|
|
|
The imbalances of each race is what makes Brood War so much fun to watch.
SC2 is pretty balanced... but it's so, so, so bland.
My personal opinion anyways.
Edit: this is a very great interview. Loved the bit about the volatility in esports. Good question.
|
For me, the game only needs to be somewhat balanced. Deep racial diversity guarantees some degree of imbalance at certain levels of play.
Deep racial diversity is more important than a tightly balanced game.
I just accept the fact that my Zerg is ranked higher than my Terran. Meh.
|
You guys are really grasping on the last straw
User was warned for this post
|
On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw
Wdym?
|
On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym?
He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"
|
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"
I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.
|
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga" I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.
Lmao, what a goofy ass dude you are
|
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"
Yeah you hit the nail on the head there
|
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga" I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.
Y'know, I explained you already, there wasn't any need to proof my point THAT hard ._.
|
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game
Ah yes, that indeed is a great reason contributing to SC2 not catching on as big as BW in KR!
Btw great post - will work very well as a copy pasta template
|
Simple, Day9 and Artosis are the best commentators for English SC2. But Artosis stayed with the game and carried it from the beginning till almost the end. Sort of wished he stayed in GSL for a bit longer like Tasteless, but understand his financial and family situation.
Artosis actually could be up there with the GOATs of SC2 for his impact on the game, especially for English viewership. Just miles better than any casters we have nowadays (no offense to our casters today, who are usually very biased for their favorite players and descriptive, vs less biased and more prescriptive & predictive like Artosis).
|
Had to log in for the first time in a long time to say great work man!
|
On September 12 2024 16:23 spity wrote:
Had to log in for the first time in a long time to say great work man!
Oh shucks, well thanks man, I really appreciate it. It would be hard to not make a good piece when Artosis is the guest =D
|
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga" I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.
Lmao and here I thought we were already waaaaay past this BW vs SC2 elitism bs.
|
Northern Ireland24962 Posts
A fine interview as ever. I still find it amusing in a duality of man way that Artosis the streamer and Artosis in basically any other setting are like two completely different people
|
On September 12 2024 15:56 johnnyh123 wrote:
Simple, Day9 and Artosis are the best commentators for English SC2. But Artosis stayed with the game and carried it from the beginning till almost the end. Sort of wished he stayed in GSL for a bit longer like Tasteless, but understand his financial and family situation.
Artosis actually could be up there with the GOATs of SC2 for his impact on the game, especially for English viewership. Just miles better than any casters we have nowadays (no offense to our casters today, who are usually very biased for their favorite players and descriptive, vs less biased and more prescriptive & predictive like Artosis).
I wouldn't go into the "who are the better casters"-debate, since that is so much more biased than even the GOAT-debate, but it is undoubtetly true that Artosis did a lot for SC2. A contribution often overlooked, as is it with all contributions that aren't just players.
|
Northern Ireland24962 Posts
On September 12 2024 21:15 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2024 15:56 johnnyh123 wrote:
Simple, Day9 and Artosis are the best commentators for English SC2. But Artosis stayed with the game and carried it from the beginning till almost the end. Sort of wished he stayed in GSL for a bit longer like Tasteless, but understand his financial and family situation.
Artosis actually could be up there with the GOATs of SC2 for his impact on the game, especially for English viewership. Just miles better than any casters we have nowadays (no offense to our casters today, who are usually very biased for their favorite players and descriptive, vs less biased and more prescriptive & predictive like Artosis). I wouldn't go into the "who are the better casters"-debate, since that is so much more biased than even the GOAT-debate, but it is undoubtetly true that Artosis did a lot for SC2. A contribution often overlooked, as is it with all contributions that aren't just players.
Aye, plus he did a lot of out of game content too. Be it hosting various shows or appearing on others. Even the lesser-heralded ones like In Depth I feel added to my enjoyment of this shared hobby of ours
|
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"
Thanks for translate.
|
On September 12 2024 19:59 WombaT wrote:
A fine interview as ever. I still find it amusing in a duality of man way that Artosis the streamer and Artosis in basically any other setting are like two completely different people
I shared an apartment with Artosis at WCG Monza at ShuN's place which, each day, had more and more people staying overnight. You basically had to rush to sleep to have a bed with how many people were staying over. He was truly living the dream. Woke up with a massive grin on his face during breakfast (which, if I recall correctly, was just a bunch of croissants and oranges). He's definitely a passionate guy.
|
When Artosis brings his A-game he is a great commentator. However, I recall many midweek GSL RO16 group play matches where he and Tasteless giggled for several minutes about an inside joke while game deciding critical actions were happening.
As soon as the GSL's days were numbered Tastosis immediately commentated everything with 100% professionalism almost like they were auditioning for their next job.
Over all, Artosis was very good and he was great at high profile events.
Like most tech workers I only do about 15 hours of real work per week at my job so who am I to criticize?
On September 12 2024 19:59 WombaT wrote:
A fine interview as ever. I still find it amusing in a duality of man way that Artosis the streamer and Artosis in basically any other setting are like two completely different people
It is fascinating.
All people possess this aspect and they get displayed during and around competitive sports and esports. Think Carl Jung sub-personalities.
|
On September 13 2024 01:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
When Artosis brings his A-game he is a great commentator. However, I recall many midweek GSL RO16 group play matches where he and Tasteless giggled for several minutes about an inside joke while game deciding critical actions were happening.
