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On July 01 2025 11:04 Balnazza wrote:
Really not my sport, but does anyone notice that when cycling-fans talk about the GOAT and where Pogacar ranks, they compare him to Merckx or whatever. No one ever says "well, he is still behind Armstrong!" Because as far as GOAT-points go, Armstrong is so far off the list every toddler on a tricycle is above him. Same is true for the imbecile. Have you touched SC2 and found the A-move button? Yes? Great, you are a higher-rated GOAT-candidate than Life, have fun with that \ o /
Couldn't we also infer that imbalance is Starcraft's version of performance enhancing drugs..?
I'm not being wholly serious. This is just a mischievous thing that popped into my head after Lance Armstrong was invoked. Balnazza should've probably chosen a different example because match-fixing and doping are completely different things.
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France12906 Posts
I mean the current cyclists are doping as well, so I don't see why they should be put above Armstrong if they didn't win as much as him yet?
Match fixing is different than doping, since 99% pro athletes are doping in sports that bring money (okay maybe only 90% in sports without much money, but even at amateur level there is lot of doping).
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Yes, doping and matchfixing are two different things. And yet, it had the same effect: The damage Armstrong (and others) caused was and is massive. How many years did it take for an extremly established event like the Tour de France to somewhat get out of the dark corner? And even today, as proven by Poopi above me, "the doubt is there".
Well, atleast that is something Life didn't damage. I atleast don't see much public (and unproven) accusation against for example Maru that he matchfixes, because why wouldn't he if Life did it? But everything else got pretty much fucked by the imbecile, so why would you consider him the GOAT, even remotely?
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France12906 Posts
On July 03 2025 04:45 Balnazza wrote:
Yes, doping and matchfixing are two different things. And yet, it had the same effect: The damage Armstrong (and others) caused was and is massive. How many years did it take for an extremly established event like the Tour de France to somewhat get out of the dark corner? And even today, as proven by Poopi above me, "the doubt is there".
Well, atleast that is something Life didn't damage. I atleast don't see much public (and unproven) accusation against for example Maru that he matchfixes, because why wouldn't he if Life did it? But everything else got pretty much fucked by the imbecile, so why would you consider him the GOAT, even remotely?
There is no doubt and it's not just cycling lol. I mean even in esports, Halo pros, COD pros, probably other FPS if it works there too, tend to use adderall because they think it enhances their performance and/or allows them to keep playing well for long hours. I am kinda doubtful it's that effective (French players didn't really do it, but there is now a French player in an NA team so if he wants to use it he has access now) / makes you perform better, but maybe it really allows you to play well for longer, kinda like caffeine? The point is that as long as there is competition people will try to cheat, and if the stakes are high they'll do it even more. We don't see it that much in esports because there isn't as magic of a drug as there are in sports. In sports, you have PED for literally everything: endurance, strength, recovery, everything ; so depending on their needs the athletes will cheat differently.
I really don't see what Life did (which is pretty shitty and indeed hurts Starcraft 2) and Armstrong as comparable. To me Armstrong was mostly guilty of lying about it, and pressuring his teammates to do higher dosages; PED Is just part of the game in sport. Cyclists were doping way before Armstrong (and other sports too), it's just hypocrit to pretend sports are clean. Imho it would be better if everyone was admitting to what PED they use, in what quantity etc. in total transparency (albeit it raises ethical questions since the health of the athletes will also need to be fully transparent); because right now I am fairly certain the field is not equal in terms of PEDs use in sport, there are probably athletes that have better stuff / medical assistance than for example less renowned / rich athletes.
About Life, I don't really care if people want to allow him to be in a GOAT conversation, because imo independently of what he did, he is not even top 10 material for GOAT anymore anyways. There are several better candidates in my mind: INno, Maru, Serral, Rogue, Mvp, Reynor, mayyybe sOs, Dark, Zest, TY, mayybe soO, mayybe even Clem or Stats.
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On July 03 2025 05:01 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2025 04:45 Balnazza wrote:
Yes, doping and matchfixing are two different things. And yet, it had the same effect: The damage Armstrong (and others) caused was and is massive. How many years did it take for an extremly established event like the Tour de France to somewhat get out of the dark corner? And even today, as proven by Poopi above me, "the doubt is there".
