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On June 09 2025 09:17 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 08:23 WombaT wrote:On June 09 2025 06:42 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 09 2025 06:04 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 08 2025 08:04 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race. Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh. "Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2. If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation. lol Maru was basically a gate keeper prior to 2018. No one called him the fourth race except his fans Maru was a lower tier Korean during the so called “most competitive era”. Before the you come and say “Maru was the best pro league player etc”. NO ONE cares about that, since games played during that league was proven to be heavily match fixed. Maru performed well in a match fixed league . Cool? Are Maru fans that desperate that they need to use results from pro league lol On June 08 2025 12:49 WombaT wrote:
I swear Maru with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality. I swear Serral with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality. Haha fair! Dunno why it’s apparently impossible for some to respect two great players and have their favourite, or one they think has the better GOAT claim. At least with Serral there’s less mental gymnastics, he’s won more, he’s won WCs, his win rates are better, he’s stomped the head-to-head. While he is the GOAT IMO, I think there are legitimate counter-arguments, but those are pretty reasonable things to couch a claim in. Maru’s got a legit claim too, make the legit claims! There’s an unbelievable amount of preposterous arguments made. The scene completely collapsed post-Kespa, so Serral’s achievements are devalued. But Maru’s 4-peat is legit. I mean of course it’s legit but you can’t have both. Apart from anything else, whose team didn’t disband right after Kespa pulled out? Hell I’ve been around long enough to remember when jet lag was the go-to to account for him not winning internationally. He’s a phenomenal, and entertaining player, huge achievements and for me only Serral and Clem’s peak level is higher than his. And I don’t doubt that his injury issues maybe are what’s stopping him equalling or bettering those. But one can make the case for Maru without going into the realms of incredibly flawed arguments, it just seems a pitfall many can’t resist for whatever reason. For me, there is a very simple way of describing my top four players. Mvp: Most Dominant (Serral has better win rates, but Mvp played at a time where all the best players were centered in Korea whereas Serral only faces Koreans so many times a year) Rogue: Greatest Champion (He isn't the most consistent, but he knows how to win when it matters) Serral: Best player (No one is as good at StarCraft II as Serral) Maru: Greatest Career (the only person to have won as early as 2012 and as recently as this year. There will never be a player that can match Maru's longevity)
Serral at least most consistent best player. I think Maru at his absolute best is just as good but is less consistent
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On June 09 2025 06:04 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2025 08:04 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race. Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh. "Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2. If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation. lol Maru was basically a gate keeper prior to 2018. No one called him the fourth race except his fans Maru was a lower tier Korean during the so called “most competitive era”. Before the you come and say “Maru was the best pro league player etc”. NO ONE cares about that, since games played during that league was proven to be heavily match fixed. Maru performed well in a match fixed league . Cool? Are Maru fans that desperate that they need to use results from pro league lol
This is an amazing read. My man here probably started watching SC2 last year. LOL
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United States1901 Posts
On June 09 2025 16:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 09:17 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 09 2025 08:23 WombaT wrote:On June 09 2025 06:42 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 09 2025 06:04 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 08 2025 08:04 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race. Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh. "Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2. If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation. lol Maru was basically a gate keeper prior to 2018. No one called him the fourth race except his fans Maru was a lower tier Korean during the so called “most competitive era”. Before the you come and say “Maru was the best pro league player etc”. NO ONE cares about that, since games played during that league was proven to be heavily match fixed. Maru performed well in a match fixed league . Cool? Are Maru fans that desperate that they need to use results from pro league lol On June 08 2025 12:49 WombaT wrote:
I swear Maru with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality. I swear Serral with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality. Haha fair! Dunno why it’s apparently impossible for some to respect two great players and have their favourite, or one they think has the better GOAT claim. At least with Serral there’s less mental gymnastics, he’s won more, he’s won WCs, his win rates are better, he’s stomped the head-to-head. While he is the GOAT IMO, I think there are legitimate counter-arguments, but those are pretty reasonable things to couch a claim in. Maru’s got a legit claim too, make the legit claims! There’s an unbelievable amount of preposterous arguments made. The scene completely collapsed post-Kespa, so Serral’s achievements are devalued. But Maru’s 4-peat is legit. I mean of course it’s legit but you can’t have both. Apart from anything else, whose team didn’t disband right after Kespa pulled out? Hell I’ve been around long enough to remember when jet lag was the go-to to account for him not winning internationally. He’s a phenomenal, and entertaining player, huge achievements and for me only Serral and Clem’s peak level is higher than his. And I don’t doubt that his injury issues maybe are what’s stopping him equalling or bettering those. But one can make the case for Maru without going into the realms of incredibly flawed arguments, it just seems a pitfall many can’t resist for whatever reason. For me, there is a very simple way of describing my top four players. Mvp: Most Dominant (Serral has better win rates, but Mvp played at a time where all the best players were centered in Korea whereas Serral only faces Koreans so many times a year) Rogue: Greatest Champion (He isn't the most consistent, but he knows how to win when it matters) Serral: Best player (No one is as good at StarCraft II as Serral) Maru: Greatest Career (the only person to have won as early as 2012 and as recently as this year. There will never be a player that can match Maru's longevity) Serral at least most consistent best player. I think Maru at his absolute best is just as good but is less consistent
With more words I could be precise, but it's an interesting exercise.
Regarding Proleague: I personally valued it very highly since players were paid a salary to play in Proleague. There are numerous examples of teams prioritizing Proleague over individual events-even Code S finals. If you're looking for a big indicator of how good a player's team was, look at the number of ace matches in which they participated. herO played a massive 24 ace matches in Proleague since CJ's general strategy (except for the brief period where Bbyong wasn't banned and ByuL was good) was to get herO a win and then try to steal a game somewhere so herO could play the ace match. There are exceptions such as Zest (because KT always chose him) who appeared in seven ace matches in 2015 alone. On the other hand, someone like Losira, who played in four of his team's 10 ace matches in 2015, (and was the only player with a winning a record) is a good indication of a team being generally dysfunctional.
Anyway, Proleague was really important to me, but if you didn't get to play in it (like Mvp or Serral) I didn't use it against them.