That was at least 60% of the reason I and many others tuned into the midweek GSL RO16 groups
|
On September 13 2024 02:39 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 01:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
When Artosis brings his A-game he is a great commentator. However, I recall many midweek GSL RO16 group play matches where he and Tasteless giggled for several minutes about an inside joke while game deciding critical actions were happening.
That was at least 60% of the reason I and many others tuned into the midweek GSL RO16 groups
It was such a great content they stopped doing it when the heat got turned up.
|
Northern Ireland24962 Posts
I must say I never really noticed any appreciable drop off in ‘Tasteless and Artosis talk about Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles for 3 minutes’ style chatter.
Provided it wasn’t over the top of something impactful happening I myself quite liked it and felt it added to the charm of that duo.
|
utter bollocks
thanks for the interview 
|
Awesome interview thanks!
Big props to Artosis for standing by his views on the GOAT.
I do agree that many people aren't really engaging with what he's saying.
It's also really cool that it was asked of Serral and mentioned that if he's not the GOAT, Rogue is.
Many people considered Rogue to have surpassed Maru, shortly before he went to military when he matched Maru's 4 Code S wins (plus his other Super wins, and 3 WC tier wins).
After Rogue left, no one was really left to reliably stop Maru, and he won his 5th Code S onwards. Almost everyone unanimously considered Maru > Rogue from that point on.
We knew though that GSL had been downsizing more and more rapidly, and with hindsight we can confirm its effects. Most of Maru's recent Code S wins happened after the point GSL moved to being mostly online with a sharp drop in prize pool. I don't count those for much - especially when the reason Rogue hasn't been able to win more is because he can't compete due to military. Maybe 3 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2020 and 2 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2022 before it went online and prize pool hugely dropped. Even factoring that in, Rogue winning 3 WC tier events is of such a high accomplishment that to me, Maru's other results don't add up to. Serral, Rogue, and sOs are the only ones able to achieve 3 WC tier wins. If sOs was able to win 3 Code S in say 2014, 2016, and 2017 he would be in the GOAT discussion along with Serral Rogue and Maru, with a strong argument for #1 due to dominating in the strongest era and having both WC and Code S wins.
Not to derail the topic, but I really respect Artosis for sharing his honest opinion despite all the backlash and personal attacks on him which is very toxic and disappointing to see.
|
|
|
On September 13 2024 06:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Awesome interview thanks!
Big props to Artosis for standing by his views on the GOAT.
I do agree that many people aren't really engaging with what he's saying.
It's also really cool that it was asked of Serral and mentioned that if he's not the GOAT, Rogue is.
Many people considered Rogue to have surpassed Maru, shortly before he went to military when he matched Maru's 4 Code S wins (plus his other Super wins, and 3 WC tier wins).
After Rogue left, no one was really left to reliably stop Maru, and he won his 5th Code S onwards. Almost everyone unanimously considered Maru > Rogue from that point on.
We knew though that GSL had been downsizing more and more rapidly, and with hindsight we can confirm its effects. Most of Maru's recent Code S wins happened after the point GSL moved to being mostly online with a sharp drop in prize pool. I don't count those for much - especially when the reason Rogue hasn't been able to win more is because he can't compete due to military. Maybe 3 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2020 and 2 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2022 before it went online and prize pool hugely dropped. Even factoring that in, Rogue winning 3 WC tier events is of such a high accomplishment that to me, Maru's other results don't add up to. Serral, Rogue, and sOs are the only ones able to achieve 3 WC tier wins. If sOs was able to win 3 Code S in say 2014, 2016, and 2017 he would be in the GOAT discussion along with Serral Rogue and Maru, with a strong argument for #1 due to dominating in the strongest era and having both WC and Code S wins.
Not to derail the topic, but I really respect Artosis for sharing his honest opinion despite all the backlash and personal attacks on him which is very toxic and disappointing to see.
One could argue though that the 2 Starleagues Maru won in 2013 and 2015 are also worth much more than Rogue's GSLs and that cancels out Maru's recent GSLs being worth less.
Anyway, I agree that Artosis case for Rogue is pretty sound. I don't agree with it but he has solid arguments - he clarified his criteria which aren't too unreasonable imo, and sticked to them.
90% of the people disagreeing with him on reddit/TL have worse arguments for their favorite player and thus should keep their mouth shut
|
On September 13 2024 11:37 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 06:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Awesome interview thanks!
Big props to Artosis for standing by his views on the GOAT.
I do agree that many people aren't really engaging with what he's saying.
It's also really cool that it was asked of Serral and mentioned that if he's not the GOAT, Rogue is.
Many people considered Rogue to have surpassed Maru, shortly before he went to military when he matched Maru's 4 Code S wins (plus his other Super wins, and 3 WC tier wins).
After Rogue left, no one was really left to reliably stop Maru, and he won his 5th Code S onwards. Almost everyone unanimously considered Maru > Rogue from that point on.
We knew though that GSL had been downsizing more and more rapidly, and with hindsight we can confirm its effects. Most of Maru's recent Code S wins happened after the point GSL moved to being mostly online with a sharp drop in prize pool. I don't count those for much - especially when the reason Rogue hasn't been able to win more is because he can't compete due to military. Maybe 3 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2020 and 2 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2022 before it went online and prize pool hugely dropped. Even factoring that in, Rogue winning 3 WC tier events is of such a high accomplishment that to me, Maru's other results don't add up to. Serral, Rogue, and sOs are the only ones able to achieve 3 WC tier wins. If sOs was able to win 3 Code S in say 2014, 2016, and 2017 he would be in the GOAT discussion along with Serral Rogue and Maru, with a strong argument for #1 due to dominating in the strongest era and having both WC and Code S wins.
