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Northern Ireland25047 Posts
On June 08 2025 02:51 dedede wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2025 17:21 onPHYRE wrote:On June 07 2025 13:47 dedede wrote:On June 07 2025 11:27 onPHYRE wrote:On June 06 2025 17:36 dedede wrote:On June 06 2025 17:13 onPHYRE wrote:On June 06 2025 17:01 Drahkn wrote:
All this work and you fail to add the simple fact that Serral dominated in an Era when SC2 competitiveness had declined for a long time. Serral did not win a S tier tournament against Koreans until mid/late 2018. )Serral and Maru are exactly the same age BTW)
Maru has won S tier tournaments since 2012.
The same year Serral gets his first "big" win if you can call it that, Maru wins World Electronic Sports Games 2018 , where he won 200000$ for first place!.
From 2018 the games competitiveness declines massively, and when Serral becomes without doubt the best player in the world some years later the game is already pretty dead compared to what it used to be ( not calling the game dead calm down don't ban me).
Maru's consistency since 2012 is unmatched, and from his big 200000dollar tournament win in 2018 , you can easily tell he has dialed it back has not had the same hunger since.
We can also not forget to add that Serral plays Zerg, let's just say historically a VERY strong race. Maru barely won anything pre-2018 as well. Just because someone started earlier doesn’t make them better. Serral is head and shoulders above Maru in virtually every statistical measure (which this article points out even if some parts are flawed). Serral wins at such a higher clip than Maru and Maru loses to Serral (and barely ever wins international competitions where the top players are present) so often that to make the argument at this point is absurd. False. Maru won OSL in 2013 and SSL in 2015 and was MVP in 2015-2016 Proleague. Did you ever watch games back then? I have been watching since Fruitdealer won the first GSL.. What are you even arguing here? You arbitrarily pick 2018 as some big decline despite the article having multiple sections proving that is incorrect and then you list 2 individual tournaments Maru won in an 8 year span. You are basically making my point for me. Maru barely won anything prior to 2018 (I never said he didn’t win anything). That’s literally averaging 1 s tier tournament win every 4 years. Even if you want to start at 2013 instead of 2010, Maru winning 2 tournaments and getting some MVP award over the span of 5 years is hardly a long list of accomplishments. Serral was doing this 3 times a year in his prime. Wow, it’s clear you struggle with reading comprehension and love making false claims. (1) “You arbitrarily pick 2018 as some big decline despite the article having multiple sections proving that is incorrect.” When exactly did I claim 2018 was the start of a major decline? Please point that out. If anything is arbitrary it's all the weights in OP. (2) If you’ve really been following the scene since 2010, are you seriously going to deny that the KeSPA era was the most competitive period in SC2 history? And claiming “Maru barely won anything before 2018” is complete bs since he was arguably a top 2 Terran in HoTS, if not the best. (3) “Serral was doing this 3 times a year in his prime.” You mean to say Serral won 6 actual S-tier events and earned 2 MVPs in S-tier team leagues? Let’s assume the competitive level from 2020 to 2025 was on par with 2015. Now name one year he achieved everything you’re listing. And if you're counting stuff like HomeStory Cup or TSL as S-tier, then honestly, I don’t know what to tell you. Maru's prime in 2018 with 3 GSL titles and a WESG win is the most accomplished single year by any player. 2018 is the year Serral started dominating. What other year would you be referring to? I was also stating this year because it was referenced by the original poster I responded to. Either way, I assure you my reading comprehension is just fine. The majority of the community disagrees with you (multiple polls show Serral being selected as the GOAT by about 60-70% of the community including one here on TL around when the article first came out).. so you can sit here and argue with me about it or just use logic. 90%+ of Maru’s accomplishments have come in the same era as Serral and they pale in comparison. Comparing a WESG with the weak competition it had to a Homestory cup and acting like it’s somehow better because of the location/name attached to it is ridiculous. There were 4-5 good players and then a bunch of no names. The average offline weekly had more competition. I don’t know how anyone can defend that position. Liquipedia clearly defines what it considers S tier tournaments. Counting individual performances Serral is up 28-19. If you need a year to look at where he won “6 actual S-tier events,” just look at 2018. Please keep in mind we are going off of what TL is saying was S-tier and not what you made up in your head to do mental gymnastics. Serral 1st place (S-tier only) 2018 WCS Leipzig 2018 WCS Austin 2018 WCS Valencia 2018 GSL vs The World 2018 WCS Montreal 2018 HS Cup 18 2018 WCS Global Finals How many world championships does Maru have again? Serral won 7 S-tiers in just that one year. 2 over 8 years is laughable as a measure of a GOAT. While KR had dedicated team leagues the scene outside of this was limited. That being said Serral has represented Finland or “The World” multiple times with a ridiculous win rate. Maru has such a bad win rate outside of KR compared to Serral it’s like comparing the 2007 Patriots to a HS team. It’s almost as bad as stating Maru was a top 2 Terran in HoTS. Both Inno and TaeJa were clearly better and there are certainly arguments to be made for ByuN (who actually won a world title in this era) and Mvp. LMAO, counting all those 2018 WCS wins where his finals opponents were Has, MaNa, Special, and just-got-into-the-scene Reynor whom he barely beat 4:3 is just hilarious. I don’t think I need to argue with you anymore lol. Just leave this post up as a monument to your own self-humiliation. ‘While KR had dedicated team leagues the scene outside of this was limited’ oh right, that must be why he only started looking good two years after KeSPA disbanded and Blizzard introduced region lock to protect foreigners. Then what was his win rate vs korean from 2010–2017? Must’ve been 100%, since he didn’t even get to play them, hard to lose if you never qualify huh? And calling HSC S-tier? That’s comedy. I’m not even going to bother at this point, lol. Also, the fact that you still won’t admit you mistook me for the original post you referred to just shows how you handle real arguments — either by making things up like ‘Maru didn’t win much in HotS’ (when he was the best Terran and Serral wasn’t even top 10 among foreigners), or by coping with nonsense like ‘WCS Circuit and HSC are S-tier like WESG and GSL because Liquipedia says so, wahhh.’ Or you just ignore your own careless claims and hope they quietly slip by. Man, I hope you don’t handle things like this in your actual job or study.
Innovation has a pretty strong claim to being the best HoTS Terran to be fair.
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On June 08 2025 05:58 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2025 02:51 dedede wrote:On June 07 2025 17:21 onPHYRE wrote:On June 07 2025 13:47 dedede wrote:On June 07 2025 11:27 onPHYRE wrote:On June 06 2025 17:36 dedede wrote:On June 06 2025 17:13 onPHYRE wrote:On June 06 2025 17:01 Drahkn wrote:
All this work and you fail to add the simple fact that Serral dominated in an Era when SC2 competitiveness had declined for a long time. Serral did not win a S tier tournament against Koreans until mid/late 2018. )Serral and Maru are exactly the same age BTW)
Maru has won S tier tournaments since 2012.
The same year Serral gets his first "big" win if you can call it that, Maru wins World Electronic Sports Games 2018 , where he won 200000$ for first place!.
From 2018 the games competitiveness declines massively, and when Serral becomes without doubt the best player in the world some years later the game is already pretty dead compared to what it used to be ( not calling the game dead calm down don't ban me).
Maru's consistency since 2012 is unmatched, and from his big 200000dollar tournament win in 2018 , you can easily tell he has dialed it back has not had the same hunger since.
