• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:36
CEST 11:36
KST 18:36
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy5uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event14Serral wins EWC 202549Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple5SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments5[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy Lambo Talks: The Future of SC2 and more... uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SEL Masters #5 - Korea vs Russia (SC Evo) Enki Epic Series #5 - TaeJa vs Classic (SC Evo) ByuN vs TaeJa Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Global Tourney for College Students in September
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather
Brood War
General
New season has just come in ladder ASL20 Pre-season Tier List ranking! BSL Polish World Championship 2025 20-21 September BW General Discussion ASL Season 20 Ro24 Groups
Tourneys
KCM 2025 Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI Bitcoin discussion thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Gaming After Dark: Poor Slee…
TrAiDoS
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 514 users

Artosis: "SC2 is more balanced than Brood War"

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Normal
StarcraftHistorian
Profile Joined November 2022
United States143 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-11 15:07:59
September 11 2024 15:07 GMT
#1
I don't need to tell you all that (Wiki)Artosis is one of the people I have wanted to interview since I started this foray into content creation. Dan is one of the voices that brought StarCraft to the west, and it was an absolute honor working with him. I hope you all enjoy this chat with one of the Mount Rushmore figures of this community!



Check out my full catalog of work here: https://starcrafthistorian.com/
Support my channel here: https://www.patreon.com/StarcraftHistorian

Find Artosis here:
Artosis' Twitter: https://twitter.com/Artosis
Artosis' Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/artosis
Artosis' YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ArtosisTV

SCHistorian Twitter: https://twitter.com/SC2Historian
Psyonic_Reaver
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4336 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-11 19:29:16
September 11 2024 16:46 GMT
#2
The imbalances of each race is what makes Brood War so much fun to watch.

SC2 is pretty balanced... but it's so, so, so bland.

My personal opinion anyways.

Edit: this is a very great interview. Loved the bit about the volatility in esports. Good question.
So wait? I'm bad? =(
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16711 Posts
September 11 2024 17:24 GMT
#3
For me, the game only needs to be somewhat balanced. Deep racial diversity guarantees some degree of imbalance at certain levels of play.

Deep racial diversity is more important than a tightly balanced game.

I just accept the fact that my Zerg is ranked higher than my Terran. Meh.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Expensive-Law-9830
Profile Joined April 2024
130 Posts
September 11 2024 18:34 GMT
#4
You guys are really grasping on the last straw

User was warned for this post
StarcraftHistorian
Profile Joined November 2022
United States143 Posts
September 11 2024 18:55 GMT
#5
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?
Balnazza
Profile Joined January 2018
Germany1181 Posts
September 11 2024 20:26 GMT
#6
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"
"Wenn die Zauberin runter geht, dann macht sie die Beine breit" - Khaldor, trying to cast WC3 German-only
Expensive-Law-9830
Profile Joined April 2024
130 Posts
September 11 2024 20:35 GMT
#7
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.
StarcraftHistorian
Profile Joined November 2022
United States143 Posts
September 11 2024 21:19 GMT
#8
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.


Lmao, what a goofy ass dude you are
StarcraftHistorian
Profile Joined November 2022
United States143 Posts
September 11 2024 21:20 GMT
#9
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


Yeah you hit the nail on the head there
Balnazza
Profile Joined January 2018
Germany1181 Posts
September 11 2024 21:55 GMT
#10
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.


Y'know, I explained you already, there wasn't any need to proof my point THAT hard ._.
"Wenn die Zauberin runter geht, dann macht sie die Beine breit" - Khaldor, trying to cast WC3 German-only
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10344 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-12 01:10:43
September 12 2024 01:08 GMT
#11
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game


Ah yes, that indeed is a great reason contributing to SC2 not catching on as big as BW in KR!

Btw great post - will work very well as a copy pasta template
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
johnnyh123
Profile Joined February 2023
124 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-12 06:59:30
September 12 2024 06:56 GMT
#12
Simple, Day9 and Artosis are the best commentators for English SC2. But Artosis stayed with the game and carried it from the beginning till almost the end. Sort of wished he stayed in GSL for a bit longer like Tasteless, but understand his financial and family situation.

Artosis actually could be up there with the GOATs of SC2 for his impact on the game, especially for English viewership. Just miles better than any casters we have nowadays (no offense to our casters today, who are usually very biased for their favorite players and descriptive, vs less biased and more prescriptive & predictive like Artosis).
spity
Profile Joined September 2008
Norway6 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-12 07:24:52
September 12 2024 07:23 GMT
#13
Had to log in for the first time in a long time to say great work man!
JJAEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOONG
StarcraftHistorian
Profile Joined November 2022
United States143 Posts
September 12 2024 07:30 GMT
#14
On September 12 2024 16:23 spity wrote:
Had to log in for the first time in a long time to say great work man!


Oh shucks, well thanks man, I really appreciate it. It would be hard to not make a good piece when Artosis is the guest =D
Creager
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1895 Posts
September 12 2024 09:11 GMT
#15
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.


Lmao and here I thought we were already waaaaay past this BW vs SC2 elitism bs.
... einmal mit Profis spielen!
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25431 Posts
September 12 2024 10:59 GMT
#16
A fine interview as ever. I still find it amusing in a duality of man way that Artosis the streamer and Artosis in basically any other setting are like two completely different people
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Balnazza
Profile Joined January 2018
Germany1181 Posts
September 12 2024 12:15 GMT
#17
On September 12 2024 15:56 johnnyh123 wrote:
Simple, Day9 and Artosis are the best commentators for English SC2. But Artosis stayed with the game and carried it from the beginning till almost the end. Sort of wished he stayed in GSL for a bit longer like Tasteless, but understand his financial and family situation.

Artosis actually could be up there with the GOATs of SC2 for his impact on the game, especially for English viewership. Just miles better than any casters we have nowadays (no offense to our casters today, who are usually very biased for their favorite players and descriptive, vs less biased and more prescriptive & predictive like Artosis).


I wouldn't go into the "who are the better casters"-debate, since that is so much more biased than even the GOAT-debate, but it is undoubtetly true that Artosis did a lot for SC2. A contribution often overlooked, as is it with all contributions that aren't just players.
"Wenn die Zauberin runter geht, dann macht sie die Beine breit" - Khaldor, trying to cast WC3 German-only
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25431 Posts
September 12 2024 12:36 GMT
#18
On September 12 2024 21:15 Balnazza wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2024 15:56 johnnyh123 wrote:
Simple, Day9 and Artosis are the best commentators for English SC2. But Artosis stayed with the game and carried it from the beginning till almost the end. Sort of wished he stayed in GSL for a bit longer like Tasteless, but understand his financial and family situation.

