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On May 21 2008 11:08 frankbg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2008 10:55 Pellucidity wrote:On May 21 2008 10:47 frankbg wrote:On May 21 2008 10:41 Wizard wrote:On May 21 2008 10:36 frankbg wrote:On May 21 2008 07:25 gwho wrote:
"Counterstrike and Halo just don't cut it for spectators."
the reason is because it's an FPS only RTS's have the strategic depth on top of the action No. Just no. FPS's can have as much if not more strategic depth to them. Maybe not Halo but Counter-Strike sure does. The thing is those strategical things don't translate into visuals. It goes on through voice communication between teammates and a good 75% of pro-level Counter-Strike is the mind game. You're basically doing just like a SC noob saying that Starcraft is just a clickfest because it's too fast. There are many many things in high level CS that make it as competitive as SC, it's just that you have to have been competitive to know about them. No. Just no. don't even try to compare sc to a shoooter. Yeah, that's why Counter-Strike is the biggest esports WORLDWIDE while Starcraft is only big in Korea. You obviously haven't played competitive Counter-Strike therefore I don't even see how you can negate my argument. Oh and playing in a public server with horrids is not "competitive". It's like playing fastest or BGH on bnet. How is Counterstrike a mind game? It can't even be played 1v1. Or well it can but both players would camp until one GG'd. As for team-related Counterstrike. There are team SC matches aswell. Which without a doubt require more skill. I'm not saying CS takes no skill or sucks, nor am I saying I am any good at it. I'm just saying SC is on a whole other level. A level CS will never reach because it lacks depth and strategy (having 5 strategies per map does not qualify lal). You just proved your complete lack of understanding for counter-strike. It is a TEAM FPS, obviously people don't play 1v1. And the fact you say "people would just camp until one GG'd" is pretty sad (trying to stay polite here and not state what I really thought about that comment). "5 strategies per map lal" Yeah, cause you would know that right? You just said you aren't good at cs (and the way you talk about the game, we can assume you're TERRIBLE at the game), so how the hell would you know how many strats there are? Just like SC, Counterstrike went through multiple "strategic revolutions" where certain teams or generation of players have changed the way certain aspects of the game are played. But then again you wouldn't know that because you're bashing something you know jack shit about. You might want to go work for PCGamer, I'm sure Dan would enjoy working with a like-minded individual.
- This pseudo-intellectual post was brought to you by frankbg. -
Lets see, I have the counterstrike case infront of me. It says first person shooter. Interesting. There also appear to be deathmatches... interesting. Just because it's only played in teams competitively doesn't mean it's a team FPS. As for the camping comment, how is it sad? is it not the truth? How would you 1v1 if you had to? "PROXY NADE AND FLANK PEWPEW".
I have a friend who plays CS competitively in one of the top three Dutch clans. I'm not saying he could take on any of the pro clans but he does compete in Lans and he told me they have a set number of strategies per map. Also, I'd like to see your name on lan/tournament sheets. See if you're actually half as pro as you are insinuating you are.
As for communication, "HE'S BEHIND THE TREE" hardly qualifies as anything. And claiming 75% of professional CS is communication and psychology/mind games is just outrageous, unless you're as simple minded as you look, in which case I suppose you're right.
I am indeed terrible at CS. This is because I played it twice and got bored. The CS learning curve is _ where as SC's is I and quite frankly, games like that don't interest me. Oh, and I'd rather not work for Dan Stapleface, I reckon you two would fit like a pair of shoes though. Both of you reckon you're top gosugamers and that the games you play are extremely difficult but I've never heard of either of you.
Now, back on topic then.
I'm really hoping SC2 will be enough to get the eSports scene going again. It's a little too early to say how the game will turn out (I saw some progamers play, and to be perfectly honest the game looked slow and had completely lost it's element in my eyes) but the BETA isn't even out yet so it's really too soon to tell. I thought Gom TV was doing alright though? the star invitational videos all have like 30 000 views, and that's just the English streams. I think the Korean might have more, and they're giving all the new players intro videos to build a fanbase, although I'm not sure if it's working. All we can hope really is for SC2 to be released this year and be just as fun as the original which we've come to know and love, because aslong as we do I'm fairly sure the SC scene wont die.