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On June 09 2025 18:06 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 16:40 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2025 09:17 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 09 2025 08:23 WombaT wrote:On June 09 2025 06:42 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 09 2025 06:04 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 08 2025 08:04 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race. Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh. "Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2. If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation. lol Maru was basically a gate keeper prior to 2018. No one called him the fourth race except his fans Maru was a lower tier Korean during the so called “most competitive era”. Before the you come and say “Maru was the best pro league player etc”. NO ONE cares about that, since games played during that league was proven to be heavily match fixed. Maru performed well in a match fixed league . Cool? Are Maru fans that desperate that they need to use results from pro league lol On June 08 2025 12:49 WombaT wrote:
I swear Maru with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality. I swear Serral with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality. Haha fair! Dunno why it’s apparently impossible for some to respect two great players and have their favourite, or one they think has the better GOAT claim. At least with Serral there’s less mental gymnastics, he’s won more, he’s won WCs, his win rates are better, he’s stomped the head-to-head. While he is the GOAT IMO, I think there are legitimate counter-arguments, but those are pretty reasonable things to couch a claim in. Maru’s got a legit claim too, make the legit claims! There’s an unbelievable amount of preposterous arguments made. The scene completely collapsed post-Kespa, so Serral’s achievements are devalued. But Maru’s 4-peat is legit. I mean of course it’s legit but you can’t have both. Apart from anything else, whose team didn’t disband right after Kespa pulled out? Hell I’ve been around long enough to remember when jet lag was the go-to to account for him not winning internationally. He’s a phenomenal, and entertaining player, huge achievements and for me only Serral and Clem’s peak level is higher than his. And I don’t doubt that his injury issues maybe are what’s stopping him equalling or bettering those. But one can make the case for Maru without going into the realms of incredibly flawed arguments, it just seems a pitfall many can’t resist for whatever reason. For me, there is a very simple way of describing my top four players. Mvp: Most Dominant (Serral has better win rates, but Mvp played at a time where all the best players were centered in Korea whereas Serral only faces Koreans so many times a year) Rogue: Greatest Champion (He isn't the most consistent, but he knows how to win when it matters) Serral: Best player (No one is as good at StarCraft II as Serral) Maru: Greatest Career (the only person to have won as early as 2012 and as recently as this year. There will never be a player that can match Maru's longevity) Serral at least most consistent best player. I think Maru at his absolute best is just as good but is less consistent With more words I could be precise, but it's an interesting exercise. Regarding Proleague: I personally valued it very highly since players were paid a salary to play in Proleague. There are numerous examples of teams prioritizing Proleague over individual events-even Code S finals. If you're looking for a big indicator of how good a player's team was, look at the number of ace matches in which they participated. herO played a massive 24 ace matches in Proleague since CJ's general strategy (except for the brief period where Bbyong wasn't banned and ByuL was good) was to get herO a win and then try to steal a game somewhere so herO could play the ace match. There are exceptions such as Zest (because KT always chose him) who appeared in seven ace matches in 2015 alone. On the other hand, someone like Losira, who played in four of his team's 10 ace matches in 2015, (and was the only player with a winning a record) is a good indication of a team being generally dysfunctional. Anyway, Proleague was really important to me, but if you didn't get to play in it (like Mvp or Serral) I didn't use it against them.
Fair take.
Are you aware if the prioritization of Proleague had influence on the top 5 in your list (not Mvp/Serral of course)?
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slop analysis is slop analysis. In general, this need to prove that LOTV achievements can even compare to SC2 in its prime is just silly.
Treat SC2 pre and post LOTV as a different beast, yes Serral is a monster, but he played in a radically different environment. Mvp, the match fixer, and the other 2010-2015 players. He effectively did the same thing Mvp did in his twilight years winning WCS EU over and over again. The Korean scene died and a handful of players even kept up to the same degree. It's ok. Move on.
Edit: Maybe I can make a distinction pre and post Proleague ending. but that would still be mostly for LOTVs existence still.
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On June 09 2025 21:39 Wintex wrote:
slop analysis is slop analysis. In general, this need to prove that LOTV achievements can even compare to SC2 in its prime is just silly.
Treat SC2 pre and post LOTV as a different beast, yes Serral is a monster, but he played in a radically different environment. Mvp, the match fixer, and the other 2010-2015 players. He effectively did the same thing Mvp did in his twilight years winning WCS EU over and over again. The Korean scene died and a handful of players even kept up to the same degree. It's ok. Move on.
Edit: Maybe I can make a distinction pre and post Proleague ending. but that would still be mostly for LOTVs existence still.
There was an interview with soO sometime already years in the Lotv era after team houses disbanded, and he was asked about the level of the scene. He said despite team houes disbanding and players practicing at home at their own the skill level was higher than ever. I can imagine it to be true. The players who kept playing didn't forget how to play, and brought all of their experiences into Lotv. You are also free to check a vod from pre Lotv and compare it to the standard of the past few years. If i remember, that interview was sometime before his IEM victory.
