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Thesis to Increase Macro Part 5: Gas

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-27 04:12:14
November 22 2008 21:27 GMT
#1
Thesis to Increase Macro
Part 5: Gas


Thesis to Increase Macro Part 1: Mining
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78498
Thesis to Increase Macro Part 2: Supply
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78501
Thesis to Increase Macro Part 3: Auxiliary Buildings
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78657
Thesis to Increase Macro Part 4: Production Buildings
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=79926
Thesis to Increase Macro Part 5: Gas
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=82730
Contact at ArcherofAiur@gmail.com


Here are today’s sections for anyone who feels like tackling them one at a time.
What is Resource Pacing?
Pacing in Starcraft
Harvest Elements Gas Mechanic
“Bad” Ideas and the Value of Making Mistakes
A Vignette




What is Resource Pacing?

Lets say you wanted to create a game where players would control multiple units and lead them into combat against each other. One of the earliest decisions you must make is where these combat units should come from.

One option would mimic the pacing in board games such as chess. With this system the player starts with a set number of units and does not gain any more as the game progresses. The early game has both players via for positional advantage. A short mid-game is characterized by rapid combat. By the late game we see a reduction in both units and action.

A second option would allow for a continuous influx of units onto the battlefield. This is the system used by DOTA. This method leads to a very ebb and flow experience. Pacing is relatively even throughout most of the game with favor tilting to one side in the end game.

A third option would be to let player action determine the pace of the game. To do this you would make the players rate of unit production dependant upon three factors.
1) Economic Revenue
2) Building Infrastructure
3) Player Production Commands

This is the system employed by most modern RTS games. With it the primary purpose of resource gathering is as a pacing device.


Pacing in Starcraft

Starcraft is a game structured on exponential growth. The player starts with few options like make workers, scout, build supply. As the game progresses the player acquires increased responsibilities including building construction, unit production, supply management, and base expansion. All of these tasks are accomplished through manual or automated processes. The trend in the Starcraft 1 was manual initiation at the early game and automated benefits in the late game. As an example the manual initiation would be you select an SCV and order it to mine. The automated benefit is that the SCV will continue to bring you revenue throughout the game. Starcraft 2 seeks to take the reverse by automating essential processes in the early game and giving manual benefits in the late game. In doing so Starcraft 2 upholds Blizzards mantra “Easy to learn, Difficult to Master”.

Consider the current state of production building mechanics in Starcraft 2. In the early game the protoss gamer can take full advantage of MBS and building queues. This allows the causal gamer to discover and enjoy the game. In the late game the skilled protoss player can manually direct unit production through the Warp-In mechanic. In doing so he sacrifices the convenience of remote recruitment and queues for faster production time and the ability to place new units anywhere in pylon power. He is trading in automation for manual benefits. The Zerg Mutant Larva ability works in an identical fashion.

In light of this design philosophy why not structure early game resource gathering around automated initiation and late game resource gathering around manual benefits? This is the approach that Element Harvesting will take.




Harvest Elements Gas Mechanic

How It Works

Vespene geysers would work in the same way as Starcraft 1 except for three things.
1) Automine: workers could be rallied directly into the geyser.
2) Expired geysers would no longer produce 2 gas per worker trip.
3) Expired geysers would gain the Drill ability.

When a geyser has been drained of its 2000 gas it gains a Drill button on its UI panel. When a player clicks the Drill button a Harvest button would appear on the UI panel along with a progress bar divided into ten sections. This bar would begin filling at the rate of one section per second. Each section will eventually count for 10 minerals and 10 gas if successfully harvested. As always all numbers are subject to balance.
When the player clicks the Harvest button the geyser is restocked with minerals and gas proportionate to the number of filled section. So it behooves you to let the progress bar proceed as far as possible (Max =10 bars =10 sec). The catch is that if the player waits past 10 seconds the boreshaft collapses and the geyser receives no refill. Players can Harvest Elements as many times as they want but there is a cooldown following successful and unsuccessful harvesting.
As an example, Player hits harvest when 7 sections are filled. Player gets 70 min and 70 gas. Player hits Drill button again and waits 11 seconds. Player gets no min/gas and must hit Drill button again.

