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Thesis to increase macro: Part 2 Supply Mechanics

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-28 04:12:39
September 11 2008 04:10 GMT
#1
Thesis to increase macro: Part 2 Supply Mechanics

Thesis to Increase Macro

Thesis to Increase Macro: Part 1 Manual Mining
http://www.gosugamers.net/Starcraft/thread/309856
Thesis to Increase Macro: Part 2 Supply Buildings
http://www.gosugamers.net/Starcraft/thread/321761
Thesis to Increase Macro: Part 3 Support Buildings
http://www.gosugamers.net/Starcraft/thread/326241
Thesis to Increase Macro: Part 4 Production Buildings
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=79926
Thesis to Increase Macro Part 5: Gas
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=82730
Thesis to Increase Macro Part 6: Base Defense Buildings
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=84339
Contact at ArcherofAiur@gmail.com






This section will focus on manipulations of supply in starcraft gameplay. I believe that like mining, supply mechanics hold much potential to increase macromangement.

Anyone looking for the first section will find the thread here (god I am so narcissistic):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78498





Ill introduce these mechanics by first by demonstrating a little bit of the method I used to generate them.

1st step: PROBLEM
Macro game in current build of starcraft 2 is not adequate to satisfy both the casual and professional gamer. Lead designers have frequently pointed this out and formally requested helpful ideas from community.


1st step: GOALS
I was trying to get help from the community with this thread http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general&t=1672735&p=1&#post1672735
but since no one really had anything to add ill just go with the goals I had

Macro must be easy and intuitive (for new players)
Macro must be simple and elegant (no CIV 4)
Macro must be strategically deep (for hardcore players)
Macro must to some degree satisfy the competitive Starcraft crowd with features that give battlefield advantage to players with higher APM skills
Macro must be fun

2nd step: STATEMENT OF PURPOSE
To create a maco mechanic that draws the player back to the base. Player must want to return to base because mechanic is engaging and advantageous to his war machine. Mechanic must not be subject to away from base automation and should not raise questions among the player base that mechanic would have been better if it had been automated.


3rd step: OBSERVATIONS
Most features related to building purpose and function have been automated. Presumption exists among player base that building actions that the player initiates like rally points and queuing should be automated. Contemporary RTS gameplay pushes player attention toward unit selected actions such as move, attack and special abilities.

4th step: CONCLUSIONS
Focus on macro mechanics in which home base units initiate building actions. Building actions will benefit player.










Zerg Supply Mechanic: “Recycle” Overlord (someone please offer a better name, consume was already taken by defiler)

How it works:
Zerg player can select a overlord and move it to over a hatchery (lair/hive). Player then selects hatchery clicks “recycle” and then selects overlord positioned over hatchery. The top hole claw thing of the hatcher (reference: http://www.starcraft2.com/screenshot.xml?s=80) would then snatch the overlord from the sky and swallow him whole. The hatchery would immediately regenerate all of is larva.

Why Zerg?
Zerg are the race that gets benefits from sacrificing units. Consider drones sacrifice to make building, mutralisk/hydralisk sacrifice to make guardian/lurker, infested terran sacrifice to make explosion, consume sacrifice to give defiler energy.
Zerg are also the only race who lack an ability to queue units. This may help alleviate that deficiency.
As the poster Zora on Starcraft Sources forums pointed out “Rapid breeding is the idea of the Zerg.”

Advantages
Allows a use for all those overlords floating around your base
Good for recovering after a large battle when you need to rapidly increase unit production and don’t need that much supply (since your army was wiped out)

Disadvantages
Trading an overlord for 3 larva is alittle weak. Perhaps make 6 larva spawn. Can anyone think of a more worth while effect that can be tied to overlord consumption. Thoughts anyone?







Protoss Supply Mechanic: Pylon “Activation”
(ok im gonna come out and say it…im not good with names, suggestions?)

How it works
A protoss player would select a probe. He would then select the “activate pylon” button and select a pylon. When the probe arrived at the pylon he would connect with it (lets say electricity shoots between probe and pylon like when the probe is harvesting mins) pylon would begin to spin. The activated pylon would then generate X amount of psi. After Y period of time the pylon would stop spining and lose its inner blue hue (yes blue psi should not be colored ). This pylon is now expended and will only recharge after T period of time. Now as soon as the pylon is expended the protoss players psi limit drops back to its original value. The probe can now go activate another pylon. For balance considerations lets set a hard cap of only P pylon that can be activated at any one time. I would set P as one pylon initially.