We can also not forget to add that Serral plays Zerg, let's just say historically a VERY strong race. Maru barely won anything pre-2018 as well. Just because someone started earlier doesn’t make them better. Serral is head and shoulders above Maru in virtually every statistical measure (which this article points out even if some parts are flawed). Serral wins at such a higher clip than Maru and Maru loses to Serral (and barely ever wins international competitions where the top players are present) so often that to make the argument at this point is absurd. False. Maru won OSL in 2013 and SSL in 2015 and was MVP in 2015-2016 Proleague. Did you ever watch games back then? I have been watching since Fruitdealer won the first GSL.. What are you even arguing here? You arbitrarily pick 2018 as some big decline despite the article having multiple sections proving that is incorrect and then you list 2 individual tournaments Maru won in an 8 year span. You are basically making my point for me. Maru barely won anything prior to 2018 (I never said he didn’t win anything). That’s literally averaging 1 s tier tournament win every 4 years. Even if you want to start at 2013 instead of 2010, Maru winning 2 tournaments and getting some MVP award over the span of 5 years is hardly a long list of accomplishments. Serral was doing this 3 times a year in his prime. Wow, it’s clear you struggle with reading comprehension and love making false claims. (1) “You arbitrarily pick 2018 as some big decline despite the article having multiple sections proving that is incorrect.” When exactly did I claim 2018 was the start of a major decline? Please point that out. If anything is arbitrary it's all the weights in OP. (2) If you’ve really been following the scene since 2010, are you seriously going to deny that the KeSPA era was the most competitive period in SC2 history? And claiming “Maru barely won anything before 2018” is complete bs since he was arguably a top 2 Terran in HoTS, if not the best. (3) “Serral was doing this 3 times a year in his prime.” You mean to say Serral won 6 actual S-tier events and earned 2 MVPs in S-tier team leagues? Let’s assume the competitive level from 2020 to 2025 was on par with 2015. Now name one year he achieved everything you’re listing. And if you're counting stuff like HomeStory Cup or TSL as S-tier, then honestly, I don’t know what to tell you. Maru's prime in 2018 with 3 GSL titles and a WESG win is the most accomplished single year by any player. 2018 is the year Serral started dominating. What other year would you be referring to? I was also stating this year because it was referenced by the original poster I responded to. Either way, I assure you my reading comprehension is just fine. The majority of the community disagrees with you (multiple polls show Serral being selected as the GOAT by about 60-70% of the community including one here on TL around when the article first came out).. so you can sit here and argue with me about it or just use logic. 90%+ of Maru’s accomplishments have come in the same era as Serral and they pale in comparison. Comparing a WESG with the weak competition it had to a Homestory cup and acting like it’s somehow better because of the location/name attached to it is ridiculous. There were 4-5 good players and then a bunch of no names. The average offline weekly had more competition. I don’t know how anyone can defend that position. Liquipedia clearly defines what it considers S tier tournaments. Counting individual performances Serral is up 28-19. If you need a year to look at where he won “6 actual S-tier events,” just look at 2018. Please keep in mind we are going off of what TL is saying was S-tier and not what you made up in your head to do mental gymnastics. Serral 1st place (S-tier only) 2018 WCS Leipzig 2018 WCS Austin 2018 WCS Valencia 2018 GSL vs The World 2018 WCS Montreal 2018 HS Cup 18 2018 WCS Global Finals How many world championships does Maru have again? Serral won 7 S-tiers in just that one year. 2 over 8 years is laughable as a measure of a GOAT. While KR had dedicated team leagues the scene outside of this was limited. That being said Serral has represented Finland or “The World” multiple times with a ridiculous win rate. Maru has such a bad win rate outside of KR compared to Serral it’s like comparing the 2007 Patriots to a HS team. It’s almost as bad as stating Maru was a top 2 Terran in HoTS. Both Inno and TaeJa were clearly better and there are certainly arguments to be made for ByuN (who actually won a world title in this era) and Mvp. LMAO, counting all those 2018 WCS wins where his finals opponents were Has, MaNa, Special, and just-got-into-the-scene Reynor whom he barely beat 4:3 is just hilarious. I don’t think I need to argue with you anymore lol. Just leave this post up as a monument to your own self-humiliation. ‘While KR had dedicated team leagues the scene outside of this was limited’ oh right, that must be why he only started looking good two years after KeSPA disbanded and Blizzard introduced region lock to protect foreigners. Then what was his win rate vs korean from 2010–2017? Must’ve been 100%, since he didn’t even get to play them, hard to lose if you never qualify huh? And calling HSC S-tier? That’s comedy. I’m not even going to bother at this point, lol. Also, the fact that you still won’t admit you mistook me for the original post you referred to just shows how you handle real arguments — either by making things up like ‘Maru didn’t win much in HotS’ (when he was the best Terran and Serral wasn’t even top 10 among foreigners), or by coping with nonsense like ‘WCS Circuit and HSC are S-tier like WESG and GSL because Liquipedia says so, wahhh.’ Or you just ignore your own careless claims and hope they quietly slip by. Man, I hope you don’t handle things like this in your actual job or study. Innovation has a pretty strong claim to being the best HoTS Terran to be fair.
I do agree with you on that. I'd revise my statement to say that Maru was arguably the best Terran in HoTS, and at least top 2 without question.
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On June 08 2025 03:11 ShowTheLights wrote:
how is MMA not even on this conversation
GSL x2
triple crown winner
One of the only people to beat IMMvp consistently
most clutch team league player ever
As I wrote in the article, most people were dissatisfied that I did not include Mvp, Rain and Life in my article 1 year ago. It is a shit ton of work to go through all these players tournaments to look for each and every placement and grade these tournaments for the tournament score. As MMA was not called for nearly as often as the other 3 and him - on a quick look at match win rates and tournament win percentage - not being on par with the other 7, opted for leaving him out.
On June 08 2025 04:30 dedede wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2025 03:11 ShowTheLights wrote:
how is MMA not even on this conversation
GSL x2
triple crown winner
One of the only people to beat IMMvp consistently
most clutch team league player ever Because these people act like SC2 only began in late 2018, just so they can conveniently ignore how bad their GOAT was in two out of three versions of SC2
I think I gave a pretty good summary and added context and explanations that led to Serral being ahead of Maru in every single metric. Subjectively pushing era points to further Maru's case, will necessarily lead to Life distancing Maru and even INno overtaking him, depending on the influence on the multiplier. Not even speaking about Rogue, whose claim will be absolutely nullified.
Calling Serral bad at a time, when he still was attending school and being no full time pro is a notion based on... factual truth. But then you should also add that he slapped Koreans in their country as well as around the world, which no foreigner before or after him could do, once he invested his time into the game after finishing school.
There is not a single more dominant player who outperformed harder than Serral, especially over such a long period of time. The guy has an over 30% lifetime tournament participation win rate. Meaning he won basically every third tournament he participated in - counting only those with top Koreans participating. If we go by Miz' intro and only look at prime years and ignore his school years, it goes up to nearly 40%. That is completely absurd... and he did this against 2 - 3 other GOAT contenders, who themselves have better statistics than nearly all players that ever touched the game. Not a single other player is even above 26% here, while most others that perform well in this metric had only 3 years of playing, making it much easier to maintain high rates.
I still don't think people understand how insane these numbers are, even in a state of the game that was less competitive (yet at the same time had a lot less tournaments, so good players were not as dispersed as in 2011-2016 and the best of the best attended nearly all these tournaments he played in).
On June 08 2025 06:30 dedede wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2025 05:58 WombaT wrote:On June 08 2025 02:51 dedede wrote:On June 07 2025 17:21 onPHYRE wrote:On June 07 2025 13:47 dedede wrote:On June 07 2025 11:27 onPHYRE wrote:On June 06 2025 17:36 dedede wrote:On June 06 2025 17:13 onPHYRE wrote:On June 06 2025 17:01 Drahkn wrote:
All this work and you fail to add the simple fact that Serral dominated in an Era when SC2 competitiveness had declined for a long time. Serral did not win a S tier tournament against Koreans until mid/late 2018. )Serral and Maru are exactly the same age BTW)
Maru has won S tier tournaments since 2012.
The same year Serral gets his first "big" win if you can call it that, Maru wins World Electronic Sports Games 2018 , where he won 200000$ for first place!.
From 2018 the games competitiveness declines massively, and when Serral becomes without doubt the best player in the world some years later the game is already pretty dead compared to what it used to be ( not calling the game dead calm down don't ban me).
Maru's consistency since 2012 is unmatched, and from his big 200000dollar tournament win in 2018 , you can easily tell he has dialed it back has not had the same hunger since.
