EPTWhy would GomTV start a new league and run GSI if the situation is grim? It makes no sense.
Because the GSI made a leap into tapping a market hundreds of times larger than the current saturated one in korea. Starcraft Declining in Korea - Page 7
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L
Canada4732 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
what needs to be addressed is whether sc is in decline or not!  | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On May 21 2008 07:28 SpiritAshura wrote: This doesn't come as a huge shock to me, I just want to know where "Blizzard, the game company that developed ``StarCraft,'' releases its sequel this year." Probably just some BS fact they came up with unless I missed something huge? Actually they have said that for roughly 3 months now, its just that people like you think that its BS eventhough it is confirmed by Blizzard that they are aiming for a 2008 release. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/portals.php?game=33&show=page&name=gamereplays_visits_blizzard&st=2 Read the last line there, and I have never seen Blizzard say anything different and this statement here even confirms it even more. Also if we look at history WC3 beta started 4 months before its release, and WC3 was far from finished in its beta they even added a new unit in it and reworked a lot of fundamentals in it, so seeing a sc2 beta at the end of the summer is not that unlikely from what we have seen of the game so far. | ||
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Tinithor
United States1552 Posts
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PobTheCad
Australia893 Posts
i think starcraft has been in decline in the west since WC3 came out personally , alot less new players now it's mostly the real die hards nowdays | ||
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frankbg
Canada335 Posts
On May 21 2008 11:57 Pellucidity wrote: - This pseudo-intellectual post was brought to you by frankbg. - Lets see, I have the counterstrike case infront of me. It says first person shooter. Interesting. There also appear to be deathmatches... interesting. Just because it's only played in teams competitively doesn't mean it's a team FPS. As for the camping comment, how is it sad? is it not the truth? How would you 1v1 if you had to? "PROXY NADE AND FLANK PEWPEW". You do actually have 1v1, within a 5v5 setup. If 4 of each team's players die, you do have to 1v1. Go and watch a pro game see if people camp. Now saying there are deathmatches is like me judging SC from BGH and fastest on bnet, once again, you don't know enough to debate this topic. Since you took the liberty of insulting me in your opening to the post, I'll return the favor: You're fucking retarded and don't know what you're talking about. I have a friend who plays CS competitively in one of the top three Dutch clans. I'm not saying he could take on any of the pro clans but he does compete in Lans and he told me they have a set number of strategies per map. Also, I'd like to see your name on lan/tournament sheets. See if you're actually half as pro as you are insinuating you are. Each time might have a set number of strats, because no one can learn 100 strats x 10 maps and execute them perfectly (since you need all 5 players to work the strat perfectly). That does not mean theres 5/6 possible strats. Once again, flawed logic based on your lack of knowledge about the game. My personnal CS experience will be listed at the end of the post. As for communication, "HE'S BEHIND THE TREE" hardly qualifies as anything. And claiming 75% of professional CS is communication and psychology/mind games is just outrageous, unless you're as simple minded as you look, in which case I suppose you're right. If your friend denies that high level CS is 75% mindgame, he is lying to you about his status. Also, if you think "HES BEHIND THE TREE" is the kind of call people make, then I shouldn't even reply to this post because what you need is to hop on the short yellow bus, your sped friends are waiting for you to go to school. I am indeed terrible at CS. This is because I played it twice and got bored. The CS learning curve is _ where as SC's is I and quite frankly, games like that don't interest me. Oh, and I'd rather not work for Dan Stapleface, I reckon you two would fit like a pair of shoes though. Both of you reckon you're top gosugamers and that the games you play are extremely difficult but I've never heard of either of you. So you played it twice but you can assess the learning curve properly? Yeah, cause that makes sense.... I don't reckon I'm top gosugamer. I said I played high level Counter-Strike, that doesn't mean I am "pro" as pro means someone who is paid to play (go pick up a dictionary). Once again my exp will be at the bottom of the page. My CS background: Online Pre-1.6 XD's / Xtreme Dreamers (Dreamcite LAN center sponsored team) / CAL-Main [e--] / Team