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On May 21 2008 07:55 Luddite wrote:
This goes against everything else I have read regarding e-sports in Korea. I mean, OK maybe hanbit is thinking of pulling the plug, but that's because they fucking suck! Didn't the last OSL set a new record for viewership? Isn't the GOM TV tournament the largest tournament ever? Aren't there more new players entering than ever? Isn't the foreign community (even us foreigners that watch Korean starcraft) continuing to grow? Didn't they just hire a full time English commentator? Didn't they just launch a minor league? Isn't the Korean navy also thinking about starting a team?
All those things, to me, signal that e sports, particularly brood wars, is here to stay.
and what about the GSL League? that hasn't even hit season one, shouldn't this be expanding even more so now?
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With the release of StarCraft II, I think things will only get better. I think (just a hunch) that organisations such as the CGS, and other e-sport organisations will pick StarCraft2 up.
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Someone mentioned this earlier.
If Starcraft is declining, its due to the lack of appealing stars who dominate for extended periods of time.
There is a reason people still cling onto an old Boxer, a very poorly performing Savior, a struggling Nada, and a declining Bisu, forgotten Reach's and Ra's, and other old classics whose names were established during the infancy stage of proleague. People have favorites. People want stars to idolize, stars who have proven their skill consistently while appealing to the masses.
Yet in Starcraft, the average peak of a pro Gamer is not even a year - maybe one or two seasons. Compare this to any physical sport, say American Basketball. Fans of Kobe have watched him develop for years, identify with him better because of it, and can root for him in all his games past and to come for years.
In Starcraft, its always risky to do such. When one sees a player dominate, intuition from watching physical sport players tells us that they should at least remain strong for years to come. So far, Nada is the only one satisfying this criteria. All one has to do is look at Savior to see that such is not truly the case for Starcraft.
Starcraft is highly dynamic. Reigns of dominance are too short; players come and go so fast, and so many games are played, that its hard to continue to watch the eSport without losing interest faster than one would lose interest in a physical sport. Who are the top players now? Jaedong? He didn't even qualify for the OSL. Stork? He's finally on the decline having choked in so many important matches. Flash? Yes he is strong now, yet Starcraft's history is absolute, and fans will once again fear deprived of the need for a star when Flash inevitably falls like the greats before him.
At the rate Starcraft is going, all the old, personable pros will die, and we will be left with nothing more than a generation of Minds, MenSols, and Luxury's ; players with skill, but no lasting attribute which makes them immortal.
Notice the above problem is only truly apparent in the very competitive Korean pro scene. Mondragon has been a top international competitor for quite a while. Even Warcraft III pros such as Grubby, ToD, and Sky have had fairly long, extensive reigns when compared to Starcraft. Its always hard to believe in a sport when all your favorites slump after two seasons and NEVER made a comeback. Yet, that is what Starcraft is becoming.
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On May 22 2008 15:58 FeArTeHsCoUrGe wrote:
Someone mentioned this earlier.
If Starcraft is declining, its due to the lack of appealing stars who dominate for extended periods of time.
There is a reason people still cling onto an old Boxer, a very poorly performing Savior, a struggling Nada, and a declining Bisu, forgotten Reach's and Ra's, and other old classics whose names were established during the infancy stage of proleague. People have favorites. People want stars to idolize, stars who have proven their skill consistently while appealing to the masses.
Yet in Starcraft, the average peak of a pro Gamer is not even a year - maybe one or two seasons. Compare this to any physical sport, say American Basketball. Fans of Kobe have watched him develop for years, identify with him better because of it, and can root for him in all his games past and to come for years.
In Starcraft, its always risky to do such. When one sees a player dominate, intuition from watching physical sport players tells us that they should at least remain strong for years to come. So far, Nada is the only one satisfying this criteria. All one has to do is look at Savior to see that such is not truly the case for Starcraft.
Starcraft is highly dynamic. Reigns of dominance are too short; players come and go so fast, and so many games are played, that its hard to continue to watch the eSport without losing interest faster than one would lose interest in a physical sport. Who are the top players now? Jaedong? He didn't even qualify for the OSL. Stork? He's finally on the decline having choked in so many important matches. Flash? Yes he is strong now, yet Starcraft's history is absolute, and fans will once again fear deprived of the need for a star when Flash inevitably falls like the greats before him.