We can also not forget to add that Serral plays Zerg, let's just say historically a VERY strong race. Maru barely won anything pre-2018 as well. Just because someone started earlier doesn’t make them better. Serral is head and shoulders above Maru in virtually every statistical measure (which this article points out even if some parts are flawed). Serral wins at such a higher clip than Maru and Maru loses to Serral (and barely ever wins international competitions where the top players are present) so often that to make the argument at this point is absurd. False. Maru won OSL in 2013 and SSL in 2015 and was MVP in 2015-2016 Proleague. Did you ever watch games back then? I have been watching since Fruitdealer won the first GSL.. What are you even arguing here? You arbitrarily pick 2018 as some big decline despite the article having multiple sections proving that is incorrect and then you list 2 individual tournaments Maru won in an 8 year span. You are basically making my point for me. Maru barely won anything prior to 2018 (I never said he didn’t win anything). That’s literally averaging 1 s tier tournament win every 4 years. Even if you want to start at 2013 instead of 2010, Maru winning 2 tournaments and getting some MVP award over the span of 5 years is hardly a long list of accomplishments. Serral was doing this 3 times a year in his prime. Wow, it’s clear you struggle with reading comprehension and love making false claims. (1) “You arbitrarily pick 2018 as some big decline despite the article having multiple sections proving that is incorrect.” When exactly did I claim 2018 was the start of a major decline? Please point that out. If anything is arbitrary it's all the weights in OP. (2) If you’ve really been following the scene since 2010, are you seriously going to deny that the KeSPA era was the most competitive period in SC2 history? And claiming “Maru barely won anything before 2018” is complete bs since he was arguably a top 2 Terran in HoTS, if not the best. (3) “Serral was doing this 3 times a year in his prime.” You mean to say Serral won 6 actual S-tier events and earned 2 MVPs in S-tier team leagues? Let’s assume the competitive level from 2020 to 2025 was on par with 2015. Now name one year he achieved everything you’re listing. And if you're counting stuff like HomeStory Cup or TSL as S-tier, then honestly, I don’t know what to tell you. Maru's prime in 2018 with 3 GSL titles and a WESG win is the most accomplished single year by any player. 2018 is the year Serral started dominating. What other year would you be referring to? I was also stating this year because it was referenced by the original poster I responded to. Either way, I assure you my reading comprehension is just fine. The majority of the community disagrees with you (multiple polls show Serral being selected as the GOAT by about 60-70% of the community including one here on TL around when the article first came out).. so you can sit here and argue with me about it or just use logic. 90%+ of Maru’s accomplishments have come in the same era as Serral and they pale in comparison. Comparing a WESG with the weak competition it had to a Homestory cup and acting like it’s somehow better because of the location/name attached to it is ridiculous. There were 4-5 good players and then a bunch of no names. The average offline weekly had more competition. I don’t know how anyone can defend that position. Liquipedia clearly defines what it considers S tier tournaments. Counting individual performances Serral is up 28-19. If you need a year to look at where he won “6 actual S-tier events,” just look at 2018. Please keep in mind we are going off of what TL is saying was S-tier and not what you made up in your head to do mental gymnastics. Serral 1st place (S-tier only) 2018 WCS Leipzig 2018 WCS Austin 2018 WCS Valencia 2018 GSL vs The World 2018 WCS Montreal 2018 HS Cup 18 2018 WCS Global Finals How many world championships does Maru have again? Serral won 7 S-tiers in just that one year. 2 over 8 years is laughable as a measure of a GOAT. While KR had dedicated team leagues the scene outside of this was limited. That being said Serral has represented Finland or “The World” multiple times with a ridiculous win rate. Maru has such a bad win rate outside of KR compared to Serral it’s like comparing the 2007 Patriots to a HS team. It’s almost as bad as stating Maru was a top 2 Terran in HoTS. Both Inno and TaeJa were clearly better and there are certainly arguments to be made for ByuN (who actually won a world title in this era) and Mvp. LMAO, counting all those 2018 WCS wins where his finals opponents were Has, MaNa, Special, and just-got-into-the-scene Reynor whom he barely beat 4:3 is just hilarious. I don’t think I need to argue with you anymore lol. Just leave this post up as a monument to your own self-humiliation. ‘While KR had dedicated team leagues the scene outside of this was limited’ oh right, that must be why he only started looking good two years after KeSPA disbanded and Blizzard introduced region lock to protect foreigners. Then what was his win rate vs korean from 2010–2017? Must’ve been 100%, since he didn’t even get to play them, hard to lose if you never qualify huh? And calling HSC S-tier? That’s comedy. I’m not even going to bother at this point, lol. Also, the fact that you still won’t admit you mistook me for the original post you referred to just shows how you handle real arguments — either by making things up like ‘Maru didn’t win much in HotS’ (when he was the best Terran and Serral wasn’t even top 10 among foreigners), or by coping with nonsense like ‘WCS Circuit and HSC are S-tier like WESG and GSL because Liquipedia says so, wahhh.’ Or you just ignore your own careless claims and hope they quietly slip by. Man, I hope you don’t handle things like this in your actual job or study. Innovation has a pretty strong claim to being the best HoTS Terran to be fair. I do agree with you on that. I'd revise my statement to say that Maru was arguably the best Terran in HoTS, and at least top 2 without question.
MMA third?
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On June 08 2025 06:45 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2025 03:11 ShowTheLights wrote:
how is MMA not even on this conversation
GSL x2
triple crown winner
One of the only people to beat IMMvp consistently
most clutch team league player ever As I wrote in the article, most people were dissatisfied that I did not include Mvp, Rain and Life in my article 1 year ago. It is a shit ton of work to go through all these players tournaments to look for each and every placement and grade these tournaments for the tournament score. As MMA was not called for nearly as often as the other 3 and him - on a quick look at match win rates and tournament win percentage - not being on par with the other 7, opted for leaving him out. Show nested quote +On June 08 2025 04:30 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 03:11 ShowTheLights wrote:
how is MMA not even on this conversation
GSL x2
triple crown winner
One of the only people to beat IMMvp consistently
most clutch team league player ever Because these people act like SC2 only began in late 2018, just so they can conveniently ignore how bad their GOAT was in two out of three versions of SC2 I think I gave a pretty good summary and added context and explanations that led to Serral being ahead of Maru in every single metric. Subjectively pushing era points to further Maru's case, will necessarily lead to Life distancing Maru and even INno overtaking him, depending on the influence on the multiplier. Not even speaking about Rogue, whose claim will be absolutely nullified. Calling Serral bad at a time, when he still was attending school and being no full time pro is a notion based on... factual truth. But then you should also add that he slapped Koreans in their country as well as around the world, which no foreigner before or after him could do, once he invested his time into the game after finishing school. There is not a single more dominant player who outperformed harder than Serral, especially over such a long period of time. The guy has an over 30% lifetime tournament participation win rate. Meaning he won basically every third tournament he participated in - counting only those with top Koreans participating. If we go by Miz' intro and only look at prime years and ignore his school years, it goes up to nearly 40%. That is completely absurd... and he did this against 2 - 3 other GOAT contenders, who themselves have better statistics than nearly all players that ever touched the game. Not a single other player is even above 26% here, while most others that perform well in this metric had only 3 years of playing, making it much easier to maintain high rates. I still don't think people understand how insane these numbers are, even in a state of the game that was less competitive (yet at the same time had a lot less tournaments, so good players were not as dispersed as in 2011-2016 and the best of the best attended nearly all these tournaments he played in). Show nested quote +On June 08 2025 06:30 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 05:58 WombaT wrote:On June 08 2025 02:51 dedede wrote:On June 07 2025 17:21 onPHYRE wrote:On June 07 2025 13:47 dedede wrote:On June 07 2025 11:27 onPHYRE wrote:On June 06 2025 17:36 dedede wrote:On June 06 2025 17:13 onPHYRE wrote:On June 06 2025 17:01 Drahkn wrote:
All this work and you fail to add the simple fact that Serral dominated in an Era when SC2 competitiveness had declined for a long time. Serral did not win a S tier tournament against Koreans until mid/late 2018. )Serral and Maru are exactly the same age BTW)
Maru has won S tier tournaments since 2012.
The same year Serral gets his first "big" win if you can call it that, Maru wins World Electronic Sports Games 2018 , where he won 200000$ for first place!.
From 2018 the games competitiveness declines massively, and when Serral becomes without doubt the best player in the world some years later the game is already pretty dead compared to what it used to be ( not calling the game dead calm down don't ban me).
Maru's consistency since 2012 is unmatched, and from his big 200000dollar tournament win in 2018 , you can easily tell he has dialed it back has not had the same hunger since.
