EPTThe current version of the Zerg Tech Tree (20/6/2008)
![[image loading]](http://sclegacy.com/images/uploaded/starcraftiinews/techtreezer2.png)
Thanks to Sclegacy.com
edit: Roach at lair level was indeed a mistake. SCL has fixed this up now.
edit2: Shrieker requires an evolution chamber
New Zerg Tech Tree
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Highways
Australia6106 Posts
The current version of the Zerg Tech Tree (20/6/2008) Thanks to Sclegacy.com edit: Roach at lair level was indeed a mistake. SCL has fixed this up now. edit2: Shrieker requires an evolution chamber | ||
mikeymoo
Canada7170 Posts
For someone who's not following sc2 much this is kinda nifty. Thx sclegacy! | ||
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Chuiu
3470 Posts
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hrmM
United States210 Posts
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
On June 22 2008 14:42 hrmM wrote: only lings till u get lair :[ Ya... do any of the people who've played SC2 know how this affects the game? Are people forced to get faster Lairs now? Are there any strategies that involve no lair? For example in Broodwar, you can do 3/4/5 hydra, but now that hydra / roach / everything else is Lair tech... -_- You've got the queen and lings, that's pretty much it. Banelings are lair tech too! | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
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crazie-penguin
United States1253 Posts
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Highways
Australia6106 Posts
On June 22 2008 14:49 anotak wrote: is this real? last I checked roach den was definitely hatchery tech, new things are mentioned that i've never heard of (shrieker wtf?), nydus is lair tech not hive??, lurker requires its own building? I'm pretty sure SCL got this from their exclusive Q&A with Karune | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
On June 22 2008 14:53 Highways wrote: I'm pretty sure SCL got this from their exclusive Q&A with Karune hmm... this seems pretty disturbing that zerg only have lings before lair tech | ||
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B1nary
Canada1267 Posts
- no ranged unit until lair - no mobile anti-air until lair - dependent on queen for early game defence and detection - detection is expensive as hell - all units that can hit air cost 100 gas (corruptor, mutalisk, hydralisk) Is it just me, or does it feel like Zerg is severely crippled early and possibly mid-game? | ||
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Chuiu
3470 Posts
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Folca
2235 Posts
On June 22 2008 15:10 Chuiu wrote: This just goes in with Blizzards theme of making the game slower paced and dumbed down. But having Starcraft BW's fast-paced was basically the game, it was how everyone was much into it, because of it's quick-play | ||
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Chuiu
3470 Posts
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wurm
Philippines2296 Posts
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
cool beans. @wurm yeah lurkers have been hive tech since i played it @people talking about zerg being defensive; entirely right. zerg not having hatchery-level mobile anti air was rather inconvenient, especially vs something like a banshee rush. now not only do they keep the hydra den at lair, they move roach den up too. I am going to return to my cave and wait until the beta. @Blizzard making a queen and several swarm clutches to defend vs air is really quite constricting; in sc1 the option to go hydralisks to fight corsairs and/or wraiths was nearly necessary due to the tech/economy tradeoff of Zerg. With only swarm clutches to defend, P and T will be able to dictate Zerg early game to a highly inconvenient degree. Not only does it force a defensive style by precluding most pre-lair attacks, but it also cripples zerg early anti-air thereby impacting the Zerg economy/tech choices as well. Good thing zerg gets +1/+1 and zergling speed for only 100/100 lololol | ||
Sigrun
United States1655 Posts
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Motiva
United States1774 Posts
On June 22 2008 16:07 Last Romantic wrote: I am going to return to my cave and wait until the beta. Yep. Fuck no tier 1 and more tier 2 than is ever going to be needed. | ||
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wurm
Philippines2296 Posts
yeah lurkers have been hive tech since i played it Oh wow, I don't like the way their going with my favorite race. T_T | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
Hydra at lair tech means power boost from sc yay! At hatchery tech all you can make is zlings? Queen can't even become static D until lair tech and the creep tumor, I don't know its purpose, looks like an ugly donut. Buildings look cool especially the pool, and hive looks really similar to sc's lair. (Lair is my favorite) Lurker looks more cute than intimidating. Zerglings look like mini scythers(from pokemon) and drones look like scourge. Muta looks cool and hydra design looks a little too complex | ||
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Ozarugold
2716 Posts
Also, I get the feeling that Blizzard is trying to make games interesting by making them players climb the tech tree before engaging in battle. Climbing tech tree means longer battles (usually) thus making them more interesting. I don't know, my two cents. I also think that the Baneling is adorable. Like a cubby booger with knives. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
It sounds so freaking crippling. No way that is gonna last long if it's true. It's just absurd. | ||
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
