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Northern Ireland26611 Posts
On July 31 2024 22:28 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2024 16:17 ejozl wrote:
A big problem is that of the ace match, this is clearly a harder match. How would you tackle the problem of a team like CJ with a clear best player, that of herO and a stacked team, where even a player like Flash, or Life might not even get fielded. There is also the thing of sniping a specific player. Rogue might be a player who was used as a sacrificial piece, or sniper versus the other teams best player, this would clearly hamper his rating. I would not overrate the significance of "sacrifical lambs" or "snipers" in this metric. In the blind pick nature of Proleague one could make educated guesses at best, which player plays in which slot to sacrifice one or try to snipe somebody. Also, a GOAT should not care if he gets sniped or is used as a sacrificial lamb (even writing it down seems counter-intuitive  )... he simply wins whatever is thrown at him. Thus, I am not sure, if there should be any compensation or metric for snipers or sacrificial lambs. Further, in an individual tournament, every match in knockout stage is an ace-match. If we include this thought, team results would be in need of more down-regulation in relation to individual tournaments, because the ace-match is only a very small portion of the overall matches. Out of considerations for impact and practicability (as this whole list is enough work already), I wouldn't divide this metric any further because of the things you mentioned. Show nested quote +On July 31 2024 20:31 Charoisaur wrote:On July 31 2024 20:10 ejozl wrote:
I think for tournaments we should look at it like this: if you win a tournament it symbolizes that you overcame the entire field of players, whereas a second place means you beat one of the brackets, meaning you beat half the player field, semi finals players beat a quarter of the field and so on. With 3rd place it's a little more complicated, but in most of sc2 we didn't have many 3rd\4th placement matches. Yeah I think that's a pretty good way of looking at it. According to this you'd think winning a tournament is worth the same as getting 2nd twice? Just saying: You know, why I used Miz' ratio so far, right? To help Maru in relation to Serral...
It gets complicated in a game that status is so otherwise overwhelmingly dictated by individual performances. Too complicated IMO, or I perhaps lack the brainpower to come up with a cogent formula!
One probably does perhaps want to account for the overall strength of your team as per team placements, plus the average quality of player you actually faced too.
It gets even harder due to Proleague being relatively short-lived compared to the span of the wider game too. Sample sizes become quite small so hot streaks can really have a big impact.
I mean Innovation is undoubtedly a Proleague, and general team league monster, but he sat out a full season.
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On August 01 2024 02:24 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2024 20:31 Charoisaur wrote:On July 31 2024 20:10 ejozl wrote:
I think for tournaments we should look at it like this: if you win a tournament it symbolizes that you overcame the entire field of players, whereas a second place means you beat one of the brackets, meaning you beat half the player field, semi finals players beat a quarter of the field and so on. With 3rd place it's a little more complicated, but in most of sc2 we didn't have many 3rd\4th placement matches. Yeah I think that's a pretty good way of looking at it. According to this you'd think winning a tournament is worth the same as getting 2nd twice? Yes, you won 2 half tournaments equating to one whole tournament.
oh
so Maru has a Katowice win afterall
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While we mortals and fans debate who the GOAT is... pro players are very clear about this. Whether we like it or not, Serral is the name that comes out of their mouths. You can look for any excuse to say that any player is better... you can manipulate the statistical criteria in a certain way to favor one or the other... but to put Maru over Serral you must do things, like the ones they say above that are very illogical .
They both started their years of dominance in the SAME YEARS. If you want, we give more importance to the initial years of SC2 or HOTS ERA and we remove Maru and Serral from the GOAT debate.... but who do we have left??????
These two are contemporaries, in their successful years.
Some people said that they misuse the word "dominant", come on guys, it's just common sense.....no one has a 100% win rate...everyone loses...but the one who loses the least is the most dominant. I don't think we need to go into detail about this topic... holy cow. WHOEVER wrote that doesn't know how unreal it is that Maru and Serral have a 70% win rate and that they maintain it for 6 or 7 years, it's crazy.
By the way, being 2nd is not even close to winning No. 1.... if u wanna be the GOAT... the only thing you want is to win the entire tournament. less if you lose against the other GOAT nominee
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10 pages of comments to debate who is the GOAT while you can resume it in on sentence, the goat is a zerg....
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If any ex GSL champion, with the exception of Rain, had had Maru's continuing success, or Stat's stability, or Clem's talent... each of them would have continued playing the game.
The lack of numbers impacts competitivness? It does, but more on the A tier list then in the top Code S champion caliber i think.
The ones that remained are the ones that would have kept winning even if those who left had stayed. Simply cus : they left cus they didnt see a winnable future.
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On August 05 2024 21:30 Locutos wrote:
If any ex GSL champion, with the exception of Rain, had had Maru's continuing success, or Stat's stability, or Clem's talent... each of them would have continued playing the game.
The lack of numbers impacts competitivness? It does, but more on the A tier list then in the top Code S champion caliber i think.