Flavor

“Today, the surface of Moria is little more then a desolate shell. Gaping craters and the discarded skeletons of massive excavation machines liter what was once a bountiful world. Despite the depleted exterior, Moria still holds some treasure for the most tenacious of ravagers. Deep underground Kel-Morain workers continue to extract valuable mineral and gas deposits. By converting existing refiners into giant drilling complexes they can bore massive tunnels into the planet’s mantle. As these boreshafts approach several hundred kilometers their instability escalates. However, this risk of collapse does little to deter the Kel-Morain’s thirst for wealth. Recently, this technology has been adapted by Dominion commanders. Element Harvesting continues to fuel the engine of war in an increasingly barren sector.”

Visual
Once a geyser is depleted of its 5000 gas it would turn red. When the boreshaft was close to collapsing the geysers red panels would begin flashing. Following a successful harvest SCVs would be allowed to enter the geyser one at a time. They would emerge carrying red metal crates.

OK, so that is the flavor and visuals for the Terrans. I will let you guys try your hand at developing Protoss and Zerg themes. Who’s got some great ideas?


Something for Everyone
This mechanic offers benefits to both the casual and professional gamer.

The casual gamer sees Element Harvesting as an infinite revenue source. He knows that he still needs to expand to new resource nodes but he has some peace of mind from knowing that even if all the resource nodes were exhausted he would still be able to fuel his war machine. The casual gamer no longer has to worry about accidentally starving himself by forgetting to expand or pigeon holing himself by spending all his money with none left over for more workers or foundational buildings.

For the professional gamer Element Harvesting is a way to gain an advantage over his opponent by focusing on macro. The superior multitasker can , by paying attention to the base and economic operations in the late game, gain a resource advantage. The professional gamer will meet the challenge of timing his return to base to coincide with maximum min/gas yield before the vein collapses.

And finally I would like to draw attention to Nisco from teamliquid.net (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=82476). His gas proposal heavily influenced the Element Harvesting Mechanic.





“Bad” Ideas and the Value of Making Mistakes


“I have not failed. I’ve found 10,000 ways that don’t work.”
-Thomas Edison


The truth is that good ideas almost always start out as bad ideas. Project Purification is a Safe Haven for “Bad” Ideas. We do not care how bad your idea is. We care about how much thought you have put into it. If you are willing to develop your idea then we are willing to offer constructive criticism. The following are suggestions for turning your bad ideas into great ones.

Suggestion #1
You should always be the first person to admit your idea could use improvement.

No one knows your idea better then you do. Therefore, no one is in a better position to critique it then you. Do not grow so attached to your ideas that you cannot break or discard them. This kind of pride stifles self-improvement.

Suggestion #2
Listen to the advice of others.

It is important to consider what others are saying with a fair and open mind. They can often see things about your proposal that you are blind to. You must also remember that a poster who does not like your idea is more likely to respond to your post then a poster who does like your idea. Don’t let overly harsh criticism deter you from your purpose.


Suggestion #3
Model your Mechanics.

It is very important to test your ideas. Modeling them in SCUM or the WC3 world editor helps you to refine just how your mechanics work. It can also alert you to any problems you may have overlooked. If after modeling you find that your mechanic is still as good as you originally thought then feel free to share it with the community.

Suggestion #4
Figure out which parts of your mechanic work, which don’t and why?

There are a lot of ideas that have really cool aspects but still cause problems. Sometimes you have to let the whole idea go. Other times you can salvage the cool features. Dissect each part of your mechanic to figure out what each part does and if it is worth it. You will find that some parts exist because they excite you. You will also find parts that you had to throw in there to make the mechanic come together. As practice see if you can determine what parts of the Element Harvesting Mechanic are for excitement and what parts are necessity.