Well, atleast that is something Life didn't damage. I atleast don't see much public (and unproven) accusation against for example Maru that he matchfixes, because why wouldn't he if Life did it? But everything else got pretty much fucked by the imbecile, so why would you consider him the GOAT, even remotely? There is no doubt and it's not just cycling lol.
Soooo...Maru cheats? He either matchfixes or flat-out cheats, probably has done so forever? You operate under that assumption?
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France12906 Posts
On July 03 2025 05:52 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2025 05:01 Poopi wrote:On July 03 2025 04:45 Balnazza wrote:
Yes, doping and matchfixing are two different things. And yet, it had the same effect: The damage Armstrong (and others) caused was and is massive. How many years did it take for an extremly established event like the Tour de France to somewhat get out of the dark corner? And even today, as proven by Poopi above me, "the doubt is there".
Well, atleast that is something Life didn't damage. I atleast don't see much public (and unproven) accusation against for example Maru that he matchfixes, because why wouldn't he if Life did it? But everything else got pretty much fucked by the imbecile, so why would you consider him the GOAT, even remotely? There is no doubt and it's not just cycling lol. Soooo...Maru cheats? He either matchfixes or flat-out cheats, probably has done so forever? You operate under that assumption?
What? No I am speaking about sport, PED usage is rampant. I don't really consider it "cheating" since everyone does it, the main issue in terms of fairness is probably that less renowned / poor athletes don't have the same means to do it properly etc
In esport there is no real cheat in terms of PED (adderall is grey area). In terms of software cheating, like maphacking and stuff, afaik it has never been a big issue in starcraft 2, at least not at the top level? Maybe in some go4sc2 back in the early days when there were A LOT of players, idk?
And no as far as I know Maru hasn't match fixed (since he was at Prime and lots of them got convicted, the ones who were considered not guilty were probably really innocent, since they were being investigated more than other players, if that makes sense?)
And cheating? I mean, if you consider being born with the ability to become a near godlike player in an RTS game through both talent and hard work "cheating", because most other humans can't do that... 
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On July 03 2025 06:36 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2025 05:52 Balnazza wrote:On July 03 2025 05:01 Poopi wrote:On July 03 2025 04:45 Balnazza wrote:
Yes, doping and matchfixing are two different things. And yet, it had the same effect: The damage Armstrong (and others) caused was and is massive. How many years did it take for an extremly established event like the Tour de France to somewhat get out of the dark corner? And even today, as proven by Poopi above me, "the doubt is there".
Well, atleast that is something Life didn't damage. I atleast don't see much public (and unproven) accusation against for example Maru that he matchfixes, because why wouldn't he if Life did it? But everything else got pretty much fucked by the imbecile, so why would you consider him the GOAT, even remotely? There is no doubt and it's not just cycling lol. Soooo...Maru cheats? He either matchfixes or flat-out cheats, probably has done so forever? You operate under that assumption? What? No I am speaking about sport, PED usage is rampant. I don't really consider it "cheating" since everyone does it, the main issue in terms of fairness is probably that less renowned / poor athletes don't have the same means to do it properly etc In esport there is no real cheat in terms of PED (adderall is grey area). In terms of software cheating, like maphacking and stuff, afaik it has never been a big issue in starcraft 2, at least not at the top level? Maybe in some go4sc2 back in the early days when there were A LOT of players, idk? And no as far as I know Maru hasn't match fixed (since he was at Prime and lots of them got convicted, the ones who were considered not guilty were probably really innocent, since they were being investigated more than other players, if that makes sense?) And cheating? I mean, if you consider being born with the ability to become a near godlike player in an RTS game through both talent and hard work "cheating", because most other humans can't do that...
The point is that as long as there is competition people will try to cheat, and if the stakes are high they'll do it even more.
You yourself stated that there is no "doubt" when it comes to cycling. But if everyone will cheat in any competition, why give anyone the doubt? Why not doubt everyone. Of course it begs the question...is someone like Gerald just too ethical to be a top gamer or just bad at cheating? Doesn't he use the good stuff like Maru and Serral?