On June 22 2008 16:31 VIB wrote: Did I get this right or zerg has zero mobile anti-air AND zero mobile anti-cloak before lair? So there are 2 different tech branches that you have zero defense against and cannot fight against unless you play your opponent's game? It sounds so freaking crippling. No way that is gonna last long if it's true. It's just absurd. Oh right, overlords. I forgot about that. So, how about a big fat to hell with zerg and let's all play the manly Protoss race. | ||
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Aerox
Malaysia1213 Posts
anyway, pointing this out even if it doesn't make me feel any better: On tier one, we have zerglings AND a queen*COUGH*HERO*COUGH*. One more thing I'm not sure if it counts as missing: BURROW. Is it available by default? | ||
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Krohm
Canada1857 Posts
On June 22 2008 16:33 Last Romantic wrote: Oh right, overlords. I forgot about that. So, how about a big fat to hell with zerg and let's all play the manly Protoss race. Here here! By the looks of it, I'm going to be switching to toss for the first few patches until a bit of balancing comes out. But who knows though, maybe it'll work out in the beginning. | ||
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HypnoticPoo
Singapore291 Posts
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Krzycho
Poland442 Posts
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useLess
United States4781 Posts
also, the infestor reminds me of: ![[image loading]](http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t231/Kasper123_2007/lolwut.jpg) | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On June 22 2008 16:41 Krohm wrote: Nah I doubt that will get too far. I'm 100% sure this tech tree will change before beta ends at least. It is just too ridiculously absurd to not become clearly wrong when progamers start playing it more seriously on beta.Here here! By the looks of it, I'm going to be switching to toss for the first few patches until a bit of balancing comes out. But who knows though, maybe it'll work out in the beginning. I mean, how do they even consider no anti-air and anti-cloak on t1 for testing? | ||
Aesop
Hungary11305 Posts
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
maybe. | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
I think one way they can keep the tech tree the way it is AND not cripple Zerg early game is to make the lair upgrade cost, say 150 or 200 mins and no gas. And take like 30-45 seconds. Then, you start lair and get gas at the same time, and when lair finishes, you've got gas to make a detectorlord and/or hydras to defend. If on the other hand, you scout your opponent NOT cheesing, you can use your first 100 gas to get superlings. anyway, couple things that seemed wierd when I looked at the tech tree: 1. Nothing but lings/queen until lair. 2. Dark Swarm at lair tech (I think infestor still has DS right?) 3. Lurkers at hive tech :r 4. Don't like separate buildings for banelings rather than an upgrade from spawning pool. 5. Don't like building upgrade Hydra Den -> Deep Warren rather than upgrade a la Lurker tech in BW. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
Also the swarm cluch is still a defensive structure. | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
Lair tech had better be like 50-50 if that's all zerg gets, though...I swear. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
And you can't just increase the time to build of those to make up for faster lair, because then you wouldn't be able to change tech for those to counter enemy. Ex.: you're already at lair teching to drop to counter your opponent teching to colossus. Then he techs to DTs, you scout it, but you can't get overlord detect upgrade in time because it takes 10 years to upgrade, to make up for the fast lair. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
Zerg CAn't make Spores colonies, OR Sunkens OR roaches until Lair but they can make evolution chambers. Basicly what Blizzard means is that Zerg will use buildings placement to hold the game until lair and.... The tech tree that SClegacy has is obvious flawed. The requirement for Roach is a roachden, requirement for a roachden is spawning pool. Not Lair SCLegazy even forgott to put in buildings in the tech tree. One of the posters told them that they forgott to put in the Ultralisk den so they updated it. | ||
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ImgGartok
United States216 Posts
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On June 22 2008 18:11 Oc wrote: Hopefully Hydras will return to tier 1 and roach can stay as tier 2, I don't know why there was a need to move hydras to lair tech in the first place. It's the other way around, roaches are tier 1 with a regeneration upgrade at tier 3 to make them useful even at tier 3. Hydras were planned to be a tier 2. Tier1 units are roaches and zerlings, Tier2 are mutalisks hydras corruptors and infestors Tier 3 are Ultralisks and Guardians. Banelings are unknown. think they are tier 2. Lurkers unknown. Could be tier 3 | ||
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omninmo
2349 Posts
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On June 22 2008 18:10 VIB wrote: Dromar and Klockan3, they can't fix it by just making lair faster/cheaper. Because that would be overpowered the other way around. All hard counters in the game are timed so one race can build the counter before the opponent can build the unit that requires a hard counter. Ex.: building detection comes before building cloacking, anti-air before air, drop vs drop for all races etc. If they make lair faster zerg could make a cloaked infestor attack before observers or drop your cliff before you can drop back to defend. etc etc And you can't just increase the time to build of those to make up for faster lair, because then you wouldn't be able to change tech for those to counter enemy. Ex.: you're already at lair teching to drop to counter your opponent teching to colossus. Then he techs to DTs, you scout it, but you can't get overlord detect upgrade in time because it takes 10 years to upgrade, to make up for the fast lair. Observers come at the same time as dark templars, your logic is flawed. And the overlord morph to overseer do not require an upgrade last time I checked... If lair cost 150 min and 0 gas, 1 min to upgrade there would be no issues at all. | ||