Suggestion #5
It is OK to build on the work of others, but don’t forget to reference.

First off, if you want to improve your own proposals you need to read the proposals of others. Don’t be afraid to let their thoughts influence yours. Ask yourself “Does anything here connect with, fill in a gap or fix a problem I am having with my ideas. For partial referencing a poster’s name is significant. When borrowing heavily you should include the poster, forum, and a link to the original source. When you can not find the original source you should make note of it in your proposal and invite the author to come forward and take credit. Remember, you are not diminishing your proposal when you reference someone else. Let your improvements stand on their own merit.







A Vignette


I would just like to show how these suggestions helped me to develop the Overlord Recycling mechanic. The idea first came to me as I lay on the verge of sleep one night. I was contemplating how a Zerg base would look and function in real life. Suddenly, the image of a hatchery consuming an overlord materialized in my head. I immediately got up and started jotting down ideas on paper. I was way too excited to sleep. This idea seemed perfect. Fun, sensory stimulating, AND intellectually engaging. This was the answer to Starcraft 2's macro problem.

Suggestion #1
You should always be the first person to admit your idea could use improvement.
Then the voice of rational thought kicked in. “Wait a minute man. That is what you said about the last mechanic you came up with. And the one before that one and the one before that.” There are going to be problems with this mechanic just like there were with all the other mechanics. What I am going to do is formulate it, identify the problems and see what I can learn from them. Even if this mechanic isn’t the answer Starcraft 2 needs at least it can be one step in the right direction.

Suggestion #2
Listen to the advice of others.
While many in the community liked the idea of hatcheries eating overlords, a few posters expressed reservations. They argued that constructing more hatcheries would be more effective then sacrificing overlords for larva.

Suggestion #3
Model your Mechanics.
To determine whether they were right I modeled the mechanic. I created a sacrificing area that would trigger drone production when overlords were moved to it. I accounted for build time, supply and minerals in the trigger. On test runs I recorded the time it took to create 50 drones using the over lord sacrificing trigger. I ran a control to test the time it took to create 50 drones by making more hatcheries. I ran tests that combined overlord sacrificing and hatchery creation. Later I tested the effects of reductions in build time and cost for drone production.

Suggestion #4
Figure out which parts of your mechanic work, which don’t and why?
To figure out where to go next I dissected the mechanic into three parts.
1) Player Controlled Initiation: Player must manually select overlords and position them above hatchery. Following this player must order hatchery to recycle overlord. Both steps require the player’s attention and camera to return to base.
2) Devour Overlord: This was the sensory stimulation part. The Wow factor comes from the animation, accompanying sound effects and gruesome significance.
3) Extra Larva Benefit: This is the advantage for the player controlled initiation. From testing I had determined that the increase of larva production was offset by the mineral, supply and build time necessary to create overlords. Constructing additional hatcheries was a better alternative for exponential growth.

Suggestion #5
It is OK to build on the work of others, but don’t forget to reference.
Having identified the problem I started looking for other benefits to provide. One source I examined was Blizzard. After examining Warp-In and the Reactor Mechanic I determined that instant unit production was the best benefit. This served as the basis for the overlord 2.0 mechanic.




Pax
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
November 22 2008 22:52 GMT
#2
What I like about it is that it would let players construct their basic economy very easily and independent from mechanic requirements and later on lets you "upgrade" your economy in a more complex fashion.

What I don´t like is the actuall "upgrade. Even if you scale up on the revenue it´s essentially a minigame supposed to "bind" players. A perfect player with it would have to spend 10 seconds EACH geyser to maximise revenue.


1) Economic Revenue
2) Building Infrastructure
3) Player Production Commands

Instead of looking at 3 I´d prefer solutions from sectors 1 or 2 (I´m not a fan of mixing economy or "macro" with mechanical distractions) or even better add 4: Trade

In SC the economic infrastructure consists of 2 Building Types and 1 unit type (which is produced from one of the 2 aforementioned buildings).

