarter!
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