Why Protoss?
Protoss pylons are needed to tap into the energy matrix. The protoss are masters of manipulating psi to power their buildings, shields, abilities and robots. Also if you make it so that only one probe can “activate” at a time then (for better or worse) this keeps to the protoss theme of having one lone probe that can fulfill all base duties.


Advantages
Consider the pylon activation ability to be a way for a macro focused protoss player to get an extra X amount of psi. Players who tend to focus on micro are not forced to use this ability.



Disadvantages
Could lead toss players to place all of their pylons right next to each other so they could quickly move a probe from pylon to pylon. In my opinion this would look “fugly”. Although come to think of it the same kind of intent leads to placing gateways right next to each other.


This mechanic in particular worries me. I feel like there are some flaws. I also feel like it has great potential. But I really wanna hear what you guys have to say about it. Again bonus points if you can not only point out whats wrong with it but also a way to fix it :-P


As a side note this mechanic started out as a terran supply depot ability where supply depots could be activated to give temporary “bonus supply”. I realized that the player base would have an expectation that this building ability should be automated which was why I switched the mechanic to require initiation from a base unit. I then transferred this mechanic over to protoss because the mystic and alien nature of the toss lead to a better suspension of disbelief. In other words less questions would be raised as to how a probe activated a pylon to create more psi then would be raised as to how a scv activated a supply depot to have more beds, food, guns or what ever it is that constitute supply. Also activated supply depots would have just had fans that spin faster. This would be very hard to spot in the heat of battle. The pylons crystal in a ring structure is much more conducive to a spinning mechanic that can be quickly visualized. The coloration of psi on a pylon also provides a strong visual indicator as to the status of the pylon. Discuss.










Before going into the terran supply mechanic let me say that after thinking long and hard about possible terran supply mechanics I realized “Hey they already have a really good one!”. Being able to drop supply depots is an incredibly innovative and practical solution to these otherwise inert and mundane buildings. Terrans are defined by having base elements that are mobile and stationary. Supply depot sinking is a great mechanic that allows a depot to be both mobile and stationary. Terrans are also defined by deploying and transforming things. This allows you to deploy a depot into a different configuration. This ability allows for exciting gameplay options in early game encounters but will continue to have applications in middle and late game periods. The coupling of depots with ramp and choke points give terrans unique manipulation over entry and exit of points of interest. I believe this is the features most significant addition. It allows more versatility inusing depots as walls. My current proposal expands on this feature to give supply bonuses to terran players who construct walls and put more effort into base design.....Because lets face it, whether we like it or not terrans were born to turtle (rant on guys).



Terran Supply Mechanism: Depot Linkage

How it works
When a terran player places a depot adjacent to another supply depot (in line with so with straight edges). Two supply depot give a bonus of +1 supply (or 2 or X). Three gives a bonus of +2 (or 3 or X). Four depots give a bonus of +3 (or 4 or X). After four (or X) depots have been linked there would be no benefit for having additional depots linked. The most optimal depot placement strategy would be placing four depots in a row (a line or box or L or Z or T). Each supply depot group would need some visual indicator to show the player that it is part of a chain. For lore purposes lets say something about sharing facilities to something something production (who’s good with lore, themes and race feel…talk to me).


Another option I was toying with was requiring the player to have to do something to initiate linkage. While this would increase macro my personal opinion is its gonna be seen as more burden then its worth. Also I picked four because to allow unlimited depot connections would lead to one big giant depot block which is both unaesthetic and begging a nuke strike. Four seemed like a small number that would still allow adequate barricade lengths.
As far balance issues of having a race have more then 200 I don’t think its that big of an issue. This really depends on the numbers and the entire rest of the game build. However one straight forward solution I see is just don’t let the pylon activating ability work if it would be over 200 or don’t let depots give the bonus supply if it would put you over. That’s just one possible solution anyone see any others?


Why Terran
Terrans are the only race that gains benefits from attaching buildings to other buildings.

Advantages
More consideration for building placement.
Encourages use of depots as walls. Since depots are adjacent it is also easier to select and drop a whole wall.


Disadvantages
Extra attention that is needed to place depots correctly may not be sufficient to increase macro. I would imagine that after a player was acclimated this difference would amount to one or two seconds (milliseconds for pros).


I also toyed with terran supply mechanics that dealt with multiple building construction and militia features similar to the humans in warcraft3. I decided supply depot linkage had more potential but I may return to these two concepts later.








Addendum:
So I got allot of good feedback and the general consensus reinforced my worries about the pylon mechanic.