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United States1901 Posts
On June 09 2025 19:37 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 18:06 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 09 2025 16:40 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2025 09:17 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 09 2025 08:23 WombaT wrote:On June 09 2025 06:42 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 09 2025 06:04 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 08 2025 08:04 dedede wrote:On June 08 2025 07:30 Balnazza wrote:Maru and Life both were at elementary and middle school when they started to play in GSL. Neeb was in high school when he won kespa cup. Serral was just good enough like other foreigners who also were in school. Serral played his first WCS in 2012 and joined ence in 2013 (meanwhile Maru already won his OSL back then and Life won the blizzcon that year too). If he was any good he could be like Neeb/Maru/Life playing games while in school. No offense, but offense: That is just an retarded argument. It doesn't matter when you start your career, it matters what you do with it. Different upbringings and countries have different views about Esports and early careers. As soon as Serral started playing full-time, he immediately jumped into the world elite. Which is the responsible thing to do btw. Or to put your spin on it: Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... And the Happy-argument is also silly. Serral rose to the No.1 rank in a still highly competitive year. If 2018 and afterwards does not count in your book, then it is moot to speak about Marus GSLs wins - they are pointless then aswell. Happy however started dominating the WC3 scene long after its prime. And even still a lot of old-school players start considering him as a potential GOAT or even call him he GOAT, just because his dominance over the scene is so long-lasting by now. To answer your last question: If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Serral needed I think 18 months of full-time play to become the World Champion. Maru hasn't done it in 12 years...if he was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point... LOL everyone knows Maru's biggest issue for GOAT status is the lack of a World Championship. His strongest points? Success in every game version/balance, and those 4 GSLs in a row, and being the 4th race. Also, if Serral really went 'full-time' only after high school in 2016 as you claimed, how do you get 18 months to 2018? Getting rekt for the whole 2016 and 2017 and the first half of 2018, that's 18 months for you? You and the other guy just love making up numbers and definitions on the fly don't you. Parting had debut in Nov 2011 and BlizzCon win in Nov 2012 so he is the GOAT huh. "Serral was bad in HoTS" is a fact, "Serral had an amaizing 2024 until EWC" is also a fact. While "If Maru was "any good" he should have won one by accident at this point" said by you is just a funny rage bait. Plus Maru has been competing since the very first GSL season and has a fifteen-year career that has spanned the entire history of SC2. If Clem would continue dominating, maybe win 1-2 more EWCs (in a world where the next five years look like this one) then yes, maybe he can claim that title. Depending ofc on what Serral and Maru do in that time Funny how serral might do in the future when/if clem wins matters, while how he did in the HoTS when other players won is completely disregarded in the same conversation. lol Maru was basically a gate keeper prior to 2018. No one called him the fourth race except his fans Maru was a lower tier Korean during the so called “most competitive era”. Before the you come and say “Maru was the best pro league player etc”. NO ONE cares about that, since games played during that league was proven to be heavily match fixed. Maru performed well in a match fixed league . Cool? Are Maru fans that desperate that they need to use results from pro league lol On June 08 2025 12:49 WombaT wrote:
I swear Maru with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality. I swear Serral with his self-effacing and shy ways seems to attract fans with the exact opposite personality. Haha fair! Dunno why it’s apparently impossible for some to respect two great players and have their favourite, or one they think has the better GOAT claim. At least with Serral there’s less mental gymnastics, he’s won more, he’s won WCs, his win rates are better, he’s stomped the head-to-head. While he is the GOAT IMO, I think there are legitimate counter-arguments, but those are pretty reasonable things to couch a claim in. Maru’s got a legit claim too, make the legit claims! There’s an unbelievable amount of preposterous arguments made. The scene completely collapsed post-Kespa, so Serral’s achievements are devalued. But Maru’s 4-peat is legit. I mean of course it’s legit but you can’t have both. Apart from anything else, whose team didn’t disband right after Kespa pulled out? Hell I’ve been around long enough to remember when jet lag was the go-to to account for him not winning internationally. He’s a phenomenal, and entertaining player, huge achievements and for me only Serral and Clem’s peak level is higher than his. And I don’t doubt that his injury issues maybe are what’s stopping him equalling or bettering those. But one can make the case for Maru without going into the realms of incredibly flawed arguments, it just seems a pitfall many can’t resist for whatever reason. For me, there is a very simple way of describing my top four players. Mvp: Most Dominant (Serral has better win rates, but Mvp played at a time where all the best players were centered in Korea whereas Serral only faces Koreans so many times a year) Rogue: Greatest Champion (He isn't the most consistent, but he knows how to win when it matters) Serral: Best player (No one is as good at StarCraft II as Serral) Maru: Greatest Career (the only person to have won as early as 2012 and as recently as this year. There will never be a player that can match Maru's longevity) Serral at least most consistent best player. I think Maru at his absolute best is just as good but is less consistent With more words I could be precise, but it's an interesting exercise. Regarding Proleague: I personally valued it very highly since players were paid a salary to play in Proleague. There are numerous examples of teams prioritizing Proleague over individual events-even Code S finals. If you're looking for a big indicator of how good a player's team was, look at the number of ace matches in which they participated. herO played a massive 24 ace matches in Proleague since CJ's general strategy (except for the brief period where Bbyong wasn't banned and ByuL was good) was to get herO a win and then try to steal a game somewhere so herO could play the ace match. There are exceptions such as Zest (because KT always chose him) who appeared in seven ace matches in 2015 alone. On the other hand, someone like Losira, who played in four of his team's 10 ace matches in 2015, (and was the only player with a winning a record) is a good indication of a team being generally dysfunctional. Anyway, Proleague was really important to me, but if you didn't get to play in it (like Mvp or Serral) I didn't use it against them. Fair take. Are you aware if the prioritization of Proleague had influence on the top 5 in your list (not Mvp/Serral of course)?
Not really. As it turns out, players who were good in individual leagues tended to be good in Proleague. Rain, Zest, soO, Inno, Maru and sOs were all great in Proleague and won 63% or more of their games. Rogue and Stats were also good, as were herO and Classic, who are in my 11-20 range.
As mentioned, I didn't use "not playing Proleague" against anyone, but it was a useful tool when calculating where the players who peaked in when Proleague was around (2013-2015 (with most having extended peaks of 2013-2017 (as well as long careers that extended past that))) stood compared to one another.
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On June 10 2025 06:46 kajtarp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 21:39 Wintex wrote:
slop analysis is slop analysis. In general, this need to prove that LOTV achievements can even compare to SC2 in its prime is just silly.
Treat SC2 pre and post LOTV as a different beast, yes Serral is a monster, but he played in a radically different environment. Mvp, the match fixer, and the other 2010-2015 players. He effectively did the same thing Mvp did in his twilight years winning WCS EU over and over again. The Korean scene died and a handful of players even kept up to the same degree. It's ok. Move on.
Edit: Maybe I can make a distinction pre and post Proleague ending. but that would still be mostly for LOTVs existence still. There was an interview with soO sometime already years in the LotV era after team houses disbanded, and he was asked about the level of the scene. He said despite team houes disbanding and players practicing at home at their own the skill level was higher than ever. I can imagine it to be true. The players who kept playing didn't forget how to play, and brought all of their experiences into Lotv. You are also free to check a vod from pre Lotv and compare it to the standard of the past few years. If i remember, that interview was sometime before his IEM victory.
