Did I get this right or zerg has zero mobile anti-air AND zero mobile anti-cloak before lair? So there are 2 different tech branches that you have zero defense against and cannot fight against unless you play your opponent's game?

It sounds so freaking crippling. No way that is gonna last long if it's true. It's just absurd.

Last Romantic

United States20661 Posts

June 22 2008 07:33 GMT

#22

On June 22 2008 16:31 VIB wrote:
Did I get this right or zerg has zero mobile anti-air AND zero mobile anti-cloak before lair? So there are 2 different tech branches that you have zero defense against and cannot fight against unless you play your opponent's game?

It sounds so freaking crippling. No way that is gonna last long if it's true. It's just absurd.

Oh right, overlords. I forgot about that.

So, how about a big fat to hell with zerg and let's all play the manly Protoss race.

Aerox

Malaysia1213 Posts

June 22 2008 07:38 GMT

#23

Defensive structures on tier two. :S

anyway, pointing this out even if it doesn't make me feel any better: On tier one, we have zerglings AND a queen*COUGH*HERO*COUGH*.

One more thing I'm not sure if it counts as missing: BURROW. Is it available by default?

Krohm

Canada1857 Posts

June 22 2008 07:41 GMT

#24

On June 22 2008 16:33 Last Romantic wrote:

Show nested quote +

Oh right, overlords. I forgot about that.

So, how about a big fat to hell with zerg and let's all play the manly Protoss race.

Here here!

By the looks of it, I'm going to be switching to toss for the first few patches until a bit of balancing comes out. But who knows though, maybe it'll work out in the beginning.

HypnoticPoo

Singapore291 Posts

June 22 2008 07:52 GMT

#25

Should'nt baneling upgrades be at the spawning pool? Instead of having a seperate building.

Krzycho

Poland442 Posts

June 22 2008 08:05 GMT

#26

Looks like baneling nest is able to move :D, or maybe it just looks like it is.

useLess

United States4781 Posts

June 22 2008 08:14 GMT

#27

D: @ lurker as hive tech

also, the infestor reminds me of:

anotak

United States1537 Posts

June 22 2008 08:17 GMT

#28

they should give zerg medics and reavers as tier 1 units

VIB

Brazil3567 Posts

June 22 2008 08:22 GMT

#29

On June 22 2008 16:41 Krohm wrote:

Show nested quote +

Here here!

By the looks of it, I'm going to be switching to toss for the first few patches until a bit of balancing comes out. But who knows though, maybe it'll work out in the beginning.

Nah I doubt that will get too far. I'm 100% sure this tech tree will change before beta ends at least. It is just too ridiculously absurd to not become clearly wrong when progamers start playing it more seriously on beta.

I mean, how do they even consider no anti-air and anti-cloak on t1 for testing?

Aesop

Hungary11305 Posts

June 22 2008 08:22 GMT

#30

It more or less dictates a style of play, i.e. teching fast and getting lots of gas to access these tech units. So low tech zerg seems to be inviable as a whole. This structure reminds me of Wc3 where some races have simply no use before they hit tier 2 (well, almost all of them).

anotak

United States1537 Posts

June 22 2008 08:30 GMT

#31

maybe they want to enforce the 20apm no hotkey 1base tech to battlecruisers off of 2ports and attack zerg with the "ultimate weapon" style of play... suddenly with the thor and the mothership and warp ray and bigger ultralisks and whatnot and removal of medics, higher-tieredness of existing zerg units, higher removal of vults.........

maybe.

Dromar

United States2145 Posts

June 22 2008 08:36 GMT

#32

Agree with the posts so far.

I think one way they can keep the tech tree the way it is AND not cripple Zerg early game is to make the lair upgrade cost, say 150 or 200 mins and no gas. And take like 30-45 seconds. Then, you start lair and get gas at the same time, and when lair finishes, you've got gas to make a detectorlord and/or hydras to defend. If on the other hand, you scout your opponent NOT cheesing, you can use your first 100 gas to get superlings.

anyway, couple things that seemed wierd when I looked at the tech tree:
1. Nothing but lings/queen until lair.
2. Dark Swarm at lair tech (I think infestor still has DS right?)
3. Lurkers at hive tech :r
4. Don't like separate buildings for banelings rather than an upgrade from spawning pool.
5. Don't like building upgrade Hydra Den -> Deep Warren rather than upgrade a la Lurker tech in BW.

Klockan3

Sweden2866 Posts

June 22 2008 08:38 GMT

#33

Guys guys, screaming wolf over nothing... They maybe have decreased the time to get to lair and/or decreased the cost to get to lair. Lair is now the cybernetics core for the zerg, not so alien tbh.

Also the swarm cluch is still a defensive structure.

United States6173 Posts

June 22 2008 08:38 GMT

#34

Well...one interesting thing to note is the Infestor being at tier 2...that's the unit that has swarm and the new version of plague, right? At the very least, having swarm that early will be interesting.

Lair tech had better be like 50-50 if that's all zerg gets, though...I swear.

VIB

Brazil3567 Posts

June 22 2008 09:10 GMT

#35

Dromar and Klockan3, they can't fix it by just making lair faster/cheaper. Because that would be overpowered the other way around. All hard counters in the game are timed so one race can build the counter before the opponent can build the unit that requires a hard counter. Ex.: building detection comes before building cloacking, anti-air before air, drop vs drop for all races etc. If they make lair faster zerg could make a cloaked infestor attack before observers or drop your cliff before you can drop back to defend. etc etc

And you can't just increase the time to build of those to make up for faster lair, because then you wouldn't be able to change tech for those to counter enemy. Ex.: you're already at lair teching to drop to counter your opponent teching to colossus. Then he techs to DTs, you scout it, but you can't get overlord detect upgrade in time because it takes 10 years to upgrade, to make up for the fast lair.

Integra

Sweden5626 Posts

June 22 2008 09:10 GMT

#36

OF COURSE Zerg only will have ONE Land hitting offensive unit unil Lair.
Zerg CAn't make Spores colonies, OR Sunkens OR roaches until Lair but they can make evolution chambers. Basicly what Blizzard means is that Zerg will use buildings placement to hold the game until lair and....

The tech tree that SClegacy has is obvious flawed.

The requirement for Roach is a roachden, requirement for a roachden is spawning pool. Not Lair

SCLegazy even forgott to put in buildings in the tech tree. One of the posters told them that they forgott to put in the Ultralisk den so they updated it.

ImgGartok

United States216 Posts

June 22 2008 09:11 GMT

#37

Hopefully Hydras will return to tier 1 and roach can stay as tier 2, I don't know why there was a need to move hydras to lair tech in the first place.

Integra

Sweden5626 Posts

June 22 2008 09:16 GMT

#38

On June 22 2008 18:11 Oc wrote:
Hopefully Hydras will return to tier 1 and roach can stay as tier 2, I don't know why there was a need to move hydras to lair tech in the first place.

It's the other way around, roaches are tier 1 with a regeneration upgrade at tier 3 to make them useful even at tier 3. Hydras were planned to be a tier 2.

Tier1 units are roaches and zerlings,
Tier2 are mutalisks hydras corruptors and infestors

Tier 3 are Ultralisks and Guardians.

Banelings are unknown. think they are tier 2.
Lurkers unknown. Could be tier 3