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On June 22 2008 18:10 VIB wrote:
Dromar and Klockan3, they can't fix it by just making lair faster/cheaper. Because that would be overpowered the other way around. All hard counters in the game are timed so one race can build the counter before the opponent can build the unit that requires a hard counter. Ex.: building detection comes before building cloacking, anti-air before air, drop vs drop for all races etc. If they make lair faster zerg could make a cloaked infestor attack before observers or drop your cliff before you can drop back to defend. etc etc
And you can't just increase the time to build of those to make up for faster lair, because then you wouldn't be able to change tech for those to counter enemy. Ex.: you're already at lair teching to drop to counter your opponent teching to colossus. Then he techs to DTs, you scout it, but you can't get overlord detect upgrade in time because it takes 10 years to upgrade, to make up for the fast lair.
Observers come at the same time as dark templars, your logic is flawed.
And the overlord morph to overseer do not require an upgrade last time I checked...
If lair cost 150 min and 0 gas, 1 min to upgrade there would be no issues at all.
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The amount of whiny theorycrafting and unjust indignation in this thread is mindboggling.
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On June 22 2008 18:10 VIB wrote:
Dromar and Klockan3, they can't fix it by just making lair faster/cheaper. Because that would be overpowered the other way around. All hard counters in the game are timed so one race can build the counter before the opponent can build the unit that requires a hard counter. Ex.: building detection comes before building cloacking, anti-air before air, drop vs drop for all races etc. If they make lair faster zerg could make a cloaked infestor attack before observers or drop your cliff before you can drop back to defend. etc etc
And you can't just increase the time to build of those to make up for faster lair, because then you wouldn't be able to change tech for those to counter enemy. Ex.: you're already at lair teching to drop to counter your opponent teching to colossus. Then he techs to DTs, you scout it, but you can't get overlord detect upgrade in time because it takes 10 years to upgrade, to make up for the fast lair.
Makes sense, but fast lair doesn't necessarily mean Zerg is gonna have an unanswerable BO. Maybe Zerg detection comes later, but Protoss and Terran doesn't have early cloaking power. Meanwhile, Zerg cloaking (ie burrow) could come early, but P and T have cannons and sensor towers early game. Normally though, burrow wouldn't really count as cloak tech, since you can't attack while burrowed, except for lurks which are now tier 3. Except that the infestor can apparently move while burrowed. Still, they just need sensor towers/photon cannons/detectorlords available before a burrowed moving infestor.
I mean, I know what you're saying, but fast lair doesn't exactly mean they can't time the counters to come before the rush.
edit: I think the SC2 Lair : BW cyber core comparison is actually pretty good here. When protoss goes 1gate tech, he gets more options quickly, including air and cloak. But if the opponent scouts what you're doing, he'll be able to handle it.
edit2: of course this all assumes that lair costs 150/0 or 200/0 or something. If Lair costs gas (which it probably does currently), then Zerg pretty much does have to put himself into a tight position to be able to deal with all the possible cheeses between cloak/air/rushes.
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I doubt it is a current zerg tech tree, sunken and spore colonies at lair level? huh? And there is no such things as shriekers and swarm clutches currently...
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If this is true Zerg has 5(!) different tech options with the lair morphing in:
- roaches
- banelings
- infestors
- hydras
- mutas/corruptors
I think the 2 options muta/hydra were already enough trouble sometimes 
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On June 22 2008 19:40 Tritanis wrote:
I doubt it is a current zerg tech tree, sunken and spore colonies at lair level? huh? And there is no such things as shriekers and swarm clutches currently...
You... need to know more about the queen
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Does anyone have the current Protoss and Terran tech trees to compare this against?
Because if not then it's kinda stupid to make any guesses about balance.
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On June 22 2008 19:13 Doctorasul wrote:
The amount of whiny theorycrafting and unjust indignation in this thread is mindboggling.
Here here!