Two things can be true at once imo: that the competitive level of the scene--while still high--undoubtedly declined after team houses disbanded.
And that LoTV is just, objectively, a much more mechanically demanding and difficult game to play than Wings or HotS. I rewatched one of the all-timers the other day, (Soukey vs Inno in 2013 S1), and it's just no comparison. The army movement, micro/spell-casting and multi-tasking required today at the top are just so much better. Which is obviously a natural progression. I think the most fascinating way to nerf Serral would be to give him less options and less difficult armies to control to lower the skill-ceiling.
These two facts more or less cancel each other out for me when wrangling over eras.
That Maru has succeeded to the extent that he has throughout the various iterations of the game, for as long as he has, is the most impressive thing about his resume.
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United States1901 Posts
On June 10 2025 08:19 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 06:46 kajtarp wrote:On June 09 2025 21:39 Wintex wrote:
slop analysis is slop analysis. In general, this need to prove that LOTV achievements can even compare to SC2 in its prime is just silly.
Treat SC2 pre and post LOTV as a different beast, yes Serral is a monster, but he played in a radically different environment. Mvp, the match fixer, and the other 2010-2015 players. He effectively did the same thing Mvp did in his twilight years winning WCS EU over and over again. The Korean scene died and a handful of players even kept up to the same degree. It's ok. Move on.
Edit: Maybe I can make a distinction pre and post Proleague ending. but that would still be mostly for LOTVs existence still. There was an interview with soO sometime already years in the LotV era after team houses disbanded, and he was asked about the level of the scene. He said despite team houes disbanding and players practicing at home at their own the skill level was higher than ever. I can imagine it to be true. The players who kept playing didn't forget how to play, and brought all of their experiences into Lotv. You are also free to check a vod from pre Lotv and compare it to the standard of the past few years. If i remember, that interview was sometime before his IEM victory. Two things can be true at once imo: that the competitive level of the scene--while still high--undoubtedly declined after team houses disbanded. And that LoTV is just, objectively, a much more mechanically demanding and difficult game to play than Wings or HotS. I rewatched one of the all-timers the other day, (Soukey vs Inno in 2013 S1), and it's just no comparison. The army movement, micro/spell-casting and multi-tasking required today at the top are just so much better. Which is obviously a natural progression. I think the most fascinating way to nerf Serral would be to give him less options and less difficult armies to control to lower the skill-ceiling. These two facts more or less cancel each other out for me when wrangling over eras. That Maru has succeeded to the extent that he has throughout the various iterations of the game, for as long as he has, is the most impressive thing about his resume.
The only interruption in players getting progressively better was 2016. Heart of the Swarm was pretty optimized by 2015 (and that took only 3ish years whereas we've had 9 of lotv), but it took people time to figure out Legacy of the Void. I feel like the upward progression got back on track in 2017.
Some elements haven't improved as much as others (people have had great micro forever, but back then it came at the cost of babysitting units), but multitasking and playing "fast" have evolved a ton. Dark is an interesting case study since he played a very weird style, but it was predicated on playing suboptimal StarCraft. It's because of this that he played from behind so much of the time, but it was clear that there was an element of strategy behind what he was doing even if other players stuck to more optimized play patterns.
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Northern Ireland26044 Posts
On June 10 2025 08:19 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 06:46 kajtarp wrote:On June 09 2025 21:39 Wintex wrote:
slop analysis is slop analysis. In general, this need to prove that LOTV achievements can even compare to SC2 in its prime is just silly.
Treat SC2 pre and post LOTV as a different beast, yes Serral is a monster, but he played in a radically different environment. Mvp, the match fixer, and the other 2010-2015 players. He effectively did the same thing Mvp did in his twilight years winning WCS EU over and over again. The Korean scene died and a handful of players even kept up to the same degree. It's ok. Move on.
Edit: Maybe I can make a distinction pre and post Proleague ending. but that would still be mostly for LOTVs existence still. There was an interview with soO sometime already years in the LotV era after team houses disbanded, and he was asked about the level of the scene. He said despite team houes disbanding and players practicing at home at their own the skill level was higher than ever. I can imagine it to be true. The players who kept playing didn't forget how to play, and brought all of their experiences into Lotv. You are also free to check a vod from pre Lotv and compare it to the standard of the past few years. If i remember, that interview was sometime before his IEM victory. Two things can be true at once imo: that the competitive level of the scene--while still high--undoubtedly declined after team houses disbanded. And that LoTV is just, objectively, a much more mechanically demanding and difficult game to play than Wings or HotS. I rewatched one of the all-timers the other day, (Soukey vs Inno in 2013 S1), and it's just no comparison. The army movement, micro/spell-casting and multi-tasking required today at the top are just so much better. Which is obviously a natural progression. I think the most fascinating way to nerf Serral would be to give him less options and less difficult armies to control to lower the skill-ceiling. These two facts more or less cancel each other out for me when wrangling over eras. That Maru has succeeded to the extent that he has throughout the various iterations of the game, for as long as he has, is the most impressive thing about his resume.
Aye you can’t really watch Serral or Clem on point in an FPVoD and conclude they’re worse than the level of play in the Kespa era.
Now, one can argue if the Kespa regime remained, the level maybe remains higher there, and the next generation come through and are even better again.
Innovation blew my brain in his first few years of prominence. For a brief period, relative to competition I don’t think I’ve seen a better player. It’s why I have him at #3 in my personal GOAT ranking, behind Serral and Maru for the record.
Rewatching now, he’s not even close to Clem when he’s on point. In terms of pure skill level, I don’t even think this is remotely arguable. His macro is insane, his micro is unbelievable, his multitasking is crazy. Inno could, for a short period just bludgeon opponents through sheer force of macro alone, and his micro was pretty fucking great, and he was no slouch in multitasking.
He couldn’t do what Clem’s doing now, or Maru at his best. I think he was capable of it but didn’t quite get there
Clem can parade push with the best of them, or play a defensive lategame that’s as good as anyone, his macro is preposterous or hell play an offrace instead of mirror and in ladder have the best Toss in Europe
It’s ridiculous. For me it doesn’t remotely diminish Inno at his best, or Mvp (my number 4), but in terms of pure proficiency at the game Clem is hitting absolutely preposterous levels.