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Doctorasul
Romania1145 Posts
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On June 22 2008 18:10 VIB wrote: Dromar and Klockan3, they can't fix it by just making lair faster/cheaper. Because that would be overpowered the other way around. All hard counters in the game are timed so one race can build the counter before the opponent can build the unit that requires a hard counter. Ex.: building detection comes before building cloacking, anti-air before air, drop vs drop for all races etc. If they make lair faster zerg could make a cloaked infestor attack before observers or drop your cliff before you can drop back to defend. etc etc And you can't just increase the time to build of those to make up for faster lair, because then you wouldn't be able to change tech for those to counter enemy. Ex.: you're already at lair teching to drop to counter your opponent teching to colossus. Then he techs to DTs, you scout it, but you can't get overlord detect upgrade in time because it takes 10 years to upgrade, to make up for the fast lair. Makes sense, but fast lair doesn't necessarily mean Zerg is gonna have an unanswerable BO. Maybe Zerg detection comes later, but Protoss and Terran doesn't have early cloaking power. Meanwhile, Zerg cloaking (ie burrow) could come early, but P and T have cannons and sensor towers early game. Normally though, burrow wouldn't really count as cloak tech, since you can't attack while burrowed, except for lurks which are now tier 3. Except that the infestor can apparently move while burrowed. Still, they just need sensor towers/photon cannons/detectorlords available before a burrowed moving infestor. I mean, I know what you're saying, but fast lair doesn't exactly mean they can't time the counters to come before the rush. edit: I think the SC2 Lair : BW cyber core comparison is actually pretty good here. When protoss goes 1gate tech, he gets more options quickly, including air and cloak. But if the opponent scouts what you're doing, he'll be able to handle it. edit2: of course this all assumes that lair costs 150/0 or 200/0 or something. If Lair costs gas (which it probably does currently), then Zerg pretty much does have to put himself into a tight position to be able to deal with all the possible cheeses between cloak/air/rushes. | ||
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omninmo
2349 Posts
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Tritanis
Poland344 Posts
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Konni
Germany3044 Posts
- roaches - banelings - infestors - hydras - mutas/corruptors I think the 2 options muta/hydra were already enough trouble sometimes  | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On June 22 2008 19:40 Tritanis wrote: I doubt it is a current zerg tech tree, sunken and spore colonies at lair level? huh? And there is no such things as shriekers and swarm clutches currently... You... need to know more about the queen | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
Because if not then it's kinda stupid to make any guesses about balance. | ||
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Jazriel
Canada404 Posts
On June 22 2008 19:13 Doctorasul wrote: The amount of whiny theorycrafting and unjust indignation in this thread is mindboggling. Here here! I feel the need to remind people, that they know nothing about SC2. You don't know the cost of ANY OF THE UNITS OR BUILDINGS. You don't know ANY OF THE TIMING OF THE UNITS AND BUILDINGS. You don't know ANYTHING. SC2 != SC:BW. Quit trying to apply BW logic to SC2. They could've made Zerglings 25 minerals a pop and have larvae spawn 3 times faster. Oh noez! kekeke ling rush! Unless the flowchart came DIRECTLY from Blizzard, I wouldn't rely on it. | ||
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awol
Australia79 Posts
Do with it what you will... | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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Archaic
United States4024 Posts
Scourge were the things that made me seem more gosu than I really am with cloning, and muta vs scourge. How will I falsely inflate my skill now? Only lings until lair seems rediculous. | ||
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Barbarne
Sweden458 Posts
Also, I like the idea of morphing your hydra den to deep warrens since your opponent can actually scout that you're going lurkers. I hate the fact that banelings require a separate building altogether though. I see no problem with banelings tier 1/lurks tier2/ ultras tier 3 to counter mnm and mass zealots/zergling, but currently, they seem to want lair tech to be something you HAVE to get real quickly. We'll see how it will go. | ||
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JudgeMathis
Cuba1286 Posts
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thoraxe
United States1449 Posts
So in tier 1, Zerg only get the ling and the queen do defend (along with the thingies the queen makes)? That queen better be able to defeat 12 marines by herself if we Zerg want to make a stand. I hope they're still not done with the appearance of the Lurker, it looks kind of gay, it needs huge spines and a face. It also needs to be bigger, it shrinks after morphing, is this to add to its mobility? | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
And the only zerglings-until-lair-thing. I heard bliz considered it a weakness of sc1 that many games ended withing 5-7 minutes. So you can't be really surprised that hatchery choices are so limited, be sure protoss and terreans have the same problem. | ||