At the rate Starcraft is going, all the old, personable pros will die, and we will be left with nothing more than a generation of Minds, MenSols, and Luxury's ; players with skill, but no lasting attribute which makes them immortal.
Notice the above problem is only truly apparent in the very competitive Korean pro scene. Mondragon has been a top international competitor for quite a while. Even Warcraft III pros such as Grubby, ToD, and Sky have had fairly long, extensive reigns when compared to Starcraft. Its always hard to believe in a sport when all your favorites slump after two seasons and NEVER made a comeback. Yet, that is what Starcraft is becoming.
WHAT THE FUCK. do you even know what makes starcraft a successful e-sport?
i will make you a list:
1) competitive sport - no one likes a player taking place for all the other progamers
2) fans for specific player - wcg documentary of 2005 go watch it and learn. havent you heard of clubs of fans supporting a specific player
3) boxer - boxer didnt win always but was and is the superstar of starcraft even when having a hard time
4) unique way of win - a progamer wins by its own merits. no luck based referees. no stupid luck based rules like poker. etc.
i could really go on here with reasons that make e-sports as big as it is.
what i am trying to say is that you are just so damn wrong. what do you think progaming is anyways. a place where people gather to see. one fucking and only player dominating others. is that really what you think it is. for gods sake you make me register to answer your idea. geez..
and to the creator of this bad title topic.
i will smile at your title and your idea for this topic. everyday that passes and e-sports is still on tv.
every day e-sports continues to bring tournaments. excellent moments are lived and experience. etc etc. every damn 1 one more day e-sports continues to show osl msl and whatnot tastelessandgsi. every damn day.
i will smile at your "e-sports is dying omfgz lolz!!oneoneon"
every damn day it continues to give us their fans such joy and excitement GO OSL GO MSL GO GOMTV
oh by the way i forgot.. have you ever heard LIVE FOR THE SWARM in zerg? the zerg scourge maybe dont say it but damn it means it. starcraft is full of this kind of things. and thats nice.
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On May 22 2008 15:58 FeArTeHsCoUrGe wrote:Show nested quote +Starcraft is highly dynamic. Reigns of dominance are too short; players come and go so fast, and so many games are played, that its hard to continue to watch the eSport without losing interest faster than one would lose interest in a physical sport. The amount of games played may be causing burnout and a sort of artificial plateau that players reach must faster than if they played less games and had time to reinvent their game. Show nested quote + Notice the above problem is only truly apparent in the very competitive Korean pro scene. Mondragon has been a top international competitor for quite a while. Even Warcraft III pros such as Grubby, ToD, and Sky have had fairly long, extensive reigns when compared to Starcraft. Could be unlike western players, these guys have an abundance of time to study the game to an almost mathematical level I suppose and play the game in a way that is efficient for gaining wins, but is tedious as hell to watch and play against. Show nested quote + Starcraft, its always risky to do such. When one sees a player dominate, intuition from watching physical sport players tells us that they should at least remain strong for years to come. So far, Nada is the only one satisfying this criteria. All one has to do is look at Savior to see that such is not truly the case for Starcraft. Using a keyboard and a mouse is 2 dimensional when dealing with conventional sports which use the entire body. Perhaps this allows more players to make up for skill with dexterity and rote memorization;thus leading to less players being able to stay the king of the hill for any period of time. Computer interfaces are still quite crude and by extension game interfaces. I think we have a long way to go before interfaces become an extension of the human body,but your point is well taken. Very well thought out post that summed up many observations made here.
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yeah, this thread kind of died as soon as the OP decided to put it in the SC2 forum
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Certain posts on this forum need more active moderation.