We can also not forget to add that Serral plays Zerg, let's just say historically a VERY strong race. Maru barely won anything pre-2018 as well. Just because someone started earlier doesn’t make them better. Serral is head and shoulders above Maru in virtually every statistical measure (which this article points out even if some parts are flawed). Serral wins at such a higher clip than Maru and Maru loses to Serral (and barely ever wins international competitions where the top players are present) so often that to make the argument at this point is absurd. False. Maru won OSL in 2013 and SSL in 2015 and was MVP in 2015-2016 Proleague. Did you ever watch games back then? I have been watching since Fruitdealer won the first GSL.. What are you even arguing here? You arbitrarily pick 2018 as some big decline despite the article having multiple sections proving that is incorrect and then you list 2 individual tournaments Maru won in an 8 year span. You are basically making my point for me. Maru barely won anything prior to 2018 (I never said he didn’t win anything). That’s literally averaging 1 s tier tournament win every 4 years. Even if you want to start at 2013 instead of 2010, Maru winning 2 tournaments and getting some MVP award over the span of 5 years is hardly a long list of accomplishments. Serral was doing this 3 times a year in his prime. Wow, it’s clear you struggle with reading comprehension and love making false claims. (1) “You arbitrarily pick 2018 as some big decline despite the article having multiple sections proving that is incorrect.” When exactly did I claim 2018 was the start of a major decline? Please point that out. If anything is arbitrary it's all the weights in OP. (2) If you’ve really been following the scene since 2010, are you seriously going to deny that the KeSPA era was the most competitive period in SC2 history? And claiming “Maru barely won anything before 2018” is complete bs since he was arguably a top 2 Terran in HoTS, if not the best. (3) “Serral was doing this 3 times a year in his prime.” You mean to say Serral won 6 actual S-tier events and earned 2 MVPs in S-tier team leagues? Let’s assume the competitive level from 2020 to 2025 was on par with 2015. Now name one year he achieved everything you’re listing. And if you're counting stuff like HomeStory Cup or TSL as S-tier, then honestly, I don’t know what to tell you. Maru's prime in 2018 with 3 GSL titles and a WESG win is the most accomplished single year by any player. 2018 is the year Serral started dominating. What other year would you be referring to? I was also stating this year because it was referenced by the original poster I responded to. Either way, I assure you my reading comprehension is just fine. The majority of the community disagrees with you (multiple polls show Serral being selected as the GOAT by about 60-70% of the community including one here on TL around when the article first came out).. so you can sit here and argue with me about it or just use logic. 90%+ of Maru’s accomplishments have come in the same era as Serral and they pale in comparison. Comparing a WESG with the weak competition it had to a Homestory cup and acting like it’s somehow better because of the location/name attached to it is ridiculous. There were 4-5 good players and then a bunch of no names. The average offline weekly had more competition. I don’t know how anyone can defend that position. Liquipedia clearly defines what it considers S tier tournaments. Counting individual performances Serral is up 28-19. If you need a year to look at where he won “6 actual S-tier events,” just look at 2018. Please keep in mind we are going off of what TL is saying was S-tier and not what you made up in your head to do mental gymnastics. Serral 1st place (S-tier only) 2018 WCS Leipzig 2018 WCS Austin 2018 WCS Valencia 2018 GSL vs The World 2018 WCS Montreal 2018 HS Cup 18 2018 WCS Global Finals How many world championships does Maru have again? Serral won 7 S-tiers in just that one year. 2 over 8 years is laughable as a measure of a GOAT. While KR had dedicated team leagues the scene outside of this was limited. That being said Serral has represented Finland or “The World” multiple times with a ridiculous win rate. Maru has such a bad win rate outside of KR compared to Serral it’s like comparing the 2007 Patriots to a HS team. It’s almost as bad as stating Maru was a top 2 Terran in HoTS. Both Inno and TaeJa were clearly better and there are certainly arguments to be made for ByuN (who actually won a world title in this era) and Mvp. LMAO, counting all those 2018 WCS wins where his finals opponents were Has, MaNa, Special, and just-got-into-the-scene Reynor whom he barely beat 4:3 is just hilarious. I don’t think I need to argue with you anymore lol. Just leave this post up as a monument to your own self-humiliation. ‘While KR had dedicated team leagues the scene outside of this was limited’ oh right, that must be why he only started looking good two years after KeSPA disbanded and Blizzard introduced region lock to protect foreigners. Then what was his win rate vs korean from 2010–2017? Must’ve been 100%, since he didn’t even get to play them, hard to lose if you never qualify huh? And calling HSC S-tier? That’s comedy. I’m not even going to bother at this point, lol. Also, the fact that you still won’t admit you mistook me for the original post you referred to just shows how you handle real arguments — either by making things up like ‘Maru didn’t win much in HotS’ (when he was the best Terran and Serral wasn’t even top 10 among foreigners), or by coping with nonsense like ‘WCS Circuit and HSC are S-tier like WESG and GSL because Liquipedia says so, wahhh.’ Or you just ignore your own careless claims and hope they quietly slip by. Man, I hope you don’t handle things like this in your actual job or study. Innovation has a pretty strong claim to being the best HoTS Terran to be fair. I do agree with you on that. I'd revise my statement to say that Maru was arguably the best Terran in HoTS, and at least top 2 without question. MMA third?
Calling Serral bad at a time, when he still was attending school and being no full time pro is a notion based on... factual truth. But then you should also add that he slapped Koreans in their country as well as around the world, which no foreigner before or after him could do, once he invested his time into the game after finishing school.
Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school.
I still don't think people understand how insane these numbers are, even in a state of the game that was less competitive
I’ll give you credit for at least acknowledging the decline in competitiveness unlike the guy above who rated WCS circuit as S-tier. Sure, Serral had an incredible 2024, even though he got stomped by Clem in the world championship. But in Maru’s 2018 he also won three GSLs when GSL was still the most competitive league, plus a WESG and then got knocked out by sOs at BlizzCon. Maru’s 2018 is just as impressive, if not more than, Serral’s run from late 2023 to mid-2024.
And going back to this quote, does that mean Soulkey is the GOAT of BW? Is Happy the GOAT of WC3? If Serral is GOAT under that logic, then Soulkey and Happy, instead of Flash and Moon, should hold those titles too. If Clem keeps winning for another year or two, does he become the GOAT next?
Edit: Actually, Flash as an example wasn't good. Let me revise my Flash question: do Flash's post-KeSPA achievements, like four ASL championships, contribute to his GOAT claim? For me, no. Even if Soulkey with his four consecutive ASL/SSL championships can continue to win as many ASL titles as possible, he still wouldn't be the GOAT.
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Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school.
No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw.
Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point...
And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell.
Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now.
To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time
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On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time
It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it.
Yes. That's my point and Serral started his career in 2012.
As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite.
No. As I said, he joined ENCE in 2013 and played his WCS in 2012. You're just trying to use 'not a full-time player' as an excuse for his lack of achievements in HoTS, but he was actively playing. In Korea the minimum age to leave school is 15, and as I mentioned, all those players including Maru, Life, and Neeb were in school (Neeb was in high school). They didn't play full-time either, but they still achieved way better success. You just want to act like he wasn't a full-time player when he was bad (which he was as active playing as Neeb) and even when he finally got better at this game it was not 2018 but 2017 when Neeb outshined him.
Again, Maru won OSL at 15 when he was in middle school. Maru and Serral are about the same age if you don't know.
Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell.
Like the guy above, go point out when I said 2018 was a major decline in terms of competitiveness? No offense but you guys all are struggling with reading comprehension. The major decline, if you ask me, started when there were no offline tournaments because of the pandemic.
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On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time
Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point...
LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race.
Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh.
"Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2.
If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time
Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation.
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Northern Ireland25047 Posts
I swear Maru with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality.
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On June 08 2025 07:06 dedede wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2025 06:45 PremoBeats wrote:On June 08 2025 03:11 ShowTheLights wrote:
how is MMA not even on this conversation
GSL x2
triple crown winner
One of the only people to beat IMMvp consistently
most clutch team league player ever As I wrote in the article, most people were dissatisfied that I did not include Mvp, Rain and Life in my article 1 year ago. It is a shit ton of work to go through all these players tournaments to look for each and every placement and grade these tournaments for the tournament score. As MMA was not called for nearly as often as the other 3 and him - on a quick look at match win rates and tournament win percentage - not being on par with the other 7, opted for leaving him out. On June 08 2025 04:30 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 03:11 ShowTheLights wrote:
how is MMA not even on this conversation
GSL x2
triple crown winner
One of the only people to beat IMMvp consistently
most clutch team league player ever Because these people act like SC2 only began in late 2018, just so they can conveniently ignore how bad their GOAT was in two out of three versions of SC2 I think I gave a pretty good summary and added context and explanations that led to Serral being ahead of Maru in every single metric. Subjectively pushing era points to further Maru's case, will necessarily lead to Life distancing Maru and even INno overtaking him, depending on the influence on the multiplier. Not even speaking about Rogue, whose claim will be absolutely nullified. Calling Serral bad at a time, when he still was attending school and being no full time pro is a notion based on... factual truth. But then you should also add that he slapped Koreans in their country as well as around the world, which no foreigner before or after him could do, once he invested his time into the game after finishing school. There is not a single more dominant player who outperformed harder than Serral, especially over such a long period of time. The guy has an over 30% lifetime tournament participation win rate. Meaning he won basically every third tournament he participated in - counting only those with top Koreans participating. If we go by Miz' intro and only look at prime years and ignore his school years, it goes up to nearly 40%. That is completely absurd... and he did this against 2 - 3 other GOAT contenders, who themselves have better statistics than nearly all players that ever touched the game. Not a single other player is even above 26% here, while most others that perform well in this metric had only 3 years of playing, making it much easier to maintain high rates. I still don't think people understand how insane these numbers are, even in a state of the game that was less competitive (yet at the same time had a lot less tournaments, so good players were not as dispersed as in 2011-2016 and the best of the best attended nearly all these tournaments he played in). On June 08 2025 06:30 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 05:58 WombaT wrote:On June 08 2025 02:51 dedede wrote:On June 07 2025 17:21 onPHYRE wrote:On June 07 2025 13:47 dedede wrote:On June 07 2025 11:27 onPHYRE wrote:On June 06 2025 17:36 dedede wrote:On June 06 2025 17:13 onPHYRE wrote:
[quote]
Maru barely won anything pre-2018 as well. Just because someone started earlier doesn’t make them better.