Not to derail the topic, but I really respect Artosis for sharing his honest opinion despite all the backlash and personal attacks on him which is very toxic and disappointing to see. One could argue though that the 2 Starleagues Maru won in 2013 and 2015 are also worth much more than Rogue's GSLs and that cancels out Maru's recent GSLs being worth less. Anyway, I agree that Artosis case for Rogue is pretty sound. I don't agree with it but he has solid arguments - he clarified his criteria which aren't too unreasonable imo, and sticked to them. 90% of the people disagreeing with him on reddit/TL have worse arguments for their favorite player and thus should keep their mouth shut
Glad it's not just me who thinks his argument is actually not very unreasonable ! (And definitely much better than many arguments people use on reddit/TL). He gave a very simple criteria and his definition of what GOAT is and he's able to sum it up in like 20 seconds now lol.
And true the 2 Starleagues is really good especially during the most competitive era. Really comes down to how much you weigh Starleagues vs GSL vs WCs etc. as usual. Most people lean on Maru > Rogue but I think when it comes to those who have the "minimum requirements" to be GOAT that people have mostly settled on (WC wins, KIL wins, dominating for more than a couple years etc.) Rogue is the only other who hits all those marks and should definitely not be left out of discussions. Serral being the WC + foreign tournaments extreme, Maru the GSL extreme, and Rogue a balance of both.
|
Northern Ireland24962 Posts
On September 13 2024 12:39 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 11:37 Charoisaur wrote:On September 13 2024 06:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Awesome interview thanks!
Big props to Artosis for standing by his views on the GOAT.
I do agree that many people aren't really engaging with what he's saying.
It's also really cool that it was asked of Serral and mentioned that if he's not the GOAT, Rogue is.
Many people considered Rogue to have surpassed Maru, shortly before he went to military when he matched Maru's 4 Code S wins (plus his other Super wins, and 3 WC tier wins).
After Rogue left, no one was really left to reliably stop Maru, and he won his 5th Code S onwards. Almost everyone unanimously considered Maru > Rogue from that point on.
We knew though that GSL had been downsizing more and more rapidly, and with hindsight we can confirm its effects. Most of Maru's recent Code S wins happened after the point GSL moved to being mostly online with a sharp drop in prize pool. I don't count those for much - especially when the reason Rogue hasn't been able to win more is because he can't compete due to military. Maybe 3 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2020 and 2 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2022 before it went online and prize pool hugely dropped. Even factoring that in, Rogue winning 3 WC tier events is of such a high accomplishment that to me, Maru's other results don't add up to. Serral, Rogue, and sOs are the only ones able to achieve 3 WC tier wins. If sOs was able to win 3 Code S in say 2014, 2016, and 2017 he would be in the GOAT discussion along with Serral Rogue and Maru, with a strong argument for #1 due to dominating in the strongest era and having both WC and Code S wins.
Not to derail the topic, but I really respect Artosis for sharing his honest opinion despite all the backlash and personal attacks on him which is very toxic and disappointing to see. One could argue though that the 2 Starleagues Maru won in 2013 and 2015 are also worth much more than Rogue's GSLs and that cancels out Maru's recent GSLs being worth less. Anyway, I agree that Artosis case for Rogue is pretty sound. I don't agree with it but he has solid arguments - he clarified his criteria which aren't too unreasonable imo, and sticked to them. 90% of the people disagreeing with him on reddit/TL have worse arguments for their favorite player and thus should keep their mouth shut Glad it's not just me who thinks his argument is actually not very unreasonable ! (And definitely much better than many arguments people use on reddit/TL). He gave a very simple criteria and his definition of what GOAT is and he's able to sum it up in like 20 seconds now lol. And true the 2 Starleagues is really good especially during the most competitive era. Really comes down to how much you weigh Starleagues vs GSL vs WCs etc. as usual. Most people lean on Maru > Rogue but I think when it comes to those who have the "minimum requirements" to be GOAT that people have mostly settled on (WC wins, KIL wins, dominating for more than a couple years etc.) Rogue is the only other who hits all those marks and should definitely not be left out of discussions. Serral being the WC + foreign tournaments extreme, Maru the GSL extreme, and Rogue a balance of both.
I just find it difficult to come up with a formula where he’s ahead of both Maru and Serral
Serral’s got his results and ridiculous numbers. If someone wants to weigh them low versus the Kespa era that’s their prerogative, but then Maru stacks up very favourably against Rogue in that time. And quite a few other players too.
Of those two competitors one has the tournament wins in the Kespa era box ticked that he doesn’t. The other has similar WC accomplishments, better international tourney results, but doesn’t have the GSLs. But if you wanna weigh GSLs higher the other other guy also has him beat on that
I mean if you want your GOAT to have won both GSL and WCs and that’s the pre-requisite I suppose one can do that way!
I’d still pick Rogue quite high nonetheless. For obvious reasons. Just people can’t make the ‘it isn’t the highest competitive era’ argument against Serral and not have it count against most of Rogue’s achievements too
|
On September 13 2024 16:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 12:39 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 13 2024 11:37 Charoisaur wrote:On September 13 2024 06:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Awesome interview thanks!
Big props to Artosis for standing by his views on the GOAT.
I do agree that many people aren't really engaging with what he's saying.
It's also really cool that it was asked of Serral and mentioned that if he's not the GOAT, Rogue is.
