• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 18:09
CET 00:09
KST 08:09
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13
StarCraft 2
General
Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4) BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win SC2 Proleague Discontinued; SKT, KT, SGK, CJ disband
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night
Brood War
General
The top three worst maps of all time Foreign Brood War BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Data analysis on 70 million replays BW General Discussion
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO16 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile ZeroSpace Megathread The Perfect Game
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Big Programming Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Where to ask questions and add stream? The Automated Ban List
Blogs
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
Physical Exertion During Gam…
TrAiDoS
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1593 users

Artosis: "SC2 is more balanced than Brood War" - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 All
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland26193 Posts
September 21 2024 12:14 GMT
#61
On September 21 2024 20:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2024 16:09 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
On September 21 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:
On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:
On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.


people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up...


I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"...

Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’

I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well…


What's exactly the "repetitive clicking busywork" in BW? It's all either a part of macro or micro skill of the player controlling the units/buildings. The "devil" (skill gap) is exactly in those little details + game understanding.
Weird conversation overall.

The C&C people dislike the BW in base "economy house keeping chores". To see their point: contrast BW's in base economy management with the Red Alert 3 economy management. Contrast what an RA3 player must do to defend an attack on an ore collector versus what a BW player must do when his Mineral and Gas lines get attacked.

SC64 had less of it than BW due to SCVs mining just by being rallied to a mineral patch.

I’d long wondered how they made SC64 even vaguely playable on consoles, and with that a controller lacking a second analogue stick and some of the buttons of today’s stock layouts.

That tweak certainly makes a lot of sense!

Of all the subsequent QoL changes we’ve seen, this is probably the one I think they could have added in Remastered, and possibly should have.

I don’t mind macroing without multiple building selection, zipping around and clicking all over the place, feels pretty good when you get into a flow. Don’t mind not having unlimited unit selection, especially in a game that’s finely balanced by not having it, and bigger, more sophisticated armies being harder to control.

Not being able to rally workers to mine is for me just somewhat irritating. Whether my arbitrary line is between mechanically demanding but enjoyable macro, and repetitive busywork, that crosses it. I’m already hot keying multiple nexuses and queuing manually, or later game bouncing around camera locations to do it. It basically turns one macro cycle into two

I trust I won’t be burned at the stake for heresy for making this observation!
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada17095 Posts
September 21 2024 12:49 GMT
#62
On September 21 2024 21:14 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2024 20:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
On September 21 2024 16:09 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
On September 21 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:
On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:
On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.


people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up...


I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"...

Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’

I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well…


What's exactly the "repetitive clicking busywork" in BW? It's all either a part of macro or micro skill of the player controlling the units/buildings. The "devil" (skill gap) is exactly in those little details + game understanding.
Weird conversation overall.

The C&C people dislike the BW in base "economy house keeping chores". To see their point: contrast BW's in base economy management with the Red Alert 3 economy management. Contrast what an RA3 player must do to defend an attack on an ore collector versus what a BW player must do when his Mineral and Gas lines get attacked.

SC64 had less of it than BW due to SCVs mining just by being rallied to a mineral patch.

I’d long wondered how they made SC64 even vaguely playable on consoles, and with that a controller lacking a second analogue stick and some of the buttons of today’s stock layouts.

That tweak certainly makes a lot of sense!

SC64 is a great game. Tasteless has run SC64 Tourneys. There are unit voice lines but no other voices. This forced the use of text you had to read. It allows you to experience the campaign in a different way.

We used to debate: is Zeratul supposed to be Moses or apostle Thomas or maybe the snake that talked to Eve.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3463 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-21 13:36:19
September 21 2024 13:31 GMT
#63
On September 21 2024 03:03 Pentarp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2024 02:24 ejozl wrote:
On September 21 2024 01:33 Pentarp wrote:
On September 20 2024 04:57 ejozl wrote:
I don't know seems like all the races can win the big tournaments at least in BW. In sc2 Protoss went from being perfectly balanced at 32% of winnings in 2022, then the cabal made the overcharge + disruptor changes and it went to 25% for 2023 and now they failed to make it good again for 2024 and now we're at 20%. Not having won any premier tournament for 2 years.. and going from winning a 1/3rd to 1/5th within a 2 year span. So Protoss at this point is closer to wc3 balance with a race in a similar spot as Undead was for the longest time.

Winning tourneys is a terrible metric for balance, it is highly sensitive to 1 or 2 players, thus making it far less reliable.

And if you remove a race it is far more sensitive to 1, or 2 players.

Ah, what would a balance discussion be without hyperbole?

Hero won 2 tournaments, then came a nerf taking him out of the conversation. Then there was a major terran buff that removed reynor from the conversation. So now terrans and serral can win tournaments, had they kept going in that direction serral would've been removed from the conversation. You see how much effect "minor" balance tweaks do? - we could've been in a situation where maru, clem, serral, reynor, hero and perhaps classic/trap could've been contenders, but instead it's terran town. I see a bigger chance for cure, gumiho and ragnarok winning a tournament than any protoss.

List all the players that have won a premier tournament, going all the way back to the herO win, and you have a pretty large list of players, only 1 being protoss funnily enough. If you think there are no greater Protoss than any of these players, you are pretty daft.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
ScrappyRabbit
Profile Joined March 2016
200 Posts
October 05 2024 06:32 GMT
#64
On September 13 2024 03:43 WombaT wrote:
I must say I never really noticed any appreciable drop off in ‘Tasteless and Artosis talk about Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles for 3 minutes’ style chatter.

Provided it wasn’t over the top of something impactful happening I myself quite liked it and felt it added to the charm of that duo.


It was definitely something we lost a lot of because of the faster starts in LOTV. In WOL or HOTS, if there was no proxy, it was time to just let Tastosis cook.
Prev 1 2 3 4 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Patches Events
23:00
5.4k Patch Clash #9
Liquipedia
BSL 21
20:00
RO16: Group D
Bonyth vs StRyKeR
Tarson vs Dandy
ZZZero.O349
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft291
Liquid`TLO 257
elazer 179
ProTech123
CosmosSc2 117
SpeCial 5
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 573
ZZZero.O 396
Artosis 237
NaDa 15
Dota 2
Dendi1579
syndereN548
LuMiX1
League of Legends
Nathanias31
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor198
Other Games
Grubby6778
shahzam505
Mew2King84
XaKoH 79
Maynarde12
fpsfer 2
Organizations
Other Games
EGCTV2647
gamesdonequick1703
BasetradeTV10
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 58
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler102
League of Legends
• Doublelift3426
Other Games
• imaqtpie2207
• Shiphtur250
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
9h 51m
Wardi Open
12h 51m
StarCraft2.fi
16h 51m
Monday Night Weeklies
17h 51m
Replay Cast
1d
WardiTV 2025
1d 12h
StarCraft2.fi
1d 16h
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
StarCraft2.fi
2 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
3 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
3 days
WardiTV 2025
3 days
StarCraft2.fi
3 days
WardiTV 2025
4 days
StarCraft2.fi
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
IPSL
5 days
Sziky vs JDConan
RSL Revival
6 days
Classic vs TBD
herO vs Zoun
WardiTV 2025
6 days
IPSL
6 days
Tarson vs DragOn
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-12-04
RSL Revival: Season 3
Light HT

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
Acropolis #4 - TS3
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
Kuram Kup
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
RSL Offline Finals
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.