Eminence / CAL-Invite iwa. / Issues with authority / CAL-Main [fe]- / Flawless Execution / CAL-Main and UGS-Main Champions cBs/Excel / Cheap Banana Slide, name changed to Excel / CAL-Intermediate Finals (loss to JMC) Online Post 1.6 warped / Team Warped / CAL-Main kinship / Kinship / CAL-Premier [4R] / 4thReich / CEVO-A (4th Seed of playoffs, moved up to IM) aoL / another online Legend / CAL-Main [fe]- / Flawless Execution (remake) / CAL-Intermediate LAN Experience WCG Canadian Finals 2006 / Quarterfinalist ESWC Canadian Qualifier 2006 / Round of 8 WCG Canadian Finals 2005 / (forgot result, we had a PUG going and didn't place too good) DreamLAN 1 / PUG team, Round of 16 DreamLAN 2 / 2nd Place, Team [tup] Lan-4-Ever TR / 4th, Team daL PureLAN 8 / 7th, 5wW (friendly PUG) Also attended many other smaller lans where I forgot our placement, including all of PureLANs, ETS Lans, Basefrag Lans as player, staff and match caster. So yeah, I think I know wtf I am talking about when it comes to CS. | ||
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
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frankbg
Canada335 Posts
On May 21 2008 12:57 soudo wrote: The one thing I'll say about this whole "SC vs CS" thing is this: comparing Starcraft to Counterstrike is like comparing chess to checkers. Sure, there can be LOTS of depth in both games, but just like in a game of checkers, CS can only have so many different "moves" and then we've basically seen it all (at least to the un-pro audience). Shoot, dodge, kill vs rush/cheese/FE/omgzrecall/dtdrop/etc... Lol. Definatly not biaised..... So what's your history with CS. I mean, you must be pretty good to make such assessments, no? Saying the moves in CS are limited to "Shoot, dodge, kill" is like me saying the moves in SC are limited to "attack move, move, gather". Once again, clearly no understanding of the game you are judging on. Haven't you guys learned anything from the PCG article? You can't really have a decent opinion of whats involved in a game without actually playing it at a good enough level. On the other hand, I thought Skew's reply was quite accurate. SC is alot more exhausting than CS and the pressure is indeed shared between 5 players. But the fact that you have to act as a team compensates for less mouse movements, it adds a entirely new aspect that you don't find in SC, outside of 2v2s but they are nothing like the coordination and communication you need with CS. Also in CS it's more about accuracy of your mouse movement and anticipation rather than fast click and high apm. You don't need to look at two things and switching between these 2 every .05 seconds (bad players do that where they'll position in a bad place and have to watch 2 spots). | ||
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[X]Ken_D
United States4650 Posts
Can we please stop the BW vs CS debate? Both takes a lot skill, end discussion. Starcraft Declining in Korea. DISCUSS. | ||
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dat[fury]
Philippines129 Posts
On May 21 2008 18:09 frankbg wrote: Lol. Definatly not biaised..... So what's your history with CS. I mean, you must be pretty good to make such assessments, no? Saying the moves in CS are limited to "Shoot, dodge, kill" is like me saying the moves in SC are limited to "attack move, move, gather". Once again, clearly no understanding of the game you are judging on. Haven't you guys learned anything from the PCG article? You can't really have a decent opinion of whats involved in a game without actually playing it at a good enough level. On the other hand, I thought Skew's reply was quite accurate. SC is alot more exhausting than CS and the pressure is indeed shared between 5 players. But the fact that you have to act as a team compensates for less mouse movements, it adds a entirely new aspect that you don't find in SC, outside of 2v2s but they are nothing like the coordination and communication you need with CS. Also in CS it's more about accuracy of your mouse movement and anticipation rather than fast click and high apm. You don't need to look at two things and switching between these 2 every .05 seconds (bad players do that where they'll position in a bad place and have to watch 2 spots). Oh SC is not only attack move gather only but also build 10 plus buildings control about hundred units simultenously and also you need to scout patrol use ur skill and spells correctly and precise. also pro gamer of sc need accurate and also fast mouse movements to control all of the units and groups. Sc 2v2 needs coordination between the allies so that they can take out both of their enemy, the are multitasking because they can see what their allies is seeing in the screen so they need more movement and coordination. its like playing 1v1 and doubling it. So starcraft moves are not very limited.This is my only opinion about your post! On the other hand I am not believing that SC is declining but i it also its WOW flavor because maybe of lack of colorful micro or strategy or even strong charismatic players. I also think that they should lessen their competitions for only annually and make it more longer so that fans can cheer for fav player for a long time. OGN and MSL also need to care about foreign fans of SC so that they can have higher turnouts. SC2 needs to be a good game for the SC leagacy to last longer. I certainly believe Blizzard is doing its best to make SC2 a worhty successor of SC1 ^^ | ||