Many people considered Rogue to have surpassed Maru, shortly before he went to military when he matched Maru's 4 Code S wins (plus his other Super wins, and 3 WC tier wins).
After Rogue left, no one was really left to reliably stop Maru, and he won his 5th Code S onwards. Almost everyone unanimously considered Maru > Rogue from that point on.
We knew though that GSL had been downsizing more and more rapidly, and with hindsight we can confirm its effects. Most of Maru's recent Code S wins happened after the point GSL moved to being mostly online with a sharp drop in prize pool. I don't count those for much - especially when the reason Rogue hasn't been able to win more is because he can't compete due to military. Maybe 3 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2020 and 2 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2022 before it went online and prize pool hugely dropped. Even factoring that in, Rogue winning 3 WC tier events is of such a high accomplishment that to me, Maru's other results don't add up to. Serral, Rogue, and sOs are the only ones able to achieve 3 WC tier wins. If sOs was able to win 3 Code S in say 2014, 2016, and 2017 he would be in the GOAT discussion along with Serral Rogue and Maru, with a strong argument for #1 due to dominating in the strongest era and having both WC and Code S wins.
Not to derail the topic, but I really respect Artosis for sharing his honest opinion despite all the backlash and personal attacks on him which is very toxic and disappointing to see. One could argue though that the 2 Starleagues Maru won in 2013 and 2015 are also worth much more than Rogue's GSLs and that cancels out Maru's recent GSLs being worth less. Anyway, I agree that Artosis case for Rogue is pretty sound. I don't agree with it but he has solid arguments - he clarified his criteria which aren't too unreasonable imo, and sticked to them. 90% of the people disagreeing with him on reddit/TL have worse arguments for their favorite player and thus should keep their mouth shut Glad it's not just me who thinks his argument is actually not very unreasonable ! (And definitely much better than many arguments people use on reddit/TL). He gave a very simple criteria and his definition of what GOAT is and he's able to sum it up in like 20 seconds now lol. And true the 2 Starleagues is really good especially during the most competitive era. Really comes down to how much you weigh Starleagues vs GSL vs WCs etc. as usual. Most people lean on Maru > Rogue but I think when it comes to those who have the "minimum requirements" to be GOAT that people have mostly settled on (WC wins, KIL wins, dominating for more than a couple years etc.) Rogue is the only other who hits all those marks and should definitely not be left out of discussions. Serral being the WC + foreign tournaments extreme, Maru the GSL extreme, and Rogue a balance of both. I just find it difficult to come up with a formula where he’s ahead of both Maru and Serral Serral’s got his results and ridiculous numbers. If someone wants to weigh them low versus the Kespa era that’s their prerogative, but then Maru stacks up very favourably against Rogue in that time. And quite a few other players too. Of those two competitors one has the tournament wins in the Kespa era box ticked that he doesn’t. The other has similar WC accomplishments, better international tourney results, but doesn’t have the GSLs. But if you wanna weigh GSLs higher the other other guy also has him beat on that I mean if you want your GOAT to have won both GSL and WCs and that’s the pre-requisite I suppose one can do that way! I’d still pick Rogue quite high nonetheless. For obvious reasons. Just people can’t make the ‘it isn’t the highest competitive era’ argument against Serral and not have it count against most of Rogue’s achievements too
The formula for Rogue I have in my head if I were to put him higher is like this:
Serral dominates at the biggest stage (international WC tournaments), but lacks Code S wins (not a big deal for Serral ofc)
Maru dominates in KR, but fails to win at the biggest stage (international WC tournaments), so his achievements is lacking something significant. You could take the angle that his 2 Starleague wins in HoTs were the biggest stage in the most competitive era though of course (before international WC tournaments became the biggest), and maybe even say that Maru peaked in HotS and what we're seeing now is him just dominating a much weaker GSL scene
Rogue matched Maru's 4 Code S wins in 2022. They were pretty much equal on that.
Maru's 5th Code S win was after Rogue left for military.
Maru's 6th-8th Code S wins were with the online and/or hugely downsized GSL with crowdfunded prizepool.
Rogue was not able to compete during Maru's 5th-8th Code S. This is a huge factor because while you can say on paper that Maru has the better GSL achievements, when we're talking about GOAT we have to consider the circumstances the players are in and how they performed. Rogue legally literally could not perform / rack up any more wins while Maru could simply due to him being older and having to go to military sooner.
So to me, Maru's 5th-8th wins in the context of GOAT discussion (whether he's GOAT over Serral or Rogue) has a huge asterisk because Rogue wasn't even there to stop him.
But at best, you could say Rogue's Code S performance is equal to Maru. And at worst, Maru's Code S performances is valued more even if Rogue had to miss out due to military. The remaining argument for Rogue would simply be that he was able to succeed on the biggest stage (international WC tournaments in the modern era where they are bigger than KIL), not once but three times where Maru failed to do so a single time. That's a huge thing that Rogue has over Maru to me, even if Maru won even more KIL it would still be weird to me to lack a single WC tier win.
So placing Rogue over Maru would be valuing WC and Code S in a middleground way:
-WC valued a bit more than Code S, but Code S is not so much less that Serral would then trump Rogue. Probably 1 WC (2017-2024) = 1.5 Code S (2017-2022).
-Code S and Starleagues are valued, but not glorified so much that they can make up for a total lack of WC wins when the other 2 contenders Serral and Rogue have 3 showing that it can be done, and sOs who is much lower
-Also valuing a balance of results in international vs KIL, weekender vs prep format, being able to succeed in all of those which Rogue has done, but Serral and Maru haven't proven it.