P.s. It's 5 A.M. sorry if I'm not making any sense lol.
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Sweden33719 Posts
The thing is that pretty much nobody can have the same kind of distinct styles that the players of yore had, the game has evolved too much and there are too many players. Oh well.
In addition, there are just so many more players to pay attention to, things just kinda get a little blurry imo.
EDIT: @Post above me who cares if the box says it's an FPS and talks about deathmatches if the game is only ever played competitively in team mode  ?
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Maybe with more differing kinds of maps we would be able to see which players are better at both high econ and low econ play.
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On May 21 2008 11:59 FrozenArbiter wrote:The thing is that pretty much nobody can have the same kind of distinct styles that the players of yore had, the game has evolved too much and there are too many players. Oh well. In addition, there are just so many more players to pay attention to, things just kinda get a little blurry imo. EDIT: @Post above me who cares if the box says it's an FPS and talks about deathmatches if the game is only ever played competitively in team mode ?
That's not the point It's a FPS. not a TEAM FPS. That was the point  Don't know if it's been said before but your name rocks by the way lol. *steals it*
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Enough with the stupid CS arguements, it has nothing to do with this.
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On May 21 2008 12:04 Tinithor wrote:
Maybe with more differing kinds of maps we would be able to see which players are better at both high econ and low econ play.
If they were to decrease the amount of minerals on a map, wouldn't it become slower and thus less fun for the main stream audience to watch? Sure some players will rush, but some will turtle in and just wait for an end game army before attacking. I'm not that experienced so I'm not sure this'll actually happen but it does seem logical to me.
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Well i don't exactly know how low econ play used to work, but it seemed like people used to find it fun and interesting to watch so i merely suggested adding maps that favored that alongside maps that favored macro play.
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On May 21 2008 11:57 Pellucidity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2008 11:08 frankbg wrote:On May 21 2008 10:55 Pellucidity wrote:On May 21 2008 10:47 frankbg wrote:On May 21 2008 10:41 Wizard wrote:On May 21 2008 10:36 frankbg wrote:On May 21 2008 07:25 gwho wrote:
"Counterstrike and Halo just don't cut it for spectators."
the reason is because it's an FPS only RTS's have the strategic depth on top of the action No. Just no. FPS's can have as much if not more strategic depth to them. Maybe not Halo but Counter-Strike sure does. The thing is those strategical things don't translate into visuals. It goes on through voice communication between teammates and a good 75% of pro-level Counter-Strike is the mind game. You're basically doing just like a SC noob saying that Starcraft is just a clickfest because it's too fast. There are many many things in high level CS that make it as competitive as SC, it's just that you have to have been competitive to know about them. No. Just no. don't even try to compare sc to a shoooter. Yeah, that's why Counter-Strike is the biggest esports WORLDWIDE while Starcraft is only big in Korea. You obviously haven't played competitive Counter-Strike therefore I don't even see how you can negate my argument. Oh and playing in a public server with horrids is not "competitive". It's like playing fastest or BGH on bnet. How is Counterstrike a mind game? It can't even be played 1v1. Or well it can but both players would camp until one GG'd. As for team-related Counterstrike. There are team SC matches aswell. Which without a doubt require