In contrast the overlord ability got allot of positive responces. So I said to my self “Why did the overlord idea feel right?” and the answer I came up with is that both its mechanical form and lore themes seemed to suit the zerg. This seems like something that would go on in a zerg base. So then I asked myself what is a protoss base about? What do I envision goes on there. What does a pylon actually mean in terms of basic game mechanics and also racial flavor? The pylon focuses the psi matrix to facilitate warping in buildings but it is the nexus which anchors the protoss base to the psi matrix.
Wizardpirate had a very interesting idea in response to this mechanic:

“ Protoss idea... iffy, maybe probes could have a channeled ability that makes the targeted building produce faster, with the more probes having a greater effect. The effect would also have a cooldown and maybe even a cost to discourage players massing probes for this effect. basically you could sacrifice mining abilities to temporarily crank out units faster. Hell you could also make the same ability ALSO give a slight shield boost for some extra defensive options by using probes to defend buildings. Abilities that have more than one use are never a bad thing.”

So I had originally toyed with the idea of giving terran some form of multiple workers to provide faster construction for buildings (think human peasants in warcraft 3). One of the problems with this was that it was difficult (but not impossible to balance) however after reading wizardpirate’s post I thought of a way of combing faster building production with the general feel of a protoss base in a intuitive manner that would be relatively easy to balance and increase macro focus. So without further ado….


Protoss Supply Mechanic: Psi Focusing

(Reference: http://www.starcraft2.com/screenshot.xml?s=11)
The current warp-in mechanic does a great job of demonstrating this by not only allowing the player to alter the space his units are generated but also the time it takes to produce them. Psi focusing will apply this theme of time manipulation to building production. By comboing faster unit production (through warp in) with faster building production (through psi focusing we) emphasis the dynamic and effiecent nature of the protoss. I believe (and the warp in mechanic suggests that blizzard agrees) that the protoss can use production time as additional resource by allowing macro players to generate their army and base faster.


Why protoss?
The protoss are masters at manipulating time and space.

Advantages
Draws parallels with warp out mechanic.
Reinforces the nexus role as….well a nexus
Emphasis new “optical” theme of protoss as evident in colossus and warp-ray beam and ray effects.

Disadvantages
Some portion of the gaming population may expect that the process could be fully automated so that you would just select your nexus and click the warp rift and the computer would automatically generate a path through the pylons. I feel (and id hope most players would agree) that automation in this manner would take allot of the charm away from this mechanic. I would also hope that most gamers would find this more interactive, strategic and fun then monotonously returning to your base to click a refinery.






These two mechanics illustrate a new direction I am trying to go in. I want to use features that are normally viewed as restrictive properties, such as building speed and available larva, and provide benefits for players with macro to use and while also making them fun and engaging for casual players.





http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
CommanderFluffy
Profile Joined June 2008
Taiwan1059 Posts
September 11 2008 04:15 GMT
#2
quik question: do you actually play competative BW?
Pain is temporary, but glory is forever.
Fontong
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States6454 Posts
September 11 2008 04:36 GMT
#3
Wow, and I thought your first post was good.

The overlord idea is pretty cool and fits very well with the ideas of zerg, already there is the defiler with utilizes a similar mechanic. Larva management is certainly an integral part of macro for the zerg player, so this is a good idea.

In contrast, I think the protoss and terran ideas are a little weaker in comparison, as far as balancing goes. Naturally there could be other advantages that they enjoy, so it doesn't matter much. But yeah..zerg overlord thing seems the most BW-ish to me.
[SECRET FONT] "Dragoon bunker"
SayaSP
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Laos5494 Posts
September 11 2008 04:38 GMT
#4
I think it should be 3 larvae only, cause it is kind of instant is it not?
[iHs]SSP | I-NO-KI BOM-BA-YE | のヮの http://tinyurl.com/MLIStheCV , MLIS.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
September 11 2008 04:44 GMT
#5
On September 11 2008 13:38 SayaSP wrote:
I think it should be 3 larvae only, cause it is kind of instant is it not?


It is what ever works best for Starcraft 2. Im not in the buisness of stating this is definatly the value or method that will make this mechanic work. That can only be done by playtesting the current starcraft 2 build. Im aiming for a ballpark and hoping Dustin will do the rest. However I am going to mod the mechanics that show sufficent promise. On that note who here is really good with SCUM. PM me.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
GeneralStan
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States4789 Posts
September 11 2008 17:12 GMT
#6
I think you should move the Protoss mechanic to the Nexus. You then tie the amount of available extra to the players economic development, allow it to grow naturally, and don't have to artifically limit it. It also seems to make more sense to me lorewise.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
soundOeugene
Profile Joined March 2008
10 Posts
September 11 2008 21:50 GMT
#7
Based on your description, it seems the zerg mechanic would only be useful when larger amounts of resources have accumulated and a large battle has been lost which would warrant the consumption of one or more overlords. I think this is flawed for a few reasons.

