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Waxangel
United States33166 Posts
https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/622559-1-maru-greatest-players-of-all-time https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/622558-2-serral-greatest-players-of-all-time https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/625342-goat-addendum-maru-and-the-perception-of-code-s https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/628786-the-starcraft-2-goat-an-in-depth-analysis https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/607611-how-do-we-measure-goats-without-korean-sc2 https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/629391-the-goat-ranking-of-goat-rankings | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3340 Posts
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FataLe
New Zealand4492 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1413 Posts
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Ciaus237
South Africa258 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10305 Posts
For example, who would you put higher, MC or Nestea? MMA or Polt? Or how would you order Life, MVP, Taeja? and how about the Protoss who have a case for top 15? Stats, herO, Classic, Trap, MC? soO or sOs? Both with tons of 2nd places, soO with more but sOs with 2 more WC wins Here's another idea: Since we've had a big TL GOAT article, how about we make a thread for another TL community ranking, where everyone shares their Top 15, and then we compile the results? Now would be a great time to do it! The last one was in 2018 i believe. It would be cool to see what people think now so we can look back on it in the future. | ||
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jodljodl
139 Posts
On August 25 2024 17:04 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Instead of debating the #1 GOAT spot all the time, why don't we have some fun and discuss some other interesting comparisons? For example, who would you put higher, MC or Nestea? MMA or Polt? Or how would you order Life, MVP, Taeja? and how about the Protoss who have a case for top 15? Stats, herO, Classic, Trap, MC? soO or sOs? Both with tons of 2nd places, soO with more but sOs with 2 more WC wins just my very first feeling. a mixture of gut, heart and reason in decreasing order. please don't judge  MC Polt Taeja (purely heart here) herO, stats, classic, trap, MC soO | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1098 Posts
On August 25 2024 16:25 CicadaSC wrote: how about a goat for regions? i think idra is the greatest american player of all time. (not highest skill level achieved, i think neeb and astrea etc far surpassed him) but what he was doing over the course of his career? yeah he's the goat. I would put IdrA at 4th if we talk NA, sixth if we take the entire Americas-region. With Neeb being the clear number 1, Long career, dominated the region, the first foreigner to win something Starcraft-related in Korea since freaking Grr... Personal "GOAT by regions"-list: EMEA: Serral Americas: Neeb -NA: Neeb -LAT: SpeCial/MajOr Korea: Maru APAC: Oliveira -China: Oliveira -TW/HK: Has -ANZ: This feels like the hardest one and I'm not sure. Iaguz? PiG? Probe? EMEA/EU always was one region, but just for fun, my picks for the european regions (roughly divided by how LoL divides EMEA): DACH: Showtime Scandinavia: Serral Poland: Nerchio France: Clem UK/Ireland: Demuslim Iberia: LucifroN BeNeLux: uThermal (though Grubby or Ret might also be fair picks, not sure) Not sure for the Balkans and CIS. NightEnD maybe for Balkan and Happy or Kas for CIS? Or Loweley? Or Bly for his long career? | ||
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10305 Posts
We could have 1 for LotV specifically? Also, I'm down to start a thread for a TL Community Goat ranking (similar to the 2018 one) if that's allowed. It would probably include tournaments up to EWC but no further. Also, it could allow 1 full month for people to post their personal lists and for it to count towards the community results. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On August 25 2024 19:40 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: That reminds me, during HotS we had a GOAT thread/discussion, but also had a greatest HotS players thread/discussion. We could have 1 for LotV specifically? Also, I'm down to start a thread for a TL Community Goat ranking (similar to the 2018 one) if that's allowed. It would probably include tournaments up to EWC but no further. Also, it could allow 1 full month for people to post their personal lists and for it to count towards the community results. I decided to run the TL community goat thing because I thought everything that could ever be said about ''The Goat'' (Maru, Serral, Rogue...) had been said multiple times over. My idea was to expand the focus to many more players and make it more of a reminiscence of Starcraft history as a whole. Nevertheless, a small part of me believed I could work to quench the debate and hopefully give me a breather from the endless Maru vs Serral threads, if only for a couple of months. As you can see, it didn't work. Fun project to do though, made me discover and rediscover a lot of players. I'm all in favor of your idea but we should ask people to post their top 100  | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On August 25 2024 21:08 Nakajin wrote: I decided to run the TL community goat thing because I thought everything that could ever be said about ''The Goat'' (Maru, Serral, Rogue...) had been said multiple times over. My idea was to expand the focus to many more players and make it more of a reminiscence of Starcraft history as a whole. Nevertheless, a small part of me believed that I could work to quench the debate and hopefully give me a breather from the endless Maru vs Serral threads, if only for a couple of months. As you can see, it didn't work. Fun project to do though, made me discover and rediscover a lot of players. I'm all in favor of your idea but we should ask people to post their top 100 Once you get past the 20-30 range, you're just picking from people with 1-2 Premier event wins, at which point it becomes pretty impossible to get anywhere. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On August 25 2024 21:13 Mizenhauer wrote: Once you get past the 20-30 range, you're just picking from people with 1-2 Premier event wins, at which point it becomes pretty impossible to get anywhere. Nah, that's where the fun is! Comparing Dark and Rogue is a beaten path, but Astrea vs Thorzain? Hydra vs Ragnarok? Creator vs Seed? Now that can take you down some real rabbit holes. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On August 25 2024 19:32 Balnazza wrote: I would put IdrA at 4th if we talk NA, sixth if we take the entire Americas-region. With Neeb being the clear number 1, Long career, dominated the region, the first foreigner to win something Starcraft-related in Korea since freaking Grr... Personal "GOAT by regions"-list: EMEA: Serral Americas: Neeb -NA: Neeb -LAT: SpeCial/MajOr Korea: Maru APAC: Oliveira -China: Oliveira -TW/HK: Has -ANZ: This feels like the hardest one and I'm not sure. Iaguz? PiG? Probe? EMEA/EU always was one region, but just for fun, my picks for the european regions (roughly divided by how LoL divides EMEA): DACH: Showtime Scandinavia: Serral Poland: Nerchio France: Clem UK/Ireland: Demuslim Iberia: LucifroN BeNeLux: uThermal (though Grubby or Ret might also be fair picks, not sure) Not sure for the Balkans and CIS. NightEnD maybe for Balkan and Happy or Kas for CIS? Or Loweley? Or Bly for his long career? Good shout! For Taiwan, I would actually go Sen over Has, higher peak (2 world championship top 4!) and won a big tournament on home soil. I agree ANZ is the hardest, I think I'd go Iaguz too, but Probe and Moonglade aren't far off for me (although, does KingKong count as ANZ?). | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1098 Posts
On August 25 2024 21:51 Nakajin wrote: Good shout! For Taiwan, I would actually go Sen over Has, higher peak (2 world championship top 4!) and won a big tournament on home soil. I agree ANZ is the hardest, I think I'd go Iaguz too, but Probe and Moonglade aren't far off for me (although, does KingKong count as ANZ?). I would definetly count KingKong as ANZ or Polt as American. We are not talking about nationality, but players representing and playing in a region. Though I did forget about Polt and Violet in my statement about IdrA, so he drops down even further. Has vs. Sen is an interesting thing. Sen definetly scored higher, I think at one point MyStarcraft ranked him as 5th in the world or something like that by some sort of points-ranking. So he definetly reached the highest peak out of all the TW/HK players. On the other hand, Has dominated the region for so tremendously long, even when he had a strong rival in Nice. So this really comes down to what you value higher, longevity or peak. For ANZ: I think ROOT Gaming once featured an article saying that he ANZ region is the most shifting, since after mOOnGlade dominating it and then PiG and Iaguz taking over, there was no clear favorite for years in the region. Probe, Azure, Seither, Petraeus and a few more always had a good shot at winning it. Of course that wasn't really noteworthy for the rest of the world, considering how bad ANZ used to score at international events. But since we are not talking about the international success here, but purely who was the Greatest of that region...I really would say ANZ is by far the hardest region to decide one clear GOAT on. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13964 Posts
On August 25 2024 17:04 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Instead of debating the #1 GOAT spot all the time, why don't we have some fun and discuss some other interesting comparisons? For example, who would you put higher, MC or Nestea? MMA or Polt? Or how would you order Life, MVP, Taeja? and how about the Protoss who have a case for top 15? Stats, herO, Classic, Trap, MC? soO or sOs? Both with tons of 2nd places, soO with more but sOs with 2 more WC wins Here's another idea: Since we've had a big TL GOAT article, how about we make a thread for another TL community ranking, where everyone shares their Top 15, and then we compile the results? Now would be a great time to do it! The last one was in 2018 i believe. It would be cool to see what people think now so we can look back on it in the future. This post gives me hope for the future of the SC2 community. Nestea was clearly a visionary who just held an understanding of the game practically no one else at the time did. I think I have MC slightly higher just because his staying power and X factor were so notable. Polt over MMA for me. Polt is one of the smartest players we've ever seen. The fact that in a 3-2 series vs Prime Taeja, Polt won every long game, and he forced Taeja of all people to go for cheeses to take wins speaks to his tactical prowess. Life is imo the GOAT so clear #1...Mvp in 2nd and Taeja in 3rd...though I will say I rate Taeja higher than most...damn damn good player. I would have had Stats in top 10 over TY so there's that. herO 100% is on there with his post-military career. Classic is close but needs to do more post-military to make it. Trap and MC are somewhere in 16-30 soO vs sOs kinda captures the essence of what it means to be a good SC2 player...obviously soO's macro was Legendary and sOs was rather mediocre in that regard...Overall I'd say SC2 has been more of a real-time game than a strategy game...with the lone exception being sOs...that he had such an effect i think edges him over the on paper better player. As an aside, instead of just everyone's top 15 GOATs...do top 10 favorite players. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On August 25 2024 23:00 Cricketer12 wrote: This post gives me hope for the future of the SC2 community. Nestea was clearly a visionary who just held an understanding of the game practically no one else at the time did. I think I have MC slightly higher just because his staying power and X factor were so notable. Polt over MMA for me. Polt is one of the smartest players we've ever seen. The fact that in a 3-2 series vs Prime Taeja, Polt won every long game, and he forced Taeja of all people to go for cheeses to take wins speaks to his tactical prowess. Life is imo the GOAT so clear #1...Mvp in 2nd and Taeja in 3rd...though I will say I rate Taeja higher than most...damn damn good player. I would have had Stats in top 10 over TY so there's that. herO 100% is on there with his post-military career. Classic is close but needs to do more post-military to make it. Trap and MC are somewhere in 16-30 soO vs sOs kinda captures the essence of what it means to be a good SC2 player...obviously soO's macro was Legendary and sOs was rather mediocre in that regard...Overall I'd say SC2 has been more of a real-time game than a strategy game...with the lone exception being sOs...that he had such an effect i think edges him over the on paper better player. As an aside, instead of just everyone's top 15 GOATs...do top 10 favorite players. 10 is not enough but let me try. I can't order them though and it would change tomorrow. - Scarlett - Maru - Pigbaby - Gumiho - Bomber - sOs - Neeb - MMA - soO - Zest At the moment I also really like Skillous, Ryung and herO. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13964 Posts