more skill. I'm not saying CS takes no skill or sucks, nor am I saying I am any good at it. I'm just saying SC is on a whole other level. A level CS will never reach because it lacks depth and strategy (having 5 strategies per map does not qualify lal). You just proved your complete lack of understanding for counter-strike. It is a TEAM FPS, obviously people don't play 1v1. And the fact you say "people would just camp until one GG'd" is pretty sad (trying to stay polite here and not state what I really thought about that comment). "5 strategies per map lal" Yeah, cause you would know that right? You just said you aren't good at cs (and the way you talk about the game, we can assume you're TERRIBLE at the game), so how the hell would you know how many strats there are? Just like SC, Counterstrike went through multiple "strategic revolutions" where certain teams or generation of players have changed the way certain aspects of the game are played. But then again you wouldn't know that because you're bashing something you know jack shit about. You might want to go work for PCGamer, I'm sure Dan would enjoy working with a like-minded individual. - This pseudo-intellectual post was brought to you by frankbg. - Lets see, I have the counterstrike case infront of me. It says first person shooter. Interesting. There also appear to be deathmatches... interesting. Just because it's only played in teams competitively doesn't mean it's a team FPS. As for the camping comment, how is it sad? is it not the truth? How would you 1v1 if you had to? "PROXY NADE AND FLANK PEWPEW". I have a friend who plays CS competitively in one of the top three Dutch clans. I'm not saying he could take on any of the pro clans but he does compete in Lans and he told me they have a set number of strategies per map. Also, I'd like to see your name on lan/tournament sheets. See if you're actually half as pro as you are insinuating you are. As for communication, "HE'S BEHIND THE TREE" hardly qualifies as anything. And claiming 75% of professional CS is communication and psychology/mind games is just outrageous, unless you're as simple minded as you look, in which case I suppose you're right. I am indeed terrible at CS. This is because I played it twice and got bored. The CS learning curve is _ where as SC's is I and quite frankly, games like that don't interest me. Oh, and I'd rather not work for Dan Stapleface, I reckon you two would fit like a pair of shoes though. Both of you reckon you're top gosugamers and that the games you play are extremely difficult but I've never heard of either of you. Now, back on topic then. I'm really hoping SC2 will be enough to get the eSports scene going again. It's a little too early to say how the game will turn out (I saw some progamers play, and to be perfectly honest the game looked slow and had completely lost it's element in my eyes) but the BETA isn't even out yet so it's really too soon to tell. I thought Gom TV was doing alright though? the star invitational videos all have like 30 000 views, and that's just the English streams. I think the Korean might have more, and they're giving all the new players intro videos to build a fanbase, although I'm not sure if it's working. All we can hope really is for SC2 to be released this year and be just as fun as the original which we've come to know and love, because aslong as we do I'm fairly sure the SC scene wont die. P.s. It's 5 A.M. sorry if I'm not making any sense lol.
Your post made no sense, and admitting your terrible at CS removes any credibility your post may have had.
Lrn2typ pl0x kthxbai.
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On May 21 2008 12:28 FeArTeHsCoUrGe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2008 11:57 Pellucidity wrote:On May 21 2008 11:08 frankbg wrote:On May 21 2008 10:55 Pellucidity wrote:On May 21 2008 10:47 frankbg wrote:On May 21 2008 10:41 Wizard wrote:On May 21 2008 10:36 frankbg wrote:On May 21 2008 07:25 gwho wrote:
"Counterstrike and Halo just don't cut it for spectators."