Artosis actually could be up there with the GOATs of SC2 for his impact on the game, especially for English viewership. Just miles better than any casters we have nowadays (no offense to our casters today, who are usually very biased for their favorite players and descriptive, vs less biased and more prescriptive & predictive like Artosis).


I wouldn't go into the "who are the better casters"-debate, since that is so much more biased than even the GOAT-debate, but it is undoubtetly true that Artosis did a lot for SC2. A contribution often overlooked, as is it with all contributions that aren't just players.

Aye, plus he did a lot of out of game content too. Be it hosting various shows or appearing on others. Even the lesser-heralded ones like In Depth I feel added to my enjoyment of this shared hobby of ours
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5595 Posts
September 12 2024 12:54 GMT
#19
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"

Thanks for translate.
"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
Artanis[Xp]
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
Netherlands12968 Posts
September 12 2024 14:21 GMT
#20
On September 12 2024 19:59 WombaT wrote:
A fine interview as ever. I still find it amusing in a duality of man way that Artosis the streamer and Artosis in basically any other setting are like two completely different people

I shared an apartment with Artosis at WCG Monza at ShuN's place which, each day, had more and more people staying overnight. You basically had to rush to sleep to have a bed with how many people were staying over. He was truly living the dream. Woke up with a massive grin on his face during breakfast (which, if I recall correctly, was just a bunch of croissants and oranges). He's definitely a passionate guy.
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16711 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-12 17:16:36
September 12 2024 16:57 GMT
#21
When Artosis brings his A-game he is a great commentator. However, I recall many midweek GSL RO16 group play matches where he and Tasteless giggled for several minutes about an inside joke while game deciding critical actions were happening.
As soon as the GSL's days were numbered Tastosis immediately commentated everything with 100% professionalism almost like they were auditioning for their next job.

Over all, Artosis was very good and he was great at high profile events.

Like most tech workers I only do about 15 hours of real work per week at my job so who am I to criticize?
On September 12 2024 19:59 WombaT wrote:
A fine interview as ever. I still find it amusing in a duality of man way that Artosis the streamer and Artosis in basically any other setting are like two completely different people

It is fascinating.

All people possess this aspect and they get displayed during and around competitive sports and esports. Think Carl Jung sub-personalities.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15963 Posts
September 12 2024 17:39 GMT
#22
On September 13 2024 01:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
When Artosis brings his A-game he is a great commentator. However, I recall many midweek GSL RO16 group play matches where he and Tasteless giggled for several minutes about an inside joke while game deciding critical actions were happening.

That was at least 60% of the reason I and many others tuned into the midweek GSL RO16 groups
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16711 Posts
September 12 2024 18:17 GMT
#23
On September 13 2024 02:39 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2024 01:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
When Artosis brings his A-game he is a great commentator. However, I recall many midweek GSL RO16 group play matches where he and Tasteless giggled for several minutes about an inside joke while game deciding critical actions were happening.

That was at least 60% of the reason I and many others tuned into the midweek GSL RO16 groups

It was such a great content they stopped doing it when the heat got turned up.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25431 Posts
September 12 2024 18:43 GMT
#24
I must say I never really noticed any appreciable drop off in ‘Tasteless and Artosis talk about Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles for 3 minutes’ style chatter.

Provided it wasn’t over the top of something impactful happening I myself quite liked it and felt it added to the charm of that duo.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4197 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-12 19:25:21
September 12 2024 19:25 GMT
#25
utter bollocks

thanks for the interview
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10344 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-12 21:26:03
September 12 2024 21:19 GMT
#26
Awesome interview thanks!

Big props to Artosis for standing by his views on the GOAT.
I do agree that many people aren't really engaging with what he's saying.

It's also really cool that it was asked of Serral and mentioned that if he's not the GOAT, Rogue is.
Many people considered Rogue to have surpassed Maru, shortly before he went to military when he matched Maru's 4 Code S wins (plus his other Super wins, and 3 WC tier wins).
After Rogue left, no one was really left to reliably stop Maru, and he won his 5th Code S onwards. Almost everyone unanimously considered Maru > Rogue from that point on.

We knew though that GSL had been downsizing more and more rapidly, and with hindsight we can confirm its effects. Most of Maru's recent Code S wins happened after the point GSL moved to being mostly online with a sharp drop in prize pool. I don't count those for much - especially when the reason Rogue hasn't been able to win more is because he can't compete due to military. Maybe 3 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2020 and 2 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2022 before it went online and prize pool hugely dropped. Even factoring that in, Rogue winning 3 WC tier events is of such a high accomplishment that to me, Maru's other results don't add up to. Serral, Rogue, and sOs are the only ones able to achieve 3 WC tier wins. If sOs was able to win 3 Code S in say 2014, 2016, and 2017 he would be in the GOAT discussion along with Serral Rogue and Maru, with a strong argument for #1 due to dominating in the strongest era and having both WC and Code S wins.

Not to derail the topic, but I really respect Artosis for sharing his honest opinion despite all the backlash and personal attacks on him which is very toxic and disappointing to see.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
rwala
Profile Joined December 2019
297 Posts
September 13 2024 01:25 GMT
#27
Great interview!
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15963 Posts
September 13 2024 02:37 GMT
#28
On September 13 2024 06:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Awesome interview thanks!

Big props to Artosis for standing by his views on the GOAT.
I do agree that many people aren't really engaging with what he's saying.

It's also really cool that it was asked of Serral and mentioned that if he's not the GOAT, Rogue is.
Many people considered Rogue to have surpassed Maru, shortly before he went to military when he matched Maru's 4 Code S wins (plus his other Super wins, and 3 WC tier wins).
After Rogue left, no one was really left to reliably stop Maru, and he won his 5th Code S onwards. Almost everyone unanimously considered Maru > Rogue from that point on.

We knew though that GSL had been downsizing more and more rapidly, and with hindsight we can confirm its effects. Most of Maru's recent Code S wins happened after the point GSL moved to being mostly online with a sharp drop in prize pool. I don't count those for much - especially when the reason Rogue hasn't been able to win more is because he can't compete due to military. Maybe 3 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2020 and 2 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2022 before it went online and prize pool hugely dropped. Even factoring that in, Rogue winning 3 WC tier events is of such a high accomplishment that to me, Maru's other results don't add up to. Serral, Rogue, and sOs are the only ones able to achieve 3 WC tier wins. If sOs was able to win 3 Code S in say 2014, 2016, and 2017 he would be in the GOAT discussion along with Serral Rogue and Maru, with a strong argument for #1 due to dominating in the strongest era and having both WC and Code S wins.