On August 25 2024 23:30 Nakajin wrote: 10 is not enough but let me try. I can't order them though and it would change tomorrow. - Scarlett - Maru - Pigbaby - Gumiho - Bomber - sOs - Neeb - MMA - soO - Zest At the moment I also really like Skillous, Ryung and herO. Hell yeah. Off the top of my head I've got DRG sOs Stats HuK Polt PartinG Ryung Scarlett Taeja Classic | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1098 Posts
So my ten players, though probably in no particular order after the first three: Snute - Always my favorite. For one, it is a rule that my favorite player in any RTS needs to be Norwegian (Creolophus, TheViper). But for me, he kind of was the "Proto-Serral". That Zerg that gets up there with the Koreans, baffles with his skills and how dominant his playstyle 'could' be. But he was also so human, so vulnerable. His struggle for BlizzCon each year...including that one RedBull Battleground event where he was almost in tears after a 0-1. Snute, even though he held the title as "best foreigner" at some point, was clearly never a Top 10 player. And even outside of Korea he was never as dominant as he could have been with better nerves I think. But still, my favorite player ever. Serral - Yes, admittingly, Serral is my 2nd favorite player. And sure, his dominance and the way he can make the game boring are as huge parts of these as his storyline...the one that wasn't a foreign hope, but a foreign tyrant instead. But what I love most about him is the fact that he brought me back to SC2. After Snute (semi-)retired, I honestly was kind of done with SC2. I didn't feel like watching more of it, I just checked results here and there. But when I heard during BlizzCon that there was a foreigner who didn't just had a chance against the koreans, but destroyed them one by one, I atleast had to check it out...and the spark for SC2 was back baby! Reynor - to complete the Zerg-trio, I have to go with Reynor. And believe me, that was a long road. Because at first, he definetly was not a favorite, purely by the fact that he was Serrals rival. But over the years, his chaotic playstyle and lets face it, funny personality, just grew on me. And him and Serral teaming up is basically the closest to some 4Kings-Magic we will ever get again :3 4 to 10 in no order: Grubby Kane Nerchio Showtime Harstem Innovation Skillous | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On August 26 2024 00:13 Cricketer12 wrote: Hell yeah. Off the top of my head I've got DRG sOs Stats HuK Polt PartinG Ryung Scarlett Taeja Classic Impact Departure Rag god bravo soO mvp maru rogue Min Classic I love me some lair tech zergs with obvious flaws. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On August 26 2024 01:26 Mizenhauer wrote: Impact Departure Rag god bravo soO mvp maru rogue Min Classic I love me some lair tech zergs with obvious flaws. That time Departure flew to England to win peraphs the most depressing tournament of all time (well for me) over Snute and a bunch of other top foreigners in an empty movie theater is one of my core SC2 memory. I think Richard Lewis was casting or something? Just utherly bizzare weekend. | ||
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johnnyh123
89 Posts
- IdrA: just love to see him lose honestly, his rage quits were awesome - MKP: his aggressive style, bringing the boys made SC2 super exciting to watch - MVP: the 3 old era GOAT of Terran, his story and comebacks were also amazing - MC: the 3 old era GOAT of Protoss, BossToss, and unusual in his outward display of emotion and celebration - Nestea: the 3 old era GOAT of Zerg, one of the most consistent player - Huk: the foreigner hope in the early days - Rain: shield of Aegis, played Protoss in a completely different style and yet one of the best - Maru: the successor to MKP, all-round player that tried so many different styles and still evolving - herO: the Protoss of chaos, especially of late, it's just so cool to see him play - Reynor: one of the best zergs, he is very emotionally invested in the game, and you see it through his style of play Players I considered: Life, TLO, Polt, MMA, Stephano, White-Ra, Leenock, TY, sOs, Dark, Innovation, Has. | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On August 26 2024 01:48 johnnyh123 wrote: Favorite players on top of my head and in no particularly order: - IdrA: just love to see him lose honestly, his rage quits were awesome - MKP: his aggressive style, bringing the boys made SC2 super exciting to watch - MVP: the 3 old era GOAT of Terran, his story and comebacks were also amazing - MC: the 3 old era GOAT of Protoss, BossToss, and unusual in his outward display of emotion and celebration - Nestea: the 3 old era GOAT of Zerg, one of the most consistent player - Huk: the foreigner hope in the early days - Rain: shield of Aegis, played Protoss in a completely different style and yet one of the best - Maru: the successor to MKP, all-round player that tried so many different styles and still evolving - herO: the Protoss of chaos, especially of late, it's just so cool to see him play - Reynor: one of the best zergs, he is very emotionally invested in the game, and you see it through his style of play Players I considered: Life, TLO, Polt, MMA, Stephano, White-Ra, Leenock, TY, sOs, Dark, Innovation, Has. Mvp, Rain and Maru? You are a man of great taste. | ||
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Blitzball04
146 Posts