the reason is because it's an FPS only RTS's have the strategic depth on top of the action No. Just no. FPS's can have as much if not more strategic depth to them. Maybe not Halo but Counter-Strike sure does. The thing is those strategical things don't translate into visuals. It goes on through voice communication between teammates and a good 75% of pro-level Counter-Strike is the mind game. You're basically doing just like a SC noob saying that Starcraft is just a clickfest because it's too fast. There are many many things in high level CS that make it as competitive as SC, it's just that you have to have been competitive to know about them. No. Just no. don't even try to compare sc to a shoooter. Yeah, that's why Counter-Strike is the biggest esports WORLDWIDE while Starcraft is only big in Korea. You obviously haven't played competitive Counter-Strike therefore I don't even see how you can negate my argument. Oh and playing in a public server with horrids is not "competitive". It's like playing fastest or BGH on bnet. How is Counterstrike a mind game? It can't even be played 1v1. Or well it can but both players would camp until one GG'd. As for team-related Counterstrike. There are team SC matches aswell. Which without a doubt require more skill. I'm not saying CS takes no skill or sucks, nor am I saying I am any good at it. I'm just saying SC is on a whole other level. A level CS will never reach because it lacks depth and strategy (having 5 strategies per map does not qualify lal). You just proved your complete lack of understanding for counter-strike. It is a TEAM FPS, obviously people don't play 1v1. And the fact you say "people would just camp until one GG'd" is pretty sad (trying to stay polite here and not state what I really thought about that comment). "5 strategies per map lal" Yeah, cause you would know that right? You just said you aren't good at cs (and the way you talk about the game, we can assume you're TERRIBLE at the game), so how the hell would you know how many strats there are? Just like SC, Counterstrike went through multiple "strategic revolutions" where certain teams or generation of players have changed the way certain aspects of the game are played. But then again you wouldn't know that because you're bashing something you know jack shit about. You might want to go work for PCGamer, I'm sure Dan would enjoy working with a like-minded individual. - This pseudo-intellectual post was brought to you by frankbg. - Lets see, I have the counterstrike case infront of me. It says first person shooter. Interesting. There also appear to be deathmatches... interesting. Just because it's only played in teams competitively doesn't mean it's a team FPS. As for the camping comment, how is it sad? is it not the truth? How would you 1v1 if you had to? "PROXY NADE AND FLANK PEWPEW". I have a friend who plays CS competitively in one of the top three Dutch clans. I'm not saying he could take on any of the pro clans but he does compete in Lans and he told me they have a set number of strategies per map. Also, I'd like to see your name on lan/tournament sheets. See if you're actually half as pro as you are insinuating you are. As for communication, "HE'S BEHIND THE TREE" hardly qualifies as anything. And claiming 75% of professional CS is communication and psychology/mind games is just outrageous, unless you're as simple minded as you look, in which case I suppose you're right. I am indeed terrible at CS. This is because I played it twice and got bored. The CS learning curve is _ where as SC's is I and quite frankly, games like that don't interest me. Oh, and I'd rather not work for Dan Stapleface, I reckon you two would fit like a pair of shoes though. Both of you reckon you're top gosugamers and that the games you play are extremely difficult but I've never heard of either of you. Now, back on topic then. I'm really hoping SC2 will be enough to get the eSports scene going again. It's a little too early to say how the game will turn out (I saw some progamers play, and to be perfectly honest the game looked slow and had completely lost it's element in my eyes) but the BETA isn't even out yet so it's really too soon to tell. I thought Gom TV was doing alright though? the star invitational videos all have like 30 000 views, and that's just the English streams. I think the Korean might have more, and they're giving all the new players intro videos to build a fanbase, although I'm not sure if it's working. All we can hope really is for SC2 to be released this year and be just as fun as the original which we've come to know and love, because aslong as we do I'm fairly sure the SC scene wont die. P.s. It's 5 A.M. sorry if I'm not making any sense lol. Your post made no sense, and admitting your terrible at CS removes any credibility your post may have had. Lrn2typ pl0x kthxbai.
oh the irony
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My English is fine and my post makes perfect sense. Your post however is rather poorly put together, and since you're attempting to "bash" me, I can only assume you are a counterstrike player, in which case, touche.
P.S. Y-O-U-R = YOUR. Y-O-U-'-R-E = YOU ARE. I just saved you tons of money on tutoring.
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On May 21 2008 12:04 Tinithor wrote:
Maybe with more differing kinds of maps we would be able to see which players are better at both high econ and low econ play.
There really isn't a good way to force "low econ" play, because high econ play > low econ play almost universally. Reducing the # of mineral patches would only cause saturation to occur earlier than normal, which even further promotes expanding. Increasing patches wouldn't change much either, as seen in maps like Baekmagogi.
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Thanks for the news!
At least this news didn't come after Starcraft 2 or else we'll have those same apocolpse predicting idiots that will say "I told you so" because it's "too easy."