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Ra.Xor.2
United States1784 Posts
On June 22 2008 22:40 Barbarne wrote: The one real comment I've got is that having lurkers and Ultras att the same tier is stupid. As they both count large amounts of smaller units, they have to be very different from the SC1 units with same names. I think I'd always use ultras since they are so easy to micro and lurkers so hard. I'd only use lurkers for static defense if that's what's up. Also, I like the idea of morphing your hydra den to deep warrens since your opponent can actually scout that you're going lurkers. I hate the fact that banelings require a separate building altogether though. I see no problem with banelings tier 1/lurks tier2/ ultras tier 3 to counter mnm and mass zealots/zergling, but currently, they seem to want lair tech to be something you HAVE to get real quickly. We'll see how it will go. Mnm doesnt exist anymore, so that whole paragraph is flawed. As for infestor at tier 2, Im pretty sure you won't be able to get plague and infestation till hive. | ||
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G5
United States2921 Posts
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
On June 22 2008 16:30 Ozarugold wrote: If you squint real hard, the Roach kinda looks better than the Lurker as a Lurker. Also, I get the feeling that Blizzard is trying to make games interesting by making them players climb the tech tree before engaging in battle. Climbing tech tree means longer battles (usually) thus making them more interesting. I don't know, my two cents. I also think that the Baneling is adorable. Like a cubby booger with knives. I thought they were trying to make rushes a more viable strategy in the game?... They said most games will only last 20 minutes... | ||
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
On June 22 2008 23:58 thoraxe wrote: What is a creep tumor and a shrieker? So in tier 1, Zerg only get the ling and the queen do defend (along with the thingies the queen makes)? That queen better be able to defeat 12 marines by herself if we Zerg want to make a stand. I hope they're still not done with the appearance of the Lurker, it looks kind of gay, it needs huge spines and a face. It also needs to be bigger, it shrinks after morphing, is this to add to its mobility? At this point the queen can kill about 8 marines by herself I believe... Maybe even more. This is weird because it seems that the zerg can just get a great economy with a free ultimate unit... and there is no way to kill it. Once they reach lair tech they have around 5 options... Mass expand mutas go for lurkers go for ultralisks banelings hydras | ||
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crazie-penguin
United States1253 Posts
On June 23 2008 00:45 GunsofthePatriots wrote: At this point the queen can kill about 8 marines by herself I believe... Maybe even more. This is weird because it seems that the zerg can just get a great economy with a free ultimate unit... and there is no way to kill it. Once they reach lair tech they have around 5 options... Mass expand mutas go for lurkers go for ultralisks banelings hydras The Queen can't kill 8 marines, the queen dies fast. What the fuck are you talking about? Go rewatch the newer videos of the queen. Stop assuming shit. And ultralisks and lurkers aren't at lair tech. Mass expand? Do you even know the tech tree of the other races and the costs and time of the buildings and units. Dont fucking whine for the fucking sake of whining. The thing that is worrying me is that Blizzard seems to put zerg on the defensive early on and has to rush to lair. The presence of the Queen and only zergligns kind of encourage this. But then again in broodwar ZvT, zerg ALWAYS goes for lair tech to get lurkers and never really utilizing tier 1 except for lings. I wish we can get more details like stats on units and buildings for all three races, in addition to the tech trees. | ||
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Centric
United States1989 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Pretty sure a hatchery-tier queen cant :D | ||
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crazie-penguin
United States1253 Posts
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
On June 23 2008 01:13 crazie-penguin wrote: The Queen can't kill 8 marines, the queen dies fast. What the fuck are you talking about? Go rewatch the newer videos of the queen. Stop assuming shit. And ultralisks and lurkers aren't at lair tech. Mass expand? Do you even know the tech tree of the other races and the costs and time of the buildings and units. Dont fucking whine for the fucking sake of whining. The thing that is worrying me is that Blizzard seems to put zerg on the defensive early on and has to rush to lair. The presence of the Queen and only zergligns kind of encourage this. But then again in broodwar ZvT, zerg ALWAYS goes for lair tech to get lurkers and never really utilizing tier 1 except for lings. I wish we can get more details like stats on units and buildings for all three races, in addition to the tech trees. I said you can go for LURKERS OR ULTRALISK stupid as in you can tech again. | ||
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SlickR12345
Macedonia408 Posts
But its not that different, for example we barely see a zerg player finish before lair anyways. Few cases for hydra rush here and there but that's it. Though it would be nice if zerg still had that option. Maybe banling being an upgrade in the spawning pool at tier 1, or at least have the banaling nest being abble to be build with hatchery. Also i hope to see lurker improved a lot since its tier 3 now. Though nothing is final, we are probably going to see a lot changes. EDIT: I would wait few more days until WWI and then we are going to see the newest and official units, tech tree and stats! | ||
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Showtime!