If the game has entered the "large" army phase (read: late game) then the zerg player already has plenty of hatcheries to handle production. These hatcheries are constantly pumping units regardless of battles won or lost. Mineral counts will necessarily accumulate in less-skilled players, but for gas-hungry zerg pros the resources are being used up constantly. If the battle is lost the idea of sacrificing one or more overlords would ultimately be rather useless when compared with the constant production of units that is perpetually occuring.

Additionally I am not certain that zerg players will keep overlords near hatcheries, or whether zerg players will instead upgrade overlords and spread them about the map for scouting. In the case of mass overseer spreading, the time required to fly overseers back to base and the lost resources from the upgrade undermines the effectiveness of increased larva production. Based on SC (obviously not accurate but it's all I have to go on) zerg playstyles, overlords will most likely be away from the hatchery fufilling more important roles than a "wait until I think I'm going to lose so I need larva quick" type of role.

Thirdly, this mechanic does not adequately solve the problem of creating a "fun" war machine because the usage is so situational. It would not come into play until late game (as I said) and even then it hinges on battle situations.

I do commend you for putting effort into these ideas and I just wished to critique your concept in more depth (of course it is all hypothetical at this point). Keep the ideas coming
Ki_Do
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Korea (South)981 Posts
September 12 2008 00:23 GMT
#8
sc2 needs base building and economy management
I've got a point, and i'm ready to kill or die for it.
sqwert
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States781 Posts
September 12 2008 02:40 GMT
#9
fuck starcraft
if everythings coming your way, youre in the wrong lane. sAviOr 4evar!
Retsukage
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1002 Posts
September 12 2008 06:17 GMT
#10
On September 12 2008 11:40 sqwert wrote:
fuck starcraft

?
To change is to improve, to change often is to be perfect - Winston Chruchill
shinigami
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Canada423 Posts
September 12 2008 06:19 GMT
#11
As interesting as this is, I still believe Blizzard will make the right decisions and that SC2 will fulfill everyone's expectations as a true successor.
I was thinking about joining a debate club, but I was talked out of it.
Aphelion
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States2720 Posts
September 12 2008 07:42 GMT
#12
I find it hard to believe this isn't some elaborate troll attempt. And the SC2 forum has had quite a lot of these battle net forumer elements lately, largely to its detriment.

But I'll give the benefit of the doubt and give the most constructive and sincere advice I can -
play more, talk less.
But Garimto was always more than just a Protoss...
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42839 Posts
September 12 2008 08:45 GMT
#13
I quite liked these ideas, especially the zerg one.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
_PulSe_
Profile Joined August 2006
United States541 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-12 14:23:01
September 12 2008 14:22 GMT
#14
i like the zerg one too. Could u imagine what you could do with a 12 pool-->make extra overlord instead of making the next 12 hatch ---> make initial 6 lings, sacrifice an ovie, and make 6 more. We would have a very good counter in zvz. but maybe it would be imba

However in all likeliness it may be that this ability would have to be researched which would kinda make it less useful to make macro at the pro level because at the pro level they are already using their resources and using the larva non stop.
Its not that Im lazy. Its that I just dont care.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25981 Posts
September 12 2008 14:33 GMT
#15
I originally came into this thread to call you pretentious for calling your ideas a thesis...

But these ideas are really good! I like all of them!
Moderator
EtherealDeath
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States8366 Posts
September 12 2008 18:14 GMT
#16
Yes, as mentioned above the zerg one is particularly interesting..

Another thought I had when reading your protoss idea was that since the protoss enjoying tapping the "energy matrix" (purposely suggestive language cough cough), what about giving the option of tapping into a pylon in order to speed the arrival of a building, but that each tap reduces the psi provided by said pylon by some amount that is sufficiently high to prevent pylon tap abuse?

Just seems that the Protoss macro change should invovlve psi tradeoffs for other gains, since psi is the closest we have to measuring the protoss energy matrix.
Equinox_kr
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States7395 Posts
September 12 2008 20:07 GMT
#17
I see merits for all of them, interesting!
^-^
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
September 12 2008 21:26 GMT
#18
Just to let you guys know.... I have something big coming up.
Stay tuned
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
HeavOnEarth
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States7087 Posts
September 12 2008 23:23 GMT
#19
TO THE FOLLOWING EPISODES OF
"come korea next time... FXO house... 10 korean, 10 korean"
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
September 13 2008 02:33 GMT
#20
...THESIS TO INCREASE MACRO
Dun dun dun.....
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
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