Why not experiment with a "Mine" building that would let you extract resources anywhere on the map but with less revenue and more required Investments? The best places would still be the open deposits but they wouldn´t be exclusive.
nataziel
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Australia1455 Posts
November 23 2008 02:45 GMT
#3
Awesome post, I like it, but would it really be worth the clicks invested late game when you're more than likely expanding out the wazzoo anyway? Seems like too much distraction for not enough pay-off, but, that comes down to balance I suppose. You need to give the players an incentive to do it this way instead of just maynarding all their peons to their expansions. Of course, a good enough player could set it to bore, go micro some units or look somewhere else and come back in time and it really adds an element of multi-tasking, but if it's not effective enough no one will use it.

I also like the casual side of the argument, makes a lot of sense.
u gotta sk8
GhostKorean
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States2330 Posts
November 26 2008 17:30 GMT
#4
With this it seems having a depleted geyser is more beneficial.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
November 27 2008 04:11 GMT
#5
Added "A Vignette"

Happy TDay for those in the states!
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
nataziel
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Australia1455 Posts
November 27 2008 05:51 GMT
#6
Wow, you went to a hell of a lot of trouble to model this stuff man, you have way too much time on your hands lol.

While overlords producing drones may not be good, what about actual larva? Say your army just got wiped out by a protoss dude who is now trucking it to your base, you've got a few overlords sitting around that you don't really need the supply from, consume the overlords and make a few extra zerglings from the larva produced, allowing you to fight off the protoss and live to fight another day.
u gotta sk8
NiGoL
Profile Joined September 2008
1868 Posts
November 27 2008 09:41 GMT
#7
not my way in doing it tho, but for newbies it might be a good way.
http://www.twitter.com/NiGoLBW playing league on a competitive level
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
November 27 2008 16:15 GMT
#8
On November 27 2008 14:51 nataziel wrote:


While overlords producing drones may not be good, what about actual larva? Say your army just got wiped out by a protoss dude who is now trucking it to your base, you've got a few overlords sitting around that you don't really need the supply from, consume the overlords and make a few extra zerglings from the larva produced, allowing you to fight off the protoss and live to fight another day.


That is actually what the mechanic does. When modeling I found it easier to spawn drones instead of larva. I compensated with mineral, supply and build time factors.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
WoodenSpider
Profile Joined April 2008
United States85 Posts
November 27 2008 17:40 GMT
#9
I have to admit I like the depleted geyser concept, but I'm not to in to the whole minigame aspect. I can't think how to fix it, though. frankly, this is probably my favorite solution to increase macro as it gives benefits to both casual and skilled gamers. I like it! keep brainstorming!

(good luck getting Blizzard to implement these, though. they seem to be done taking advice on mechanics, and are focusing on balancing now)
GeorgeForeman
Profile Joined April 2005
United States1746 Posts
December 01 2008 16:57 GMT
#10
Well, I sure like this a lot more than any of the mechanics Blizzard has proposed. It seems very involved, but I think it could work. Or at the least, the principle involved (a timing pattern where you have to start something and then remember to collect the benefit at a specific time or you lose it) could be applied in some other way to get players to think about other stuff.

And think of the focus that would be required to use this effectively in the middle of a fight! Remembering to click back to your base to stop your shaft and then send your SCVs to mine again while nydus worms are popping up everywhere? That be some pretty pro shit.
like a school bus through a bunch of kids
MyTHicaL
Profile Joined November 2005
France1070 Posts
December 01 2008 17:06 GMT
#11
thats not what exponential growth means but other than that its moderately informative ;o.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-01 22:22:51
December 01 2008 22:21 GMT
#12
On December 02 2008 02:06 MyTHicaL wrote:
thats not what exponential growth means but other than that its moderately informative ;o.

You got me :-P
Base expansion and resource acuisition in starcraft is not technically exponential. This was a rough appoximation. Actually, devising a good mathmatical model for Starcraft growth would be useful. We can already state some of the varibles (SCVs, mineral patches, expansions controlled). Who is good with math?

http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
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