Serral is head and shoulders above Maru in virtually every statistical measure (which this article points out even if some parts are flawed). Serral wins at such a higher clip than Maru and Maru loses to Serral (and barely ever wins international competitions where the top players are present) so often that to make the argument at this point is absurd.
False. Maru won OSL in 2013 and SSL in 2015 and was MVP in 2015-2016 Proleague. Did you ever watch games back then? I have been watching since Fruitdealer won the first GSL.. What are you even arguing here? You arbitrarily pick 2018 as some big decline despite the article having multiple sections proving that is incorrect and then you list 2 individual tournaments Maru won in an 8 year span. You are basically making my point for me. Maru barely won anything prior to 2018 (I never said he didn’t win anything). That’s literally averaging 1 s tier tournament win every 4 years. Even if you want to start at 2013 instead of 2010, Maru winning 2 tournaments and getting some MVP award over the span of 5 years is hardly a long list of accomplishments. Serral was doing this 3 times a year in his prime. Wow, it’s clear you struggle with reading comprehension and love making false claims. (1) “You arbitrarily pick 2018 as some big decline despite the article having multiple sections proving that is incorrect.” When exactly did I claim 2018 was the start of a major decline? Please point that out. If anything is arbitrary it's all the weights in OP. (2) If you’ve really been following the scene since 2010, are you seriously going to deny that the KeSPA era was the most competitive period in SC2 history? And claiming “Maru barely won anything before 2018” is complete bs since he was arguably a top 2 Terran in HoTS, if not the best. (3) “Serral was doing this 3 times a year in his prime.” You mean to say Serral won 6 actual S-tier events and earned 2 MVPs in S-tier team leagues? Let’s assume the competitive level from 2020 to 2025 was on par with 2015. Now name one year he achieved everything you’re listing. And if you're counting stuff like HomeStory Cup or TSL as S-tier, then honestly, I don’t know what to tell you. Maru's prime in 2018 with 3 GSL titles and a WESG win is the most accomplished single year by any player. 2018 is the year Serral started dominating. What other year would you be referring to? I was also stating this year because it was referenced by the original poster I responded to. Either way, I assure you my reading comprehension is just fine. The majority of the community disagrees with you (multiple polls show Serral being selected as the GOAT by about 60-70% of the community including one here on TL around when the article first came out).. so you can sit here and argue with me about it or just use logic. 90%+ of Maru’s accomplishments have come in the same era as Serral and they pale in comparison. Comparing a WESG with the weak competition it had to a Homestory cup and acting like it’s somehow better because of the location/name attached to it is ridiculous. There were 4-5 good players and then a bunch of no names. The average offline weekly had more competition. I don’t know how anyone can defend that position. Liquipedia clearly defines what it considers S tier tournaments. Counting individual performances Serral is up 28-19. If you need a year to look at where he won “6 actual S-tier events,” just look at 2018. Please keep in mind we are going off of what TL is saying was S-tier and not what you made up in your head to do mental gymnastics. Serral 1st place (S-tier only) 2018 WCS Leipzig 2018 WCS Austin 2018 WCS Valencia 2018 GSL vs The World 2018 WCS Montreal 2018 HS Cup 18 2018 WCS Global Finals How many world championships does Maru have again? Serral won 7 S-tiers in just that one year. 2 over 8 years is laughable as a measure of a GOAT. While KR had dedicated team leagues the scene outside of this was limited. That being said Serral has represented Finland or “The World” multiple times with a ridiculous win rate. Maru has such a bad win rate outside of KR compared to Serral it’s like comparing the 2007 Patriots to a HS team. It’s almost as bad as stating Maru was a top 2 Terran in HoTS. Both Inno and TaeJa were clearly better and there are certainly arguments to be made for ByuN (who actually won a world title in this era) and Mvp. LMAO, counting all those 2018 WCS wins where his finals opponents were Has, MaNa, Special, and just-got-into-the-scene Reynor whom he barely beat 4:3 is just hilarious. I don’t think I need to argue with you anymore lol. Just leave this post up as a monument to your own self-humiliation. ‘While KR had dedicated team leagues the scene outside of this was limited’ oh right, that must be why he only started looking good two years after KeSPA disbanded and Blizzard introduced region lock to protect foreigners. Then what was his win rate vs korean from 2010–2017? Must’ve been 100%, since he didn’t even get to play them, hard to lose if you never qualify huh? And calling HSC S-tier? That’s comedy. I’m not even going to bother at this point, lol. Also, the fact that you still won’t admit you mistook me for the original post you referred to just shows how you handle real arguments — either by making things up like ‘Maru didn’t win much in HotS’ (when he was the best Terran and Serral wasn’t even top 10 among foreigners), or by coping with nonsense like ‘WCS Circuit and HSC are S-tier like WESG and GSL because Liquipedia says so, wahhh.’ Or you just ignore your own careless claims and hope they quietly slip by. Man, I hope you don’t handle things like this in your actual job or study. Innovation has a pretty strong claim to being the best HoTS Terran to be fair. I do agree with you on that. I'd revise my statement to say that Maru was arguably the best Terran in HoTS, and at least top 2 without question. MMA third? Show nested quote +
Calling Serral bad at a time, when he still was attending school and being no full time pro is a notion based on... factual truth. But then you should also add that he slapped Koreans in their country as well as around the world, which no foreigner before or after him could do, once he invested his time into the game after finishing school.
Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. Show nested quote +I still don't think people understand how insane these numbers are, even in a state of the game that was less competitive I’ll give you credit for at least acknowledging the decline in competitiveness unlike the guy above who rated WCS circuit as S-tier. Sure, Serral had an incredible 2024, even though he got stomped by Clem in the world championship. But in Maru’s 2018 he also won three GSLs when GSL was still the most competitive league, plus a WESG and then got knocked out by sOs at BlizzCon. Maru’s 2018 is just as impressive, if not more than, Serral’s run from late 2023 to mid-2024. And going back to this quote, does that mean Soulkey is the GOAT of BW? Is Happy the GOAT of WC3? If Serral is GOAT under that logic, then Soulkey and Happy, instead of Flash and Moon, should hold those titles too. If Clem keeps winning for another year or two, does he become the GOAT next? Edit: Actually, Flash as an example wasn't good. Let me revise my Flash question: do Flash's post-KeSPA achievements, like four ASL championships, contribute to his GOAT claim? For me, no. Even if Soulkey with his four consecutive ASL/SSL championships can continue to win as many ASL titles as possible, he still wouldn't be the GOAT.
We don't know enough about their individual circumstances to make quality comments, so I keep it brief: Perhaps Serral's parents were not ok with him playing as much or they didn't allow for him so skip school days, like Life's or Maru's parents. Perhaps the support of a multi million dollar machine helped them develop their talents better. Many ifs.
All we know for certain is that Serral's numbers went massively up once school finished and he was able to put in the hours.
And just to be clear: Neeb graduated from high school in June and won Kespa in October of 2016. He was not attending school when playing Kespa 2016 and won it after becoming a full time pro.
And I hope you did not attempt to compare ENCE with the professional infrastructure of Korean teams like PRIME, Startale, MVP, EG-TL, etc... these teams had complete team houses with coaches, staff and analysts, daily practice schedules and full time support in form of meals, training and travel. ENCE was hardly even an amateur-team in comparison to these globally dominant, professionalized organizations.
My next point is the same as Balnazza's. If you say that it is an important metric to you, how long it took a certain player to achieve a certain achievement, how can you put Maru on top, when after 15 years of playing the game, he still did not win a single world championship, despite trying several times? Logical continuation would call for the same treatment, no?