The ones that remained are the ones that would have kept winning even if those who left had stayed. Simply cus : they left cus they didnt see a winnable future.
I see where you're coming from but I think military skews with that a bit as it seems to be extremely difficult to get back to your old level after a 2 years break and some players couldn't quite do it despite imo normally having the talent/ability to keep playing at the top if they weren't forced to take a break.
Not to mention the 2 years of results you miss out on by virtue of being in the military
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On August 05 2024 22:42 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2024 21:30 Locutos wrote:
If any ex GSL champion, with the exception of Rain, had had Maru's continuing success, or Stat's stability, or Clem's talent... each of them would have continued playing the game.
The lack of numbers impacts competitivness? It does, but more on the A tier list then in the top Code S champion caliber i think.
The ones that remained are the ones that would have kept winning even if those who left had stayed. Simply cus : they left cus they didnt see a winnable future. I see where you're coming from but I think military skews with that a bit as it seems to be extremely difficult to get back to your old level after a 2 years break and some players couldn't quite do it despite imo normally having the talent/ability to keep playing at the top if they weren't forced to take a break. Not to mention the 2 years of results you miss out on by virtue of being in the military
This military "issue" is the thing that is active question for Serral's case right now.
Finnish conscription and Korean army are ofc two very different things. It can be relatively easily observed and determined that Serral on average suffer from his mandatory military service less than his top Korean peers. It could be even so that he clearly benefits from his recent circumstances career-wise and competition wise. The FDF Sports school environment for the first ever E-sports GI-Joona IS likely very, very good environment for preparation what comes next, or follows.
It is only good, happy lucky strike for the FDF that there is Serral pioneering these things. Modest, intelligent, competitive drive, success during the service that what he may ever say about the corps from E-sports specific perspectives, doesn't appear only as a theory on a paper... He is active, pioneering subject participating to the project of creation of the corps of 'Military E-Sports' in Finland.
In the future, as time goes by, there will be likely a recommendation, citation, or medal like 'Joona Sotala' -award, or something like that for the performance, contribution, and success in their respective arts...
Military argument in the goat debate should be handled as buff/perk for Serral both game playing-wise and legacy-wise relative to Korean counterparts.
Koreans ask: "Can I play?" or "When I can play?"
Serral asks: "When It's time to play, what resources I can allocate to that?" or "I need this amount of time for off-duty to prepare properly to the next tournament and keep my career going on after the army, and my needs and estimations for this are pretty good and applicable also to other guys coming after me, regardless of do they play same game or not. Ok?"
Lt. X: "Proceed!"
Cpt Y: "Proceed!"
Maj Z: "Proceed!"
...
The President of The Republic to the 1st Woman: "Honey! Should I send an invitation to Joona..."
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Edit: for the reference https://www.iltalehti.fi/muutlajit/a/43c6904b-5b66-4567-a4ab-eaca8f327318 (in Finnish) Interview, July 6th 2024. Synopsis:
- Doesn't particularly like being in the army as being properly professional SC2-player during the service is difficult to do
- Have likely lost tens of thousands of potential winnings money because of it
- Hopes for minimum 165d service time: first months of the service were the hardest
- Could've been able to participate to more tournaments he did, but choose not to by himself: Main aim is to the World Championship tournament
- Considers his Dallas premier performance being 'rusty' due the restrictions and limitiations set by the military service
- Thinks army is overall negative thing to his career
- Is not particularly concerned for his relatively low training time
- In good physical shape. Cooper's test: 2450m
- the eldest in his company, and only millionaire
- Applauds the Sports school and it's activities; recommends it for other E-Sports gamers
Seems to me that everything is going fine there.
![[image loading]](https://img.ilcdn.fi/IExz6L8jS5vOP4g7IiCZqSmu-hI=/169x0:2835x2000/full-fit-in/920x0/img-s3.ilcdn.fi/ecf76abf60ed5e1a108271d6a965c5dd36f12a66283c9776143a888fef1e00d2.jpg)
Photo courtesy: Iltalehti/Mikko Huisko
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[B]Military argument in the goat debate should be handled as buff/perk for Serral both game playing-wise and legacy-wise relative to Korean counterparts.
Lmao what? In what logical universe this makes even a lick of sense?
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On August 06 2024 07:07 lokol4890 wrote:Show nested quote +[B]Military argument in the goat debate should be handled as buff/perk for Serral both game playing-wise and legacy-wise relative to Korean counterparts. Lmao what? In what logical universe this makes even a lick of sense?
Serral suffers from his military service less than his Korean peers => A Korean lose 2 years of his career with very little opportunity to train while Serral lose only 165 or 255 or 347 days (likely 165d) while still being able to practice... enough well to win premier final vs Maru, for example.
Logically, how Serral's military service compared to average Korean player's military service wouldn't be "buff" or "perk" for Serral?