Canada2938 Posts
At this rate it could be another year before BETA. | ||
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crabapple
United States397 Posts
baneling nydus worm infestor hydra muta/corruptor roach overseer. sunken/spore 9 unlocked units. while at the hatchery stage, it's juts zergling + queen and it's creep thingies. and at hive u get lurkers and ultras n gaurdians. (upgrading the queen is there too, but that is also at the lair stage.) the thing we should be asking is "are lurkers ultras and guardians really enough oomph for a hive stage? achieving lair stage is majorly expansive compared to the hatchery stage. perhaps they wanted to restrict the beginnings to zergling/creeptumor harass, and then keep opponents guessing with a vast array of possibilities at the lair stage. i do think this would give the zerg a boost in the unknown surprize/ versatility theme. but really, are lurkers ultras and gaurdians a big enough upgrade for a hive stage when u have the roach at lair stage, mass banelings, as well as the supposed-late-game-caster the infestor available from the lair stage? whlie i like the concept of giving a vast unit possibility from the lair stage, i think they will have to do quite a bit of fixing-up to this current version of the having the hive unlock upgrades for a vast array of existing units (ex - unlocking some infestor spells, increasing speed for the worm, zergling adrenal glands, baneling damage) so that getting a hive is much more substancially meaningful than just lurker/ultra/guardian. | ||
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Kuja900
United States3564 Posts
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Showtime!
Canada2938 Posts
I would like to see at least one new unit at each stage of tech. =( I don't think that will happen though. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On June 23 2008 02:46 crabapple wrote: + Show Spoiler + the zerg tree is kind of looking like the old protoss tech tree. where once you hit the cybernetics core, you can do a whole lot of stuff. and the only real limitation is resource-wise.theres like a billion things for the lair stage. baneling nydus worm infestor hydra muta/corruptor roach overseer. sunken/spore 9 unlocked units. while at the hatchery stage, it's juts zergling + queen and it's creep thingies. and at hive u get lurkers and ultras n gaurdians. (upgrading the queen is there too, but that is also at the lair stage.) the thing we should be asking is "are lurkers ultras and guardians really enough oomph for a hive stage? achieving lair stage is majorly expansive compared to the hatchery stage. perhaps they wanted to restrict the beginnings to zergling/creeptumor harass, and then keep opponents guessing with a vast array of possibilities at the lair stage. i do think this would give the zerg a boost in the unknown surprize/ versatility theme. but really, are lurkers ultras and gaurdians a big enough upgrade for a hive stage when u have the roach at lair stage, mass banelings, as well as the supposed-late-game-caster the infestor available from the lair stage? whlie i like the concept of giving a vast unit possibility from the lair stage, i think they will have to do quite a bit of fixing-up to this current version of the having the hive unlock upgrades for a vast array of existing units (ex - unlocking some infestor spells, increasing speed for the worm, zergling adrenal glands, baneling damage) so that getting a hive is much more substancially meaningful than just lurker/ultra/guardian. Hive is most likely needed for the tier 3 upgrade of every unit, which would include one of the infester spells, roach 15 extra hp regen and we don't know for the other units. | ||
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crabapple
United States397 Posts
On June 23 2008 03:02 Klockan3 wrote: Hive is most likely needed for the tier 3 upgrade of every unit, which would include one of the infester spells, roach 15 extra hp regen and we don't know for the other units. ah ic. good to get a confirmation. then actually hive stage could become quite fearsome with the upgrades. cause if you have a good foundation for everything, all those new available upgrades can get run at the same time. so after a short while, the zerg army will become significantly stronger practically all at once. i think the "old-protoss-like" tech tree (lots of options, only limited by resources) fits the zerg a lot better. deadly. | ||
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shimmy
Poland997 Posts
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MrRammstein
Poland339 Posts
Anyways BIG Thank You for bringing this! | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
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Showtime!