I explained my thoughts on 2018 already:
"Serral has the most prestigious win and more PT wins overall (4 of them region locked), while Maru has a higher prestige-value on average and winning 3 GSLs in a row that year. What tips the scales for Serral at least in my opinion are the other metrics.
Match win rate: Serral 85,71% (of course only versus top Koreans) versus Maru's 66,18% (including Serral).
Average place (only tournaments with top Korean participation, not the region locks): Serral 3,10 and Maru 3,39.
Tournament win %: 50% Serral, versus 44,44% Maru (both are insane tbh; Maru played more, but also won more and got good results where Serral simply was not present and thus did not contest Maru's wins or deep runs... normal and Afreeca GSLs). In the tournaments, where the whole world was present, Serral has slightly better results.
It's a close one, but I'd give Serral a small edge on 2018. The 100% match win in the second half of that year (Zest, INno, Stats, Dark, Maru, Rogue, Trap, TaeJa, soO, sOs... I don't think any big name from that time is missing here) is just absolute bonkers."
Less competitive does not necessarily mean less hard, as I explained in the article. If we toned down the 2015 tournament numbers, do you still think we would talk so highly about many of the players of that time? In the modern era, the best players are distilled into the global events (well, except GSL where the best of the world was/were not present post 2018).
The issue is that no one comes close to Serral in terms of accomplishments, even if you apply era-multipliers to enable cross-era-comparisons to some degree.
And dismissing or massively downplaying post-2018 is also dismissing Maru's (and Rogue's) claim as his achievements mostly fall into that time frame too. A follow-up thought: How can someone who never clearly was the greatest or best player over an extended period of time or someone who mostly was the the 2nd best throughout his career, be the Greatest of all Time? In my opinion, it does not make sense to become the best player because you were 2nd best for a very long time, especially when you massively underperform in the same time frame relative to a co-contender.
I already talked about Clem in the article. With only 2 non-region-lock win in grand tournaments he is far from being in the discussion.
If you don't think Flash's post-KeSPA achievements contribute to his claim, why do you think Maru's post KeSPA achievements contribute to his claim?
Serral finished school probably in May/June 2017 as that is when the Finnish school year is over. One can look at 3-months-periods of his win rates and they go up around the time he finished school. As someone else said.. we don't know anything about cultural differences or parenting. So the most logical explanation is that Serral took off once he turned from part-time to full-time pro. At least to me. What would be your take on that?
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LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race.
Uhh, he is the 4th race. Serral is the Night King, he is literally the BBEG of the biggest TV Show of all time!!!!1
...but seriously: I'm not really buying into the 4th race thing, especially since it feels like it only creeped up again after Mizenhauers article. And I will freely admit that a huge chunk of my dislike is that it will forever be a cheap knockoff of the true "fifth race" Moon. Which btw was a nickname not earned because he had success when no other NE did, but because he played such a unique version of the game.
But it is also true that Maru clearly did not have "success in every game version/balance"? He did not win anything in WoL and he wasn't nearly the best in HotS. Not to mention certain stretches of LotV. He proved me wrong afterwards, but I stand by it, that after EWC, Maru probably dropped out of the current Top 5.
Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh.
Serral went full-time pro late 2017. He reached Top 4 in Katowice 2018 and WESG 2017 (which was played in '18), which at the time seemed tremendously impressive results for a foreigner. He then crushed the entire WCS Circuit and had probably the most dominant BlizzCon/World Championship run of all time...sorry, 2nd of all time, Clem trumped him.
"Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2.
And yet, in Marus 15 year long career, he couldn't win the most important tournament. He couldn't do it when he was a protege (like the imbecile did), he couldn't do it when it was free to win for the GSL Koreans (like sOs did), he couldn't win it when the foreigners had risen up (like Dark did) and he couldn't do it when he had the easiest opponent in a final ever (no disrespect to Oliveira, but I don't think anyone would argue that on paper he was the easiest opponent to beat in a final to get a WC since WoL). 15 years...in half the time Reynor reached the WC-finals three times, Serral won it twice.
And glad the "any good"-phrase triggered you - because you used it.
Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation.
It is disregarded, because he didn't really play. It is not that hard to understand...should Maru retire this year, I will clearly not say in 2026 "oh wow, yet another year Maru didn't win a WC!!1".
I will try now to stop arguing with you. Mostly because it is pointless, but also because it forces me to argue in a way I dislike and that is belittleling player results. Which I truely hate. That is some HLTV-shit where everyone not playing in Vitality is clearly T354535345345 and a paycheck stealer.
So I will say this, just for clarification: Maru is amazing. The best terran to this day to play the game. His long career is amazing. The fact that people hold it against him that he has no World Championship is a testament to his skill. At some point, people don't clap anymore when you reach the Top 4 three times in a row, they want you to win every time. Maru scratched on that level. His bad luck is that one guy just being that little bit better than him.
When Roger Federer retired, another tennis player (can't remember who) said the genius quote: "I was never so happy for someone who made my life miserabel for 20 years". That is was Serral is to Maru, even though Maru fumbled it plenty of times on his own. But without Serral, there is a good chance he would have won last year, considering Clem was only mortal in TvT and Marus TvT is usually amazing.
But back to my original point: I like arguing who is better. What results you value higher, what data points I have missed. But if you really start your argument with "if Serral was any good"...like dude, c'mon. How far off the rails can you be?
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On June 06 2025 23:01 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2025 17:01 Drahkn wrote:
All this work and you fail to add the simple fact that Serral dominated in an Era when SC2 competitiveness had declined for a long time. Serral did not win a S tier tournament against Koreans until mid/late 2018. )Serral and Maru are exactly the same age BTW)
Maru has won S tier tournaments since 2012.
The same year Serral gets his first "big" win if you can call it that, Maru wins World Electronic Sports Games 2018 , where he won 200000$ for first place!.
From 2018 the games competitiveness declines massively, and when Serral becomes without doubt the best player in the world some years later the game is already pretty dead compared to what it used to be ( not calling the game dead calm down don't ban me).
Maru's consistency since 2012 is unmatched, and from his big 200000dollar tournament win in 2018 , you can easily tell he has dialed it back has not had the same hunger since.
We can also not forget to add that Serral plays Zerg, let's just say historically a VERY strong race. You mean that I failed to include the thing that I addressed multiple times in the article? The thing that the history review is based on? The thing that is partly responsible for the era-multiplier? The thing that an entire counter-argument-section is dedicated to? What exactly are you basing the notion, that the games competitiveness delinked massively from 2018, on? Why exactly there? How come it wasn't a sudden decline but happened rather steadily, following the exodus post-2016?
Sorry was away for a week, you barely touched on the "If X Era's was more competitive/difficult". competitiveness decline started in 2015, and when Serral started dominating you could count on 1 hand the amount of actual tournament contenders. You also put very little emphasis on the fact that Serral's biggest most consistent domination window happened when Zerg also was extremely strong in the meta and got back to back patches of nerfs to stop zerg dominating everything. Balance is never a fun topic , but in a detailed GOAT discussion like yours it should probably be taken into account (If you did I forgot reading it). People who say Serral GOAT do not value Maru's results before Serral became relevant, they also don't put emphasis on that even tho Maru has not won as much in the most recent years
he is still consistently in finals almost everytime except a few tournaments, My two cents
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On June 09 2025 00:55 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2025 23:01 PremoBeats wrote:On June 06 2025 17:01 Drahkn wrote:
All this work and you fail to add the simple fact that Serral dominated in an Era when SC2 competitiveness had declined for a long time. Serral did not win a S tier tournament against Koreans until mid/late 2018. )Serral and Maru are exactly the same age BTW)
Maru has won S tier tournaments since 2012.
The same year Serral gets his first "big" win if you can call it that, Maru wins World Electronic Sports Games 2018 , where he won 200000$ for first place!.
From 2018 the games competitiveness declines massively, and when Serral becomes without doubt the best player in the world some years later the game is already pretty dead compared to what it used to be ( not calling the game dead calm down don't ban me).
Maru's consistency since 2012 is unmatched, and from his big 200000dollar tournament win in 2018 , you can easily tell he has dialed it back has not had the same hunger since.