In the Goat discussion there often appear that "how hard it is to achieve X or Y" -argument. Military service is certainly easier for Serral than his Korean peers at least if we project how well he likely comes out from it performance- and career continuation -wise. Legacy -wise there are no discussion there: Serral is the first E-Sport athlete ever accepted to the FDF Sports School: what he does and think, inevitably set some standards, protocols, practices and models how things develop thereafter. He is only professional of his field of art there within the unit, higher ranks and commanding officers included.
Please explain how there are no 'lick of sense' there.
ADD: In other words, in this context, one must set a hell load of penalties for Serral and everything he does during his military service to be fair for the other GOAT candidate, not suffering from this buff. 
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Note also that in every off-line tournament where Serral participates during his mandatory military service, is de facto 'command'. This practically means that he doesn't represent only SC2-professional Joona Sotala, but also, and primarily his military unit and ultimately, Finland. Relative freedoms and privileges of athletes accepted to the FDF Sport School come with high responsibility...
In the World Championships there will be Finnish soldier Joona Sotala following his orders and conducting his command, regardless of is he called the GOAT or not.
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United States33592 Posts
On August 06 2024 05:01 UnLarva wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2024 22:42 Charoisaur wrote:On August 05 2024 21:30 Locutos wrote:
If any ex GSL champion, with the exception of Rain, had had Maru's continuing success, or Stat's stability, or Clem's talent... each of them would have continued playing the game.
The lack of numbers impacts competitivness? It does, but more on the A tier list then in the top Code S champion caliber i think.
The ones that remained are the ones that would have kept winning even if those who left had stayed. Simply cus : they left cus they didnt see a winnable future. I see where you're coming from but I think military skews with that a bit as it seems to be extremely difficult to get back to your old level after a 2 years break and some players couldn't quite do it despite imo normally having the talent/ability to keep playing at the top if they weren't forced to take a break. Not to mention the 2 years of results you miss out on by virtue of being in the military Edit: for the reference https://www.iltalehti.fi/muutlajit/a/43c6904b-5b66-4567-a4ab-eaca8f327318 (in Finnish) Interview, July 6th 2024. Synopsis: - Doesn't particularly like being in the army as being properly professional SC2-player during the service is difficult to do - Have likely lost tens of thousands of potential winnings money because of it - Hopes for minimum 165d service time: first months of the service were the hardest - Could've been able to participate to more tournaments he did, but choose not to by himself: Main aim is to the World Championship tournament - Considers his Dallas premier performance being 'rusty' due the restrictions and limitiations set by the military service - Thinks army is overall negative thing to his career - Is not particularly concerned for his relatively low training time - In good physical shape. Cooper's test: 2450m - the eldest in his company, and only millionaire - Applauds the Sports school and it's activities; recommends it for other E-Sports gamers Seems to me that everything is going fine there. Photo courtesy: Iltalehti/Mikko Huisko
Independent of the GOAT stuff, thanks for linking this article! Was wondering how military was going for Serral.
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On August 06 2024 08:48 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2024 05:01 UnLarva wrote:On August 05 2024 22:42 Charoisaur wrote:On August 05 2024 21:30 Locutos wrote:
If any ex GSL champion, with the exception of Rain, had had Maru's continuing success, or Stat's stability, or Clem's talent... each of them would have continued playing the game.
The lack of numbers impacts competitivness? It does, but more on the A tier list then in the top Code S champion caliber i think.
The ones that remained are the ones that would have kept winning even if those who left had stayed. Simply cus : they left cus they didnt see a winnable future. I see where you're coming from but I think military skews with that a bit as it seems to be extremely difficult to get back to your old level after a 2 years break and some players couldn't quite do it despite imo normally having the talent/ability to keep playing at the top if they weren't forced to take a break. Not to mention the 2 years of results you miss out on by virtue of being in the military Edit: for the reference https://www.iltalehti.fi/muutlajit/a/43c6904b-5b66-4567-a4ab-eaca8f327318 (in Finnish) Interview, July 6th 2024. Synopsis: - Doesn't particularly like being in the army as being properly professional SC2-player during the service is difficult to do - Have likely lost tens of thousands of potential winnings money because of it - Hopes for minimum 165d service time: first months of the service were the hardest - Could've been able to participate to more tournaments he did, but choose not to by himself: Main aim is to the World Championship tournament - Considers his Dallas premier performance being 'rusty' due the restrictions and limitiations set by the military service - Thinks army is overall negative thing to his career - Is not particularly concerned for his relatively low training time - In good physical shape. Cooper's test: 2450m - the eldest in his company, and only millionaire - Applauds the Sports school and it's activities; recommends it for other E-Sports gamers Seems to me that everything is going fine there. Photo courtesy: Iltalehti/Mikko Huisko Independent of the GOAT stuff, thanks for linking this article! Was wondering how military was going for Serral.
