Starcraft Declining in Korea - Page 4
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moebius_string
United States264 Posts
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frankbg
Canada335 Posts
On May 21 2008 10:55 Pellucidity wrote: How is Counterstrike a mind game? It can't even be played 1v1. Or well it can but both players would camp until one GG'd. As for team-related Counterstrike. There are team SC matches aswell. Which without a doubt require more skill. I'm not saying CS takes no skill or sucks, nor am I saying I am any good at it. I'm just saying SC is on a whole other level. A level CS will never reach because it lacks depth and strategy (having 5 strategies per map does not qualify lal). You just proved your complete lack of understanding for counter-strike. It is a TEAM FPS, obviously people don't play 1v1. And the fact you say "people would just camp until one GG'd" is pretty sad (trying to stay polite here and not state what I really thought about that comment). "5 strategies per map lal" Yeah, cause you would know that right? You just said you aren't good at cs (and the way you talk about the game, we can assume you're TERRIBLE at the game), so how the hell would you know how many strats there are? Just like SC, Counterstrike went through multiple "strategic revolutions" where certain teams or generation of players have changed the way certain aspects of the game are played. But then again you wouldn't know that because you're bashing something you know jack shit about. You might want to go work for PCGamer, I'm sure Dan would enjoy working with a like-minded individual. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Actually, I will get alot of flames for this, but I have played at some of the highest levels in Counter-Strike and I will state that it requires more than SC. It's 4 am here, I'll read the rest of your post tomorrow but unless you've played at a very high level in SC how can you possibly say this? | ||
GeneralZap
United States172 Posts
On May 21 2008 07:29 Zzoram wrote: Blizzard really is cutting it close. Releasing Starcraft 2 just as Starcraft is starting to decline, to gloriously succeed it and reinvigorate e-sports. Let's hope that they really were clever enough to have been planning this all along, because it would mean that they are seriously considering e-sports in their development. Starcraft 2 really needs to come out soon, because if Starcraft declines too far, it may be impossible to revive the e-sports scene. I disagree, I believe revealing SC2 decreased growth of Starcraft laying, but that's natural. | ||
frankbg
Canada335 Posts
On May 21 2008 11:08 moebius_string wrote: Why do people insist on comparing disparate game genres in a futile attempt to say which one is better than the other? I'm not saying any game is better. I'm saying CS is as competitive and requires as much skill/dedication/practice as Starcraft. I'm also trying to rectify the fallacies repeated by some users who obviously have way too little knowledge of CS and it's competitive scene. Both games exploded at the same time and both pioneered esports in their respective genres. Oh and by the way. The CPL founded eSports with a shooter. KeSPA actually invited the CPL founder to talk about how they pretty much invented eSports. | ||
frankbg
Canada335 Posts
On May 21 2008 11:10 FrozenArbiter wrote: It's 4 am here, I'll read the rest of your post tomorrow but unless you've played at a very high level in SC how can you possibly say this? Because Starcraft skills transfer into visuals. Therefore anyone who knows he basics of the game (BOs, macro/micro, gamesense, map knowledge, etc) can understand what's going on and who dominates who. In CS, it is very hard for an outsider to tell these kind of things. This indeed makes SC the better spectator eSports but in no way means that it requires the most skills and is the most competitive. (because then, why are there 3x more CS players than SC players and why is counterstrike THE esports worldwide while SC is only real big in korea?) The reason why SC has such a "professional" scene is because Korea is very favorable to gaming while the west doesn't have the same view on video games. Say we turn things around and CS was a hit in korea and SC worldwide. Korea with its huge marketing potential (for esports tv channel and such) would boast a CS scene that is much more "pro" than SC, yet it would only be a hit in Korea. | ||
Newbistic
China2912 Posts
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
Starcraft appears to be in decline, and Starcraft 2 needs to energize the fans and bring in new ones. Blizzard hopefully knows this and is working on the solution. | ||
Uris
United States47 Posts
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frankbg
Canada335 Posts
On May 21 2008 11:24 Zzoram wrote: Yes CS has skill, but nobody cares because it's not fun to watch. They aren't fun to watch in overhead, 3rd person or 1st person. Starcraft is fun to watch because of how easy it is to see strategy and battles, so it's the best e-sport, since being a sport requires spectators. Starcraft appears to be in decline, and Starcraft 2 needs to energize the fans and bring in new ones. Blizzard hopefully knows this and is working on the solution. You're completely right, SC is a wayyyy better spectator esport than CS. | ||
moebius_string
United States264 Posts
On May 21 2008 11:12 frankbg wrote: I'm not saying any game is better. I'm saying CS is as competitive and requires as much skill/dedication/practice as Starcraft. I'm also trying to rectify the fallacies repeated by some users who obviously have way too little knowledge of CS and it's competitive scene. Both games exploded at the same time and both pioneered esports in their respective genres. Oh and by the way. The CPL founded eSports with a shooter. KeSPA actually invited the CPL founder to talk about how they pretty much invented eSports. I'm not saying that anything you say is wrong or blaming you for starting it. I happen to watch Counterstrike matches on WCG and like it( I just wish there was a way they could make it more readable for the uninitiated). I'm just saying pitting one esport versus another is pointless since we are all on the same side. The mainstream is already closed minded as it is concerning esports. | ||
JudgeMathis
Cuba1286 Posts