I will stop now before people miss the chain of discussion and think I'm serious. But if we de-base our entire game with the willy-nilly assumption that everyone cheats anyway all the time, then what the heck are we even doing here? Than the GOAT in any sports is probably someone in the middle, good enough but not willing to cheat? Jeez, all these threads and apparently we had to look at Mid-Tier Diamond players to find our GOAT...
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On July 03 2025 08:55 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2025 06:36 Poopi wrote:On July 03 2025 05:52 Balnazza wrote:On July 03 2025 05:01 Poopi wrote:On July 03 2025 04:45 Balnazza wrote:
Yes, doping and matchfixing are two different things. And yet, it had the same effect: The damage Armstrong (and others) caused was and is massive. How many years did it take for an extremly established event like the Tour de France to somewhat get out of the dark corner? And even today, as proven by Poopi above me, "the doubt is there".
Well, atleast that is something Life didn't damage. I atleast don't see much public (and unproven) accusation against for example Maru that he matchfixes, because why wouldn't he if Life did it? But everything else got pretty much fucked by the imbecile, so why would you consider him the GOAT, even remotely? There is no doubt and it's not just cycling lol. Soooo...Maru cheats? He either matchfixes or flat-out cheats, probably has done so forever? You operate under that assumption? What? No I am speaking about sport, PED usage is rampant. I don't really consider it "cheating" since everyone does it, the main issue in terms of fairness is probably that less renowned / poor athletes don't have the same means to do it properly etc In esport there is no real cheat in terms of PED (adderall is grey area). In terms of software cheating, like maphacking and stuff, afaik it has never been a big issue in starcraft 2, at least not at the top level? Maybe in some go4sc2 back in the early days when there were A LOT of players, idk? And no as far as I know Maru hasn't match fixed (since he was at Prime and lots of them got convicted, the ones who were considered not guilty were probably really innocent, since they were being investigated more than other players, if that makes sense?) And cheating? I mean, if you consider being born with the ability to become a near godlike player in an RTS game through both talent and hard work "cheating", because most other humans can't do that... Show nested quote +The point is that as long as there is competition people will try to cheat, and if the stakes are high they'll do it even more. You yourself stated that there is no "doubt" when it comes to cycling. But if everyone will cheat in any competition, why give anyone the doubt? Why not doubt everyone. Of course it begs the question...is someone like Gerald just too ethical to be a top gamer or just bad at cheating? Doesn't he use the good stuff like Maru and Serral? I will stop now before people miss the chain of discussion and think I'm serious. But if we de-base our entire game with the willy-nilly assumption that everyone cheats anyway all the time, then what the heck are we even doing here? Than the GOAT in any sports is probably someone in the middle, good enough but not willing to cheat? Jeez, all these threads and apparently we had to look at Mid-Tier Diamond players to find our GOAT...
Wait, are you saying I could be the GOAT? :O
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Top 3 (non-cheating) GoaT-List
1. WombaT
2. Florencio
3. The guy from diamond 2 that beat me the other day
All others are too good to not cheat
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France12906 Posts
On July 03 2025 08:55 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2025 06:36 Poopi wrote:On July 03 2025 05:52 Balnazza wrote:On July 03 2025 05:01 Poopi wrote:On July 03 2025 04:45 Balnazza wrote:
Yes, doping and matchfixing are two different things. And yet, it had the same effect: The damage Armstrong (and others) caused was and is massive. How many years did it take for an extremly established event like the Tour de France to somewhat get out of the dark corner? And even today, as proven by Poopi above me, "the doubt is there".