Independent of the GOAT stuff, there are search results for 'Joona Sotala' from 3 biggest Finnish news sources:
YLE (Finnish Public Broadcasting Corporation)
https://haku.yle.fi/?page=1&query=joona serral sotala&type=article
HELSINGIN SANOMAT (Biggest News paper)
https://www.hs.fi/haku/?query=joona sotala&category=kaikki&period=whenever&order=new
ILTA-SANOMAT (Tabloid)
https://www.is.fi/haku/?query=joona serral sotala&category=kaikki&period=whenever&order=new
Not much new articles, but for those who want google translate and read about Serral from Finnish public media perspective, these could be interesting.
Btw, Serral will complete his military service September 26th 2024 after 165d: https://www.is.fi/digitoday/esports/art-2000010534216.html
Sorry @Premobeats for getting carried away and going off topic here with these. But where else? 
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United States33592 Posts
On August 06 2024 13:30 UnLarva wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2024 08:48 Waxangel wrote:On August 06 2024 05:01 UnLarva wrote:On August 05 2024 22:42 Charoisaur wrote:On August 05 2024 21:30 Locutos wrote:
If any ex GSL champion, with the exception of Rain, had had Maru's continuing success, or Stat's stability, or Clem's talent... each of them would have continued playing the game.
The lack of numbers impacts competitivness? It does, but more on the A tier list then in the top Code S champion caliber i think.
The ones that remained are the ones that would have kept winning even if those who left had stayed. Simply cus : they left cus they didnt see a winnable future. I see where you're coming from but I think military skews with that a bit as it seems to be extremely difficult to get back to your old level after a 2 years break and some players couldn't quite do it despite imo normally having the talent/ability to keep playing at the top if they weren't forced to take a break. Not to mention the 2 years of results you miss out on by virtue of being in the military Edit: for the reference https://www.iltalehti.fi/muutlajit/a/43c6904b-5b66-4567-a4ab-eaca8f327318 (in Finnish) Interview, July 6th 2024. Synopsis: - Doesn't particularly like being in the army as being properly professional SC2-player during the service is difficult to do - Have likely lost tens of thousands of potential winnings money because of it - Hopes for minimum 165d service time: first months of the service were the hardest - Could've been able to participate to more tournaments he did, but choose not to by himself: Main aim is to the World Championship tournament - Considers his Dallas premier performance being 'rusty' due the restrictions and limitiations set by the military service - Thinks army is overall negative thing to his career - Is not particularly concerned for his relatively low training time - In good physical shape. Cooper's test: 2450m - the eldest in his company, and only millionaire - Applauds the Sports school and it's activities; recommends it for other E-Sports gamers Seems to me that everything is going fine there. Photo courtesy: Iltalehti/Mikko Huisko Independent of the GOAT stuff, thanks for linking this article! Was wondering how military was going for Serral. Independent of the GOAT stuff, there are search results for 'Joona Sotala' from 3 biggest Finnish news sources: YLE (Finnish Public Broadcasting Corporation) https://haku.yle.fi/?page=1&query=joona serral sotala&type=articleHELSINGIN SANOMAT (Biggest News paper) https://www.hs.fi/haku/?query=joona sotala&category=kaikki&period=whenever&order=newILTA-SANOMAT (Tabloid) https://www.is.fi/haku/?query=joona serral sotala&category=kaikki&period=whenever&order=newNot much new articles, but for those who want google translate and read about Serral from Finnish public media perspective, these could be interesting. Btw, Serral will complete his military service September 26th 2024 after 165d: https://www.is.fi/digitoday/esports/art-2000010534216.htmlSorry @Premobeats for getting carried away and going off topic here with these. But where else?
oh fantastic, I didn't know it was confirmed that he got approved for the shorter service duration.
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On August 06 2024 13:30 UnLarva wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2024 08:48 Waxangel wrote:On August 06 2024 05:01 UnLarva wrote:On August 05 2024 22:42 Charoisaur wrote:On August 05 2024 21:30 Locutos wrote:
If any ex GSL champion, with the exception of Rain, had had Maru's continuing success, or Stat's stability, or Clem's talent... each of them would have continued playing the game.
The lack of numbers impacts competitivness? It does, but more on the A tier list then in the top Code S champion caliber i think.