I feel the need to remind people, that they know nothing about SC2. You don't know the cost of ANY OF THE UNITS OR BUILDINGS. You don't know ANY OF THE TIMING OF THE UNITS AND BUILDINGS. You don't know ANYTHING. SC2 != SC:BW. Quit trying to apply BW logic to SC2.
They could've made Zerglings 25 minerals a pop and have larvae spawn 3 times faster. Oh noez! kekeke ling rush!
Unless the flowchart came DIRECTLY from Blizzard, I wouldn't rely on it.
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"In addition, the SC:L team is excited to present our rendition of the Zerg technology tree. Since the game is still in flux we cannot guarantee 100% accuracy but nevertheless we endeavored to make it as accurate as currently possible."
Do with it what you will...
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quick queen for infested terrans anyone?:D
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NO SCOURGE? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Scourge were the things that made me seem more gosu than I really am with cloning, and muta vs scourge. How will I falsely inflate my skill now?
Only lings until lair seems rediculous.
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The one real comment I've got is that having lurkers and Ultras att the same tier is stupid. As they both count large amounts of smaller units, they have to be very different from the SC1 units with same names. I think I'd always use ultras since they are so easy to micro and lurkers so hard. I'd only use lurkers for static defense if that's what's up.
Also, I like the idea of morphing your hydra den to deep warrens since your opponent can actually scout that you're going lurkers. I hate the fact that banelings require a separate building altogether though.
I see no problem with banelings tier 1/lurks tier2/ ultras tier 3 to counter mnm and mass zealots/zergling, but currently, they seem to want lair tech to be something you HAVE to get real quickly. We'll see how it will go.
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i don't approve of this tech tree. =/ neither do i approve the dude whose running the show(hes made horrible rts :/)
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What is a creep tumor and a shrieker?
So in tier 1, Zerg only get the ling and the queen do defend (along with the thingies the queen makes)? That queen better be able to defeat 12 marines by herself if we Zerg want to make a stand.
I hope they're still not done with the appearance of the Lurker, it looks kind of gay, it needs huge spines and a face. It also needs to be bigger, it shrinks after morphing, is this to add to its mobility?
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Guys come on what are you talking about? They DID say that drones CAN make colonies. It's queen that cannot until lair tech but drones STILL CAN. There you have both detection AND anti-air, static though.
And the only zerglings-until-lair-thing. I heard bliz considered it a weakness of sc1 that many games ended withing 5-7 minutes. So you can't be really surprised that hatchery choices are so limited, be sure protoss and terreans have the same problem.
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On June 22 2008 22:40 Barbarne wrote:
The one real comment I've got is that having lurkers and Ultras att the same tier is stupid. As they both count large amounts of smaller units, they have to be very different from the SC1 units with same names. I think I'd always use ultras since they are so easy to micro and lurkers so hard. I'd only use lurkers for static defense if that's what's up.
Also, I like the idea of morphing your hydra den to deep warrens since your opponent can actually scout that you're going lurkers. I hate the fact that banelings require a separate building altogether though.
I see no problem with banelings tier 1/lurks tier2/ ultras tier 3 to counter mnm and mass zealots/zergling, but currently, they seem to want lair tech to be something you HAVE to get real quickly. We'll see how it will go.
Mnm doesnt exist anymore, so that whole paragraph is flawed. As for infestor at tier 2, Im pretty sure you won't be able to get plague and infestation till hive.
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On June 22 2008 16:30 Ozarugold wrote:
If you squint real hard, the Roach kinda looks better than the Lurker as a Lurker.
Also, I get the feeling that Blizzard is trying to make games interesting by making them players climb the tech tree before engaging in battle. Climbing tech tree means longer battles (usually) thus making them more interesting. I don't know, my two cents.
I also think that the Baneling is adorable. Like a cubby booger with knives.
I thought they were trying to make rushes a more viable strategy in the game?... They said most games will only last 20 minutes...
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EPT