Well, atleast that is something Life didn't damage. I atleast don't see much public (and unproven) accusation against for example Maru that he matchfixes, because why wouldn't he if Life did it? But everything else got pretty much fucked by the imbecile, so why would you consider him the GOAT, even remotely? There is no doubt and it's not just cycling lol. Soooo...Maru cheats? He either matchfixes or flat-out cheats, probably has done so forever? You operate under that assumption? What? No I am speaking about sport, PED usage is rampant. I don't really consider it "cheating" since everyone does it, the main issue in terms of fairness is probably that less renowned / poor athletes don't have the same means to do it properly etc In esport there is no real cheat in terms of PED (adderall is grey area). In terms of software cheating, like maphacking and stuff, afaik it has never been a big issue in starcraft 2, at least not at the top level? Maybe in some go4sc2 back in the early days when there were A LOT of players, idk? And no as far as I know Maru hasn't match fixed (since he was at Prime and lots of them got convicted, the ones who were considered not guilty were probably really innocent, since they were being investigated more than other players, if that makes sense?) And cheating? I mean, if you consider being born with the ability to become a near godlike player in an RTS game through both talent and hard work "cheating", because most other humans can't do that... Show nested quote +The point is that as long as there is competition people will try to cheat, and if the stakes are high they'll do it even more. You yourself stated that there is no "doubt" when it comes to cycling. But if everyone will cheat in any competition, why give anyone the doubt? Why not doubt everyone. Of course it begs the question...is someone like Gerald just too ethical to be a top gamer or just bad at cheating? Doesn't he use the good stuff like Maru and Serral? I will stop now before people miss the chain of discussion and think I'm serious. But if we de-base our entire game with the willy-nilly assumption that everyone cheats anyway all the time, then what the heck are we even doing here? Than the GOAT in any sports is probably someone in the middle, good enough but not willing to cheat? Jeez, all these threads and apparently we had to look at Mid-Tier Diamond players to find our GOAT...
Not sure what you are rambling about at this point
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On July 03 2025 16:00 Rob-Zero wrote:
Top 3 (non-cheating) GoaT-List
1. WombaT
2. Florencio
3. The guy from diamond 2 that beat me the other day
All others are too good to not cheat
Seems a reasonable list to me!
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On July 01 2025 07:09 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 02:29 ejozl wrote:
Ppl say inno or maru carried terran alone, but for zerg this was much more the case with life. There were so many top terrans in hots, zerg had winners, but anyone as dominant as life? Only soO comes close and he is certainly not a winner. There were hyung, jaedong and solar, but I don't think many see these as the best of the best players, though they had there time in the sun. If soO enjoyed the balance serral had in 2018 and 2019, which he did as well and it made him finally win in 2019, but had he had that zerg version behind him in from 2013-2017 we might just have our goat, potentially 6 more wins right there. There were 4 Terran GSL champs in 2018, granted they were the same bloke. 3 TvPs, and 3 separate Ts at that, and one TvT. What is this balance that Serral supposedly benefitted from? It wasn’t too bad balance wise around that time, quite a variety of finals matchups and different faces too. I think a few years later, especially when Toss started to really struggle in PvZ, yeah that was a very strong period for Zerg. I think lately they’ve maybe been over-nerfed even. I just don’t think some of your observations actually stack up against results in the eras you’re talking about.
It's not even that zerg was so broken, though they were in zvp, but toss was nonexistent and has been for most of lotv. And so I find it super natural that tvz, tvt and zvz experts will rise to the top. Clem, serral, reynor, dark and maru. And they started dominating like never seen before, probably because they only have to be 2x matchup powerhouses. Now, in 2025 we see actual balance again and at the same time we see fluctuation like never before.
@mizen I had this thought as well, I'm not gonna lie, gumiho for me wasn't a 'true' gsl champion, but rather it was only made possible because of soO, the GF auto-loser 
This life take is so bad, as if throwing matches is anything like actually cheating.. yeah, if you strip him off of all his titles you are more accomplished than him, congrats..
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This Life take is so bad, as if throwing matches is anything like actually cheating.. yeah, if you strip him off of all his titles you are more accomplished than him, congrats..