The ones that remained are the ones that would have kept winning even if those who left had stayed. Simply cus : they left cus they didnt see a winnable future. I see where you're coming from but I think military skews with that a bit as it seems to be extremely difficult to get back to your old level after a 2 years break and some players couldn't quite do it despite imo normally having the talent/ability to keep playing at the top if they weren't forced to take a break. Not to mention the 2 years of results you miss out on by virtue of being in the military Edit: for the reference https://www.iltalehti.fi/muutlajit/a/43c6904b-5b66-4567-a4ab-eaca8f327318 (in Finnish) Interview, July 6th 2024. Synopsis: - Doesn't particularly like being in the army as being properly professional SC2-player during the service is difficult to do - Have likely lost tens of thousands of potential winnings money because of it - Hopes for minimum 165d service time: first months of the service were the hardest - Could've been able to participate to more tournaments he did, but choose not to by himself: Main aim is to the World Championship tournament - Considers his Dallas premier performance being 'rusty' due the restrictions and limitiations set by the military service - Thinks army is overall negative thing to his career - Is not particularly concerned for his relatively low training time - In good physical shape. Cooper's test: 2450m - the eldest in his company, and only millionaire - Applauds the Sports school and it's activities; recommends it for other E-Sports gamers Seems to me that everything is going fine there. Photo courtesy: Iltalehti/Mikko Huisko Independent of the GOAT stuff, thanks for linking this article! Was wondering how military was going for Serral. Independent of the GOAT stuff, there are search results for 'Joona Sotala' from 3 biggest Finnish news sources: YLE (Finnish Public Broadcasting Corporation) https://haku.yle.fi/?page=1&query=joona serral sotala&type=articleHELSINGIN SANOMAT (Biggest News paper) https://www.hs.fi/haku/?query=joona sotala&category=kaikki&period=whenever&order=newILTA-SANOMAT (Tabloid) https://www.is.fi/haku/?query=joona serral sotala&category=kaikki&period=whenever&order=newNot much new articles, but for those who want google translate and read about Serral from Finnish public media perspective, these could be interesting. Btw, Serral will complete his military service September 26th 2024 after 165d: https://www.is.fi/digitoday/esports/art-2000010534216.htmlSorry @Premobeats for getting carried away and going off topic here with these. But where else?
Haha, no worries, I was happy to see the articles although some seem to be blocked by a pay wall.
Overall I am finished with analyzing Life's and Mvp's data and am currently working on a system to make the different metrics comparable (50k PP from HoF versus average places, etc). Then I will do the era comparison, which will take a lot longer as the search for players ranks - especially in the earlier years - can be quite time consuming (I plan to include average rank of players as well as a ratio of how much more or less higher ranked players advanced in which era).
Not much was added in this thread to my thoughts about the incorporation of team results, thus I set up the equation the way I laid it out before.
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On July 29 2024 22:59 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2024 22:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 27 2024 19:29 lokol4890 wrote:On July 27 2024 14:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 26 2024 17:46 Charoisaur wrote:On July 26 2024 14:33 Starcloud wrote:On July 25 2024 03:40 lokol4890 wrote:
Quick example: 2019. Serral participates in 6 premier international events: iem, wesg, rog assembly summer, gsl vs the world, hsc, and blizzcon. Lost iem, lost wesg, lost rog, and lost blizzcon. Soo wins iem, dark wins blizzcon. In that year dark also wins super tournament and a gsl. So you have serral with a gsl vs the world and hsc to his name, and dark with a gsl proper, a super tournament, and blizzcon. In what universe did serral dominate 2019?
E: let's try 2020 because why not. Serral wins esl masters summer and winter. Rogue wins iem and a gsl. Dark wins TSL. Reynor wins esl masters fall and douyu cup. I don't know man, I'm expecting a person who supposedly dominates to do more than just trade tournaments with the other zergs.
So here is a list from Serral:s results from 2019: 08.12.19 1st Premier StarCraft II: NationWars 2019 24.11.19 1st Premier HomeStory Cup XX 01.11.19 3rd-4th Premier 2019 WCS Global Finals 08.09.19 1st Premier 2019 WCS Fall 24.08.19 1st Major 2019 WCS Fall: Europe Qualifier 18.08.19 1st Premier 2019 GSL vs the World 18.08.19 2nd Premier 2019 GSL vs. The World: Teams Competition 03.08.19 3rd- th Premier Assembly Summer 2019 14.07.19 2nd Premier 2019 WCS Summer 30.06.19 1st Major HomeStory Cup XIX 22.06.19 1st Major 2019 WCS Summer: Europe Qualifier 19.05.19 1st Premier 2019 WCS Spring 04.05.19 1st Major 2019 WCS Spring: Europe Qualifier 07.04.19 2nd Premier 2019 WCS Winter Europe 17.03.19 2nd Premier World Electronic Sports Games 2018 03.03.19 1st Week. (Basic) EU Ladder Heroes/2019/February Week 4 02.03.19 5th-8th Premier IEM Season XIII - Katowice 24.02.19 1st Week. (Basic) EU Ladder Heroes/2019/February Week 3 So, I dont know about dominating but isnt this almost that ? Who else puts up with that kind of results or even near ? After 2018 there were already speculations about who can beat him after 42 (or something) matches undefeated. 