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Bring back Proleague winner stays on like MSL Teamleague. All kills were fantastic yo
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On May 22 2008 17:00 e-sportspower wrote:
WHAT THE FUCK. do you even know what makes starcraft a successful e-sport?
i will make you a list:
1) competitive sport - no one likes a player taking place for all the other progamers
2) fans for specific player - wcg documentary of 2005 go watch it and learn. havent you heard of clubs of fans supporting a specific player
3) boxer - boxer didnt win always but was and is the superstar of starcraft even when having a hard time
4) unique way of win - a progamer wins by its own merits. no luck based referees. no stupid luck based rules like poker. etc.
i could really go on here with reasons that make e-sports as big as it is.
what i am trying to say is that you are just so damn wrong. what do you think progaming is anyways. a place where people gather to see. one fucking and only player dominating others. is that really what you think it is. for gods sake you make me register to answer your idea. geez..
and to the creator of this bad title topic.
i will smile at your title and your idea for this topic. everyday that passes and e-sports is still on tv.
every day e-sports continues to bring tournaments. excellent moments are lived and experience. etc etc. every damn 1 one more day e-sports continues to show osl msl and whatnot tastelessandgsi. every damn day.
i will smile at your "e-sports is dying omfgz lolz!!oneoneon"
every damn day it continues to give us their fans such joy and excitement GO OSL GO MSL GO GOMTV
oh by the way i forgot.. have you ever heard LIVE FOR THE SWARM in zerg? the zerg scourge maybe dont say it but damn it means it. starcraft is full of this kind of things. and thats nice.
From reading FeArTeHsCoUrGe's post, I'm kind of sure he knows what makes Starcraft a popular eSport. Same with the OP. The OP did not say eSport is dying. He is reporting that it declining in Korea or rather stagnant. FeArTeHsCoUrGe's post makes an excellent comparison with sports. No need to sound condescending when you fail to address any of his thoughts while going on a tangent.
I worry about the future of eSports. Truly, I do. It's troubling when some of its fan can't read.
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The failure of Hanbit has nothing to do with the popularity of E-sports related to Starcraft in Korea. Hanbit failed with their other highly invested projects bringing titles such as Hell gates in London which has poor popularity in the Korean market. Hence their failure to finance their Starcraft team has nothing to do with a supposedly 'declining' interest in the game. The title is quite misleading.
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On May 22 2008 17:00 e-sportspower wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 15:58 FeArTeHsCoUrGe wrote:
Someone mentioned this earlier.
If Starcraft is declining, its due to the lack of appealing stars who dominate for extended periods of time.
There is a reason people still cling onto an old Boxer, a very poorly performing Savior, a struggling Nada, and a declining Bisu, forgotten Reach's and Ra's, and other old classics whose names were established during the infancy stage of proleague. People have favorites. People want stars to idolize, stars who have proven their skill consistently while appealing to the masses.
Yet in Starcraft, the average peak of a pro Gamer is not even a year - maybe one or two seasons. Compare this to any physical sport, say American Basketball. Fans of Kobe have watched him develop for years, identify with him better because of it, and can root for him in all his games past and to come for years.
In Starcraft, its always risky to do such. When one sees a player dominate, intuition from watching physical sport players tells us that they should at least remain strong for years to come. So far, Nada is the only one satisfying this criteria. All one has to do is look at Savior to see that such is not truly the case for Starcraft.
Starcraft is highly dynamic. Reigns of dominance are too short; players come and go so fast, and so many games are played, that its hard to continue to watch the eSport without losing interest faster than one would lose interest in a physical sport. Who are the top players now? Jaedong? He didn't even qualify for the OSL. Stork? He's finally on the decline having choked in so many important matches. Flash? Yes he is strong now, yet Starcraft's history is absolute, and fans will once again fear deprived of the need for a star when Flash inevitably falls like the greats before him.
At the rate Starcraft is going, all the old, personable pros will die, and we will be left with nothing more than a generation of Minds, MenSols, and Luxury's ; players with skill, but no lasting attribute which makes them immortal.