Not to derail the topic, but I really respect Artosis for sharing his honest opinion despite all the backlash and personal attacks on him which is very toxic and disappointing to see.

One could argue though that the 2 Starleagues Maru won in 2013 and 2015 are also worth much more than Rogue's GSLs and that cancels out Maru's recent GSLs being worth less.

Anyway, I agree that Artosis case for Rogue is pretty sound. I don't agree with it but he has solid arguments - he clarified his criteria which aren't too unreasonable imo, and sticked to them.
90% of the people disagreeing with him on reddit/TL have worse arguments for their favorite player and thus should keep their mouth shut
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10344 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-13 03:40:40
September 13 2024 03:39 GMT
#29
On September 13 2024 11:37 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2024 06:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Awesome interview thanks!

Big props to Artosis for standing by his views on the GOAT.
I do agree that many people aren't really engaging with what he's saying.

It's also really cool that it was asked of Serral and mentioned that if he's not the GOAT, Rogue is.
Many people considered Rogue to have surpassed Maru, shortly before he went to military when he matched Maru's 4 Code S wins (plus his other Super wins, and 3 WC tier wins).
After Rogue left, no one was really left to reliably stop Maru, and he won his 5th Code S onwards. Almost everyone unanimously considered Maru > Rogue from that point on.

We knew though that GSL had been downsizing more and more rapidly, and with hindsight we can confirm its effects. Most of Maru's recent Code S wins happened after the point GSL moved to being mostly online with a sharp drop in prize pool. I don't count those for much - especially when the reason Rogue hasn't been able to win more is because he can't compete due to military. Maybe 3 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2020 and 2 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2022 before it went online and prize pool hugely dropped. Even factoring that in, Rogue winning 3 WC tier events is of such a high accomplishment that to me, Maru's other results don't add up to. Serral, Rogue, and sOs are the only ones able to achieve 3 WC tier wins. If sOs was able to win 3 Code S in say 2014, 2016, and 2017 he would be in the GOAT discussion along with Serral Rogue and Maru, with a strong argument for #1 due to dominating in the strongest era and having both WC and Code S wins.

Not to derail the topic, but I really respect Artosis for sharing his honest opinion despite all the backlash and personal attacks on him which is very toxic and disappointing to see.

One could argue though that the 2 Starleagues Maru won in 2013 and 2015 are also worth much more than Rogue's GSLs and that cancels out Maru's recent GSLs being worth less.

Anyway, I agree that Artosis case for Rogue is pretty sound. I don't agree with it but he has solid arguments - he clarified his criteria which aren't too unreasonable imo, and sticked to them.
90% of the people disagreeing with him on reddit/TL have worse arguments for their favorite player and thus should keep their mouth shut


Glad it's not just me who thinks his argument is actually not very unreasonable ! (And definitely much better than many arguments people use on reddit/TL). He gave a very simple criteria and his definition of what GOAT is and he's able to sum it up in like 20 seconds now lol.

And true the 2 Starleagues is really good especially during the most competitive era. Really comes down to how much you weigh Starleagues vs GSL vs WCs etc. as usual. Most people lean on Maru > Rogue but I think when it comes to those who have the "minimum requirements" to be GOAT that people have mostly settled on (WC wins, KIL wins, dominating for more than a couple years etc.) Rogue is the only other who hits all those marks and should definitely not be left out of discussions. Serral being the WC + foreign tournaments extreme, Maru the GSL extreme, and Rogue a balance of both.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25431 Posts
September 13 2024 07:10 GMT
#30
On September 13 2024 12:39 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2024 11:37 Charoisaur wrote:
On September 13 2024 06:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Awesome interview thanks!

Big props to Artosis for standing by his views on the GOAT.
I do agree that many people aren't really engaging with what he's saying.

It's also really cool that it was asked of Serral and mentioned that if he's not the GOAT, Rogue is.
Many people considered Rogue to have surpassed Maru, shortly before he went to military when he matched Maru's 4 Code S wins (plus his other Super wins, and 3 WC tier wins).
After Rogue left, no one was really left to reliably stop Maru, and he won his 5th Code S onwards. Almost everyone unanimously considered Maru > Rogue from that point on.

We knew though that GSL had been downsizing more and more rapidly, and with hindsight we can confirm its effects. Most of Maru's recent Code S wins happened after the point GSL moved to being mostly online with a sharp drop in prize pool. I don't count those for much - especially when the reason Rogue hasn't been able to win more is because he can't compete due to military. Maybe 3 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2020 and 2 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2022 before it went online and prize pool hugely dropped. Even factoring that in, Rogue winning 3 WC tier events is of such a high accomplishment that to me, Maru's other results don't add up to. Serral, Rogue, and sOs are the only ones able to achieve 3 WC tier wins. If sOs was able to win 3 Code S in say 2014, 2016, and 2017 he would be in the GOAT discussion along with Serral Rogue and Maru, with a strong argument for #1 due to dominating in the strongest era and having both WC and Code S wins.

Not to derail the topic, but I really respect Artosis for sharing his honest opinion despite all the backlash and personal attacks on him which is very toxic and disappointing to see.

One could argue though that the 2 Starleagues Maru won in 2013 and 2015 are also worth much more than Rogue's GSLs and that cancels out Maru's recent GSLs being worth less.

Anyway, I agree that Artosis case for Rogue is pretty sound. I don't agree with it but he has solid arguments - he clarified his criteria which aren't too unreasonable imo, and sticked to them.
90% of the people disagreeing with him on reddit/TL have worse arguments for their favorite player and thus should keep their mouth shut


Glad it's not just me who thinks his argument is actually not very unreasonable ! (And definitely much better than many arguments people use on reddit/TL). He gave a very simple criteria and his definition of what GOAT is and he's able to sum it up in like 20 seconds now lol.

And true the 2 Starleagues is really good especially during the most competitive era. Really comes down to how much you weigh Starleagues vs GSL vs WCs etc. as usual. Most people lean on Maru > Rogue but I think when it comes to those who have the "minimum requirements" to be GOAT that people have mostly settled on (WC wins, KIL wins, dominating for more than a couple years etc.) Rogue is the only other who hits all those marks and should definitely not be left out of discussions. Serral being the WC + foreign tournaments extreme, Maru the GSL extreme, and Rogue a balance of both.