2019 and 2020 were bit more "slump" years for Serral, and still he was favourite to win every single tournament he went to. In this list, he has 11 number one spots, 4 number two spots, 2 places at 3-4th and one whole finish at 5-8th. Quickly calculated his average tournament spot is 1,94sh or something. His tournament winrate was over 60%. Yeah, yeah, they arent same value and all, but you get the point. Yeah, he maybe hasnt been the ultimately best player of every single year, but he has still been the man to beat whole that time. His winrates have been constantly up at 70-80% vs. best of the field. THATS what I call Dominating. Well yeah, I think this really is a bit nitpicking. I think in 2019 Dark was better and 2020-2021 Serral also wasn't THE best player, but I mean - we also say Mvp dominated WoL despite him only really dominating 2011. I think Serral is dominating since 2018 is a pretty fair statement Yeah, and even between MVP's GSL wins during his year of dominance, there was Nestea winning GSLs and MC too. So very fair to say that Serral has been dominating 2018-2024 in a general sense. Not necessarily each and every year but overall. I think Serral's achievements during 2019 are pretty good, but a lot of it feels inflated by qualifiers into the next stage of the tournament, etc. I would also say Dark had a more convincing 2019 just cus the stuff he won was more high profile. Alright, if we're just literally changing the meaning of words to fit our points, there is not much I can say. Dictionary defs pretty clearly equate dominate with being the best. No idea how you guys feel this confident reshaping the meaning of that word. This feels so weird. And funnily enough premobeats himself doubled down on dominating as synonym for best, e.g., noting serral's winrates against koreans since 2018. So this is the position you guys are in: you're at the same time arguing dominating somehow doesn't mean being the best in order to defend criticism of premobeats' analysis while premobeats's own words undercut your position. Wild I didn't say that though? I'm not saying dominating doesn't mean the best. It depends what you mean by dominating, we're not reshaping the word. MVP was the best in 2011, yes. He was dominant. But he wasn't dominant on a month to month basis. Thus, it's fair to say Serral was dominant (the best) in the period of 2018 to 2024 because he was overall dominant, even if you think certain years players like Dark, Trap, Maru, or Rogue had a better year. I wrote an article recently that tracked where people finished in the WCS/ESL/etc standings (the ones used to determine the attendees for that years World Championship). I can just port the info over here... These cover every player who finished in the Top 16 of any edition of the described standings (this is only tracking the KR region). These are obviously flawed as a method of divining the "player of the year" because they are missing the world championship from said year, but they are illustrative of a player's results over a longer span of time. ![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/Mizenhauer/WC_Charts.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/Mizenhauer/WC_table.jpg)
Wow this is really fun to look at, thanks. Seeing Solar and sOs at #2 and #3 for most top 16s is nice, they've been around and did well for so many years.
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United States1921 Posts
On August 07 2024 13:56 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2024 22:59 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 29 2024 22:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 27 2024 19:29 lokol4890 wrote:On July 27 2024 14:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 26 2024 17:46 Charoisaur wrote:On July 26 2024 14:33 Starcloud wrote:On July 25 2024 03:40 lokol4890 wrote:
Quick example: 2019. Serral participates in 6 premier international events: iem, wesg, rog assembly summer, gsl vs the world, hsc, and blizzcon. Lost iem, lost wesg, lost rog, and lost blizzcon. Soo wins iem, dark wins blizzcon. In that year dark also wins super tournament and a gsl. So you have serral with a gsl vs the world and hsc to his name, and dark with a gsl proper, a super tournament, and blizzcon. In what universe did serral dominate 2019?
E: let's try 2020 because why not. Serral wins esl masters summer and winter. Rogue wins iem and a gsl. Dark wins TSL. Reynor wins esl masters fall and douyu cup. I don't know man, I'm expecting a person who supposedly dominates to do more than just trade tournaments with the other zergs.