Glad you agree that the imbecile has no place at all in the GOAT-discussion :3
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France12906 Posts
On July 05 2025 00:01 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +This Life take is so bad, as if throwing matches is anything like actually cheating.. yeah, if you strip him off of all his titles you are more accomplished than him, congrats.. Glad you agree that the imbecile has no place at all in the GOAT-discussion :3
He has a place but it’s outside the top 10
Life is the budget version of Reynor
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On July 04 2025 23:05 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 07:09 WombaT wrote:On July 01 2025 02:29 ejozl wrote:
Ppl say inno or maru carried terran alone, but for zerg this was much more the case with life. There were so many top terrans in hots, zerg had winners, but anyone as dominant as life? Only soO comes close and he is certainly not a winner. There were hyung, jaedong and solar, but I don't think many see these as the best of the best players, though they had there time in the sun. If soO enjoyed the balance serral had in 2018 and 2019, which he did as well and it made him finally win in 2019, but had he had that zerg version behind him in from 2013-2017 we might just have our goat, potentially 6 more wins right there. There were 4 Terran GSL champs in 2018, granted they were the same bloke. 3 TvPs, and 3 separate Ts at that, and one TvT. What is this balance that Serral supposedly benefitted from? It wasn’t too bad balance wise around that time, quite a variety of finals matchups and different faces too. I think a few years later, especially when Toss started to really struggle in PvZ, yeah that was a very strong period for Zerg. I think lately they’ve maybe been over-nerfed even. I just don’t think some of your observations actually stack up against results in the eras you’re talking about. It's not even that zerg was so broken, though they were in zvp, but toss was nonexistent and has been for most of lotv. And so I find it super natural that tvz, tvt and zvz experts will rise to the top. Clem, serral, reynor, dark and maru. And they started dominating like never seen before, probably because they only have to be 2x matchup powerhouses. Now, in 2025 we see actual balance again and at the same time we see fluctuation like never before. @mizen I had this thought as well, I'm not gonna lie, gumiho for me wasn't a 'true' gsl champion, but rather it was only made possible because of soO, the GF auto-loser This life take is so bad, as if throwing matches is anything like actually cheating.. yeah, if you strip him off of all his titles you are more accomplished than him, congrats..
In 2018 though? Serral had to play Toss in GSLvtW and Blizzcon finals. Classic was in the final of Katowice, and there were 3 different Toss players in the finals of GSL that year. Terran and Zerg grabbed more prizes, but Toss was consistently up there that year, and indeed Zergs didn’t make a GSL final that year.
That was quite a decent year overall for balance.
I also don’t think Dark or Reynor have really been that dominant, they’re consistently competitive and have had huge wins, but they’re not bludgeoning the competition like Serral or Maru have had frequent periods of doing, or Clem has shown for his EWC run, WTL carrying and beyond
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Leaving the scandal aside... Life's achievements and dominance in 2012 and 2013 is crystal-clear. Some people hype him up too much though, as there already was a visible downward trajectory in 2014 and 2015.. which perhaps (together with his debts) led him to the quick cash grabs. But his and Mvp's tournament win rates are only bested by Serral. The kid was good.
And no.. 2018 definitely was no bad year for Toss balance-wise... can't see how one is able to make that point.
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On July 05 2025 08:29 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2025 23:05 ejozl wrote:On July 01 2025 07:09 WombaT wrote:On July 01 2025 02:29 ejozl wrote:
Ppl say inno or maru carried terran alone, but for zerg this was much more the case with life. There were so many top terrans in hots, zerg had winners, but anyone as dominant as life? Only soO comes close and he is certainly not a winner. There were hyung, jaedong and solar, but I don't think many see these as the best of the best players, though they had there time in the sun. If soO enjoyed the balance serral had in 2018 and 2019, which he did as well and it made him finally win in 2019, but had he had that zerg version behind him in from 2013-2017 we might just have our goat, potentially 6 more wins right there. There were 4 Terran GSL champs in 2018, granted they were the same bloke. 