If i were to compare the results 1:1 this is about how I'd stack it up:
Rogue's 4 Code S in 2018-2022 = Maru's 4 Code S in 2018-2022
Rogue's 3 Supers = Maru's 5th Code S in 2022 + 1 Super + 1 heavily downsized Code S in 2023-2024
Rogue's 3 WC tier >= Maru's 1 weak WC tier (WESG) + 2 KIL during peak competitive era + his other 2 heavily downsized Code S in 2023-2024
Rogue's Proleague < Maru's Proleague, but I don't value team results much when it comes to GOAT, and they were both top Proleague players so it wasn't a huge difference in the grand scheme
I would still put Serral as GOAT on my list currently (would have been way easier if he finished strong by winning EWC this year), but I'm like 55:45 on putting Rogue above Maru because WC wins are really big to me as they are the biggest tournies especially if we're talking about having 3 while the other has 0. It's really a pity sOs was not able to win even 2 Code S during 2013-2017, as if he did he would in my book shoot up to being above Innovation/MVP/Dark and being #2-4, with a 3rd Code S win would put him in strong contention be #1.
|
Do you really think that comparison will make things better ?
|
On September 13 2024 03:43 WombaT wrote:
I must say I never really noticed any appreciable drop off in ‘Tasteless and Artosis talk about Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles for 3 minutes’ style chatter.
Provided it wasn’t over the top of something impactful happening I myself quite liked it and felt it added to the charm of that duo.
it's truly a shame we don't get more collab for them streaming together. they got such a nice brand going, never understood why they never kept building it out beyond casting
|
Northern Ireland24962 Posts
On September 13 2024 21:06 KingzTig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 03:43 WombaT wrote:
I must say I never really noticed any appreciable drop off in ‘Tasteless and Artosis talk about Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles for 3 minutes’ style chatter.
Provided it wasn’t over the top of something impactful happening I myself quite liked it and felt it added to the charm of that duo. it's truly a shame we don't get more collab for them streaming together. they got such a nice brand going, never understood why they never kept building it out beyond casting
Yeah it really feels they built their individual brands as that partnership but haven’t really leveraged it since
|
I think regardless of if you agree with Arty, he is making an argument for one of the three "accepted" possible goats. It's a thought out opinion and should be respected as such, especially given his stature in the scene.
His thoughts on balance I do agree with. It's basically the same across all genres, the older games are more imba but people adapt/accept these imbalances. I don't think it's controversial to say sf6 is better balanced than third strike. Ofc better balance doesn't mean the game is outright better though
|
On September 13 2024 16:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 12:39 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 13 2024 11:37 Charoisaur wrote:On September 13 2024 06:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Awesome interview thanks!
Big props to Artosis for standing by his views on the GOAT.
I do agree that many people aren't really engaging with what he's saying.
It's also really cool that it was asked of Serral and mentioned that if he's not the GOAT, Rogue is.
Many people considered Rogue to have surpassed Maru, shortly before he went to military when he matched Maru's 4 Code S wins (plus his other Super wins, and 3 WC tier wins).
After Rogue left, no one was really left to reliably stop Maru, and he won his 5th Code S onwards. Almost everyone unanimously considered Maru > Rogue from that point on.
We knew though that GSL had been downsizing more and more rapidly, and with hindsight we can confirm its effects. Most of Maru's recent Code S wins happened after the point GSL moved to being mostly online with a sharp drop in prize pool. I don't count those for much - especially when the reason Rogue hasn't been able to win more is because he can't compete due to military. Maybe 3 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2020 and 2 of those wins equals 1 GSL from 2022 before it went online and prize pool hugely dropped. Even factoring that in, Rogue winning 3 WC tier events is of such a high accomplishment that to me, Maru's other results don't add up to. Serral, Rogue, and sOs are the only ones able to achieve 3 WC tier wins. If sOs was able to win 3 Code S in say 2014, 2016, and 2017 he would be in the GOAT discussion along with Serral Rogue and Maru, with a strong argument for #1 due to dominating in the strongest era and having both WC and Code S wins.
Not to derail the topic, but I really respect Artosis for sharing his honest opinion despite all the backlash and personal attacks on him which is very toxic and disappointing to see. One could argue though that the 2 Starleagues Maru won in 2013 and 2015 are also worth much more than Rogue's GSLs and that cancels out Maru's recent GSLs being worth less. Anyway, I agree that Artosis case for Rogue is pretty sound. I don't agree with it but he has solid arguments - he clarified his criteria which aren't too unreasonable imo, and sticked to them. 90% of the people disagreeing with him on reddit/TL have worse arguments for their favorite player and thus should keep their mouth shut Glad it's not just me who thinks his argument is actually not very unreasonable ! (And definitely much better than many arguments people use on reddit/TL). He gave a very simple criteria and his definition of what GOAT is and he's able to sum it up in like 20 seconds now lol. And true the 2 Starleagues is really good especially during the most competitive era. Really comes down to how much you weigh Starleagues vs GSL vs WCs etc. as usual. Most people lean on Maru > Rogue but I think when it comes to those who have the "minimum requirements" to be GOAT that people have mostly settled on (WC wins, KIL wins, dominating for more than a couple years etc.) Rogue is the only other who hits all those marks and should definitely not be left out of discussions. Serral being the WC + foreign tournaments extreme, Maru the GSL extreme, and Rogue a balance of both. I mean if you want your GOAT to have won both GSL and WCs and that’s the pre-requisite I suppose one can do that way!