I just find it difficult to come up with a formula where he’s ahead of both Maru and Serral

Serral’s got his results and ridiculous numbers. If someone wants to weigh them low versus the Kespa era that’s their prerogative, but then Maru stacks up very favourably against Rogue in that time. And quite a few other players too.

Of those two competitors one has the tournament wins in the Kespa era box ticked that he doesn’t. The other has similar WC accomplishments, better international tourney results, but doesn’t have the GSLs. But if you wanna weigh GSLs higher the other other guy also has him beat on that

I mean if you want your GOAT to have won both GSL and WCs and that’s the pre-requisite I suppose one can do that way!

I’d still pick Rogue quite high nonetheless. For obvious reasons. Just people can’t make the ‘it isn’t the highest competitive era’ argument against Serral and not have it count against most of Rogue’s achievements too
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10344 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-13 08:37:33
September 13 2024 08:05 GMT
#31
On September 13 2024 16:10 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2024 12:39 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On September 13 2024 11:37 Charoisaur wrote:
On September 13 2024 06:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Awesome interview thanks!

Big props to Artosis for standing by his views on the GOAT.
I do agree that many people aren't really engaging with what he's saying.

It's also really cool that it was asked of Serral and mentioned that if he's not the GOAT, Rogue is.
Many people considered Rogue to have surpassed Maru, shortly before he went to military when he matched Maru's 4 Code S wins (plus his other Super wins, and 3 WC tier wins).
After Rogue left, no one was really left to reliably stop Maru, and he won his 5th Code S onwards. Almost everyone unanimously considered Maru > Rogue from that point on.

We knew though that GSL had been downsizing more and more rapidly, and with hindsight we can confirm its effects. Most of Maru's recent Code S wins happened after the point GSL moved to being mostly online with a sharp drop in prize pool. I don't count those for much - especially when the reason Rogue hasn't been able to win more is because he can't compete due to military. Maybe 3 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2020 and 2 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2022 before it went online and prize pool hugely dropped. Even factoring that in, Rogue winning 3 WC tier events is of such a high accomplishment that to me, Maru's other results don't add up to. Serral, Rogue, and sOs are the only ones able to achieve 3 WC tier wins. If sOs was able to win 3 Code S in say 2014, 2016, and 2017 he would be in the GOAT discussion along with Serral Rogue and Maru, with a strong argument for #1 due to dominating in the strongest era and having both WC and Code S wins.

Not to derail the topic, but I really respect Artosis for sharing his honest opinion despite all the backlash and personal attacks on him which is very toxic and disappointing to see.

One could argue though that the 2 Starleagues Maru won in 2013 and 2015 are also worth much more than Rogue's GSLs and that cancels out Maru's recent GSLs being worth less.

Anyway, I agree that Artosis case for Rogue is pretty sound. I don't agree with it but he has solid arguments - he clarified his criteria which aren't too unreasonable imo, and sticked to them.
90% of the people disagreeing with him on reddit/TL have worse arguments for their favorite player and thus should keep their mouth shut


Glad it's not just me who thinks his argument is actually not very unreasonable ! (And definitely much better than many arguments people use on reddit/TL). He gave a very simple criteria and his definition of what GOAT is and he's able to sum it up in like 20 seconds now lol.

And true the 2 Starleagues is really good especially during the most competitive era. Really comes down to how much you weigh Starleagues vs GSL vs WCs etc. as usual. Most people lean on Maru > Rogue but I think when it comes to those who have the "minimum requirements" to be GOAT that people have mostly settled on (WC wins, KIL wins, dominating for more than a couple years etc.) Rogue is the only other who hits all those marks and should definitely not be left out of discussions. Serral being the WC + foreign tournaments extreme, Maru the GSL extreme, and Rogue a balance of both.

I just find it difficult to come up with a formula where he’s ahead of both Maru and Serral

Serral’s got his results and ridiculous numbers. If someone wants to weigh them low versus the Kespa era that’s their prerogative, but then Maru stacks up very favourably against Rogue in that time. And quite a few other players too.

Of those two competitors one has the tournament wins in the Kespa era box ticked that he doesn’t. The other has similar WC accomplishments, better international tourney results, but doesn’t have the GSLs. But if you wanna weigh GSLs higher the other other guy also has him beat on that

I mean if you want your GOAT to have won both GSL and WCs and that’s the pre-requisite I suppose one can do that way!

I’d still pick Rogue quite high nonetheless. For obvious reasons. Just people can’t make the ‘it isn’t the highest competitive era’ argument against Serral and not have it count against most of Rogue’s achievements too


The formula for Rogue I have in my head if I were to put him higher is like this:
Serral dominates at the biggest stage (international WC tournaments), but lacks Code S wins (not a big deal for Serral ofc)
Maru dominates in KR, but fails to win at the biggest stage (international WC tournaments), so his achievements is lacking something significant. You could take the angle that his 2 Starleague wins in HoTs were the biggest stage in the most competitive era though of course (before international WC tournaments became the biggest), and maybe even say that Maru peaked in HotS and what we're seeing now is him just dominating a much weaker GSL scene

Rogue matched Maru's 4 Code S wins in 2022. They were pretty much equal on that.
Maru's 5th Code S win was after Rogue left for military.
Maru's 6th-8th Code S wins were with the online and/or hugely downsized GSL with crowdfunded prizepool.
Rogue was not able to compete during Maru's 5th-8th Code S. This is a huge factor because while you can say on paper that Maru has the better GSL achievements, when we're talking about GOAT we have to consider the circumstances the players are in and how they performed. Rogue legally literally could not perform / rack up any more wins while Maru could simply due to him being older and having to go to military sooner.
So to me, Maru's 5th-8th wins in the context of GOAT discussion (whether he's GOAT over Serral or Rogue) has a huge asterisk because Rogue wasn't even there to stop him.

But at best, you could say Rogue's Code S performance is equal to Maru. And at worst, Maru's Code S performances is valued more even if Rogue had to miss out due to military. The remaining argument for Rogue would simply be that he was able to succeed on the biggest stage (international WC tournaments in the modern era where they are bigger than KIL), not once but three times where Maru failed to do so a single time. That's a huge thing that Rogue has over Maru to me, even if Maru won even more KIL it would still be weird to me to lack a single WC tier win.