On August 25 2024 17:04 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Instead of debating the #1 GOAT spot all the time, why don't we have some fun and discuss some other interesting comparisons? For example, who would you put higher, MC or Nestea? MMA or Polt? Or how would you order Life, MVP, Taeja? and how about the Protoss who have a case for top 15? Stats, herO, Classic, Trap, MC? soO or sOs? Both with tons of 2nd places, soO with more but sOs with 2 more WC wins Here's another idea: Since we've had a big TL GOAT article, how about we make a thread for another TL community ranking, where everyone shares their Top 15, and then we compile the results? Now would be a great time to do it! The last one was in 2018 i believe. It would be cool to see what people think now so we can look back on it in the future. Boss toss MMA Life, Taeja, MVP MC is hands down top 15 sOs the man was entertaining and twice works champ | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
The first pro game I had ever watch of sc2 was one of bomber, and my jaw dropped of what he could do with Sc2 units after I just beat the WOL campaign. Where would you guys place bomber? | ||
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Ciaus237
South Africa258 Posts
On August 26 2024 00:57 Balnazza wrote: That reminds me...during the height of the GOAT-Articles, I planned to make a post about "your favorite players". Just so everyone can present their favorites and the reasons why they love them, without the pressure of statistics, trophies and comparisons behind it. Hey, when your favorite player is KeeN because you KeeN't believe how fun he is, that is good for you! Always been a filthy Zerg fan, so I quite liked Stephano, Snute and (forgive me) RoRo. At the beginning of HotS he had some games that showed he was not quite the same story as Sniper. Ryung, TY, Stats, Gumiho are all players I've liked to follow a little more than others. Gumiho especially makes some amazing and unique games. But my all time favorite is Rogue. God I loved watching Rogue just stomp fan favorites in the most unusual ways. His big win over soO in 2017 was utterly devastating to many fans, but oooooh so good. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
Other then that Maru, Inno, Dark are the players I always cheered for | ||
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Luolis
Finland7096 Posts
Mvp: Forever the GOAT in my heart. Grubby: Classy player, always wanted him to do well. Naama: This guy made me switch from protoss to terran because i thought his playstyle was cool af. In hindsight this may have been a mistake. Serral: I mean just look at my country xd StarDust: Made for entertaining games. Also super nice guy. elfi: 100 apm goat. Unorthodox, entertaining and Finnish. Taeja: Weekender beast who played some of the best games in the history of SC2. Also one of my moms fav players. White-Ra: I mean its Whitera cmon :D NesTea: The OG Zerg king. One of the most sympathetic champions of all time and a trailblazer for Zergs. Polt: Made every weekender better with his participation. One of those guys you couldnt cheer against. BONUS: MarineKing (before the incident). | ||
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Pentarp
210 Posts
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Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On August 26 2024 03:41 Luolis wrote: For favorite players (no particular order) i would say: Mvp: Forever the GOAT in my heart. Grubby: Classy player, always wanted him to do well. Naama: This guy made me switch from protoss to terran because i thought his playstyle was cool af. In hindsight this may have been a mistake. Serral: I mean just look at my country xd StarDust: Made for entertaining games. Also super nice guy. elfi: 100 apm goat. Unorthodox, entertaining and Finnish. Taeja: Weekender beast who played some of the best games in the history of SC2. Also one of my moms fav players. White-Ra: I mean its Whitera cmon :D NesTea: The OG Zerg king. One of the most sympathetic champions of all time and a trailblazer for Zergs. Polt: Made every weekender better with his participation. One of those guys you couldnt cheer against. BONUS: MarineKing (before the incident). My favorite players who do inexplicably bad things. INnoVation: walking back and forth with his army because the machine has crashed and he has no idea what to do. Maru: still working on keeping his depots up sOs: lost to raised depot ParalyzE: incredibly bad mothership core usage soO: attacking off creep Flash: any time he had to use bio was a disaster ByuN: still working on defending Zest: nice bank bro Serral: sucking all the fun out of the game by being too good Dark: why do we feel the need to play most games from behind? | ||
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Luolis
Finland7096 Posts
On August 26 2024 03:49 Mizenhauer wrote: My favorite players who do inexplicably bad things. INnoVation: walking back and forth with his army because the machine has crashed and he has no idea what to do. Maru: still working on keeping his depots up sOs: lost to raised depot ParalyzE: incredibly bad mothership core usage soO: attacking off creep Flash: any time he had to use bio was a disaster ByuN: still working on defending Zest: nice bank bro Serral: sucking all the fun out of the game by being too good Dark: why do we feel the need to play most games from behind? Hahahahahahaha | ||
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rwala
272 Posts
On August 25 2024 17:04 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Instead of debating the #1 GOAT spot all the time, why don't we have some fun and discuss some other interesting comparisons? For example, who would you put higher, MC or Nestea? MMA or Polt? Or how would you order Life, MVP, Taeja? and how about the Protoss who have a case for top 15? Stats, herO, Classic, Trap, MC? soO or sOs? Both with tons of 2nd places, soO with more but sOs with 2 more WC wins Here's another idea: Since we've had a big TL GOAT article, how about we make a thread for another TL community ranking, where everyone shares their Top 15, and then we compile the results? Now would be a great time to do it! The last one was in 2018 i believe. It would be cool to see what people think now so we can look back on it in the future. Love these ideas! Here would be mine, with not so much rhyme or reason but roughly based on my own subjective feelings regarding the value of their achievements and impact on the game/esports more generally: 1. Rogue 2. Maru 3. Serral 4. Mvp 5. SOS 6. Innovation 7. Zest 8. NesTea 9. TY 10. Dark 11. Byun 12. Soo 13. Rain 14. MC 15. her0 Life doesn't make my list for obvious reasons, though as you can see from the rankings more generally I have subjective markers of greatness influencing this quite significantly. I want to add Stats, Flash, and Reynor but I also don't want to kick any of these guys off  I also want to give an honorary spot to Fruitdealer for best player ID | ||