We can also not forget to add that Serral plays Zerg, let's just say historically a VERY strong race. You mean that I failed to include the thing that I addressed multiple times in the article? The thing that the history review is based on? The thing that is partly responsible for the era-multiplier? The thing that an entire counter-argument-section is dedicated to? What exactly are you basing the notion, that the games competitiveness delinked massively from 2018, on? Why exactly there? How come it wasn't a sudden decline but happened rather steadily, following the exodus post-2016? Sorry was away for a week, you barely touched on the "If X Era's was more competitive/difficult". competitiveness decline started in 2015, and when Serral started dominating you could count on 1 hand the amount of actual tournament contenders. You also put very little emphasis on the fact that Serral's biggest most consistent domination window happened when Zerg also was extremely strong in the meta and got back to back patches of nerfs to stop zerg dominating everything. Balance is never a fun topic , but in a detailed GOAT discussion like yours it should probably be taken into account (If you did I forgot reading it). People who say Serral GOAT do not value Maru's results before Serral became relevant, they also don't put emphasis on that even tho Maru has not won as much in the most recent years he is still consistently in finals almost everytime except a few tournaments, My two cents
I wrote extensively about one era being more competitive, while having more tournaments to disperse the players as well as showing how the claim that Serral only faced washed up Koreans from the prime era is wrong.
I wrote about how a bigger player pool mostly means more lower tier players, which shouldn't be an issue for any GOAT-contender.
I wrote about that the reverse would need to be taken into account as well when trying to address era and that some of these notions cancel each other out (for example I opted to disregard advantages for Serral as well to even things out more).
While there certainly were times where Zerg was overtuned, what is your basis for the notion "Serral's biggest most consistent domination window happened when Zerg also was extremely strong"?
The data I collected mostly shows that he is miles ahead of an average that consists of the best players that ever touched the game throughout his career. And one of these players even is a Zerg who played many years alongside Serral.
Well... I valued Maru's results before Serral became relevant. And I gave them a 50% boost through era and another boost via the tournament-multiplier. And as Maru was perfectly able to score points in recent years as well, I don't think I have much in common with those "people".
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On June 08 2025 08:04 dedede wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Show nested quote +Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race. Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh. "Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2. Show nested quote +If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation.
lol Maru was basically a gate keeper prior to 2018. No one called him the fourth race except his fans
Maru was a lower tier Korean during the so called “most competitive era”.
Before the you come and say “Maru was the best pro league player etc”. NO ONE cares about that, since games played during that league was proven to be heavily match fixed.
Maru performed well in a match fixed league . Cool? Are Maru fans that desperate that they need to use results from pro league lol
User was temp banned for this post.
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United States1847 Posts
On June 09 2025 06:04 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2025 08:04 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race. Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh. "Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2. If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation. lol Maru was basically a gate keeper prior to 2018. No one called him the fourth race except his fans Maru was a lower tier Korean during the so called “most competitive era”. Before the you come and say “Maru was the best pro league player etc”. NO ONE cares about that, since games played during that league was proven to be heavily match fixed. Maru performed well in a match fixed league . Cool? Are Maru fans that desperate that they need to use results from pro league lol
On June 08 2025 12:49 WombaT wrote:
I swear Maru with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality.
I swear Serral with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality.
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Northern Ireland25047 Posts
On June 09 2025 06:42 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 06:04 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 08 2025 08:04 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race. Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh. "Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2. If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation. lol Maru was basically a gate keeper prior to 2018. No one called him the fourth race except his fans Maru was a lower tier Korean during the so called “most competitive era”. Before the you come and say “Maru was the best pro league player etc”. NO ONE cares about that, since games played during that league was proven to be heavily match fixed. Maru performed well in a match fixed league . Cool? Are Maru fans that desperate that they need to use results from pro league lol Show nested quote +On June 08 2025 12:49 WombaT wrote:
I swear Maru with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality. I swear Serral with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality.
Haha fair!
Dunno why it’s apparently impossible for some to respect two great players and have their favourite, or one they think has the better GOAT claim.
At least with Serral there’s less mental gymnastics, he’s won more, he’s won WCs, his win rates are better, he’s stomped the head-to-head. While he is the GOAT IMO, I think there are legitimate counter-arguments, but those are pretty reasonable things to couch a claim in.
Maru’s got a legit claim too, make the legit claims!
There’s an unbelievable amount of preposterous arguments made. The scene completely collapsed post-Kespa, so Serral’s achievements are devalued. But Maru’s 4-peat is legit. I mean of course it’s legit but you can’t have both.
Apart from anything else, whose team didn’t disband right after Kespa pulled out?
Hell I’ve been around long enough to remember when jet lag was the go-to to account for him not winning internationally.
He’s a phenomenal, and entertaining player, huge achievements and for me only Serral and Clem’s peak level is higher than his. And I don’t doubt that his injury issues maybe are what’s stopping him equalling or bettering those.
But one can make the case for Maru without going into the realms of incredibly flawed arguments, it just seems a pitfall many can’t resist for whatever reason.
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Northern Ireland25047 Posts
On June 09 2025 06:04 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2025 08:04 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race. Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh. "Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2. If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation. lol Maru was basically a gate keeper prior to 2018. No one called him the fourth race except his fans Maru was a lower tier Korean during the so called “most competitive era”. Before the you come and say “Maru was the best pro league player etc”. NO ONE cares about that, since games played during that league was proven to be heavily match fixed. Maru performed well in a match fixed league . Cool? Are Maru fans that desperate that they need to use results from pro league lol
Don’t be silly. I think it’s a big stretch made by some to say he was the best HoTS player, but he was absolutely S tier then.
There were about enough fixed matches in Proleague (and some were just single sets) to count on the fingers of one hand basically.
For me the problem with Proleague isn’t one of integrity, it’s how do you assess it? In BW it was a giant focus, all the best players were there, and it stuck around for years. In SC2, less so. Does having stronger team around you boost your results? Serral has been a consistent tournament winner for way longer than Proleague even ran for.
This isn’t to say it’s worthless or anything like that, it’s just hard to fit into other calculations. In BW it’s quite easy, it’s as prestigious as individual titles, and ran for years, all of the best players played in it etc.
SC2’s been more global, more fragmented and with a much, much higher focus and interest in individual tournaments.
I discount Proleague in GOAT discussions myself outside of a tiebreaker, but it doesn’t mean Maru’s results aren’t insane. But some of the WoL era contenders, and some of the Legacy contenders never got the opportunity to play in it.
Fourth race, entirely reasonable. It’s not just that he single handedly represented Terran in the latter stages for a bit, it was also how he did it. Moon in WC3 wasn’t just the ‘Fifth Race’ because he was outperforming other Night Elf players, it was because he was playing the race differently, and trying (and succeeding) in doing things nobody else was doing. Which Maru was also doing with things like cutting Vikings and going marauder heavy and just surrounding Toss armies. It wasn’t that others couldn’t make it work, they didn’t even try.
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United States1847 Posts
On June 09 2025 08:23 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 06:42 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 09 2025 06:04 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 08 2025 08:04 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race. Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh. "Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2. If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation. lol Maru was basically a gate keeper prior to 2018. No one called him the fourth race except his fans Maru was a lower tier Korean during the so called “most competitive era”. Before the you come and say “Maru was the best pro league player etc”. NO ONE cares about that, since games played during that league was proven to be heavily match fixed. Maru performed well in a match fixed league . Cool? Are Maru fans that desperate that they need to use results from pro league lol On June 08 2025 12:49 WombaT wrote:
I swear Maru with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality. I swear Serral with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality. Haha fair! Dunno why it’s apparently impossible for some to respect two great players and have their favourite, or one they think has the better GOAT claim. At least with Serral there’s less mental gymnastics, he’s won more, he’s won WCs, his win rates are better, he’s stomped the head-to-head. While he is the GOAT IMO, I think there are legitimate counter-arguments, but those are pretty reasonable things to couch a claim in. Maru’s got a legit claim too, make the legit claims! There’s an unbelievable amount of preposterous arguments made. The scene completely collapsed post-Kespa, so Serral’s achievements are devalued. But Maru’s 4-peat is legit. I mean of course it’s legit but you can’t have both. Apart from anything else, whose team didn’t disband right after Kespa pulled out? Hell I’ve been around long enough to remember when jet lag was the go-to to account for him not winning internationally. He’s a phenomenal, and entertaining player, huge achievements and for me only Serral and Clem’s peak level is higher than his. And I don’t doubt that his injury issues maybe are what’s stopping him equalling or bettering those. But one can make the case for Maru without going into the realms of incredibly flawed arguments, it just seems a pitfall many can’t resist for whatever reason.
For me, there is a very simple way of describing my top four players.