On May 21 2008 09:23 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote: Korea needs international competition I would agree with that. :D | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
I'm not arguing the competitiveness of CS, but I don't really get what you are talking about, so I decided to read your post before sleeping! There are 2 aspects that don't translate into visuals within CS and 1 that does. The 1 that does is obviously aiming and positionning, as well as angle play. Even that, is hard for people who don't play to notice. Good players don't just stand in random spots, they stand in the spot that gives them the optimal shooting angle on a certain spot while being covered from other angles at all times. The angle and direction in which they move is also calculated and comes from years of experience and thousands of scrims (5v5 practice games with league rules). Another thing people see but often overlook as a bit "random" is spamming (shooting walls) and grenade use. Spamming is barely ever random, only certain specific spots are spammable (just like certain spots like ledges and such in SC give you an advantage, given you know them well). You have to use sound to determine your opponent's position as well as your spamming accuracy (there are ways to tell if you hit soemone through a wall). Grenade use on the other hand is also a pretty skill-demanding thing. Try to do accurate nades 100% of the time, dodge flashbangs and never get caught with a nade out by a player who has his gun out. There are many other things that do show visually but are overlooked by non-cs players. So this is clearly not strategical depth but skill depth that you are talking about for the most part. When he said don't compare a shooter to SC he obviously wasn't talking about the skill required to play (at least that's how I read it). Teamwork is a combination of many things. Years of experience in counter-strike, playing within a team as well as the time spent with the current 5 man team you are playing with. Chemistry is easily 30-40% of the result of a competitive game. Often teams with superior individual skills will fall to a team with good chemistry. There is also practice, whether it be the strats you run or the positionning to hold certain areas. Communication is also very important within a team. The 4 other players are your ears and eyes around the rest of the map and no one will attain the highest level of play with 4 players working toghether and 1 guy going rambo by himself. Once again, within the "teamwork" side of things, I could name many other aspects that most people don't know about (boosts, angle cover, crossfires, fakes/counter-fakes, money management, reading the other team's money to predict the type of strat they will use, and the list goes on) Individual gameplay is not your aim, but the way you think (if that makes sense). Some would call it "game sense". It's what allows a player to do his mechanics without thinking, so his mind can focus on the "mindgame". Outplaying opponents with flanks requires you to know what route is cleared (based on where your team is/was, calls from teammates as well as well as various other tells like footsteps, grenades, what they did past rounds and such). Watching your angles and certain camping spot is also vital, as well. The thing is there are so many things that factor on your play style that doesnt show on screen but goes on in your mind and can only be spotted by decent players. PLUS, you have to do all this thinking while keeping your aim focused and moving around the map (rotating to a diff bombsite on a teammates call or switching position to adapt to a certain strat the other team is pulling). A lot of this I think is inherent to any competitive (edit: and deep) game (especially a game with imperfect information) played between humans. Psychology etc. Actually, I will get alot of flames for this, but I have played at some of the highest levels in Counter-Strike and I will state that it requires more than SC. I know people who have played for 9-10 years and are merely middle-tier players (could compare to C/B on iccup). The skill gap is immense. One thing I will give to SC that puts it on the same level for me is the fact that it is easily accessible for viewers. Most things translate into visuals and anyone can understand the basics and enjoy a high level game (BOs, macro/micro, gamesense, map knowledge and tricks). Flame away~~ (although flaming without putting a smart argument will basically prove me right) Ok, I still think it's impossible for you to say that high level CS takes more than high level SC without actually playing high level SC since you can't possibly know what goes into it. Just because SC skill is more accessible to the viewer doesn't mean the crowd is going to see all that goes into an SC game while watching the screen. | ||
teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Not that I don't agree with you but when talking about longevity Boxer has to be mentioned (yes, nada too). | ||
fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On May 21 2008 11:34 FrozenArbiter wrote: Uh Boxer? Not that I don't agree with you but when talking about longevity Boxer has to be mentioned (yes, nada too). Well Boxer was only at top of KesPa ranks for about a year I think... so he wasn't really dominant after that. He's still THE emperor though, so of course he remains popular for much longer. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Yes, yes, I know the last starleague he won was in 2002, damn you all But losing 2-3 to Oov, 2-3 to Garimto, 1-3 to reach and 2-3 to anytime is no shame!! | ||
Alizee-
United States845 Posts
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Tinithor
United States1552 Posts
But for me i DO like the new guys. They don't seem boring to me. I enjoy watching Flash and Jaedong and BeSt and all these guys play. I also like to see the lesser known players play to see what they got, and wonder if maybe one day they will be near the top of the scene. Thats fun for me. Also on the subject of oversatturation, i dont really think thats an issue, people watch the games they want to watch, follow the teams and players they like, and so on just like normal sports in the US. Do you think anyone watches every baseball game that is played? No. I dont think that losing ACE and Hanbit will be too big of a hit really. (Well atleast i hope not ><) | ||
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