Notice the above problem is only truly apparent in the very competitive Korean pro scene. Mondragon has been a top international competitor for quite a while. Even Warcraft III pros such as Grubby, ToD, and Sky have had fairly long, extensive reigns when compared to Starcraft. Its always hard to believe in a sport when all your favorites slump after two seasons and NEVER made a comeback. Yet, that is what Starcraft is becoming. WHAT THE FUCK. do you even know what makes starcraft a successful e-sport? i will make you a list: 1) competitive sport - no one likes a player taking place for all the other progamers 2) fans for specific player - wcg documentary of 2005 go watch it and learn. havent you heard of clubs of fans supporting a specific player 3) boxer - boxer didnt win always but was and is the superstar of starcraft even when having a hard time 4) unique way of win - a progamer wins by its own merits. no luck based referees. no stupid luck based rules like poker. etc. i could really go on here with reasons that make e-sports as big as it is. what i am trying to say is that you are just so damn wrong. what do you think progaming is anyways. a place where people gather to see. one fucking and only player dominating others. is that really what you think it is. for gods sake you make me register to answer your idea. geez.. and to the creator of this bad title topic. i will smile at your title and your idea for this topic. everyday that passes and e-sports is still on tv. every day e-sports continues to bring tournaments. excellent moments are lived and experience. etc etc. every damn 1 one more day e-sports continues to show osl msl and whatnot tastelessandgsi. every damn day. i will smile at your "e-sports is dying omfgz lolz!!oneoneon" every damn day it continues to give us their fans such joy and excitement GO OSL GO MSL GO GOMTV oh by the way i forgot.. have you ever heard LIVE FOR THE SWARM in zerg? the zerg scourge maybe dont say it but damn it means it. starcraft is full of this kind of things. and thats nice.
Carlo?
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On May 22 2008 17:00 e-sportspower wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 15:58 FeArTeHsCoUrGe wrote:
Someone mentioned this earlier.
If Starcraft is declining, its due to the lack of appealing stars who dominate for extended periods of time.
There is a reason people still cling onto an old Boxer, a very poorly performing Savior, a struggling Nada, and a declining Bisu, forgotten Reach's and Ra's, and other old classics whose names were established during the infancy stage of proleague. People have favorites. People want stars to idolize, stars who have proven their skill consistently while appealing to the masses.
Yet in Starcraft, the average peak of a pro Gamer is not even a year - maybe one or two seasons. Compare this to any physical sport, say American Basketball. Fans of Kobe have watched him develop for years, identify with him better because of it, and can root for him in all his games past and to come for years.
In Starcraft, its always risky to do such. When one sees a player dominate, intuition from watching physical sport players tells us that they should at least remain strong for years to come. So far, Nada is the only one satisfying this criteria. All one has to do is look at Savior to see that such is not truly the case for Starcraft.
Starcraft is highly dynamic. Reigns of dominance are too short; players come and go so fast, and so many games are played, that its hard to continue to watch the eSport without losing interest faster than one would lose interest in a physical sport. Who are the top players now? Jaedong? He didn't even qualify for the OSL. Stork? He's finally on the decline having choked in so many important matches. Flash? Yes he is strong now, yet Starcraft's history is absolute, and fans will once again fear deprived of the need for a star when Flash inevitably falls like the greats before him.
At the rate Starcraft is going, all the old, personable pros will die, and we will be left with nothing more than a generation of Minds, MenSols, and Luxury's ; players with skill, but no lasting attribute which makes them immortal.
Notice the above problem is only truly apparent in the very competitive Korean pro scene. Mondragon has been a top international competitor for quite a while. Even Warcraft III pros such as Grubby, ToD, and Sky have had fairly long, extensive reigns when compared to Starcraft. Its always hard to believe in a sport when all your favorites slump after two seasons and NEVER made a comeback. Yet, that is what Starcraft is becoming. WHAT THE FUCK. do you even know what makes starcraft a successful e-sport? i will make you a list: 1) competitive sport - no one likes a player taking place for all the other progamers 2) fans for specific player - wcg documentary of 2005 go watch it and learn. havent you heard of clubs of fans supporting a specific player 3) boxer - boxer didnt win always but was and is the superstar of starcraft even when having a hard time 4) unique way of win - a progamer wins by its own merits. no luck based referees. no stupid luck based rules like poker. etc. i could really go on here with reasons that make e-sports as big as it is. what i am trying to say is that you are just so damn wrong. what do you think progaming is anyways. a place where people gather to see. one fucking and only player dominating others. is that really what you think it is. for gods sake you make me register to answer your idea. geez.. and to the creator of this bad title topic. i will smile at your title and your idea for this topic. everyday that passes and e-sports is still on tv. every day e-sports continues to bring tournaments. excellent moments are lived and experience. etc etc. every damn 1 one more day e-sports continues to show osl msl and whatnot tastelessandgsi. every damn day. i will smile at your "e-sports is dying omfgz lolz!!oneoneon" every damn day it continues to give us their fans such joy and excitement GO OSL GO MSL GO GOMTV oh by the way i forgot.. have you ever heard LIVE FOR THE SWARM in zerg? the zerg scourge maybe dont say it but damn it means it. starcraft is full of this kind of things. and thats nice.