Mvp: Most Dominant (Serral has better win rates, but Mvp played at a time where all the best players were centered in Korea whereas Serral only faces Koreans so many times a year)
Rogue: Greatest Champion (He isn't the most consistent, but he knows how to win when it matters)
Serral: Best player (No one is as good at StarCraft II as Serral)
Maru: Greatest Career (the only person to have won as early as 2012 and as recently as this year. There will never be a player that can match Maru's longevity)
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On June 09 2025 09:17 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 08:23 WombaT wrote:On June 09 2025 06:42 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 09 2025 06:04 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 08 2025 08:04 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race. Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh. "Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2. If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation. lol Maru was basically a gate keeper prior to 2018. No one called him the fourth race except his fans Maru was a lower tier Korean during the so called “most competitive era”. Before the you come and say “Maru was the best pro league player etc”. NO ONE cares about that, since games played during that league was proven to be heavily match fixed. Maru performed well in a match fixed league . Cool? Are Maru fans that desperate that they need to use results from pro league lol On June 08 2025 12:49 WombaT wrote:
I swear Maru with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality. I swear Serral with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality. Haha fair! Dunno why it’s apparently impossible for some to respect two great players and have their favourite, or one they think has the better GOAT claim. At least with Serral there’s less mental gymnastics, he’s won more, he’s won WCs, his win rates are better, he’s stomped the head-to-head. While he is the GOAT IMO, I think there are legitimate counter-arguments, but those are pretty reasonable things to couch a claim in. Maru’s got a legit claim too, make the legit claims! There’s an unbelievable amount of preposterous arguments made. The scene completely collapsed post-Kespa, so Serral’s achievements are devalued. But Maru’s 4-peat is legit. I mean of course it’s legit but you can’t have both. Apart from anything else, whose team didn’t disband right after Kespa pulled out? Hell I’ve been around long enough to remember when jet lag was the go-to to account for him not winning internationally. He’s a phenomenal, and entertaining player, huge achievements and for me only Serral and Clem’s peak level is higher than his. And I don’t doubt that his injury issues maybe are what’s stopping him equalling or bettering those. But one can make the case for Maru without going into the realms of incredibly flawed arguments, it just seems a pitfall many can’t resist for whatever reason. For me, there is a very simple way of describing my top four players. Mvp: Most Dominant (Serral has better win rates, but Mvp played at a time where all the best players were centered in Korea whereas Serral only faces Koreans so many times a year) Rogue: Greatest Champion (He isn't the most consistent, but he knows how to win when it matters) Serral: Best player (No one is as good at StarCraft II as Serral) Maru: Greatest Career (the only person to have won as early as 2012 and as recently as this year. There will never be a player that can match Maru's longevity)
Kind of disagree with the first one (though MVP is definitely in my top-5)--the rest are totally on point for me.
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On June 09 2025 06:04 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2025 08:04 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race. Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh. "Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2. If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation. lol Maru was basically a gate keeper prior to 2018. No one called him the fourth race except his fans Maru was a lower tier Korean during the so called “most competitive era”. Before the you come and say “Maru was the best pro league player etc”. NO ONE cares about that, since games played during that league was proven to be heavily match fixed. Maru performed well in a match fixed league . Cool? Are Maru fans that desperate that they need to use results from pro league lol
No one called him the fourth race except his fans
Maru was a lower tier Korean during the so called “most competitive era”.
No one called him the fourth race except his fans
NO ONE cares about that, since games played during that league was proven to be heavily match fixed.
LMAO, this post is all the proof anyone needs that you’ve never actually watched or understood StarCraft 2. No one with even a basic common sense of the game would bother arguing with you after seeing this. Easily one of the most delusional or blatantly twisted takes I’ve seen from Serral fans lollll. This post really represents the average Serral fan but at least others are less obvious in their absurdity so it's good you posted this.
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On June 09 2025 09:17 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 08:23 WombaT wrote:On June 09 2025 06:42 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 09 2025 06:04 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 08 2025 08:04 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race. Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh. "Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2. If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation. lol Maru was basically a gate keeper prior to 2018. No one called him the fourth race except his fans Maru was a lower tier Korean during the so called “most competitive era”. Before the you come and say “Maru was the best pro league player etc”. NO ONE cares about that, since games played during that league was proven to be heavily match fixed. Maru performed well in a match fixed league . Cool? Are Maru fans that desperate that they need to use results from pro league lol On June 08 2025 12:49 WombaT wrote:
I swear Maru with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality. I swear Serral with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality. Haha fair! Dunno why it’s apparently impossible for some to respect two great players and have their favourite, or one they think has the better GOAT claim. At least with Serral there’s less mental gymnastics, he’s won more, he’s won WCs, his win rates are better, he’s stomped the head-to-head. While he is the GOAT IMO, I think there are legitimate counter-arguments, but those are pretty reasonable things to couch a claim in. Maru’s got a legit claim too, make the legit claims! There’s an unbelievable amount of preposterous arguments made. The scene completely collapsed post-Kespa, so Serral’s achievements are devalued. But Maru’s 4-peat is legit. I mean of course it’s legit but you can’t have both. Apart from anything else, whose team didn’t disband right after Kespa pulled out? Hell I’ve been around long enough to remember when jet lag was the go-to to account for him not winning internationally. He’s a phenomenal, and entertaining player, huge achievements and for me only Serral and Clem’s peak level is higher than his. And I don’t doubt that his injury issues maybe are what’s stopping him equalling or bettering those. But one can make the case for Maru without going into the realms of incredibly flawed arguments, it just seems a pitfall many can’t resist for whatever reason. For me, there is a very simple way of describing my top four players. Mvp: Most Dominant (Serral has better win rates, but Mvp played at a time where all the best players were centered in Korea whereas Serral only faces Koreans so many times a year) Rogue: Greatest Champion (He isn't the most consistent, but he knows how to win when it matters) Serral: Best player (No one is as good at StarCraft II as Serral) Maru: Greatest Career (the only person to have won as early as 2012 and as recently as this year. There will never be a player that can match Maru's longevity)
I'd include INno as the one with probably the best results in prime SC2 with also a respectable career length. And of course the one you shall not mention... achieving better results than Mvp in a tougher era.
On June 09 2025 08:51 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 06:04 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 08 2025 08:04 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race. Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh. "Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2. If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation. lol Maru was basically a gate keeper prior to 2018. No one called him the fourth race except his fans Maru was a lower tier Korean during the so called “most competitive era”. Before the you come and say “Maru was the best pro league player etc”. NO ONE cares about that, since games played during that league was proven to be heavily match fixed. Maru performed well in a match fixed league . Cool? Are Maru fans that desperate that they need to use results from pro league lol For me the problem with Proleague isn’t one of integrity, it’s how do you assess it? In BW it was a giant focus, all the best players were there, and it stuck around for years. In SC2, less so. Does having stronger team around you boost your results? Serral has been a consistent tournament winner for way longer than Proleague even ran for. This isn’t to say it’s worthless or anything like that, it’s just hard to fit into other calculations. In BW it’s quite easy, it’s as prestigious as individual titles, and ran for years, all of the best players played in it etc. SC2’s been more global, more fragmented and with a much, much higher focus and interest in individual tournaments.
Team results gave me a headache one year ago. But establishing a minimum threshold of having an over 50% win rate in your games, does prove that you were no burden to your team. Here, one could even build a match win rate average per team and have that as a minimum threshold to score any points. But I settled for the 51% win rate as a bar minimum.
After the threshold is cleared, one could work the same way as with individual tournaments: Rate the tournament prestige and toughness (events where only 2 teams were present are discounted entirely... for example GSL Team Competitions, as they mean a minimum 2nd place).
One could argue that the overall points for 1st-4th placed need to be devalued against individual tournaments as 32 players versus 8 teams makes it much easier to get into upper placements. But out of laziness I decided against it, as the final result was clear and the impact of team results isn't that high to begin with (for example INno 35,67 individual, 4,56 team results... Maru 60,29 and 3,85, all the other players have below 2 in team results).
One also does need a participation multiplier on top for team results though, meaning if you participated in 75% of the games, your final score (tournament points X era points X placement points) gets multiplied with 0,75 in this example.
That is a fair way to incorporate it, exclude players who have been pulled by their team - rather than contributing - and only earn points according to one's contribution/participation.
In a more subjective approach, a tie breaker like you suggested, seems plausible, as to team results' low impact.
On June 09 2025 06:04 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2025 08:04 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race. Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh. "Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2. If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation. Maru performed well in a match fixed league . Cool? Are Maru fans that desperate that they need to use results from pro league lol
Well... achieving a 85% win rate when only 3 other players ever went above 70% is quite remarkable, no? Unless there is evidence of course that only Maru benefited from the alleged match fixing.
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EPT