So placing Rogue over Maru would be valuing WC and Code S in a middleground way:
-WC valued a bit more than Code S, but Code S is not so much less that Serral would then trump Rogue. Probably 1 WC (2017-2024) = 1.5 Code S (2017-2022).
-Code S and Starleagues are valued, but not glorified so much that they can make up for a total lack of WC wins when the other 2 contenders Serral and Rogue have 3 showing that it can be done, and sOs who is much lower
-Also valuing a balance of results in international vs KIL, weekender vs prep format, being able to succeed in all of those which Rogue has done, but Serral and Maru haven't proven it.

If i were to compare the results 1:1 this is about how I'd stack it up:
Rogue's 4 Code S in 2018-2022 = Maru's 4 Code S in 2018-2022
Rogue's 3 Supers = Maru's 5th Code S in 2022 + 1 Super + 1 heavily downsized Code S in 2023-2024
Rogue's 3 WC tier >= Maru's 1 weak WC tier (WESG) + 2 KIL during peak competitive era + his other 2 heavily downsized Code S in 2023-2024
Rogue's Proleague < Maru's Proleague, but I don't value team results much when it comes to GOAT, and they were both top Proleague players so it wasn't a huge difference in the grand scheme


I would still put Serral as GOAT on my list currently (would have been way easier if he finished strong by winning EWC this year), but I'm like 55:45 on putting Rogue above Maru because WC wins are really big to me as they are the biggest tournies especially if we're talking about having 3 while the other has 0. It's really a pity sOs was not able to win even 2 Code S during 2013-2017, as if he did he would in my book shoot up to being above Innovation/MVP/Dark and being #2-4, with a 3rd Code S win would put him in strong contention be #1.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
September 13 2024 10:29 GMT
#32
Do you really think that comparison will make things better ?
KingzTig
Profile Joined February 2024
155 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-13 12:07:08
September 13 2024 12:06 GMT
#33
On September 13 2024 03:43 WombaT wrote:
I must say I never really noticed any appreciable drop off in ‘Tasteless and Artosis talk about Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles for 3 minutes’ style chatter.

Provided it wasn’t over the top of something impactful happening I myself quite liked it and felt it added to the charm of that duo.

it's truly a shame we don't get more collab for them streaming together. they got such a nice brand going, never understood why they never kept building it out beyond casting
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25431 Posts
September 13 2024 12:45 GMT
#34
On September 13 2024 21:06 KingzTig wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2024 03:43 WombaT wrote:
I must say I never really noticed any appreciable drop off in ‘Tasteless and Artosis talk about Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles for 3 minutes’ style chatter.

Provided it wasn’t over the top of something impactful happening I myself quite liked it and felt it added to the charm of that duo.

it's truly a shame we don't get more collab for them streaming together. they got such a nice brand going, never understood why they never kept building it out beyond casting

Yeah it really feels they built their individual brands as that partnership but haven’t really leveraged it since
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Moonerz
Profile Joined March 2014
United States445 Posts
September 13 2024 14:25 GMT
#35
I think regardless of if you agree with Arty, he is making an argument for one of the three "accepted" possible goats. It's a thought out opinion and should be respected as such, especially given his stature in the scene.

His thoughts on balance I do agree with. It's basically the same across all genres, the older games are more imba but people adapt/accept these imbalances. I don't think it's controversial to say sf6 is better balanced than third strike. Ofc better balance doesn't mean the game is outright better though

Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15963 Posts
September 13 2024 16:11 GMT
#36
On September 13 2024 16:10 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2024 12:39 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On September 13 2024 11:37 Charoisaur wrote:
On September 13 2024 06:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Awesome interview thanks!

Big props to Artosis for standing by his views on the GOAT.
I do agree that many people aren't really engaging with what he's saying.

It's also really cool that it was asked of Serral and mentioned that if he's not the GOAT, Rogue is.
Many people considered Rogue to have surpassed Maru, shortly before he went to military when he matched Maru's 4 Code S wins (plus his other Super wins, and 3 WC tier wins).
After Rogue left, no one was really left to reliably stop Maru, and he won his 5th Code S onwards. Almost everyone unanimously considered Maru > Rogue from that point on.

We knew though that GSL had been downsizing more and more rapidly, and with hindsight we can confirm its effects. Most of Maru's recent Code S wins happened after the point GSL moved to being mostly online with a sharp drop in prize pool. I don't count those for much - especially when the reason Rogue hasn't been able to win more is because he can't compete due to military. Maybe 3 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2020 and 2 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2022 before it went online and prize pool hugely dropped. Even factoring that in, Rogue winning 3 WC tier events is of such a high accomplishment that to me, Maru's other results don't add up to. Serral, Rogue, and sOs are the only ones able to achieve 3 WC tier wins. If sOs was able to win 3 Code S in say 2014, 2016, and 2017 he would be in the GOAT discussion along with Serral Rogue and Maru, with a strong argument for #1 due to dominating in the strongest era and having both WC and Code S wins.

Not to derail the topic, but I really respect Artosis for sharing his honest opinion despite all the backlash and personal attacks on him which is very toxic and disappointing to see.

One could argue though that the 2 Starleagues Maru won in 2013 and 2015 are also worth much more than Rogue's GSLs and that cancels out Maru's recent GSLs being worth less.

Anyway, I agree that Artosis case for Rogue is pretty sound. I don't agree with it but he has solid arguments - he clarified his criteria which aren't too unreasonable imo, and sticked to them.
90% of the people disagreeing with him on reddit/TL have worse arguments for their favorite player and thus should keep their mouth shut


Glad it's not just me who thinks his argument is actually not very unreasonable ! (And definitely much better than many arguments people use on reddit/TL). He gave a very simple criteria and his definition of what GOAT is and he's able to sum it up in like 20 seconds now lol.

And true the 2 Starleagues is really good especially during the most competitive era. Really comes down to how much you weigh Starleagues vs GSL vs WCs etc. as usual. Most people lean on Maru > Rogue but I think when it comes to those who have the "minimum requirements" to be GOAT that people have mostly settled on (WC wins, KIL wins, dominating for more than a couple years etc.) Rogue is the only other who hits all those marks and should definitely not be left out of discussions. Serral being the WC + foreign tournaments extreme, Maru the GSL extreme, and Rogue a balance of both.


I mean if you want your GOAT to have won both GSL and WCs and that’s the pre-requisite I suppose one can do that way!