Canada2938 Posts
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On June 22 2008 17:38 Klockan3 wrote: Guys guys, screaming wolf over nothing... They maybe have decreased the time to get to lair and/or decreased the cost to get to lair. Lair is now the cybernetics core for the zerg, not so alien tbh. How does it matter? It just gives zerg less options. No, lair is not cybernetics. But yeah, cybernetics is also imperfect if you theorycraft the ideal tech tree for strategy. And that's why we have SC2. To fix those issues and design the game for fun and interesting high level play. | ||
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MrRammstein
Poland339 Posts
unless goes Hydra all in vs P or Hydra vs Muta wars v Z So in theory in early nothing should change so much... no Medics but no Sunkens too, Swarm Clutches instead > Marine push in early possible... but Zerglings alone may be enough (for sure not like in SC1) *bit later* Marines + Jackals > Zerglings...? even if yes Burrow may be helpful... | ||
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d.arkive
United States843 Posts
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ray1234
Canada679 Posts
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Tiamat
United States498 Posts
a) Too many units overlap each other. Roach and Hydra are the same damn thing, I hate the Roach it needs to GTFO. What is the point of this unit, seriously what role does it fill? I am pretty sure they are going to make the Hydra good vs Armor and roach good vs fleshy but thats not very Zergy to me. Its the same damn unit. b) Lurkers Tier3? Um I'll take my ultra instead. They both counter the same thing, unless they make lurkers good vs armored units or something. But a high HP ultra with cleave is way better in most situations. Hell Ultras could even trash peons just as good as lurkers with the cleave attack. Another case of two more units filling the same role. c) Queen needs to go, move it to single player. They are revolving way too much around the Queen. I could accept the Queen as a "bonus" defender or something gimicky to play around with, but the queen should NOT be the focal point of zerg. As it stands now, they are trying to do way too much with the Queen and its better off moving this unit to single player because the rest of the race is suffering too much. d) Only Zerglings at Hatchery but 5 different options at Lair? I am sure this is going to change, if it doesn't I am speechless. At this point, its not worth getting Hive once you get lair because all the cool toys are in Lair tech, except for Ultras (and i guess if you want lurkers which in the current build is useless due to the ultra) | ||
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LordofAscension
United States589 Posts
On June 22 2008 14:53 Highways wrote: I'm pretty sure SCL got this from their exclusive Q&A with Karune No, we made this ourselves. Please read what we wrote about it: http://www.sclegacy.com/showthread.php?t=149 We aren't 100% sure it's accurate at all but we're trying. We'll get the latest info in a week so it will be accurate as of then. ~LoA | ||
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DragoonPK
3259 Posts
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Chuiu
3470 Posts
On June 23 2008 05:12 Tiamat wrote: Of all the races, Zerg seems to be the most screwed up. There are so many wrong things with SC2 Zerg. a) Too many units overlap each other. Roach and Hydra are the same damn thing, I hate the Roach it needs to GTFO. What is the point of this unit, seriously what role does it fill? I am pretty sure they are going to make the Hydra good vs Armor and roach good vs fleshy but thats not very Zergy to me. Its the same damn unit. b) Lurkers Tier3? Um I'll take my ultra instead. They both counter the same thing, unless they make lurkers good vs armored units or something. But a high HP ultra with cleave is way better in most situations. Hell Ultras could even trash peons just as good as lurkers with the cleave attack. Another case of two more units filling the same role. c) Queen needs to go, move it to single player. They are revolving way too much around the Queen. I could accept the Queen as a "bonus" defender or something gimicky to play around with, but the queen should NOT be the focal point of zerg. As it stands now, they are trying to do way too much with the Queen and its better off moving this unit to single player because the rest of the race is suffering too much. d) Only Zerglings at Hatchery but 5 different options at Lair? I am sure this is going to change, if it doesn't I am speechless. At this point, its not worth getting Hive once you get lair because all the cool toys are in Lair tech, except for Ultras (and i guess if you want lurkers which in the current build is useless due to the ultra) a. Roach is ground only, it overlaps with lurker. I agree it should be redefined and the Hydralisk should be rebalanced to be more like its SC counterpart. b. Petition for lurker to replace roach makes sense to me. c. Agree, SC isn't about larger powerful units. Even if it makes sense lore wise to have a queen it doesn't make sense RTS wise because its mostly irreplaceable since it pretty much is where static base defenses come from (see tech chart). And what kind of game are we making again? d. Yeah it needs to be ling/hydra till lair then from there on tech is fine (also changing b). EDIT: I just noticed that roach den is before lair tech, so it helps Zerg stay strong early in the game. But the fact that you can't get any form of anti-air until lair is just stupid (except static defenses, but those can't move halfway across the map). Roach still needs to be replaced by Hydralisk. | ||
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G5
United States2921 Posts
nothing but lings before lair... u get a queen and lings... not even sunks... jesus christ | ||
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Queasy