Yeah that's basically Artosis argument. And I don't think it's too unreasonable if you use achievements to determine the Goat.
GSL and Katowice/Blizzcon are historically the most prestigious tournaments so it's quite a big gap in your resumee if you're missing one of them. Also there's the preperation tournament vs weekender factor as Rogue is the only one out of the Goat candidates to have massive successes in both formats.
The reason why Rogue can't be the Goat imo is more of subjective nature. He played throughout the Kespa era and didn't win anything and only started winning once the competition got a lot thinner. That makes it impossible for me to call him the Goat, Serral at least has the excuse of not being fulltime back then so we can always ask ourselves 'what if...'.
If we just looked at achievements and disregarded competitive strength I think I'd be inclined to agree with Artosis that Rogue may be the Goat (definitely at the point he left for military, maybe not anymore with Serral's recent dominance)
|
Yay GOAT debate revived after it was decidedly killed!
I think it's a lazy argument that because rogue has both apples and oranges that, that puts him above twice the number of apples or oranges. If anything that puts him at a certain no.2 depending on which is worth more the apples or the oranges.
To the fact that rogue played during kespa and didn't achieve results, I don't like this argument personally. I think it shouldn't matter if a player was even playing at bronze lvl for 5 years straight, what matters is the time that he 'got it', the time that puts him in the conversation to begin with. However bad Rogue might've been, his results can only be a boon for his career and not the opposite. Sos' lotv results has been used against him, when in fact it should speak for him. Just like that if MVP had continued to play for the rest of sc2, but only would've been able to perform as well as Top that shouldn't speak against his WoL results.
|
Thanks for all the kind words from so many of you guys!
Also love all the silly debates. Some more liveliness is something we definitely need in the SC community!
|
|
|
On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga"
Best game is best game. Starcraft Broodwar is that. I don't see a problem here.
|
Northern Ireland24962 Posts
On September 15 2024 12:27 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga" Best game is best game. Starcraft Broodwar is that. I don't see a problem here.
One can think that without being a pain in the arse about it though
|
On September 15 2024 12:27 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga" Best game is best game. Starcraft Broodwar is that. I don't see a problem here.
As I said before: Liking BroodWar is not a personality.
|
This should be quite an uncontroversial statement. Everything in BW is busted. Spells are insanely powerful (storm, plague...) and some units are ridiculously strong (mutas, cracklings). Still, a gem of a game to watch, play and learn.
|
I don't know seems like all the races can win the big tournaments at least in BW. In sc2 Protoss went from being perfectly balanced at 32% of winnings in 2022, then the cabal made the overcharge + disruptor changes and it went to 25% for 2023 and now they failed to make it good again for 2024 and now we're at 20%. Not having won any premier tournament for 2 years.. and going from winning a 1/3rd to 1/5th within a 2 year span. So Protoss at this point is closer to wc3 balance with a race in a similar spot as Undead was for the longest time.
|
On September 13 2024 21:45 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 21:06 KingzTig wrote:On September 13 2024 03:43 WombaT wrote:
I must say I never really noticed any appreciable drop off in ‘Tasteless and Artosis talk about Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles for 3 minutes’ style chatter.
Provided it wasn’t over the top of something impactful happening I myself quite liked it and felt it added to the charm of that duo. it's truly a shame we don't get more collab for them streaming together. they got such a nice brand going, never understood why they never kept building it out beyond casting Yeah it really feels they built their individual brands as that partnership but haven’t really leveraged it since
I always wanted them to commentate more IRL stuff, in their same roles. Imagine them just sitting on the curb commentating people walking by. Seemed ridiculous ten years ago, not so much anymore now.
|
|
|
Northern Ireland24962 Posts
On September 20 2024 16:16 Navane wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2024 21:45 WombaT wrote:On September 13 2024 21:06 KingzTig wrote:On September 13 2024 03:43 WombaT wrote:
I must say I never really noticed any appreciable drop off in ‘Tasteless and Artosis talk about Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles for 3 minutes’ style chatter.
Provided it wasn’t over the top of something impactful happening I myself quite liked it and felt it added to the charm of that duo. it's truly a shame we don't get more collab for them streaming together. they got such a nice brand going, never understood why they never kept building it out beyond casting Yeah it really feels they built their individual brands as that partnership but haven’t really leveraged it since I always wanted them to commentate more IRL stuff, in their same roles. Imagine them just sitting on the curb commentating people walking by. Seemed ridiculous ten years ago, not so much anymore now.
I’d be absolutely down for such content!
|
On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga" I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2.
people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up...
|
Northern Ireland24962 Posts
On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga" I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2. people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up...
How you say something counts for a lot…
|
On September 20 2024 04:57 ejozl wrote:
I don't know seems like all the races can win the big tournaments at least in BW. In sc2 Protoss went from being perfectly balanced at 32% of winnings in 2022, then the cabal made the overcharge + disruptor changes and it went to 25% for 2023 and now they failed to make it good again for 2024 and now we're at 20%. Not having won any premier tournament for 2 years.. and going from winning a 1/3rd to 1/5th within a 2 year span. So Protoss at this point is closer to wc3 balance with a race in a similar spot as Undead was for the longest time.