Yeah that's basically Artosis argument. And I don't think it's too unreasonable if you use achievements to determine the Goat.
GSL and Katowice/Blizzcon are historically the most prestigious tournaments so it's quite a big gap in your resumee if you're missing one of them. Also there's the preperation tournament vs weekender factor as Rogue is the only one out of the Goat candidates to have massive successes in both formats.

The reason why Rogue can't be the Goat imo is more of subjective nature. He played throughout the Kespa era and didn't win anything and only started winning once the competition got a lot thinner. That makes it impossible for me to call him the Goat, Serral at least has the excuse of not being fulltime back then so we can always ask ourselves 'what if...'.

If we just looked at achievements and disregarded competitive strength I think I'd be inclined to agree with Artosis that Rogue may be the Goat (definitely at the point he left for military, maybe not anymore with Serral's recent dominance)
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3390 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-13 17:29:54
September 13 2024 17:27 GMT
#37
Yay GOAT debate revived after it was decidedly killed!

I think it's a lazy argument that because rogue has both apples and oranges that, that puts him above twice the number of apples or oranges. If anything that puts him at a certain no.2 depending on which is worth more the apples or the oranges.

To the fact that rogue played during kespa and didn't achieve results, I don't like this argument personally. I think it shouldn't matter if a player was even playing at bronze lvl for 5 years straight, what matters is the time that he 'got it', the time that puts him in the conversation to begin with. However bad Rogue might've been, his results can only be a boon for his career and not the opposite. Sos' lotv results has been used against him, when in fact it should speak for him. Just like that if MVP had continued to play for the rest of sc2, but only would've been able to perform as well as Top that shouldn't speak against his WoL results.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
StarcraftHistorian
Profile Joined November 2022
United States143 Posts
September 14 2024 08:48 GMT
#38
Thanks for all the kind words from so many of you guys!

Also love all the silly debates. Some more liveliness is something we definitely need in the SC community!
czqiang
Profile Joined September 2024
2 Posts
September 14 2024 09:21 GMT
#39
--- Nuked ---
ThunderJunk
Profile Joined December 2015
United States678 Posts
September 15 2024 03:27 GMT
#40
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


Best game is best game. Starcraft Broodwar is that. I don't see a problem here.
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25431 Posts
September 15 2024 09:18 GMT
#41
On September 15 2024 12:27 ThunderJunk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


Best game is best game. Starcraft Broodwar is that. I don't see a problem here.

One can think that without being a pain in the arse about it though
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Balnazza
Profile Joined January 2018
Germany1181 Posts
September 15 2024 11:53 GMT
#42
On September 15 2024 12:27 ThunderJunk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


Best game is best game. Starcraft Broodwar is that. I don't see a problem here.


As I said before: Liking BroodWar is not a personality.
"Wenn die Zauberin runter geht, dann macht sie die Beine breit" - Khaldor, trying to cast WC3 German-only
Volka
Profile Joined December 2010
Argentina409 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-15 21:42:51
September 15 2024 21:41 GMT
#43
This should be quite an uncontroversial statement. Everything in BW is busted. Spells are insanely powerful (storm, plague...) and some units are ridiculously strong (mutas, cracklings). Still, a gem of a game to watch, play and learn.
http://www.starsite.com.ar
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3390 Posts
September 19 2024 19:57 GMT
#44
I don't know seems like all the races can win the big tournaments at least in BW. In sc2 Protoss went from being perfectly balanced at 32% of winnings in 2022, then the cabal made the overcharge + disruptor changes and it went to 25% for 2023 and now they failed to make it good again for 2024 and now we're at 20%. Not having won any premier tournament for 2 years.. and going from winning a 1/3rd to 1/5th within a 2 year span. So Protoss at this point is closer to wc3 balance with a race in a similar spot as Undead was for the longest time.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Navane
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Netherlands2748 Posts
September 20 2024 07:16 GMT
#45
On September 13 2024 21:45 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2024 21:06 KingzTig wrote:
On September 13 2024 03:43 WombaT wrote:
I must say I never really noticed any appreciable drop off in ‘Tasteless and Artosis talk about Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles for 3 minutes’ style chatter.

Provided it wasn’t over the top of something impactful happening I myself quite liked it and felt it added to the charm of that duo.

it's truly a shame we don't get more collab for them streaming together. they got such a nice brand going, never understood why they never kept building it out beyond casting

Yeah it really feels they built their individual brands as that partnership but haven’t really leveraged it since


I always wanted them to commentate more IRL stuff, in their same roles. Imagine them just sitting on the curb commentating people walking by. Seemed ridiculous ten years ago, not so much anymore now.
czqiang
Profile Joined September 2024
2 Posts
September 20 2024 08:25 GMT
#46
--- Nuked ---
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25431 Posts
September 20 2024 11:03 GMT
#47
On September 20 2024 16:16 Navane wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2024 21:45 WombaT wrote:
On September 13 2024 21:06 KingzTig wrote:
On September 13 2024 03:43 WombaT wrote:
I must say I never really noticed any appreciable drop off in ‘Tasteless and Artosis talk about Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles for 3 minutes’ style chatter.

Provided it wasn’t over the top of something impactful happening I myself quite liked it and felt it added to the charm of that duo.

it's truly a shame we don't get more collab for them streaming together. they got such a nice brand going, never understood why they never kept building it out beyond casting

Yeah it really feels they built their individual brands as that partnership but haven’t really leveraged it since


I always wanted them to commentate more IRL stuff, in their same roles. Imagine them just sitting on the curb commentating people walking by. Seemed ridiculous ten years ago, not so much anymore now.

I’d be absolutely down for such content!
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Siz)Beggar
Profile Joined May 2008
United States339 Posts
September 20 2024 15:58 GMT
#48
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.


people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up...
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25431 Posts
September 20 2024 16:02 GMT
#49
On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.


people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up...

How you say something counts for a lot…

'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Pentarp
Profile Joined August 2015
220 Posts
September 20 2024 16:33 GMT
#50
On September 20 2024 04:57 ejozl wrote:
I don't know seems like all the races can win the big tournaments at least in BW. In sc2 Protoss went from being perfectly balanced at 32% of winnings in 2022, then the cabal made the overcharge + disruptor changes and it went to 25% for 2023 and now they failed to make it good again for 2024 and now we're at 20%. Not having won any premier tournament for 2 years.. and going from winning a 1/3rd to 1/5th within a 2 year span. So Protoss at this point is closer to wc3 balance with a race in a similar spot as Undead was for the longest time.