In the last second before I submitted my post, I changed the sentence in my first paragraph from
"If Starcraft is declining (which I highly doubt),"
by removing the bold part for sake of argument and clarity, whether or not I agree Starcraft is in the decline or not.
However, your illiterate post just boggles my mind.
On May 22 2008 17:00 e-sportspower wrote:
2) fans for specific player - wcg documentary of 2005 go watch it and learn. havent you heard of clubs of fans supporting a specific player
3) boxer - boxer didnt win always but was and is the superstar of starcraft even when having a hard time
This is what my entire post was about. I mentioned how these aspects are huge parts of Starcraft, and how if Starcraft is declining, its because these aspects are slowly dying away or becoming less appealing. I have no idea why you would list such points, leading me to conclude you didn't even read my post, however right or wrong it may be. Idiot.
I would continue to shut you down, but then I saw this:
On May 22 2008 17:00 e-sportspower wrote:
oh by the way i forgot.. have you ever heard LIVE FOR THE SWARM in zerg? the zerg scourge maybe dont say it but damn it means it. starcraft is full of this kind of things. and thats nice.
And then there is the fact that you created an account just to respond to a simple opinion and shut down the OP. Go away troll.
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I will like to mention that I am 100% rooting for GomTV. Even if Starcraft is slightly declining in Korea, the international appeal has never been stronger (as evident by our very own TSL league).
And I'm sure we all await to see how Starcraft II will affect the proscene in Korea. I have no doubt it will blossom everywhere else.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On May 22 2008 22:11 EvoChamber wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 17:00 e-sportspower wrote:On May 22 2008 15:58 FeArTeHsCoUrGe wrote:
Someone mentioned this earlier.
If Starcraft is declining, its due to the lack of appealing stars who dominate for extended periods of time.
There is a reason people still cling onto an old Boxer, a very poorly performing Savior, a struggling Nada, and a declining Bisu, forgotten Reach's and Ra's, and other old classics whose names were established during the infancy stage of proleague. People have favorites. People want stars to idolize, stars who have proven their skill consistently while appealing to the masses.
Yet in Starcraft, the average peak of a pro Gamer is not even a year - maybe one or two seasons. Compare this to any physical sport, say American Basketball. Fans of Kobe have watched him develop for years, identify with him better because of it, and can root for him in all his games past and to come for years.
In Starcraft, its always risky to do such. When one sees a player dominate, intuition from watching physical sport players tells us that they should at least remain strong for years to come. So far, Nada is the only one satisfying this criteria. All one has to do is look at Savior to see that such is not truly the case for Starcraft.
Starcraft is highly dynamic. Reigns of dominance are too short; players come and go so fast, and so many games are played, that its hard to continue to watch the eSport without losing interest faster than one would lose interest in a physical sport. Who are the top players now? Jaedong? He didn't even qualify for the OSL. Stork? He's finally on the decline having choked in so many important matches. Flash? Yes he is strong now, yet Starcraft's history is absolute, and fans will once again fear deprived of the need for a star when Flash inevitably falls like the greats before him.
At the rate Starcraft is going, all the old, personable pros will die, and we will be left with nothing more than a generation of Minds, MenSols, and Luxury's ; players with skill, but no lasting attribute which makes them immortal.