Winning tourneys is a terrible metric for balance, it is highly sensitive to 1 or 2 players, thus making it far less reliable.
|
On September 21 2024 01:33 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 04:57 ejozl wrote:
I don't know seems like all the races can win the big tournaments at least in BW. In sc2 Protoss went from being perfectly balanced at 32% of winnings in 2022, then the cabal made the overcharge + disruptor changes and it went to 25% for 2023 and now they failed to make it good again for 2024 and now we're at 20%. Not having won any premier tournament for 2 years.. and going from winning a 1/3rd to 1/5th within a 2 year span. So Protoss at this point is closer to wc3 balance with a race in a similar spot as Undead was for the longest time. Winning tourneys is a terrible metric for balance, it is highly sensitive to 1 or 2 players, thus making it far less reliable.
And if you remove a race it is far more sensitive to 1, or 2 players.
|
On September 21 2024 02:24 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2024 01:33 Pentarp wrote:On September 20 2024 04:57 ejozl wrote:
I don't know seems like all the races can win the big tournaments at least in BW. In sc2 Protoss went from being perfectly balanced at 32% of winnings in 2022, then the cabal made the overcharge + disruptor changes and it went to 25% for 2023 and now they failed to make it good again for 2024 and now we're at 20%. Not having won any premier tournament for 2 years.. and going from winning a 1/3rd to 1/5th within a 2 year span. So Protoss at this point is closer to wc3 balance with a race in a similar spot as Undead was for the longest time. Winning tourneys is a terrible metric for balance, it is highly sensitive to 1 or 2 players, thus making it far less reliable. And if you remove a race it is far more sensitive to 1, or 2 players.
Ah, what would a balance discussion be without hyperbole?
|
On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga" I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2. people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up...
I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"...
|
Northern Ireland24962 Posts
On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga" I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2. people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up... I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"...
Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’
I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well…
|
On September 21 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga" I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2. people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up... I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"... Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’ I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well…
What's exactly the "repetitive clicking busywork" in BW? It's all either a part of macro or micro skill of the player controlling the units/buildings. The "devil" (skill gap) is exactly in those little details + game understanding.
Weird conversation overall.
|
|
|
On September 21 2024 17:34 wertgdfgdf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2024 16:09 M3t4PhYzX wrote:On September 21 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga" I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2. people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up... I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"... Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’ I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well… What's exactly the "repetitive clicking busywork" in BW? It's all either a part of macro or micro skill of the player controlling the units/buildings. The "devil" (skill gap) is exactly in those little details + game understanding. Weird conversation overall. Yeah, the 50 extra clicks it takes to move 5 units up a ramp are definitely not considered "repetitive clicking busywork" But who can argue against the "ITS JUST SKILL BRO" argument? Man i wish i could see your Game History. Would be funny to expose all the poser
it's such a small part of the game bruh. Open your eyes.
|
On September 21 2024 16:09 M3t4PhYzX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga" I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2. people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up... I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"... Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’ I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well… What's exactly the "repetitive clicking busywork" in BW? It's all either a part of macro or micro skill of the player controlling the units/buildings. The "devil" (skill gap) is exactly in those little details + game understanding. Weird conversation overall.
The C&C people dislike the BW in base "economy house keeping chores". To see their point: contrast BW's in base economy management with the Red Alert 3 economy management. Contrast what an RA3 player must do to defend an attack on an ore collector versus what a BW player must do when his Mineral and Gas lines get attacked.
SC64 had less in-base housekeeping than BW due to SCVs mining just by being rallied to a mineral patch.
|
Northern Ireland24962 Posts
On September 21 2024 16:09 M3t4PhYzX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga" I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2. people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up... I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"... Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’ I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well… What's exactly the "repetitive clicking busywork" in BW? It's all either a part of macro or micro skill of the player controlling the units/buildings. The "devil" (skill gap) is exactly in those little details + game understanding. Weird conversation overall.
There’s plenty of reasonable arguments to be made that SC2 < BW but ‘repetitive boring mouse clicking’ is not one of them. It’s basically the worst one could pick
Even if you think it adds depth and raises the skill ceiling, there’s still much more of it
It’d be like someone claiming x genre is worse than jazz because it’s full of improvisation and creative noodling, when that’s a hallmark of jazz
Hey I’ve space in my heart for both games, but commented as it’s such a daft thing for that poster to argue
|
On September 21 2024 21:02 WombaT wrote:
Hey I’ve space in my heart for both games, but commented as it’s such a daft thing for that poster to argue
IMO, it is all subjective. Everyone is screaming about how great Warhammer 40K:SM2 is. I tried it for a few hours and refunded it. I do not like the combat. I can see why many people like the combat. It just ain't for me.
For me, SC2 is the best video game of all time. BW is #2.
I know some guys who only want a C&C type economy model. There are others who prefer the Halo Wars 2 economy model. Its their money and their time. These people should do whatever gives them the most fun.
Perhaps we can get some Halo Wars 2 players in here to tell us how SC2 sucks?
Or, maybe someone who thinks EA NHL '94 is great can explain why its almost as good as SC2. Managing line changes and juggling your line up around injuries can be quite a thrilling optimization puzzle while under duress.  The King of '94 Event Is Next Weekend!
|
Northern Ireland24962 Posts
On September 21 2024 20:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2024 16:09 M3t4PhYzX wrote:On September 21 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga" I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2. people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up... I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"... Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’ I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well… What's exactly the "repetitive clicking busywork" in BW? It's all either a part of macro or micro skill of the player controlling the units/buildings. The "devil" (skill gap) is exactly in those little details + game understanding. Weird conversation overall. The C&C people dislike the BW in base "economy house keeping chores". To see their point: contrast BW's in base economy management with the Red Alert 3 economy management. Contrast what an RA3 player must do to defend an attack on an ore collector versus what a BW player must do when his Mineral and Gas lines get attacked. SC64 had less of it than BW due to SCVs mining just by being rallied to a mineral patch.