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catplanetcatplanet
3829 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24264 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24264 Posts
On August 26 2024 05:23 rwala wrote: Love these ideas! Here would be mine, with not so much rhyme or reason but roughly based on my own subjective feelings regarding the value of their achievements and impact on the game/esports more generally: 1. Rogue 2. Maru 3. Serral 4. Mvp 5. SOS 6. Innovation 7. Zest 8. NesTea 9. TY 10. Dark 11. Byun 12. Soo 13. Rain 14. MC 15. her0 Life doesn't make my list for obvious reasons, though as you can see from the rankings more generally I have subjective markers of greatness influencing this quite significantly. I want to add Stats, Flash, and Reynor but I also don't want to kick any of these guys off I also want to give an honorary spot to Fruitdealer for best player ID I will forever rail against any list that has Rogue at #1 but overall pretty solid! | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On August 26 2024 05:49 WombaT wrote: What does the best composite player look like? Maru with the mental toughness of Mvp.... but I would settle with the mental toughness of Liquid Hero at this point. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10305 Posts
Throw inthe multi-tasking/speed of Reynor's Protoss and Parting's aggression / micro to make it easier I think Protoss has the highest potential if we're talking about godlike human capability Protoss are able to be high/top players while clearly lacking in big areas while I don't feel the same for T and Z; there seems to be many different aspects to Protoss available to master My favorite SC2 players: sOs (surpassed SlayerS Boxer by at least a little in HotS imo) SlayerS Boxer (we can say him right??) Nestea MC Rainbow Fruitdealer Polt MMA Creator Rogue HM: jjajki (Jjajki vs Leenock was one of the most underrated/forgotten GSL finals, that series was WILD) Something like that! | ||
Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
On August 25 2024 15:28 Waxangel wrote: Hi, instead of bumping 5 different articles after every tournament, why not just keep fighting each other in one place? I enjoy them bumping 5 different articles | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16598 Posts
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Blargh
United States2101 Posts
On August 26 2024 09:43 Shellshock wrote: I enjoy them bumping 5 different articles Keeps you on your toes! | ||
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Azzur
Australia6255 Posts
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2190 Posts
I had switched to Terran for a while in 2012, but that finals and Squirtle's performance immediately made me switch back to Toss, the race i still play to this date. I would always root for him, and each of his victories felt deserved and like he outplayed the competition, and his losses seemed unfair, unlucky, or balance issued - thought patterns like these really only emerge once you're a hardcore fan of someone, i suppose :D That time of SC2 was the peak for me, the era before BL/INF took over, and Squirtle played a huge part in it. Somewhere in my heart, he will forever be my GOAT, even if his reign lasted for a month and a half. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24264 Posts
Not always perfectly, which was part of his charm but he’s probably the guy who did the most to really lay the blueprints on how to play a more straight-up macro style with Protoss. When Rain was starting to make a few waves I recall him being asked who he was watching and taking from, and it was one name and it was HerO, and I think it shows. There’s a lot of HerO there just without the fragility. Sadly Rain didn’t stick around or I’d be pretty confident he’d be at the very least the Protoss GOAT. But hey it’s a ball the likes of Stats took and ran with. In the spirit of this new thread, who are the most overrated/underrated players we’ve seen? | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2428 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13964 Posts
On August 26 2024 19:43 swarminfestor wrote: Can we have a list of The Worst Player of All Time (WOAT)? Just like Razzie's recognition of the worst actors etc. He's not even the worst, but Oz | ||
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Bennito_bh
15 Posts
1. Serral - I don't even know why, I just can't root against the guy 2. TY - The only player who consistently made TvT fun for me to watch! 3. herO - Fun as hell to watch, plus he's a real class act 4. Maxpax - Also fun to watch, love his distinct styles and brutal 1-gate fast expand defenses 5. Astrea - What can I say, he's sexy 6. Time/Oliveira - Loved watching him make runs in WCS, his style was just so aggro and relentless and the last year and a half since he came up a tier has been brilliant 7. Boss Toss - What isn't there to love? 8. Stats - Shield of Aiur, love how he and Showtime carried the defensive Toss flag for years 9. Die Mauer - I'm realizing I enjoy watching reactive Z and P and aggressive T 10. Bunny/Skillous/Trigger - It's a tie for 10th, I can't choose between them. I'll watch anything these guys play in | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