So here is a list from Serral:s results from 2019: 08.12.19 1st Premier StarCraft II: NationWars 2019 24.11.19 1st Premier HomeStory Cup XX 01.11.19 3rd-4th Premier 2019 WCS Global Finals 08.09.19 1st Premier 2019 WCS Fall 24.08.19 1st Major 2019 WCS Fall: Europe Qualifier 18.08.19 1st Premier 2019 GSL vs the World 18.08.19 2nd Premier 2019 GSL vs. The World: Teams Competition 03.08.19 3rd- th Premier Assembly Summer 2019 14.07.19 2nd Premier 2019 WCS Summer 30.06.19 1st Major HomeStory Cup XIX 22.06.19 1st Major 2019 WCS Summer: Europe Qualifier 19.05.19 1st Premier 2019 WCS Spring 04.05.19 1st Major 2019 WCS Spring: Europe Qualifier 07.04.19 2nd Premier 2019 WCS Winter Europe 17.03.19 2nd Premier World Electronic Sports Games 2018 03.03.19 1st Week. (Basic) EU Ladder Heroes/2019/February Week 4 02.03.19 5th-8th Premier IEM Season XIII - Katowice 24.02.19 1st Week. (Basic) EU Ladder Heroes/2019/February Week 3 So, I dont know about dominating but isnt this almost that ? Who else puts up with that kind of results or even near ? After 2018 there were already speculations about who can beat him after 42 (or something) matches undefeated. 2019 and 2020 were bit more "slump" years for Serral, and still he was favourite to win every single tournament he went to. In this list, he has 11 number one spots, 4 number two spots, 2 places at 3-4th and one whole finish at 5-8th. Quickly calculated his average tournament spot is 1,94sh or something. His tournament winrate was over 60%. Yeah, yeah, they arent same value and all, but you get the point. Yeah, he maybe hasnt been the ultimately best player of every single year, but he has still been the man to beat whole that time. His winrates have been constantly up at 70-80% vs. best of the field. THATS what I call Dominating. Well yeah, I think this really is a bit nitpicking. I think in 2019 Dark was better and 2020-2021 Serral also wasn't THE best player, but I mean - we also say Mvp dominated WoL despite him only really dominating 2011. I think Serral is dominating since 2018 is a pretty fair statement Yeah, and even between MVP's GSL wins during his year of dominance, there was Nestea winning GSLs and MC too. So very fair to say that Serral has been dominating 2018-2024 in a general sense. Not necessarily each and every year but overall. I think Serral's achievements during 2019 are pretty good, but a lot of it feels inflated by qualifiers into the next stage of the tournament, etc. I would also say Dark had a more convincing 2019 just cus the stuff he won was more high profile. Alright, if we're just literally changing the meaning of words to fit our points, there is not much I can say. Dictionary defs pretty clearly equate dominate with being the best. No idea how you guys feel this confident reshaping the meaning of that word. This feels so weird. And funnily enough premobeats himself doubled down on dominating as synonym for best, e.g., noting serral's winrates against koreans since 2018. So this is the position you guys are in: you're at the same time arguing dominating somehow doesn't mean being the best in order to defend criticism of premobeats' analysis while premobeats's own words undercut your position. Wild I didn't say that though? I'm not saying dominating doesn't mean the best. It depends what you mean by dominating, we're not reshaping the word. MVP was the best in 2011, yes. He was dominant. But he wasn't dominant on a month to month basis. Thus, it's fair to say Serral was dominant (the best) in the period of 2018 to 2024 because he was overall dominant, even if you think certain years players like Dark, Trap, Maru, or Rogue had a better year. I wrote an article recently that tracked where people finished in the WCS/ESL/etc standings (the ones used to determine the attendees for that years World Championship). I can just port the info over here... These cover every player who finished in the Top 16 of any edition of the described standings (this is only tracking the KR region). These are obviously flawed as a method of divining the "player of the year" because they are missing the world championship from said year, but they are illustrative of a player's results over a longer span of time. Wow this is really fun to look at, thanks. Seeing Solar and sOs at #2 and #3 for most top 16s is nice, they've been around and did well for so many years.
https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/626278-29-interesting-facts-about-the-wcs-esl-standings <--- there are a bunch of random factoids over on the original post such as...
2016 is the only year in which the first and second place finishers played the same race—with Dark finishing first and Solar coming in second.
and
The record for the longest gap of time between two Top 16 finishes is held by Dream and DRG—who failed to appear on the standings for five consecutive years.
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On August 07 2024 20:27 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2024 13:56 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 29 2024 22:59 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 29 2024 22:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 27 2024 19:29 lokol4890 wrote:On July 27 2024 14:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 26 2024 17:46 Charoisaur wrote:On July 26 2024 14:33 Starcloud wrote:On July 25 2024 03:40 lokol4890 wrote:
Quick example: 2019. Serral participates in 6 premier international events: iem, wesg, rog assembly summer, gsl vs the world, hsc, and blizzcon. Lost iem, lost wesg, lost rog, and lost blizzcon. Soo wins iem, dark wins blizzcon. In that year dark also wins super tournament and a gsl. So you have serral with a gsl vs the world and hsc to his name, and dark with a gsl proper, a super tournament, and blizzcon. In what universe did serral dominate 2019?
E: let's try 2020 because why not. Serral wins esl masters summer and winter. Rogue wins iem and a gsl. Dark wins TSL. Reynor wins esl masters fall and douyu cup. I don't know man, I'm expecting a person who supposedly dominates to do more than just trade tournaments with the other zergs.