I’d long wondered how they made SC64 even vaguely playable on consoles, and with that a controller lacking a second analogue stick and some of the buttons of today’s stock layouts.
That tweak certainly makes a lot of sense!
Of all the subsequent QoL changes we’ve seen, this is probably the one I think they could have added in Remastered, and possibly should have.
I don’t mind macroing without multiple building selection, zipping around and clicking all over the place, feels pretty good when you get into a flow. Don’t mind not having unlimited unit selection, especially in a game that’s finely balanced by not having it, and bigger, more sophisticated armies being harder to control.
Not being able to rally workers to mine is for me just somewhat irritating. Whether my arbitrary line is between mechanically demanding but enjoyable macro, and repetitive busywork, that crosses it. I’m already hot keying multiple nexuses and queuing manually, or later game bouncing around camera locations to do it. It basically turns one macro cycle into two
I trust I won’t be burned at the stake for heresy for making this observation!
|
On September 21 2024 21:14 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2024 20:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On September 21 2024 16:09 M3t4PhYzX wrote:On September 21 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:On September 21 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:On September 21 2024 00:58 Siz)Beggar wrote:On September 12 2024 05:35 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 12 2024 05:26 Balnazza wrote:On September 12 2024 03:55 StarcraftHistorian wrote:On September 12 2024 03:34 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
You guys are really grasping on the last straw Wdym? He means "Broodwar ist best game ever I build my entire personality around it and SC2 sucks and how dare you even suggest something in SC2 might be better than Broodwar uga uga" I have observed you people for a long time. The delusions are Artosis level. You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought. There is a reason no one in Korea where an actual good RTS was established prefers the 'superior' SC2 game, except for some people in the west that have nothing else in life to feel proud of except being gold in SC2. people are just bashing on him saying this but the numbers kind of back it up... I'm extremly curious what numbers exactly back up the thesis "all BW fans are brainiacs and only some incels in the west like SC2"... Also ‘ You guys are thinking you play 5D chess while all you play is some repetitive boring mouse clicking without much thought.’ I mean I love both games, if there’s one of the two with more repetitive clicking busywork, well… What's exactly the "repetitive clicking busywork" in BW? It's all either a part of macro or micro skill of the player controlling the units/buildings. The "devil" (skill gap) is exactly in those little details + game understanding. Weird conversation overall. The C&C people dislike the BW in base "economy house keeping chores". To see their point: contrast BW's in base economy management with the Red Alert 3 economy management. Contrast what an RA3 player must do to defend an attack on an ore collector versus what a BW player must do when his Mineral and Gas lines get attacked. SC64 had less of it than BW due to SCVs mining just by being rallied to a mineral patch. I’d long wondered how they made SC64 even vaguely playable on consoles, and with that a controller lacking a second analogue stick and some of the buttons of today’s stock layouts. That tweak certainly makes a lot of sense!
SC64 is a great game. Tasteless has run SC64 Tourneys. There are unit voice lines but no other voices. This forced the use of text you had to read. It allows you to experience the campaign in a different way.
We used to debate: is Zeratul supposed to be Moses or apostle Thomas or maybe the snake that talked to Eve.
|
On September 21 2024 03:03 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2024 02:24 ejozl wrote:On September 21 2024 01:33 Pentarp wrote:On September 20 2024 04:57 ejozl wrote:
I don't know seems like all the races can win the big tournaments at least in BW. In sc2 Protoss went from being perfectly balanced at 32% of winnings in 2022, then the cabal made the overcharge + disruptor changes and it went to 25% for 2023 and now they failed to make it good again for 2024 and now we're at 20%. Not having won any premier tournament for 2 years.. and going from winning a 1/3rd to 1/5th within a 2 year span. So Protoss at this point is closer to wc3 balance with a race in a similar spot as Undead was for the longest time. Winning tourneys is a terrible metric for balance, it is highly sensitive to 1 or 2 players, thus making it far less reliable. And if you remove a race it is far more sensitive to 1, or 2 players. Ah, what would a balance discussion be without hyperbole?
Hero won 2 tournaments, then came a nerf taking him out of the conversation. Then there was a major terran buff that removed reynor from the conversation. So now terrans and serral can win tournaments, had they kept going in that direction serral would've been removed from the conversation. You see how much effect "minor" balance tweaks do? - we could've been in a situation where maru, clem, serral, reynor, hero and perhaps classic/trap could've been contenders, but instead it's terran town. I see a bigger chance for cure, gumiho and ragnarok winning a tournament than any protoss.
List all the players that have won a premier tournament, going all the way back to the herO win, and you have a pretty large list of players, only 1 being protoss funnily enough. If you think there are no greater Protoss than any of these players, you are pretty daft.
|
On September 13 2024 03:43 WombaT wrote:
I must say I never really noticed any appreciable drop off in ‘Tasteless and Artosis talk about Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles for 3 minutes’ style chatter.
Provided it wasn’t over the top of something impactful happening I myself quite liked it and felt it added to the charm of that duo.
It was definitely something we lost a lot of because of the faster starts in LOTV. In WOL or HOTS, if there was no proxy, it was time to just let Tastosis cook.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
Artosis is one of the people I have wanted to interview since I started this foray into content creation. Dan is one of the voices that brought StarCraft to the west, and it was an absolute honor working with him. I hope you all enjoy this chat with one of the Mount Rushmore figures of this community!