This is Oz slander! The WOAT is clearly BBoongBBoong. First, all-time terrible name, a name so clearly destined for mediocrity I can't even believe anyone allowed him to sign up to a tournament. Second, can you imagine someone paid BBoongBBoong to lose a match of professional Starcraft? I almost feel bad for the match-fixers, that's basically extortion. Then I remembered they were stupid enough to put their future in the hands of a guy who named himself ''Fart Sound''. Third, I mean just read those Liquipedia trivia: - Wore black tape over his nipples and ate pizza between games - Also displayed his enjoyment of eating during his appearance on GSL Off the Record, when challenged to eat a bowl of instant noodles during a match and win, he upped the ante and challenged himself (though unsuccessfully) to also eat another bowl of instant noodles and two rice seaweed rolls and drink a carton of chocolate milk and a glass of water. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16598 Posts
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Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On August 27 2024 00:19 Nakajin wrote: This is Oz slander! The WOAT is clearly BBoongBBoong. First, all-time terrible name, a name so clearly destined for mediocrity I can't even believe anyone allowed him to sign up to a tournament. Second, can you imagine someone paid BBoongBBoong to lose a match of professional Starcraft? I almost feel bad for the match-fixers, that's basically extortion. Then I remembered they were stupid enough to put their future in the hands of a guy who named himself ''Fart Sound''. Third, I mean just read those Liquipedia trivia: - Wore black tape over his nipples and ate pizza between games - Also displayed his enjoyment of eating during his appearance on GSL Off the Record, when challenged to eat a bowl of instant noodles during a match and win, he upped the ante and challenged himself (though unsuccessfully) to also eat another bowl of instant noodles and two rice seaweed rolls and drink a carton of chocolate milk and a glass of water. Don't you dare speak ill of the legendary B4. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3340 Posts
I think Serral was stronger than Maru in 2018, but it's true that Maru's achievements were stronger, especially if we include the 4th GSL. It's kind of unfair because serral couldn't have done it better than he did, but GSLs are more impressive, especially when you don't have to face Serral in WCS because your name is serral. This is assuming the game is balanced, if it weren't then Maru was also stronger. The reason World championships are worth more than gsl is because it represents having beaten all the world has to offer. It's true that 1 qualifier from 5 different regions lead to a weaker lineup than 5 korean qualifiers. But im one of these tournaments you're the best in the world, and in the other you're the best in korea. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24264 Posts
Oz was incredible. A build genius You know how pretentious, annoying people will stick on the worst record you’ve ever heard and say ‘well, they’re more of a musician’s musician you know?’ Oz is basically like that but with StarCraft. Yeah Zest may have basically set the standard meta for years, but did he come up with a FFE build versus Terran that was actually good? I think not! | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16598 Posts
TL is releasing a new official Clem shirt. It's initial design concept is top secret and I am breaking NDA to give you guys an advanced look at it. Clem > Serral ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/1OPVowD.jpeg) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24264 Posts
On August 27 2024 00:19 Nakajin wrote: This is Oz slander! The WOAT is clearly BBoongBBoong. First, all-time terrible name, a name so clearly destined for mediocrity I can't even believe anyone allowed him to sign up to a tournament. Second, can you imagine someone paid BBoongBBoong to lose a match of professional Starcraft? I almost feel bad for the match-fixers, that's basically extortion. Then I remembered they were stupid enough to put their future in the hands of a guy who named himself ''Fart Sound''. Third, I mean just read those Liquipedia trivia: - Wore black tape over his nipples and ate pizza between games - Also displayed his enjoyment of eating during his appearance on GSL Off the Record, when challenged to eat a bowl of instant noodles during a match and win, he upped the ante and challenged himself (though unsuccessfully) to also eat another bowl of instant noodles and two rice seaweed rolls and drink a carton of chocolate milk and a glass of water. I’m getting paid to lose? Isn’t that just called being a progamer? | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On August 27 2024 04:02 JimmyJRaynor wrote: A lot of TL upper management is quite angry about how little recognition Clem is getting as GOAT. Serral gets all the love even though he lost 5 straight to Clem. TL is releasing a new official Clem shirt. It's initial design concept is top secret and I am breaking NDA to give you guys an advanced look at it. Clem > Serral Don't worry, Clem content is on the way. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24264 Posts
Which isn’t taking away from his talent at all. He may be the best player mechanically the game has ever seen. A game whose top players are so good mechanically that, outside of BW, even mid-tier players can swap to basically any RTS and be (purely mechanically) better than veterans of that game. So, a hell of an accolade. For me anyway he’s surpassed guys like Byun, Oliveira, Cure, Gumiho. Speaking of my underrated/overrated list, there’s two of each from that pool! But unless something crazy happens, SC2 ends up with a bunch of new money, new players and we start to see new talent flourishing, I honestly can’t think of what Clem could ever do in the current SOTG to push above Maru, Inno or Mvp. Serral for me did it, despite the gradual decline in scene depth. 6 years of basically unparalleled consistency, a winning H2H versus basically everyone, not having a weak matchup (relatively speaking), maybe having the strongest matchup we’ve ever seen in his ZvP. Clem hasn’t done most of those things, and if he eventually does it’s from the base of a 2024 scene. Aside from the absolute lunatics who make out that Serral’s accomplishments count for jack, because people apparently forgot how to play the second Kespa pulled out, I think most would concede that Serral doing his thing way back in 2018 was within a scene that still had rather a lot of depth. I love Clem, but even if he absolutely exploded I don’t think one can really argue the same in 2024 | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19201 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + HyuN's win streak in the IPL Fight Club is often regarded as one of the greatest achievements in StarCraft II history due to its sheer dominance and consistency against top-tier competition. Over the span of several months, HyuN demonstrated exceptional skill and resilience, defeating a wide array of opponents, including some of the best players in the world at that time. His ability to maintain such a high level of performance week after week is a testament to his strategic brilliance and mechanical prowess. Below is a list of HyuN's wins during his historic run:
This 14-match win streak is unparalleled in StarCraft II's history, not just for the number of victories but for the quality of opponents he defeated. HyuN's achievement in the IPL Fight Club is a shining example of excellence in esports, showcasing his unmatched consistency and skill at the highest levels of competition. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24264 Posts
On August 27 2024 05:17 BisuDagger wrote: Hyun’s fight club streak is unmatched by any other. He has the GOAT achievement hands down. Hyunbelievable | ||
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johnnyh123
89 Posts
- Pitting certain players similar or very different from each other: e.g., MMA vs Bomber, Huk vs Naniwa, jjakji vs Clem... - Favorite in each regions: e.g., NA/EU/KR/... - WOAT: Worst of all time, I LOL Some other ideas: - WIAT: Worst influence of All Time, think Life, don't even want to talk about it - MAAT: Most Abusive of All Time, think Innovation with Hell bats - SOAT: Saddest Of All Time, think SoO with how ever many 2nd place finishes he has - OTP: One Trick Pony, think early day Byun with Reapers - BTAT: Best Throw of All Time, think Solar getting nuked, or Idra leaving a won game against Huk/MMA | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24264 Posts
On August 27 2024 06:47 johnnyh123 wrote: I like this thread, lots of great idea: - Pitting certain players similar or very different from each other: e.g., MMA vs Bomber, Huk vs Naniwa, jjakji vs Clem... - Favorite in each regions: e.g., NA/EU/KR/... - WOAT: Worst of all time, I LOL Some other ideas: - WIAT: Worst influence of All Time, think Life, don't even want to talk about it - MAAT: Most Abusive of All Time, think Innovation with Hell bats - SOAT: Saddest Of All Time, think SoO with how ever many 2nd place finishes he has - OTP: One Trick Pony, think early day Byun with Reapers - BTAT: Best Throw of All Time, think Solar getting nuked, or Idra leaving a won game against Huk/MMA There isn’t a huge amount of competition with biggest throw of all time and Idra leaving games, or perhaps there is! Be interested to have my memory refreshed! Innovation I dunno if I’d have him as most abusive, because he was so bloody good anyway. A player like Roro perhaps who did jack shit outside of a particular meta. Parting was a quality player but if there’s a player who abused the most annoying aspects of Protoss it was him. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10305 Posts
Some off the top of my head: Jjajki vs Leenock MVP vs Squirtle Maru vs TY (idk which one) | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3340 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24264 Posts
On August 27 2024 14:22 ejozl wrote: Bitbybit scv pulls. Puma 1,1,1. Scarlett when tier 2 zerg mass muta could beat tier 3 terran. Rogue with invincible nydus. Maru also with scv pulls in hots. Tester with the trickster pylon trick. Bomber doom drops. Guru f2. Some of those were so genuinely disgusting haha. Others may have their personal hates, I don’t think any meta frustrated me more than the 1-1-1 meta. Maybe playing versus BL/Infestor, but my PvZ has always been my bad matchup, and my PvT my best. It felt especially sickening having my safe space invaded I’d also add for Scarlett when her baneling bombs won an epic base trade game, and hey Bomber appears again! Kiwikaki, a player probably most deserving of the ‘creative’ tag in terms of his tactical brilliance at times debuting the Archon toilet. Also the same player picking (I wanna say Stephano?) apart by being the first pro in a meaningful game to really use mothership recall to some of its potential Liquid HerO versus Jaedong, IEM Cologne. A basically failed Soul TrainTM into an even more desperately all-in Soul TrainTM that leads to a legit 5-10 minute constant engagement where he breaks him. What’s the Tester pylon trick? That’s the one I can’t recall. Indeed I can’t even recall Tester at all! Did he change nick at some stage? | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3340 Posts
On August 27 2024 15:46 WombaT wrote: Some of those were so genuinely disgusting haha. Others may have their personal hates, I don’t think any meta frustrated me more than the 1-1-1 meta. Maybe playing versus BL/Infestor, but my PvZ has always been my bad matchup, and my PvT my best. It felt especially sickening having my safe space invaded I’d also add for Scarlett when her baneling bombs won an epic base trade game, and hey Bomber appears again! Kiwikaki, a player probably most deserving of the ‘creative’ tag in terms of his tactical brilliance at times debuting the Archon toilet. Also the same player picking (I wanna say Stephano?) apart by being the first pro in a meaningful game to really use mothership recall to some of its potential Liquid HerO versus Jaedong, IEM Cologne. A basically failed Soul TrainTM into an even more desperately all-in Soul TrainTM that leads to a legit 5-10 minute constant engagement where he breaks him. What’s the Tester pylon trick? That’s the one I can’t recall. Indeed I can’t even recall Tester at all! Did he change nick at some stage? Trickster. It was when you could make a 2x pylin wall at the bottom of the ramp. Then it was nerfes to requiring 3 pylons and ppl kept doing it. Select did the same, but with bunkers. | ||
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Ciaus237
South Africa258 Posts