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frankbg
Canada335 Posts
On May 21 2008 13:34 HeavOnEarth wrote: Im not implying counterstrike was a horrific game; it's perfectly fine in it's own right, What i will not have is people asserting the fact that CS> SC. 5 Reasons SC> CS. First of all, Of course the CS people will argue that CS> SC in popularity Wow, a game you have to pay for, (steam account) And actually has sponsoring? People can actually play all day and make money WHOAA. THAT MEANS YOU GUYS CAN ACTUALLY GET GOOD AT A GAME WHEREAS we actually play this game for fun. If you are going to argue that top tier players play the game for fun, you don't even know the half of playing CS competitively. Starcraft isn't some glamor sport, despite the popularity in korea, It's graphics are pretty horrid in comparison to real day games whereas im pretty sure you first got into counter strike because everything was shiny and neat and set up cause you payed monthly for your steam account. What are you smoking? Why are you even talking? You clearly never even have been on steam and probably never played CS. Payed monthly for your steam account? Seriously? Damn I have been missing 5 years of payments then! Seriously though, don't even touch the subject if you're gonna start off by saying Steam is pay-to-play (when it's not). What game is BETTER starcraft or counterstrike? Starcraft, by far. Counterstrike can only be coupled with pathetic society and capitalism Huh, seriously, I think you need to stop smoking dope bro. Btw, I think Marx is calling for you, better go back to the Soviet block. Pathetic society and capitalism? LOL. I would call you a retard but I'll refrain, since anyone reading this will already conclude you are. 1. Starcraft has LAN latency , Chaos, iCCup , for middle tier even low skilled players have easy access to this. You can create a LAN server through hamachi for CS aswell, I'm surprised someone with your intelligence didn't figure that one out before posting and looking like a complete tool. Also, unlike other systems (I think bnet does that, not 100% sure), Steam does not host the games for you, therefore it does not dictate your latency. There are no latency issues whatsoever with CS, as long as you play with people on your (relative) timezone. East people play East/Cent, West people play West/Cent (using North America as exemple). 1. CounterStrike On the other hand, has FPS GG Latency ping. People dont even LEAD or aim anymore, they just spray an ak at headshot level and hope . Please dont even try to argue that cause u know that's what you do vs laggers. Rofl. Ya ok noob. Stop playing on servers all the way across the world or get off your 56k, whatever you're doing, you're clearly wrong. If all you see is spray and pray, you're either so bad you cant tell when people recoil control or you just play with baddies like you. 2.Starcraft is actually FAST , Apm please. 2. counterstrike ,"Oh look i can buy a gun and have everything set up with 5 buttons" Let's spam "a" and "d" and then throw a nade and crouch and jump what is that like 7 keys in a minute where starcraft can be 7 keys in a second? Once again, complete Ignorance. I buy my weapons within 2-3 seconds max. Obviously, just like if you played a random noob mod in SC, if you play on a public CS server, you'll have time to do so, just like you would have time to build 85 cannons in SC vs the computer or on a UMS. Also, if you click to buy your guns, you're REALLY bad (I doubt you actually ever played CS since you stated it's monthly pay to play). I'm sure you run into walls and spaz out whenever you run into some action anyways so be happy theres "5 buttons" (theres actually a lot more. lol) cause anymore would probably blow your tiny brains out. 3. Ok they both have mind games, Since i dont play at that tier of CS i wont go into that. (obviously SC>CS however ) So you're saying you have no clue, yet you make a judgement anyways. Oh well, just like the rest of your trash post. 4. Multitasking. If u cant do that in starcraft you lose so hard, so easily. 