United States48 Posts
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
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MrRammstein
Poland339 Posts
edit: or not but I downloaded something different from OP than it is now ;P anyways good news  | ||
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Chuiu
3470 Posts
On June 23 2008 06:59 anotak wrote: Shit, I swear that image has changed since yesterday... It most definitely had an arrow pointing from lair to roach den. Yeah I think the image changed. | ||
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crazie-penguin
United States1253 Posts
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On June 23 2008 08:21 crazie-penguin wrote: Hahaha the image DID change lololololololol The first version of the picture had no ultralisk Den. Second version had roachden at the wrong tier. Third upcoming version will have sunkens and spore colonies available at tier 1 where evolution chamer will be a requirement to upgrade to spore. | ||
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Savio1
34 Posts
On June 22 2008 15:02 anotak wrote: hmm... this seems pretty disturbing that zerg only have lings before lair tech Am I the only one who actually looked at the picture???????? Why do ppl keep saying that lings are the only unit until lair? Roach comes at same time hydra used to. Look at the dang picture! Roach and lings are both hatchery tech! Reapeat: Roach is hatchery tech and does not require lair according to this flow chart. EDIT: For those many who couldn't read the flow chart correctly, start at the roach and follow the arrows. You will reach the hatchery. | ||
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Queasy
United States48 Posts
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
On June 23 2008 10:39 Savio1 wrote: Am I the only one who actually looked at the picture???????? Why do ppl keep saying that lings are the only unit until lair? Roach comes at same time hydra used to. Look at the dang picture! Roach and lings are both hatchery tech! Reapeat: Roach is hatchery tech and does not require lair according to this flow chart. EDIT: For those many who couldn't read the flow chart correctly, start at the roach and follow the arrows. You will reach the hatchery. the picture was edited... | ||
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SwaY.
Dominican Republic98 Posts
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
I didn't read the entire post but i want to make sure you get this in your brain : T1 Units have not only glings but also Queen AND ROACHES. It's even more units than sc1 so wtf ? Stop whining. They may not have a sunken nor spore colony but as far as i can see there still many building missing so we can't know what it looks like until we get further info from blizzard. Edit : Oh ok silly me for not reading the entire thread. I also blame the op to edit his picture ! | ||
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Savio1
34 Posts
Ok, whew. That explains a lot. I was freaking out that the brightest SC players couldn't read a chart. You've all regained my respect ;p | ||
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Savio1
34 Posts
On June 23 2008 11:38 SwaY. wrote: 100 bucks lurks are going to get switched to lair again before retail hits Lets hope. | ||
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
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Highways
Australia6106 Posts
On June 23 2008 12:28 RaiZ wrote: God i'm sick of ppl getting a quick sight @ the picture and writting something when they're clearly missing something. I didn't read the entire post but i want to make sure you get this in your brain : T1 Units have not only glings but also Queen AND ROACHES. It's even more units than sc1 so wtf ? Stop whining. They may not have a sunken nor spore colony but as far as i can see there still many building missing so we can't know what it looks like until we get further info from blizzard. Edit : Oh ok silly me for not reading the entire thread. I also blame the op to edit his picture ! Also in sc1 zergs dont stay at tier 1 for a long time anyways zvt: after third hatch go straight to lair zvz: lair very quick zvp: fairly quick lair, unless going hydra/ling all-in | ||
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Nitrogen
United States5345 Posts
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
hydra and lurk at same tier? no ty If you move hydra back to first, it could make sense, but ling, roach, hydra, queen seems a bit extensive for tier one. Maybe switching roach and hydra tier positioning and moving lurker back to tier two? Altho the units would have to be adjusted to fill their new roles. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
Damn it looks like zerg doesn't have many units huh... The infestor would be the key caster it seems. LOlolOL can you imagine swarm guardian vs mass tank? It's like free zealot drop haha For those who says hatchery tech too short, it's like... Okay when do you mass hydras anyways? vs protoss F.E. is the only case I can think of. You certainly don't mass hydras ZvT or ZvZ, and we have queen to compensate. So no biggie really. | ||
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caution.slip
United States775 Posts
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2746 Posts
a) zerg doesn't get any other caster and they usually had queens at lair. b) no consume as far as I know. Which IMHO is a great idea. Swarm can be a really powerfull spell but you won't see the "swarm spam" that were used to. I do think they should make roaches able to fire at air, with short range and slower speed against hydras they won't be that good at killing air units but they can at least chase them off because off their high regen. Plus you need tier 1 anti air either way even if it's not optimal AA. I personally like both the new tech tree and the new hydralisk. It seems like it's going to be quite a scary beast now. | ||