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We are still so unbelievably back
Thanks y'all it was a good read
Especially the delusional ones
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On June 09 2025 04:47 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 00:55 Drahkn wrote:On June 06 2025 23:01 PremoBeats wrote:On June 06 2025 17:01 Drahkn wrote:
All this work and you fail to add the simple fact that Serral dominated in an Era when SC2 competitiveness had declined for a long time. Serral did not win a S tier tournament against Koreans until mid/late 2018. )Serral and Maru are exactly the same age BTW)
Maru has won S tier tournaments since 2012.
The same year Serral gets his first "big" win if you can call it that, Maru wins World Electronic Sports Games 2018 , where he won 200000$ for first place!.
From 2018 the games competitiveness declines massively, and when Serral becomes without doubt the best player in the world some years later the game is already pretty dead compared to what it used to be ( not calling the game dead calm down don't ban me).
Maru's consistency since 2012 is unmatched, and from his big 200000dollar tournament win in 2018 , you can easily tell he has dialed it back has not had the same hunger since.
We can also not forget to add that Serral plays Zerg, let's just say historically a VERY strong race. You mean that I failed to include the thing that I addressed multiple times in the article? The thing that the history review is based on? The thing that is partly responsible for the era-multiplier? The thing that an entire counter-argument-section is dedicated to? What exactly are you basing the notion, that the games competitiveness delinked massively from 2018, on? Why exactly there? How come it wasn't a sudden decline but happened rather steadily, following the exodus post-2016? Sorry was away for a week, you barely touched on the "If X Era's was more competitive/difficult". competitiveness decline started in 2015, and when Serral started dominating you could count on 1 hand the amount of actual tournament contenders. You also put very little emphasis on the fact that Serral's biggest most consistent domination window happened when Zerg also was extremely strong in the meta and got back to back patches of nerfs to stop zerg dominating everything. Balance is never a fun topic , but in a detailed GOAT discussion like yours it should probably be taken into account (If you did I forgot reading it). People who say Serral GOAT do not value Maru's results before Serral became relevant, they also don't put emphasis on that even tho Maru has not won as much in the most recent years he is still consistently in finals almost everytime except a few tournaments, My two cents I wrote extensively about one era being more competitive, while having more tournaments to disperse the players as well as showing how the claim that Serral only faced washed up Koreans from the prime era is wrong. I wrote about how a bigger player pool mostly means more lower tier players, which shouldn't be an issue for any GOAT-contender. I wrote about that the reverse would need to be taken into account as well when trying to address era and that some of these notions cancel each other out (for example I opted to disregard advantages for Serral as well to even things out more). While there certainly were times where Zerg was overtuned, what is your basis for the notion "Serral's biggest most consistent domination window happened when Zerg also was extremely strong"? The data I collected mostly shows that he is miles ahead of an average that consists of the best players that ever touched the game throughout his career. And one of these players even is a Zerg who played many years alongside Serral. Well... I valued Maru's results before Serral became relevant. And I gave them a 50% boost through era and another boost via the tournament-multiplier. And as Maru was perfectly able to score points in recent years as well, I don't think I have much in common with those "people".
You have clear biases towards Serral, you also struggle to see a WIN today is not as impressive or as difficult as back when SC2 was highly competitive , Serral dominated when the competive scene had declined massively. If a WIN today is worth 5 points it was worth 20 back in the day. There is no argument that can be made that can even remotely come close to Maru achievements over such a long span of time, compared to Serral who came in with a tiny competitive scene and a Zerg race that was extremely strong, and got nerfed massively during much of Serrals domination period.
He doesnt come close even if he has a "world championship" or winning record vs Maru. There are players who have winning records vs flash, you don't call them the just because of that.
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On June 10 2025 17:56 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 04:47 PremoBeats wrote:On June 09 2025 00:55 Drahkn wrote:On June 06 2025 23:01 PremoBeats wrote:On June 06 2025 17:01 Drahkn wrote:
All this work and you fail to add the simple fact that Serral dominated in an Era when SC2 competitiveness had declined for a long time. Serral did not win a S tier tournament against Koreans until mid/late 2018. )Serral and Maru are exactly the same age BTW)
Maru has won S tier tournaments since 2012.
The same year Serral gets his first "big" win if you can call it that, Maru wins World Electronic Sports Games 2018 , where he won 200000$ for first place!.
From 2018 the games competitiveness declines massively, and when Serral becomes without doubt the best player in the world some years later the game is already pretty dead compared to what it used to be ( not calling the game dead calm down don't ban me).
Maru's consistency since 2012 is unmatched, and from his big 200000dollar tournament win in 2018 , you can easily tell he has dialed it back has not had the same hunger since.