4. Woww i have a thing called radar it tells me where everything is , "getting shanked is considered noob" where as in SC a sneaky play like that, reflects the skill of the OTHER person cleverly timing his distractions and feints while dropping or harassing something important. What do u have in CS" Ohh I SEE YOU THAR HI. YOU SEE ME TOO LOL. Huh, I think you haven't been playing CS, but CSS. In CS you don't see enemies on your radar (ever.), only your teammates. Also, I'm pretty sure you can't use the radar without taking a pause from the play anyways. Good players keep track of about a half dozen things in the UI just like you would keep track of minerals and minimap in SC. Your argument is like saying: "LOL THERES A MINIMAP IN SC, LOL I SEE YOU THAR HI" and ignoring fog of war. Again, ignorance is the key word here. I could just go on and on, but NOT going to play a game that's as stupid as you look, (CS supporters) , I'm rather going to play 1;1 matches, unlike some people who decide that 1;1 is not a test of skill Who said 1:1 isn't a test of skill? It's the standard competitive mode for SC, just like 5v5 is the standard for CS. By the way, you could always 1v1 in CS, it's just considered irrelevent because it only tests your aiming and twitch reaction when the actual game (5v5) requires a LOT more. Often good aimers can't teamwork and players with less aim will be chosen over them on a team. Im pretty sure this goes against the "10 commandments" But no one puts down star craft below another game; especially one of 2nd class caliber such as CS Please if im so wrong, retort me, give me your honest point, or do the committed counterstrike people have a trepidation of speaking out. I'm not putting SC below another game, I'm saying they are two different things that both require a lot of skills and in my opinion CS is equal, possibly more skill requiring, because of the multitude of things you have to understand (and that come with experience, since they don't translate visually to spectators) before you can even be anywhere close to decent. It's obvious you don't understand those skills and don't even know of their existence. But then again, from the way you see things, I don't expect anything intelligent from you anymore. Also, I wonder why 3x as many people play the "2nd class caliber" game versus SC which according to you is the all-supreme game of all times. Final word: SC is a much better spectator sport than CS, but they both require an incredible amount of skills, more than any other games in their genre and quite possibly more than any other games period (lets ignore Q3 and 1v1 DM games for arguments sake). These 2 games are the boat on which eSports has been sailing for the past 10 years. | ||
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frankbg
Canada335 Posts
On May 21 2008 18:34 dat[fury] wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 21 2008 18:09 frankbg wrote: Lol. Definatly not biaised..... So what's your history with CS. I mean, you must be pretty good to make such assessments, no? Saying the moves in CS are limited to "Shoot, dodge, kill" is like me saying the moves in SC are limited to "attack move, move, gather". Once again, clearly no understanding of the game you are judging on. Haven't you guys learned anything from the PCG article? You can't really have a decent opinion of whats involved in a game without actually playing it at a good enough level. On the other hand, I thought Skew's reply was quite accurate. SC is alot more exhausting than CS and the pressure is indeed shared between 5 players. But the fact that you have to act as a team compensates for less mouse movements, it adds a entirely new aspect that you don't find in SC, outside of 2v2s but they are nothing like the coordination and communication you need with CS. Also in CS it's more about accuracy of your mouse movement and anticipation rather than fast click and high apm. You don't need to look at two things and switching between these 2 every .05 seconds (bad players do that where they'll position in a bad place and have to watch 2 spots). Oh SC is not only attack move gather only but also build 10 plus buildings control about hundred units simultenously and also you need to scout patrol use ur skill and spells correctly and precise. also pro gamer of sc need accurate and also fast mouse movements to control all of the units and groups. Sc 2v2 needs coordination between the allies so that they can take out both of their enemy, the are multitasking because they can see what their allies is seeing in the screen so they need more movement and coordination. its like playing 1v1 and doubling it. So starcraft moves are not very limited.This is my only opinion about your post! You didn't understand my post. What I said is if You say that CS is just "shoot, dodge, kill", it's like if I would (wrongly) assume that BW was 3 moves (attack, move, gather). I know obviously that it is much more than that. But I was showing how oversimplified your assumption was. CS is much more than "shoot, dodge, kill". If you think elsewise, you've simply never played CS outside of casually in a public servers (which equals playing fastest 3v3 on bnet with complete nubs). | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