3 TvPs, and 3 separate Ts at that, and one TvT. What is this balance that Serral supposedly benefitted from? It wasn’t too bad balance wise around that time, quite a variety of finals matchups and different faces too. I think a few years later, especially when Toss started to really struggle in PvZ, yeah that was a very strong period for Zerg. I think lately they’ve maybe been over-nerfed even. I just don’t think some of your observations actually stack up against results in the eras you’re talking about. It's not even that zerg was so broken, though they were in zvp, but toss was nonexistent and has been for most of lotv. And so I find it super natural that tvz, tvt and zvz experts will rise to the top. Clem, serral, reynor, dark and maru. And they started dominating like never seen before, probably because they only have to be 2x matchup powerhouses. Now, in 2025 we see actual balance again and at the same time we see fluctuation like never before. @mizen I had this thought as well, I'm not gonna lie, gumiho for me wasn't a 'true' gsl champion, but rather it was only made possible because of soO, the GF auto-loser This life take is so bad, as if throwing matches is anything like actually cheating.. yeah, if you strip him off of all his titles you are more accomplished than him, congrats.. In 2018 though? Serral had to play Toss in GSLvtW and Blizzcon finals. Classic was in the final of Katowice, and there were 3 different Toss players in the finals of GSL that year. Terran and Zerg grabbed more prizes, but Toss was consistently up there that year, and indeed Zergs didn’t make a GSL final that year. That was quite a decent year overall for balance. I also don’t think Dark or Reynor have really been that dominant, they’re consistently competitive and have had huge wins, but they’re not bludgeoning the competition like Serral or Maru have had frequent periods of doing, or Clem has shown for his EWC run, WTL carrying and beyond
It's not too bad as you said with the finals appearances for that year, though I'd argue protoss had the greatest lineup post kespa, so not producing a win is strange to say the least, but it could've just been up to chance.
Life might've had a reason to have a downward trajectory with police investigations, or bad nerves from what he'd done, I've no clue, there was also the strange player transfer which might mean the team threw him under the bus/found out about it. - But if downward trajectory means blizzcon finals, taepei and a gsl win that says something about his form.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On July 05 2025 23:38 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2025 08:29 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2025 23:05 ejozl wrote:On July 01 2025 07:09 WombaT wrote:On July 01 2025 02:29 ejozl wrote:
Ppl say inno or maru carried terran alone, but for zerg this was much more the case with life. There were so many top terrans in hots, zerg had winners, but anyone as dominant as life? Only soO comes close and he is certainly not a winner. There were hyung, jaedong and solar, but I don't think many see these as the best of the best players, though they had there time in the sun. If soO enjoyed the balance serral had in 2018 and 2019, which he did as well and it made him finally win in 2019, but had he had that zerg version behind him in from 2013-2017 we might just have our goat, potentially 6 more wins right there. There were 4 Terran GSL champs in 2018, granted they were the same bloke. 3 TvPs, and 3 separate Ts at that, and one TvT. What is this balance that Serral supposedly benefitted from? It wasn’t too bad balance wise around that time, quite a variety of finals matchups and different faces too. I think a few years later, especially when Toss started to really struggle in PvZ, yeah that was a very strong period for Zerg. I think lately they’ve maybe been over-nerfed even. I just don’t think some of your observations actually stack up against results in the eras you’re talking about. It's not even that zerg was so broken, though they were in zvp, but toss was nonexistent and has been for most of lotv. And so I find it super natural that tvz, tvt and zvz experts will rise to the top. Clem, serral, reynor, dark and maru. And they started dominating like never seen before, probably because they only have to be 2x matchup powerhouses. Now, in 2025 we see actual balance again and at the same time we see fluctuation like never before. @mizen I had this thought as well, I'm not gonna lie, gumiho for me wasn't a 'true' gsl champion, but rather it was only made possible because of soO, the GF auto-loser This life take is so bad, as if throwing matches is anything like actually cheating.. yeah, if you strip him off of all his titles you are more accomplished than him, congrats.. In 2018 though? Serral had to play Toss in GSLvtW and Blizzcon finals. Classic was in the final of Katowice, and there were 3 different Toss players in the finals of GSL that year. Terran and Zerg grabbed more prizes, but Toss was consistently up there that year, and indeed Zergs didn’t make a GSL final that year. That was quite a decent year overall for balance. I also don’t think Dark or Reynor have really been that dominant, they’re consistently competitive and have had huge wins, but they’re not bludgeoning the competition like Serral or Maru have had frequent periods of doing, or Clem has shown for his EWC run, WTL carrying and beyond It's not too bad as you said with the finals appearances for that year, though I'd argue protoss had the greatest lineup post kespa, so not producing a win is strange to say the least, but it could've just been up to chance. Life might've had a reason to have a downward trajectory with police investigations, or bad nerves from what he'd done, I've no clue, there was also the strange player transfer which might mean the team through him under the bus/found out about it. - But if downward trajectory means blizzcon finals, taepei and a gsl win that says something about his form.