So here is a list from Serral:s results from 2019: 08.12.19 1st Premier StarCraft II: NationWars 2019 24.11.19 1st Premier HomeStory Cup XX 01.11.19 3rd-4th Premier 2019 WCS Global Finals 08.09.19 1st Premier 2019 WCS Fall 24.08.19 1st Major 2019 WCS Fall: Europe Qualifier 18.08.19 1st Premier 2019 GSL vs the World 18.08.19 2nd Premier 2019 GSL vs. The World: Teams Competition 03.08.19 3rd- th Premier Assembly Summer 2019 14.07.19 2nd Premier 2019 WCS Summer 30.06.19 1st Major HomeStory Cup XIX 22.06.19 1st Major 2019 WCS Summer: Europe Qualifier 19.05.19 1st Premier 2019 WCS Spring 04.05.19 1st Major 2019 WCS Spring: Europe Qualifier 07.04.19 2nd Premier 2019 WCS Winter Europe 17.03.19 2nd Premier World Electronic Sports Games 2018 03.03.19 1st Week. (Basic) EU Ladder Heroes/2019/February Week 4 02.03.19 5th-8th Premier IEM Season XIII - Katowice 24.02.19 1st Week. (Basic) EU Ladder Heroes/2019/February Week 3 So, I dont know about dominating but isnt this almost that ? Who else puts up with that kind of results or even near ? After 2018 there were already speculations about who can beat him after 42 (or something) matches undefeated. 2019 and 2020 were bit more "slump" years for Serral, and still he was favourite to win every single tournament he went to. In this list, he has 11 number one spots, 4 number two spots, 2 places at 3-4th and one whole finish at 5-8th. Quickly calculated his average tournament spot is 1,94sh or something. His tournament winrate was over 60%. Yeah, yeah, they arent same value and all, but you get the point. Yeah, he maybe hasnt been the ultimately best player of every single year, but he has still been the man to beat whole that time. His winrates have been constantly up at 70-80% vs. best of the field. THATS what I call Dominating. Well yeah, I think this really is a bit nitpicking. I think in 2019 Dark was better and 2020-2021 Serral also wasn't THE best player, but I mean - we also say Mvp dominated WoL despite him only really dominating 2011. I think Serral is dominating since 2018 is a pretty fair statement Yeah, and even between MVP's GSL wins during his year of dominance, there was Nestea winning GSLs and MC too. So very fair to say that Serral has been dominating 2018-2024 in a general sense. Not necessarily each and every year but overall. I think Serral's achievements during 2019 are pretty good, but a lot of it feels inflated by qualifiers into the next stage of the tournament, etc. I would also say Dark had a more convincing 2019 just cus the stuff he won was more high profile. Alright, if we're just literally changing the meaning of words to fit our points, there is not much I can say. Dictionary defs pretty clearly equate dominate with being the best. No idea how you guys feel this confident reshaping the meaning of that word. This feels so weird. And funnily enough premobeats himself doubled down on dominating as synonym for best, e.g., noting serral's winrates against koreans since 2018. So this is the position you guys are in: you're at the same time arguing dominating somehow doesn't mean being the best in order to defend criticism of premobeats' analysis while premobeats's own words undercut your position. Wild I didn't say that though? I'm not saying dominating doesn't mean the best. It depends what you mean by dominating, we're not reshaping the word. MVP was the best in 2011, yes. He was dominant. But he wasn't dominant on a month to month basis. Thus, it's fair to say Serral was dominant (the best) in the period of 2018 to 2024 because he was overall dominant, even if you think certain years players like Dark, Trap, Maru, or Rogue had a better year. I wrote an article recently that tracked where people finished in the WCS/ESL/etc standings (the ones used to determine the attendees for that years World Championship). I can just port the info over here... These cover every player who finished in the Top 16 of any edition of the described standings (this is only tracking the KR region). These are obviously flawed as a method of divining the "player of the year" because they are missing the world championship from said year, but they are illustrative of a player's results over a longer span of time. Wow this is really fun to look at, thanks. Seeing Solar and sOs at #2 and #3 for most top 16s is nice, they've been around and did well for so many years. https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/626278-29-interesting-facts-about-the-wcs-esl-standings <--- there are a bunch of random factoids over on the original post such as... 2016 is the only year in which the first and second place finishers played the same race—with Dark finishing first and Solar coming in second. and The record for the longest gap of time between two Top 16 finishes is held by Dream and DRG—who failed to appear on the standings for five consecutive years.
Damn! Korean 'reserves' are deep. Which of course can be seen from two different perspectives:
A) a level of competition is abysmal when these guys can make their cases, or
B) a level of competition isn't that abysmal when there are still guys like these who can
or
C) a level of competition at the Top have not been declined as much as typical narrative usually want tell to us, even if looking to the last few years...
Or what ever.
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I am just here to express support for OP, and lament how stubborn the Korean elitists are. They are literally blind to all the data and hard work OP presented and will keep arguing with flawed logic forever.
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Interesting post, and cool how all the GOAT lists got lots of traction, starting with Miz's post.
Winning in the last few years hasn't been as exciting and competitive for sure. I remember in the old days, new/skilled players are popping up every tournament, and it's super exciting to see how they bring new strategy, new idea, and new energy into the scene. When Jaedong/Flash switched to SC2 in like '12~13, Jaedong was like 22~23 of age, and considered a half-dinosaur at that point.
Today, the top 40 players on Aligulac (page 1 of Aligulac), with age rounded down (i.e., regardless of you are 28.00 or 28.99 y.o. you are 28), the median age is 28, the min is 20 for MaxPax, and the max is 33 for Ryung.
In fact, the peak age in terms of prize money won for all esports is 21. This means that even our youngest top 40 players rn (MaxPax) is about to past that peak in a few months.
Having said that, I'm glad we have a bit more of Starcraft II pro-scene to enjoy. Hope this wouldn't be the last big ride.
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You can't buff ppl from doing military service at unfortunate times. That's like the what ifs of: MVP (body problems) and life (match fix). Military service does weaken the scene though, especially when it's already as thin as it is.
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EPT