We can also not forget to add that Serral plays Zerg, let's just say historically a VERY strong race. You mean that I failed to include the thing that I addressed multiple times in the article? The thing that the history review is based on? The thing that is partly responsible for the era-multiplier? The thing that an entire counter-argument-section is dedicated to? What exactly are you basing the notion, that the games competitiveness delinked massively from 2018, on? Why exactly there? How come it wasn't a sudden decline but happened rather steadily, following the exodus post-2016? Sorry was away for a week, you barely touched on the "If X Era's was more competitive/difficult". competitiveness decline started in 2015, and when Serral started dominating you could count on 1 hand the amount of actual tournament contenders. You also put very little emphasis on the fact that Serral's biggest most consistent domination window happened when Zerg also was extremely strong in the meta and got back to back patches of nerfs to stop zerg dominating everything. Balance is never a fun topic , but in a detailed GOAT discussion like yours it should probably be taken into account (If you did I forgot reading it). People who say Serral GOAT do not value Maru's results before Serral became relevant, they also don't put emphasis on that even tho Maru has not won as much in the most recent years he is still consistently in finals almost everytime except a few tournaments, My two cents I wrote extensively about one era being more competitive, while having more tournaments to disperse the players as well as showing how the claim that Serral only faced washed up Koreans from the prime era is wrong. I wrote about how a bigger player pool mostly means more lower tier players, which shouldn't be an issue for any GOAT-contender. I wrote about that the reverse would need to be taken into account as well when trying to address era and that some of these notions cancel each other out (for example I opted to disregard advantages for Serral as well to even things out more). While there certainly were times where Zerg was overtuned, what is your basis for the notion "Serral's biggest most consistent domination window happened when Zerg also was extremely strong"? The data I collected mostly shows that he is miles ahead of an average that consists of the best players that ever touched the game throughout his career. And one of these players even is a Zerg who played many years alongside Serral. Well... I valued Maru's results before Serral became relevant. And I gave them a 50% boost through era and another boost via the tournament-multiplier. And as Maru was perfectly able to score points in recent years as well, I don't think I have much in common with those "people". You have clear biases towards Serral, you also struggle to see a WIN today is not as impressive or as difficult as back when SC2 was highly competitive , Serral dominated when the competive scene had declined massively. If a WIN today is worth 5 points it was worth 20 back in the day. There is no argument that can be made that can even remotely come close to Maru achievements over such a long span of time, compared to Serral who came in with a tiny competitive scene and a Zerg race that was extremely strong, and got nerfed massively during much of Serrals domination period. He doesnt come close even if he has a "world championship" or winning record vs Maru. There are players who have winning records vs flash, you don't call them the just because of that.
What makes you say I am biased towards Serral? On several occassions I made decisions that penalized him. What are the exact decisions in this article where you find bias?
And how do I struggle in seeing this, if I made it clear how I gave a boost to the prime era?
How do you arrive at the 5:20 or 1:5 ratio? What is the underlying logic?
And assuming I go with your suggestion and put a 5 times era-multiplier on the prime-era... Maru will not be the GOAT. He wouldn't even be 2nd place, as Life and INnoVation both would be ahead of him. Oh yeah.. and Rain would be above Serral. And Life/INno would be 3.5 times ahead of Rogue too, even with actualized weightings.
See... the good thing about such statistical models is the fact that they show pretty clearly, if someone is biased. I now know that you think that prime wins are worth 5 times more than modern wins and thus your GOAT cannot be Maru (I disagree with this ratio of course). Now we can observe if you stay consistent with your multiplier of 5, if that means Maru is not the GOAT.
Another bonus is, that it is pretty easy to value suggestions. As no sane person would rank Rain above Serral or INno's career 3.5 times that of Rogue, your suggestion simply is a case of subjective misinterpretation (and probably bias towards Maru).
As I wrote in the article:
"One might still ask: what if we tweak the subjective metrics to favor a different GOAT candidate? For example, increasing the era-adjusted weight to push Life even further ahead on the efficiency score, or let Mvp get ahead of Serral as well. Any such adjustment would necessarily harm the other contenders in the same move. Life’s lead in this metric alone is not sufficient to close the overall gap without heavily overweighing it - which would in turn catastrophically penalize other GOAT contenders like Rain, INnoVation, Maru or Rogue, who rank significantly lower in this dimension. Also, Maru or Rogue’s relation would be utterly disastrous as their achievements mostly overlap in time with Serral.
The scoring system would then become a binary fight between two outliers among outliers: Serral and Life.
Likewise, Serral’s dominance is not solely dependent on any single metric. Apart from efficiency - where is ahead - there is no category in which another player surpasses him. Even if one were to increase the era amplification in that category to boost Life significantly, the unintended effect would be to collapse the GOAT argument for Maru and Rogue, who would fall dramatically in the final score, as the era boost would also need to be changed in the tournament score for Mvp, Rain, Life and INnoVation.
Such one-dimensional inflation is analytically fragile and undermines multi-metric integrity, as the score landscape is tightly interlinked.
"
With your suggestion, Maru still would not be on the first spot and Rogue's case would be completely shattered.
I further never said anything about winning Maru v Serral's winning records, as I expressed multiple times on this forum that winning records in a 1v1 are rather meaningless. Nevertheless, it is quite impressive that Serral has a positive winning record against every player that he played regularly after turning pro.
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On June 10 2025 17:56 Drahkn wrote:
You have clear biases towards Serral, you also struggle to see a WIN today is not as impressive or as difficult as back when SC2 was highly competitive , Serral dominated when the competive scene had declined massively. If a WIN today is worth 5 points it was worth 20 back in the day.
Says who? You? Just get back to soO's interview where he said the Lotv era was much more higher skilled than ever. Or just watch matches from the Hots era and compare it to past years. A few years ago i've rewatched Blizzcon 2013 and i wasn't impressed to say the least.
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On June 10 2025 17:56 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 04:47 PremoBeats wrote:On June 09 2025 00:55 Drahkn wrote:On June 06 2025 23:01 PremoBeats wrote:On June 06 2025 17:01 Drahkn wrote:
All this work and you fail to add the simple fact that Serral dominated in an Era when SC2 competitiveness had declined for a long time. Serral did not win a S tier tournament against Koreans until mid/late 2018. )Serral and Maru are exactly the same age BTW)
Maru has won S tier tournaments since 2012.
The same year Serral gets his first "big" win if you can call it that, Maru wins World Electronic Sports Games 2018 , where he won 200000$ for first place!.
From 2018 the games competitiveness declines massively, and when Serral becomes without doubt the best player in the world some years later the game is already pretty dead compared to what it used to be ( not calling the game dead calm down don't ban me).
Maru's consistency since 2012 is unmatched, and from his big 200000dollar tournament win in 2018 , you can easily tell he has dialed it back has not had the same hunger since.