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On May 21 2008 12:45 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2008 12:04 Tinithor wrote:
Maybe with more differing kinds of maps we would be able to see which players are better at both high econ and low econ play. There really isn't a good way to force "low econ" play, because high econ play > low econ play almost universally. Reducing the # of mineral patches would only cause saturation to occur earlier than normal, which even further promotes expanding. Increasing patches wouldn't change much either, as seen in maps like Baekmagogi.
Old maps like challenger and Bottleneck would do the trick maybe. They only have a few expansions, 2 easy ones on both maps I think. And either one or two expansions that wouldn't be very cost-efficient to get, thus forcing low economy games (lower than what we're used to nowadays anyways).
At Wizard - I was talking to Scourge. Should probably have quoted him but I'm getting the feeling people are getting sick of reading quotes that aren't on topic, sorry
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The one thing I'll say about this whole "SC vs CS" thing is this: comparing Starcraft to Counterstrike is like comparing chess to checkers. Sure, there can be LOTS of depth in both games, but just like in a game of checkers, CS can only have so many different "moves" and then we've basically seen it all (at least to the un-pro audience). Shoot, dodge, kill vs rush/cheese/FE/omgzrecall/dtdrop/etc...
But back on topic, Savior definitely needs to get the hell out of his slump and give the Starcraft world more glitz and glam. Bisu was doing a good job at replacing Savior, until he fucked it all up. Rock's never gonna be able to rule the Kespa rankings, but he's a pretty entertaining personality.
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I played CAL-M in 1.6... so that's probably like C+ ICCup at StarCraft (that's quite awhile ago).
IMO CS is a better spectator sport despite what some folks think, in fact I'd rather watch two pro CS teams than two SC pros any day of the week (however I'd rather play StarCraft).
Ability wise, StarCraft pros use more brain and muscle than any given entire CS team. I've never been mentally or physically exhausted after playing even a full day of CS matches. I could probably still run a marathon. I get on ICCup and play 10 SC games and I feel like I've been awake for 3 weeks. And if you try to say that I didn't play CS on a pro level and so I don't know what it would take physically or mentally, then you're kind of stupid because energy usage does not go up in that game depending on your level (strategy and aiming improves, and that's about it). Mind games come into play sometimes, but that's about equal for both games.
There's also a lot to say about being in a team vs being an individual... a lot of pro CS players in teams couldn't ever make it as individuals in the same position. Having 1/5th the pressure opposed to the whole of it is entirely different. When you go into a SC competition, you're alone. You might have someone else there that you know, but usually it's your competition. In CS you're with your buddies doing your thing, on your headsets planning strats and yelling at each other to get pumped up, and the pressure isn't even a consideration sometimes. Not to mention in SC you have the first 6 minutes of play to dwell on all the negative possibilities, while in CS it's all there happening right away, and you get many chances to fix mistakes made.
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Losers: MSL & OSL
Winners: GOMTV
GomTV had the foresight to push for a potential bigger worldwide and growing audience. GomTV cared enough to hire an English caster and air it over the internet. MSL & OSL tried to get bigger by overwhelming viewers with Starcraft, lol. MSL & OSL didn't get a rat's ass about anyone outside Korea. With that much Starcraft being shown that would mean other shows fighting for that time slot may had been killed off.
When Starcraft 2 comes out, GOMTV will be so ahead of their competition for worldwide audience.
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United States20661 Posts
Hong Jinho is the only consistently entertaining player left.
Oh, and arguably Lee Youngho Protoss Version
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I think the games are getting less exciting to watch because there's so many of them, and moreover because they're all so macro oriented. So the low-econ maps seems like a great idea to change the game a little bit. Maybe with only 5 patches or so at the nat and 8 in the main to really discourage fast expo builds. And another big factor as someone said before is that none of the players stay at the top anymore; players dominate for short times and then fade as quickly so it's really hard to cheer for anyone.
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EPT