Winning tourneys is a terrible metric for balance, it is highly sensitive to 1 or 2 players, thus making it far less reliable.
Plogamer TL.net RedRocket B.net
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3390 Posts
September 20 2024 17:24 GMT
#51
On September 21 2024 01:33 Pentarp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2024 04:57 ejozl wrote:
I don't know seems like all the races can win the big tournaments at least in BW. In sc2 Protoss went from being perfectly balanced at 32% of winnings in 2022, then the cabal made the overcharge + disruptor changes and it went to 25% for 2023 and now they failed to make it good again for 2024 and now we're at 20%. Not having won any premier tournament for 2 years.. and going from winning a 1/3rd to 1/5th within a 2 year span. So Protoss at this point is closer to wc3 balance with a race in a similar spot as Undead was for the longest time.

Winning tourneys is a terrible metric for balance, it is highly sensitive to 1 or 2 players, thus making it far less reliable.

And if you remove a race it is far more sensitive to 1, or 2 players.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Pentarp
Profile Joined August 2015
220 Posts
September 20 2024 18:03 GMT
#52
On September 21 2024 02:24 ejozl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2024 01:33 Pentarp wrote:
On September 20 2024 04:57 ejozl wrote:
I don't know seems like all the races can win the big tournaments at least in BW. In sc2 Protoss went from being perfectly balanced at 32% of winnings in 2022, then the cabal made the overcharge + disruptor changes and it went to 25% for 2023 and now they failed to make it good again for 2024 and now we're at 20%. Not having won any premier tournament for 2 years.. and going from winning a 1/3rd to 1/5th within a 2 year span. So Protoss at this point is closer to wc3 balance with a race in a similar spot as Undead was for the longest time.

Winning tourneys is a terrible metric for balance, it is highly sensitive to 1 or 2 players, thus making it far less reliable.

And if you remove a race it is far more sensitive to 1, or 2 players.

Ah, what would a balance discussion be without hyperbole?
Plogamer TL.net RedRocket B.net
Balnazza
Profile Joined January 2018
Germany1181 Posts
September 20 2024 21:35 GMT
#53
On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.


people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up...


I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"...
"Wenn die Zauberin runter geht, dann macht sie die Beine breit" - Khaldor, trying to cast WC3 German-only
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25431 Posts
September 20 2024 22:26 GMT
#54
On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.


people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up...


I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"...

Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’

I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well…

'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4197 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-21 07:09:48
September 21 2024 07:09 GMT
#55
On September 21 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:
On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.


people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up...


I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"...

Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’

I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well…


What's exactly the "repetitive clicking busywork" in BW? It's all either a part of macro or micro skill of the player controlling the units/buildings. The "devil" (skill gap) is exactly in those little details + game understanding.

Weird conversation overall.
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
wertgdfgdf
Profile Joined September 2024
2 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-21 08:44:14
September 21 2024 08:34 GMT
#56
--- Nuked ---
Comedy
Profile Joined March 2016
456 Posts
September 21 2024 10:05 GMT
#57
On September 21 2024 17:34 wertgdfgdf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2024 16:09 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
On September 21 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:
On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:
On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.


people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up...


I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"...

Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’

I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well…


What's exactly the "repetitive clicking busywork" in BW? It's all either a part of macro or micro skill of the player controlling the units/buildings. The "devil" (skill gap) is exactly in those little details + game understanding.

Weird conversation overall.

Yeah, the 50 extra clicks it takes to move 5 units up a ramp are definitely not considered "repetitive clicking busywork"

But who can argue against the "ITS JUST SKILL BRO" argument? Man i wish i could see your Game History. Would be funny to expose all the poser


it's such a small part of the game bruh. Open your eyes.
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16711 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-21 12:08:12
September 21 2024 11:59 GMT
#58
On September 21 2024 16:09 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:
On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:
On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.


people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up...


I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"...

Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’

I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well…


What's exactly the "repetitive clicking busywork" in BW? It's all either a part of macro or micro skill of the player controlling the units/buildings. The "devil" (skill gap) is exactly in those little details + game understanding.
Weird conversation overall.

The C&C people dislike the BW in base "economy house keeping chores". To see their point: contrast BW's in base economy management with the Red Alert 3 economy management. Contrast what an RA3 player must do to defend an attack on an ore collector versus what a BW player must do when his Mineral and Gas lines get attacked.

SC64 had less in-base housekeeping than BW due to SCVs mining just by being rallied to a mineral patch.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25431 Posts
September 21 2024 12:02 GMT
#59
On September 21 2024 16:09 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:
On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:
On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.


people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up...


I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"...

Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’

I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well…


What's exactly the "repetitive clicking busywork" in BW? It's all either a part of macro or micro skill of the player controlling the units/buildings. The "devil" (skill gap) is exactly in those little details + game understanding.

Weird conversation overall.

There’s plenty of reasonable arguments to be made that SC2 < BW but ‘repetitive boring mouse clicking’ is not one of them. It’s basically the worst one could pick

Even if you think it adds depth and raises the skill ceiling, there’s still much more of it

It’d be like someone claiming x genre is worse than jazz because it’s full of improvisation and creative noodling, when that’s a hallmark of jazz

Hey I’ve space in my heart for both games, but commented as it’s such a daft thing for that poster to argue
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16711 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-21 12:19:20
September 21 2024 12:12 GMT
#60
On September 21 2024 21:02 WombaT wrote:
Hey I’ve space in my heart for both games, but commented as it’s such a daft thing for that poster to argue

IMO, it is all subjective. Everyone is screaming about how great Warhammer 40K:SM2 is. I tried it for a few hours and refunded it. I do not like the combat. I can see why many people like the combat. It just ain't for me.

For me, SC2 is the best video game of all time. BW is #2.

I know some guys who only want a C&C type economy model. There are others who prefer the Halo Wars 2 economy model. Its their money and their time. These people should do whatever gives them the most fun.

Perhaps we can get some Halo Wars 2 players in here to tell us how SC2 sucks?

Or, maybe someone who thinks EA NHL '94 is great can explain why its almost as good as SC2. Managing line changes and juggling your line up around injuries can be quite a thrilling optimization puzzle while under duress. The King of '94 Event Is Next Weekend!
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25431 Posts
September 21 2024 12:14 GMT
#61
On September 21 2024 20:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2024 16:09 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
On September 21 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:
On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:
On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.


people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up...


I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"...

Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’

I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well…


What's exactly the "repetitive clicking busywork" in BW? It's all either a part of macro or micro skill of the player controlling the units/buildings. The "devil" (skill gap) is exactly in those little details + game understanding.
Weird conversation overall.

The C&C people dislike the BW in base "economy house keeping chores". To see their point: contrast BW's in base economy management with the Red Alert 3 economy management. Contrast what an RA3 player must do to defend an attack on an ore collector versus what a BW player must do when his Mineral and Gas lines get attacked.

SC64 had less of it than BW due to SCVs mining just by being rallied to a mineral patch.

I’d long wondered how they made SC64 even vaguely playable on consoles, and with that a controller lacking a second analogue stick and some of the buttons of today’s stock layouts.

That tweak certainly makes a lot of sense!

Of all the subsequent QoL changes we’ve seen, this is probably the one I think they could have added in Remastered, and possibly should have.

I don’t mind macroing without multiple building selection, zipping around and clicking all over the place, feels pretty good when you get into a flow. Don’t mind not having unlimited unit selection, especially in a game that’s finely balanced by not having it, and bigger, more sophisticated armies being harder to control.

Not being able to rally workers to mine is for me just somewhat irritating. Whether my arbitrary line is between mechanically demanding but enjoyable macro, and repetitive busywork, that crosses it. I’m already hot keying multiple nexuses and queuing manually, or later game bouncing around camera locations to do it. It basically turns one macro cycle into two

I trust I won’t be burned at the stake for heresy for making this observation!
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16711 Posts
September 21 2024 12:49 GMT
#62
On September 21 2024 21:14 WombaT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2024 20:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
On September 21 2024 16:09 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
On September 21 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:
On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:
On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw


Wdym?


He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"


I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.


people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up...


I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"...

Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’

I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well…


What's exactly the "repetitive clicking busywork" in BW? It's all either a part of macro or micro skill of the player controlling the units/buildings. The "devil" (skill gap) is exactly in those little details + game understanding.
Weird conversation overall.

The C&C people dislike the BW in base "economy house keeping chores". To see their point: contrast BW's in base economy management with the Red Alert 3 economy management. Contrast what an RA3 player must do to defend an attack on an ore collector versus what a BW player must do when his Mineral and Gas lines get attacked.

SC64 had less of it than BW due to SCVs mining just by being rallied to a mineral patch.

I’d long wondered how they made SC64 even vaguely playable on consoles, and with that a controller lacking a second analogue stick and some of the buttons of today’s stock layouts.

That tweak certainly makes a lot of sense!

SC64 is a great game. Tasteless has run SC64 Tourneys. There are unit voice lines but no other voices. This forced the use of text you had to read. It allows you to experience the campaign in a different way.

We used to debate: is Zeratul supposed to be Moses or apostle Thomas or maybe the snake that talked to Eve.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3390 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-09-21 13:36:19
September 21 2024 13:31 GMT
#63
On September 21 2024 03:03 Pentarp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2024 02:24 ejozl wrote:
On September 21 2024 01:33 Pentarp wrote:
On September 20 2024 04:57 ejozl wrote:
I don't know seems like all the races can win the big tournaments at least in BW. In sc2 Protoss went from being perfectly balanced at 32% of winnings in 2022, then the cabal made the overcharge + disruptor changes and it went to 25% for 2023 and now they failed to make it good again for 2024 and now we're at 20%. Not having won any premier tournament for 2 years.. and going from winning a 1/3rd to 1/5th within a 2 year span. So Protoss at this point is closer to wc3 balance with a race in a similar spot as Undead was for the longest time.

Winning tourneys is a terrible metric for balance, it is highly sensitive to 1 or 2 players, thus making it far less reliable.

And if you remove a race it is far more sensitive to 1, or 2 players.

Ah, what would a balance discussion be without hyperbole?

Hero won 2 tournaments, then came a nerf taking him out of the conversation. Then there was a major terran buff that removed reynor from the conversation. So now terrans and serral can win tournaments, had they kept going in that direction serral would've been removed from the conversation. You see how much effect "minor" balance tweaks do? - we could've been in a situation where maru, clem, serral, reynor, hero and perhaps classic/trap could've been contenders, but instead it's terran town. I see a bigger chance for cure, gumiho and ragnarok winning a tournament than any protoss.

List all the players that have won a premier tournament, going all the way back to the herO win, and you have a pretty large list of players, only 1 being protoss funnily enough. If you think there are no greater Protoss than any of these players, you are pretty daft.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
ScrappyRabbit
Profile Joined March 2016
200 Posts
October 05 2024 06:32 GMT
#64
On September 13 2024 03:43 WombaT wrote:
I must say I never really noticed any appreciable drop off in ‘Tasteless and Artosis talk about Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles for 3 minutes’ style chatter.

Provided it wasn’t over the top of something impactful happening I myself quite liked it and felt it added to the charm of that duo.


It was definitely something we lost a lot of because of the faster starts in LOTV. In WOL or HOTS, if there was no proxy, it was time to just let Tastosis cook.
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 24m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SC2Nice 53
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 14554
Bisu 805
Jaedong 683
ggaemo 373
actioN 296
Larva 214
Zeus 89
sorry 56
Backho 37
Sharp 35
[ Show more ]
NaDa 27
scan(afreeca) 24
Rush 23
yabsab 22
Aegong 22
Mini 21
soO 14
SilentControl 14
ajuk12(nOOB) 12
Bale 11
Noble 10
IntoTheRainbow 5
Hm[arnc] 4
Dota 2
XaKoH 333
XcaliburYe276
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1323
shoxiejesuss754
allub236
x6flipin0
Other Games
gofns6524
summit1g6386
FrodaN4310
singsing1213
ceh9569
Happy370
Pyrionflax207
Fuzer 141
SortOf57
Mew2King47
rGuardiaN33
QueenE6
ZerO(Twitch)2
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick608
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 25
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta32
• LUISG 19
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 7
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1h 24m
The PondCast
1d
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1d 1h
Replay Cast
1d 14h
LiuLi Cup
2 days
Online Event
3 days
SC Evo League
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
CSO Contender
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Summer Champion…
4 days
SC Evo League
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Sharp vs Ample
Larva vs Stork
Wardi Open
5 days
RotterdaM Event
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
JyJ vs TY
Bisu vs Speed
WardiTV Summer Champion…
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

StarCon 2025 Philadelphia
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

CSL Season 18: Qualifier 1
ASL Season 20
CSLAN 3
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.