We can also not forget to add that Serral plays Zerg, let's just say historically a VERY strong race. You mean that I failed to include the thing that I addressed multiple times in the article? The thing that the history review is based on? The thing that is partly responsible for the era-multiplier? The thing that an entire counter-argument-section is dedicated to? What exactly are you basing the notion, that the games competitiveness delinked massively from 2018, on? Why exactly there? How come it wasn't a sudden decline but happened rather steadily, following the exodus post-2016? Sorry was away for a week, you barely touched on the "If X Era's was more competitive/difficult". competitiveness decline started in 2015, and when Serral started dominating you could count on 1 hand the amount of actual tournament contenders. You also put very little emphasis on the fact that Serral's biggest most consistent domination window happened when Zerg also was extremely strong in the meta and got back to back patches of nerfs to stop zerg dominating everything. Balance is never a fun topic , but in a detailed GOAT discussion like yours it should probably be taken into account (If you did I forgot reading it). People who say Serral GOAT do not value Maru's results before Serral became relevant, they also don't put emphasis on that even tho Maru has not won as much in the most recent years he is still consistently in finals almost everytime except a few tournaments, My two cents I wrote extensively about one era being more competitive, while having more tournaments to disperse the players as well as showing how the claim that Serral only faced washed up Koreans from the prime era is wrong. I wrote about how a bigger player pool mostly means more lower tier players, which shouldn't be an issue for any GOAT-contender. I wrote about that the reverse would need to be taken into account as well when trying to address era and that some of these notions cancel each other out (for example I opted to disregard advantages for Serral as well to even things out more). While there certainly were times where Zerg was overtuned, what is your basis for the notion "Serral's biggest most consistent domination window happened when Zerg also was extremely strong"? The data I collected mostly shows that he is miles ahead of an average that consists of the best players that ever touched the game throughout his career. And one of these players even is a Zerg who played many years alongside Serral. Well... I valued Maru's results before Serral became relevant. And I gave them a 50% boost through era and another boost via the tournament-multiplier. And as Maru was perfectly able to score points in recent years as well, I don't think I have much in common with those "people". You have clear biases towards Serral, you also struggle to see a WIN today is not as impressive or as difficult as back when SC2 was highly competitive , Serral dominated when the competive scene had declined massively. If a WIN today is worth 5 points it was worth 20 back in the day. There is no argument that can be made that can even remotely come close to Maru achievements over such a long span of time, compared to Serral who came in with a tiny competitive scene and a Zerg race that was extremely strong, and got nerfed massively during much of Serrals domination period. He doesnt come close even if he has a "world championship" or winning record vs Maru. There are players who have winning records vs flash, you don't call them the just because of that.
Everyone knows and agrees that the 21st of May in 2015 was the day SC2 peaked skillwise, on that singular day everything was worth a gazillion more points than it is today. Therefore Tefel winning the Go4SC2 Cup #473 on that day proved he is the GOAT. Please don't argue with the stats and logic of this, they are 100% bulletproof because I made them up.
Good day.
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On June 10 2025 17:56 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 04:47 PremoBeats wrote:On June 09 2025 00:55 Drahkn wrote:On June 06 2025 23:01 PremoBeats wrote:On June 06 2025 17:01 Drahkn wrote:
All this work and you fail to add the simple fact that Serral dominated in an Era when SC2 competitiveness had declined for a long time. Serral did not win a S tier tournament against Koreans until mid/late 2018. )Serral and Maru are exactly the same age BTW)
Maru has won S tier tournaments since 2012.
The same year Serral gets his first "big" win if you can call it that, Maru wins World Electronic Sports Games 2018 , where he won 200000$ for first place!.
From 2018 the games competitiveness declines massively, and when Serral becomes without doubt the best player in the world some years later the game is already pretty dead compared to what it used to be ( not calling the game dead calm down don't ban me).
Maru's consistency since 2012 is unmatched, and from his big 200000dollar tournament win in 2018 , you can easily tell he has dialed it back has not had the same hunger since.
We can also not forget to add that Serral plays Zerg, let's just say historically a VERY strong race. You mean that I failed to include the thing that I addressed multiple times in the article? The thing that the history review is based on? The thing that is partly responsible for the era-multiplier? The thing that an entire counter-argument-section is dedicated to? What exactly are you basing the notion, that the games competitiveness delinked massively from 2018, on? Why exactly there? How come it wasn't a sudden decline but happened rather steadily, following the exodus post-2016? Sorry was away for a week, you barely touched on the "If X Era's was more competitive/difficult". competitiveness decline started in 2015, and when Serral started dominating you could count on 1 hand the amount of actual tournament contenders. You also put very little emphasis on the fact that Serral's biggest most consistent domination window happened when Zerg also was extremely strong in the meta and got back to back patches of nerfs to stop zerg dominating everything. Balance is never a fun topic , but in a detailed GOAT discussion like yours it should probably be taken into account (If you did I forgot reading it). People who say Serral GOAT do not value Maru's results before Serral became relevant, they also don't put emphasis on that even tho Maru has not won as much in the most recent years he is still consistently in finals almost everytime except a few tournaments, My two cents I wrote extensively about one era being more competitive, while having more tournaments to disperse the players as well as showing how the claim that Serral only faced washed up Koreans from the prime era is wrong. I wrote about how a bigger player pool mostly means more lower tier players, which shouldn't be an issue for any GOAT-contender. I wrote about that the reverse would need to be taken into account as well when trying to address era and that some of these notions cancel each other out (for example I opted to disregard advantages for Serral as well to even things out more). While there certainly were times where Zerg was overtuned, what is your basis for the notion "Serral's biggest most consistent domination window happened when Zerg also was extremely strong"? The data I collected mostly shows that he is miles ahead of an average that consists of the best players that ever touched the game throughout his career. And one of these players even is a Zerg who played many years alongside Serral. Well... I valued Maru's results before Serral became relevant. And I gave them a 50% boost through era and another boost via the tournament-multiplier. And as Maru was perfectly able to score points in recent years as well, I don't think I have much in common with those "people". You have clear biases towards Serral, you also struggle to see a WIN today is not as impressive or as difficult as back when SC2 was highly competitive , Serral dominated when the competive scene had declined massively. If a WIN today is worth 5 points it was worth 20 back in the day. There is no argument that can be made that can even remotely come close to Maru achievements over such a long span of time, compared to Serral who came in with a tiny competitive scene and a Zerg race that was extremely strong, and got nerfed massively during much of Serrals domination period. He doesnt come close even if he has a "world championship" or winning record vs Maru. There are players who have winning records vs flash, you don't call them the just because of that.