The Sims > CS! I learned a new thing today! | ||
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JoxxOr
Sweden1502 Posts
Just because a sponsor who have sponsored korean eSports in 7-8 years with a team and OSL's don't want to do it anymore does not mean that korean esport will die >.< | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
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frankbg
Canada335 Posts
On May 21 2008 18:59 lololol wrote: Your argument why CS is requires more skill and is more competitive compared to SC isn't even an argument, but pure BS. Popularity among players doesn't have a direct connection to skill(and it's more of a reverse dependancy, because harder games are played by fewer people, an obvious fact), or you want to tell me the Sims requires the most skills of all games, because it is the most popular? The Sims > CS! I learned a new thing today! Can you not read? Have you not read ANYTHING else but that argument or are you so blinded by your pre-conceived notions that you can't debate any other argument? You basically prove my whole point that you guys don't know enough about CS to judge it. The whole popularity issue wasn't even something I brought up, I was merely replying to something someone else brought up. I never said that this was the reason it required more skills. Don't put words in my mouth. Also, where do you hold stats that show more people play the Sims than CS. Also do you compare the time spent? People playing the Sims once a month aren't really gamers in my book. Seriously, stop making arguments out of your asshole. This is getting really irritating. I would quit the debating because it's offtopic but some of you guys just won't drop it. If you're gonna try to counter-argument, at least don't act like a bigoted retard. | ||
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
On May 21 2008 07:25 gwho wrote: "Counterstrike and Halo just don't cut it for spectators." the reason is because it's an FPS only RTS's have the strategic depth on top of the action Well duh! For the Romanians I hope.I guess it had to come to an end sooner or later but I believe we'll have 2-4 years of Starcraft left after SC2 comes out. <3 Hanbit | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
On May 21 2008 19:10 frankbg wrote: Can you not read? Have you not read ANYTHING else but that argument or are you so blinded by your pre-conceived notions that you can't debate any other argument? You basically prove my whole point that you guys don't know enough about CS to judge it. The whole popularity issue wasn't even something I brought up, I was merely replying to something someone else brought up. I never said that this was the reason it required more skills. Don't put words in my mouth. Also, where do you hold stats that show more people play the Sims than CS. Also do you compare the time spent? People playing the Sims once a month aren't really gamers in my book. Seriously, stop making arguments out of your asshole. This is getting really irritating. I would quit the debating because it's offtopic but some of you guys just won't drop it. If you're gonna try to counter-argument, at least don't act like a bigoted retard. What is your SC background to prove you know enough about SC to judge it? Yes, you should quit, because the only bigoted retard here is you. You don't even know what an argument is, and personal attacks are definitely not, they just show you're an idiot. | ||
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Skew
United States1019 Posts
SC at high levels is not as hard as a lot have it made out to be. It's taken foreigners so long to get where they are because #1 there's no motivation, #2 there were very few places to train hardcore (quality a problem too) and #3 no one lives near another competitor to be able to learn off of each other, which speeds the process up exponentially. CS is an entirely different fucked up world of PC gaming stress. First you have to spend years on it like on SC to get good, then AFTER you're aim, technique and understanding is top notch you have to find a team where personalities, skills and motivations match well. Then you have to train extremely hard until 5 people can work together as 1. Saying that kind of work is not as much work as a SC player goes through is nonsense. There's assloads of mental work that goes into CS, but no more than SC, and they both take absolute top ability to select an area of 5 pixels at any given time. CS's 'twitching' and working with others to become a perfect unit is something SC doesn't take. SC's doing 1000 things at once while strategizing is something CS doesn't take. Both games take huge amounts of effort and time to be top at, and both games exist in scenes that are immensely different from one another. Now, lets all stop talking about this and go make a WoW player feel like an asshat. | ||
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