Notice the above problem is only truly apparent in the very competitive Korean pro scene. Mondragon has been a top international competitor for quite a while. Even Warcraft III pros such as Grubby, ToD, and Sky have had fairly long, extensive reigns when compared to Starcraft. Its always hard to believe in a sport when all your favorites slump after two seasons and NEVER made a comeback. Yet, that is what Starcraft is becoming. WHAT THE FUCK. do you even know what makes starcraft a successful e-sport? i will make you a list: 1) competitive sport - no one likes a player taking place for all the other progamers 2) fans for specific player - wcg documentary of 2005 go watch it and learn. havent you heard of clubs of fans supporting a specific player 3) boxer - boxer didnt win always but was and is the superstar of starcraft even when having a hard time 4) unique way of win - a progamer wins by its own merits. no luck based referees. no stupid luck based rules like poker. etc. i could really go on here with reasons that make e-sports as big as it is. what i am trying to say is that you are just so damn wrong. what do you think progaming is anyways. a place where people gather to see. one fucking and only player dominating others. is that really what you think it is. for gods sake you make me register to answer your idea. geez.. and to the creator of this bad title topic. i will smile at your title and your idea for this topic. everyday that passes and e-sports is still on tv. every day e-sports continues to bring tournaments. excellent moments are lived and experience. etc etc. every damn 1 one more day e-sports continues to show osl msl and whatnot tastelessandgsi. every damn day. i will smile at your "e-sports is dying omfgz lolz!!oneoneon" every damn day it continues to give us their fans such joy and excitement GO OSL GO MSL GO GOMTV oh by the way i forgot.. have you ever heard LIVE FOR THE SWARM in zerg? the zerg scourge maybe dont say it but damn it means it. starcraft is full of this kind of things. and thats nice. Carlo?
I lol'ed, that's for sure.
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Do the mods have the power to move threads to another topic? It'd be great if the CS posts could just be moved to their own threads. I mean, I wanted to read about the OP, but it's kinda disheartening with all the off topic stuff 
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Hmm, I wonder what is beating Starcraft in ratings.
I don't think all of it is the fault of the progamers. Something that hasn't been mentioned is the personality of the crowd/fans. I've heard that the fans always hide their faces because they don't want to be seen ditching school, or similar reasons to that. That's understandable, but even so, I think that by doing that, it gives off an impression that being a fan is not something to be proud of, perhaps even something that is looked down upon? I know they go through alot of work making the cheerfuls and posters and preparing gifts and stuff, but the whole "word of mouth" thing is pretty powerful. If it's not something you can freely talk to people about, that limits the amount of popularity it can get.
I kind of assumed some things there, so please correct me if any of it is wrong.
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Every year they say StarCraft is going to die soon, and every year it keeps living.
Necessity is the mother of invention. I believe that whatever obstacle StarCraft may face there will be someone to help overcome it. StarCraft will never die. StarCraft is the Chess of the information technology age. The perfect, inarguably irreplaceable original and favourite in the hearts of all those who played it competitively. I can see StarCraft never dying in my lifetime.
StarCraft 2 will be a fun game, but it won't destroy SC 1. SC 1 and SC 2 are like oranges and apples. 3D games will always be different, even in RTS, than the 2D classics. I mean, just look at SC2 and tell me you could choose one over the other? It'd come down to personal taste, not superiority. Another way to think of it, is ask yourself if the old side scrolling classics on SNES are any less fun than the FPS games on modern consoles? They aren't. They're just new and different.
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the macro play argument is weak IMO
thats been the game for years now, IMO there are way too many games. With the amount of players playing its also difficult for people to stay on top for a long time, I mean you could get bounced from a league and then be stuck in the challenge league and such for a year. Players are all just insanely good with early game builds now that its difficult to go away from the norm unless its all in cheese. With the way mutas can be controlled now, 1 base play is suicide vs zerg ( I mean its been tough to do for years, but it could be done if they didnt expand, but now with mutas your shit can get raped HARD) The maps are kind of eh sometimes too, and it seems that in a lot of mirror MU's its a coin flip because the players are so good 1 small mistake and you basically cannot come back.
edit:
btw if people are losing interest in korea thats sort of a shock to me.
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My humble opinion is....
Starcraft will grow after the retire of ACE.
Why? Because if Boxer lives the army, ACE will no longer exists. BUT THE EMPEROR WILL BE BACK!!!!!! He will just rejoin SKT and there your have the recepie to an awesome new starcraft chapter.
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EPT