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L0thar
987 Posts
On June 23 2008 17:15 evanthebouncy! wrote: Damn it looks like zerg doesn't have many units huh... The infestor would be the key caster it seems. 15 right? Not counting infested terrans or broodlings. That means +3 than in BW. Toss have also 15 units, +1 since BW. And then look at terran - 13, just like in BW. That only shows how much blizzard care about terran, they even can't come with more units than in original, unlike other two races... | ||
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dcttr66
United States555 Posts
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On June 23 2008 20:03 caution.slip wrote: infestor out at lair is a big change from its last tier unit role in SC It doesn't have consume anymore though | ||
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Loverman
Romania266 Posts
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Tritanis
Poland344 Posts
On June 24 2008 05:10 Loverman wrote: I think you guys are forgeting the fact that the infested buildings the infestor affects spawn different types of units, infested tanks and zealots have been mentioned >.< Where? I've heard about infested marines and PROTOSS but nothing about zealots and tanks. Btw zerg upgrades are back to sc1 state: We cut the Zerg upgrade per-unit idea. It didn't really work. You had significantly fewer choices by upgrading them individually. It made the game feel a little more predictable (in a bad way). The Evo Chamber is doing what you remember it doing from SC1. http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general&t=1388238&s=new&#new | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
The only strat I see losing from this is 3 hatch sauron/vanilla zerg style. But you need upgrades with that strat anyways so you are gonna get to lair after 3rd hatch anyways. That is strange how sunken/spore are lair tech though. wtf is up with that? Can't they just make the walking towers ability a lair upgrade and keep the requirement pool/evo? | ||
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dogen
Belgium108 Posts
We cut the Zerg upgrade per-unit idea. It didn't really work. You had significantly fewer choices by upgrading them individually. It made the game feel a little more predictable (in a bad way). The Evo Chamber is doing what you remember it doing from SC1. | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
BTW...does anyone else think the new Ultralisk Cavern kinda looks like a giant two-hole vagina? It's disturbing...haha. | ||
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TheOvermind77
United States923 Posts
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
On June 24 2008 12:49 PH wrote: The new image and updated tech tree looks a LOT better... BTW...does anyone else think the new Ultralisk Cavern kinda looks like a giant two-hole vagina? It's disturbing...haha. It seems that it has stairs too? wtf? Look really close at it | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
You should have made a post when you changed the picture, too much mess isn't fun. A note in the original post saying when the picture was updated would be nice as well. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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praetor.at
Austria92 Posts
all the time,effort and precious balancing that was done with SCBW until now, making the awesome game as it is, will be just lost, and new balance has to be made from scratch. Im all for regular SCBW in 3D That being said, I think (=hope) the game will be closer and closer to BW with retail coming. I mean, they'll listen to pro people that will be invited to test the game. Hopefully they don't invite... like.... WC3 Pros. Duh. | ||
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Chuiu
3470 Posts
On June 24 2008 12:49 PH wrote: The new image and updated tech tree looks a LOT better... BTW...does anyone else think the new Ultralisk Cavern kinda looks like a giant two-hole vagina? It's disturbing...haha. On June 24 2008 14:42 GunsofthePatriots wrote: It seems that it has stairs too? wtf? Look really close at it 2 + 2 = Stairway to Heaven? | ||
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ChainLightning
Canada21 Posts
Other than that, if they buffed the hydra up, they might have done the same with lurker now that it's at hive tech (and isn't cloaked/fully burrowed). It's still too early for anything final, The geniuses at blizzard will figure it out. DONT LET ME DOWN BLIZZARD! | ||
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Tritanis
Poland344 Posts
On June 24 2008 23:55 praetor.at wrote: i think its a complete and utter waste to rework the game as it's done now. all the time,effort and precious balancing that was done with SCBW until now, making the awesome game as it is, will be just lost, and new balance has to be made from scratch. Im all for regular SCBW in 3D That being said, I think (=hope) the game will be closer and closer to BW with retail coming. I mean, they'll listen to pro people that will be invited to test the game. Hopefully they don't invite... like.... WC3 Pros. Duh. BURN IN HELL HERETIC!!! This is probably the most dumb reply I've ever read here <><><><><> | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5771 Posts
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UmmTheHobo
United States650 Posts
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PH
United States6173 Posts
On June 25 2008 03:50 Tritanis wrote: BURN IN HELL HERETIC!!! This is probably the most dumb reply I've ever read here <><><><><> I actually almost agree with him... I'm so used to BW...it's gonna be weird having to transition to SC2. It's a weird thought as it is; imagine what it'll be like when SC2 is actually released. | ||
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