Starcraft Declining in Korea - Page 4

On May 21 2008 10:55 Pellucidity wrote:


How is Counterstrike a mind game? It can't even be played 1v1. Or well it can but both players would camp until one GG'd. As for team-related Counterstrike. There are team SC matches aswell. Which without a doubt require more skill.
I'm not saying CS takes no skill or sucks, nor am I saying I am any good at it. I'm just saying SC is on a whole other level. A level CS will never reach because it lacks depth and strategy (having 5 strategies per map does not qualify lal).

Actually, I will get alot of flames for this, but I have played at some of the highest levels in Counter-Strike and I will state that it requires more than SC.

On May 21 2008 07:29 Zzoram wrote:


Blizzard really is cutting it close. Releasing Starcraft 2 just as Starcraft is starting to decline, to gloriously succeed it and reinvigorate e-sports. Let's hope that they really were clever enough to have been planning this all along, because it would mean that they are seriously considering e-sports in their development. Starcraft 2 really needs to come out soon, because if Starcraft declines too far, it may be impossible to revive the e-sports scene.

On May 21 2008 11:08 moebius_string wrote:
Why do people insist on comparing disparate game genres in a futile attempt to say which one is better than the other?

On May 21 2008 11:10 FrozenArbiter wrote:
It's 4 am here, I'll read the rest of your post tomorrow but unless you've played at a very high level in SC how can you possibly say this?

On May 21 2008 11:24 Zzoram wrote:
Yes CS has skill, but nobody cares because it's not fun to watch. They aren't fun to watch in overhead, 3rd person or 1st person. Starcraft is fun to watch because of how easy it is to see strategy and battles, so it's the best e-sport, since being a sport requires spectators.

Starcraft appears to be in decline, and Starcraft 2 needs to energize the fans and bring in new ones. Blizzard hopefully knows this and is working on the solution.

On May 21 2008 11:12 frankbg wrote:


I'm not saying any game is better. I'm saying CS is as competitive and requires as much skill/dedication/practice as Starcraft. I'm also trying to rectify the fallacies repeated by some users who obviously have way too little knowledge of CS and it's competitive scene.

Both games exploded at the same time and both pioneered esports in their respective genres. Oh and by the way. The CPL founded eSports with a shooter. KeSPA actually invited the CPL founder to talk about how they pretty much invented eSports.

On May 21 2008 09:23 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
Korea needs international competition

There are 2 aspects that don't translate into visuals within CS and 1 that does. The 1 that does is obviously aiming and positionning, as well as angle play. Even that, is hard for people who don't play to notice. Good players don't just stand in random spots, they stand in the spot that gives them the optimal shooting angle on a certain spot while being covered from other angles at all times. The angle and direction in which they move is also calculated and comes from years of experience and thousands of scrims (5v5 practice games with league rules). Another thing people see but often overlook as a bit "random" is spamming (shooting walls) and grenade use. Spamming is barely ever random, only certain specific spots are spammable (just like certain spots like ledges and such in SC give you an advantage, given you know them well). You have to use sound to determine your opponent's position as well as your spamming accuracy (there are ways to tell if you hit soemone through a wall). Grenade use on the other hand is also a pretty skill-demanding thing. Try to do accurate nades 100% of the time, dodge flashbangs and never get caught with a nade out by a player who has his gun out. There are many other things that do show visually but are overlooked by non-cs players.

Teamwork is a combination of many things. Years of experience in counter-strike, playing within a team as well as the time spent with the current 5 man team you are playing with. Chemistry is easily 30-40% of the result of a competitive game. Often teams with superior individual skills will fall to a team with good chemistry. There is also practice, whether it be the strats you run or the positionning to hold certain areas. Communication is also very important within a team. The 4 other players are your ears and eyes around the rest of the map and no one will attain the highest level of play with 4 players working toghether and 1 guy going rambo by himself. Once again, within the "teamwork" side of things, I could name many other aspects that most people don't know about (boosts, angle cover, crossfires, fakes/counter-fakes, money management, reading the other team's money to predict the type of strat they will use, and the list goes on)

Individual gameplay is not your aim, but the way you think (if that makes sense). Some would call it "game sense". It's what allows a player to do his mechanics without thinking, so his mind can focus on the "mindgame". Outplaying opponents with flanks requires you to know what route is cleared (based on where your team is/was, calls from teammates as well as well as various other tells like footsteps, grenades, what they did past rounds and such). Watching your angles and certain camping spot is also vital, as well. The thing is there are so many things that factor on your play style that doesnt show on screen but goes on in your mind and can only be spotted by decent players. PLUS, you have to do all this thinking while keeping your aim focused and moving around the map (rotating to a diff bombsite on a teammates call or switching position to adapt to a certain strat the other team is pulling).

Actually, I will get alot of flames for this, but I have played at some of the highest levels in Counter-Strike and I will state that it requires more than SC. I know people who have played for 9-10 years and are merely middle-tier players (could compare to C/B on iccup). The skill gap is immense. One thing I will give to SC that puts it on the same level for me is the fact that it is easily accessible for viewers. Most things translate into visuals and anyone can understand the basics and enjoy a high level game (BOs, macro/micro, gamesense, map knowledge and tricks).

Flame away~~
(although flaming without putting a smart argument will basically prove me right)

On May 21 2008 11:34 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Uh Boxer?

Not that I don't agree with you but when talking about longevity Boxer has to be mentioned (yes, nada too).