On August 27 2024 14:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: We should also rank the 10 best GSL finals of all time Some off the top of my head: Jjajki vs Leenock MVP vs Squirtle Maru vs TY (idk which one) Purely for the memes and narrative: Soulkey vs Innovation was the one that stuck with me most. Absolute scenes when the third consecutive roach bane allin rolled through the best mechanical player the game had seen  | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On August 27 2024 14:22 ejozl wrote: Bitbybit scv pulls. Puma 1,1,1. Scarlett when tier 2 zerg mass muta could beat tier 3 terran. Rogue with invincible nydus. Maru also with scv pulls in hots. Tester with the trickster pylon trick. Bomber doom drops. Guru f2. On the subject of Scarlett and signature builds, Masa once beat her at an offline WESG qualifier final going proxy 4 rax marine every single game. I've never seen anything like it. At least that's how I remember it, it seems to have been lost to time. | ||
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allmotor1
152 Posts
On August 27 2024 14:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: We should also rank the 10 best GSL finals of all time Some off the top of my head: Jjajki vs Leenock MVP vs Squirtle Maru vs TY (idk which one) Wow, I haven't heard of JJaki in a looong time. I remember he was real solid for awhile and disappeared or dropped off pretty fast. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19201 Posts
On August 27 2024 14:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: We should also rank the 10 best GSL finals of all time Some off the top of my head: Jjajki vs Leenock MVP vs Squirtle Maru vs TY (idk which one) DRG vs MMA still stands as a top 5 for me. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On August 28 2024 00:03 BisuDagger wrote: DRG vs MMA still stands as a top 5 for me. one of my favorite ones is also sOs vs Inno. Just the machine trying to weather the crazy shit sOs throws at him and also going to g7. Back then it also solidified Inno as the Goat | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On August 28 2024 01:04 Charoisaur wrote: one of my favorite ones is also sOs vs Inno. Just the machine trying to weather the crazy shit sOs throws at him and also going to g7. Back then it also solidified Inno as the Goat https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/616469-the-best-worst-final-sos-vs-innovation A series so crazy, it deserved an article. | ||
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Biedrik
United States94 Posts
On August 27 2024 14:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: We should also rank the 10 best GSL finals of all time Some off the top of my head: Jjajki vs Leenock MVP vs Squirtle Maru vs TY (idk which one) Don't forget Parting vs He Who Must Not Be Named. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
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Captain Peabody
United States3096 Posts
Anyway, I can at least put together a pretty good (odd) list of players that I have at one point or other been attached to and cheered for... Nony TLO Jinro MC MMA Naniwa Life Mana sOs Neeb Byun Harstem Reynor Oliviera herO | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24264 Posts
On August 29 2024 05:36 Captain Peabody wrote: This thread is actually getting me to go down memory lane a little bit to think about my favorite players. What it's made me realize is that I haven't really had favorite players per se since WoL. In BW I had an intense devotion to Stork (a sad thing to have), then in early WoL I cheered very hard for a few players who would never really "make it." After I took my break from SC2 in the BW/Infestor era and came back, though, I never really did that again. I have a lot of players since then that I've liked and even loved, players that won me over and that I cheered for, but never a player that I've been a fan of in that sense where I cheered for them in everything over everyone no matter what and got upset if they lose. Anyway, I can at least put together a pretty good (odd) list of players that I have at one point or other been attached to and cheered for... Nony TLO Jinro MC MMA Naniwa Life Mana sOs Neeb Byun Harstem Reynor Oliviera herO Yeah, Trap almost got there, but I think part of that was he was sorta the Protoss hope for such a long chunk that influenced it. In terms of a player I’d religiously follow and be genuinely annoyed with losses I don’t think I’ve really had one since Liquid HerO Which has both positives and negatives. Not for hipster reasons, but I support an Italian team in football. So this lets me watch the English Premier League as something of a neutral. I do miss out a bit on emotional investment, equally I can sorta appreciate teams in a slightly different way. And because I don’t support an English team my workmates can’t make fun of me when they’ve lost at the weekend! | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3340 Posts
To continue in this: TY vs. PartinG, I believe is some of the most brilliant sc2 we've witnessed. Two very mechanically gifted(well practiced) players, having a battle of the mind. | ||
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johnnyh123
89 Posts
On August 27 2024 07:13 WombaT wrote: There isn’t a huge amount of competition with biggest throw of all time and Idra leaving games, or perhaps there is! Be interested to have my memory refreshed! Innovation I dunno if I’d have him as most abusive, because he was so bloody good anyway. A player like Roro perhaps who did jack shit outside of a particular meta. Parting was a quality player but if there’s a player who abused the most annoying aspects of Protoss it was him. I threw out these ideas in the hope that someone would jump in and help me live some nostalgia. So bumping this haha. I'm a Protoss player (or was), and Protoss has been, and will always be, the weakest race. So any Protoss that wins any game in anyways, is a win in my book LOL. So while I don't like Parting's style that much, but he is a win in my book lol. Hence the reason I love Rain/Has so much, Rain is just the best Protoss at defending (and if you defend well, you will eventually win). Or Has, who throws so much chaos that he can sometimes win against players way better than him. | ||
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