Both Serral and Maru had all-time great years, in the same year.
Probably the two best individual years yet seen, and I dunno if they’ve been surpassed. They’ve had ridiculous years since but I think the field was deeper in 2018
I don’t think it’s all that strange that Toss weren’t getting golds if arguably the two GOATs had arguably their best years and locked them out. Rogue also doing Rogue things in Katowice.
I think titles are somewhat overrated in terms of assessing balance, important sure but a few outliers can really skew that. I think if a race is a consistent factor in playoffs, is making finals and it’s different players making those finals the balance is probably in a good spot.
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On July 01 2025 11:04 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 07:09 WombaT wrote:On July 01 2025 02:29 ejozl wrote:
Ppl say inno or maru carried terran alone, but for zerg this was much more the case with life. There were so many top terrans in hots, zerg had winners, but anyone as dominant as life? Only soO comes close and he is certainly not a winner. There were hyung, jaedong and solar, but I don't think many see these as the best of the best players, though they had there time in the sun. If soO enjoyed the balance serral had in 2018 and 2019, which he did as well and it made him finally win in 2019, but had he had that zerg version behind him in from 2013-2017 we might just have our goat, potentially 6 more wins right there. There were 4 Terran GSL champs in 2018, granted they were the same bloke. 3 TvPs, and 3 separate Ts at that, and one TvT. What is this balance that Serral supposedly benefitted from? It wasn’t too bad balance wise around that time, quite a variety of finals matchups and different faces too. I think a few years later, especially when Toss started to really struggle in PvZ, yeah that was a very strong period for Zerg. I think lately they’ve maybe been over-nerfed even. I just don’t think some of your observations actually stack up against results in the eras you’re talking about. lso...why is the imbecile still creeping up in these discussions? I don't get it. He does not have enough GSLs to be picked over Maru, he does not have the Proleague results (not to mention he has never won Proleague), he is missing a World Championship (Blizzard officially vacated his title) and above all he probably caused the most damage to the scene a singular person could gather up. Really not my sport, but does anyone notice that when cycling-fans talk about the GOAT and where Pogacar ranks, they compare him to Merckx or whatever. No one ever says "well, he is still behind Armstrong!" Because as far as GOAT-points go, Armstrong is so far off the list every toddler on a tricycle is above him. Same is true for the imbecile. Have you touched SC2 and found the A-move button? Yes? Great, you are a higher-rated GOAT-candidate than Life, have fun with that \ o /
Doping gives you an unfair advantage over other players. That’s why someone like Lance Armstrong gets removed from all-time great lists—not because he cheated once, but because his entire performance was artificially enhanced. He won races because he doped. His victories were directly the result of cheating, which makes his stats essentially meaningless.
Match-fixing is different. It’s obviously unethical and deeply damaging to the integrity of the game, but it doesn’t enhance performance—in fact, it often requires the player to intentionally lose games. If anything, it puts the player at a disadvantage in terms of results. That means the games they actually won (while not fixing) are still statistically relevant. They didn’t win because they cheated; they cheated by losing.
Life's match-fixing scandal rightfully damaged his reputation, but it doesn’t invalidate the tournaments he legitimately won. Those wins weren’t the result of him rigging the system to his advantage—they were, if anything, achieved despite the risks and losses tied to fixing.
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Exactly, you could even say we have ppl match fixing today, intentionally playing a race they're worse with for a bit of fun, the difference being no one is making money off of it. Korea got rly offended when naniwa probe rushed in gsl vs. nestea, they want him to do the best for the show, it's called showmanship, or sportsmanship, but the western audience saw this a bit differently. It wasn't even possible to off race in gsl until reynor wanted to do it some years ago.
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EPT