That may be one of the worst analogies ever. Wins don’t count today (unless it’s Maru winning). If a player’s only accomplishment is having a winning record versus Flash or Serral then no logically they are not in the GOAT discussion. But when Serral’s accomplishments far surpass Maru’s it’s not the reason he is ahead it is just a factor. To not consider it even slightly (2 world titles to 0 and a head to head record that makes Maru look like he is in Platinum) just shows the mental gymnastics you have to perform to even formulate some semblance of an argument.
Your GOAT looked great today in GSL (the much weaker version according to you), solid 0-4 vs Solar and Gumiho.
I can’t tell if you are trolling or actually believe even a fraction of what you type. Either way it’s been entertaining. Thank you for the laughs. Stay strong.
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Northern Ireland26044 Posts
On June 11 2025 21:41 onPHYRE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 17:56 Drahkn wrote:On June 09 2025 04:47 PremoBeats wrote:On June 09 2025 00:55 Drahkn wrote:On June 06 2025 23:01 PremoBeats wrote:On June 06 2025 17:01 Drahkn wrote:
All this work and you fail to add the simple fact that Serral dominated in an Era when SC2 competitiveness had declined for a long time. Serral did not win a S tier tournament against Koreans until mid/late 2018. )Serral and Maru are exactly the same age BTW)
Maru has won S tier tournaments since 2012.
The same year Serral gets his first "big" win if you can call it that, Maru wins World Electronic Sports Games 2018 , where he won 200000$ for first place!.
From 2018 the games competitiveness declines massively, and when Serral becomes without doubt the best player in the world some years later the game is already pretty dead compared to what it used to be ( not calling the game dead calm down don't ban me).
Maru's consistency since 2012 is unmatched, and from his big 200000dollar tournament win in 2018 , you can easily tell he has dialed it back has not had the same hunger since.
We can also not forget to add that Serral plays Zerg, let's just say historically a VERY strong race. You mean that I failed to include the thing that I addressed multiple times in the article? The thing that the history review is based on? The thing that is partly responsible for the era-multiplier? The thing that an entire counter-argument-section is dedicated to? What exactly are you basing the notion, that the games competitiveness delinked massively from 2018, on? Why exactly there? How come it wasn't a sudden decline but happened rather steadily, following the exodus post-2016? Sorry was away for a week, you barely touched on the "If X Era's was more competitive/difficult". competitiveness decline started in 2015, and when Serral started dominating you could count on 1 hand the amount of actual tournament contenders. You also put very little emphasis on the fact that Serral's biggest most consistent domination window happened when Zerg also was extremely strong in the meta and got back to back patches of nerfs to stop zerg dominating everything. Balance is never a fun topic , but in a detailed GOAT discussion like yours it should probably be taken into account (If you did I forgot reading it). People who say Serral GOAT do not value Maru's results before Serral became relevant, they also don't put emphasis on that even tho Maru has not won as much in the most recent years he is still consistently in finals almost everytime except a few tournaments, My two cents I wrote extensively about one era being more competitive, while having more tournaments to disperse the players as well as showing how the claim that Serral only faced washed up Koreans from the prime era is wrong. I wrote about how a bigger player pool mostly means more lower tier players, which shouldn't be an issue for any GOAT-contender. I wrote about that the reverse would need to be taken into account as well when trying to address era and that some of these notions cancel each other out (for example I opted to disregard advantages for Serral as well to even things out more). While there certainly were times where Zerg was overtuned, what is your basis for the notion "Serral's biggest most consistent domination window happened when Zerg also was extremely strong"? The data I collected mostly shows that he is miles ahead of an average that consists of the best players that ever touched the game throughout his career. And one of these players even is a Zerg who played many years alongside Serral. Well... I valued Maru's results before Serral became relevant. And I gave them a 50% boost through era and another boost via the tournament-multiplier. And as Maru was perfectly able to score points in recent years as well, I don't think I have much in common with those "people". You have clear biases towards Serral, you also struggle to see a WIN today is not as impressive or as difficult as back when SC2 was highly competitive , Serral dominated when the competive scene had declined massively. If a WIN today is worth 5 points it was worth 20 back in the day. There is no argument that can be made that can even remotely come close to Maru achievements over such a long span of time, compared to Serral who came in with a tiny competitive scene and a Zerg race that was extremely strong, and got nerfed massively during much of Serrals domination period. He doesnt come close even if he has a "world championship" or winning record vs Maru. There are players who have winning records vs flash, you don't call them the just because of that. That may be one of the worst analogies ever. Wins don’t count today (unless it’s Maru winning). If a player’s only accomplishment is having a winning record versus Flash or Serral then no logically they are not in the GOAT discussion. But when Serral’s accomplishments far surpass Maru’s it’s not the reason he is ahead it is just a factor. To not consider it even slightly (2 world titles to 0 and a head to head record that makes Maru look like he is in Platinum) just shows the mental gymnastics you have to perform to even formulate some semblance of an argument. Your GOAT looked great today in GSL (the much weaker version according to you), solid 0-4 vs Solar and Gumiho. I can’t tell if you are trolling or actually believe even a fraction of what you type. Either way it’s been entertaining. Thank you for the laughs. Stay strong.
Spoilers bro! Argh
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United States1901 Posts
On June 11 2025 21:41 onPHYRE wrote:
If a player’s only accomplishment is having a winning record versus Flash or Serral then no logically they are not in the GOAT discussion.
But if you have a winning record versus both, you probably are the GOAT.
![[image loading]](/staff/Mizenhauer/Fdong.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Mizenhauer/S_dong.jpg)
I suppose it was JD all along.
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On June 12 2025 00:30 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2025 21:41 onPHYRE wrote:
If a player’s only accomplishment is having a winning record versus Flash or Serral then no logically they are not in the GOAT discussion.
But if you have a winning record versus both, you probably are the GOAT. I suppose it was JD all along.
Or DRG?
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On June 12 2025 00:30 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2025 21:41 onPHYRE wrote:
If a player’s only accomplishment is having a winning record versus Flash or Serral then no logically they are not in the GOAT discussion.
But if you have a winning record versus both, you probably are the GOAT. I suppose it was JD all along.
Has was the GOAT all along.
I FUCKING KNEW IT!
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EPT
