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On March 25 2024 09:31 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2024 08:30 [Phantom] wrote:It seems Life was very naive and foolish, with money. For many its difficult like that. You are young, you are super skilled so you win easy, you get a lot of money, you havent ever really had to "work" for it...or faced hardship to know you should save it... So you go a little crazy. It doesn't happen to everyone, but its not uncommon. On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). How about you share some more of that insider knwoledge?  Although I'm not sure giving 5k to the rest of the players would be considerred sellfish. Although it kind of raises the question of match fixing there... all of the players colluded to split the prize pool there? ISnt that kind of match fixing?, I was thinking for example that a GOAT list would make more sense for sc2 if we treat the game as 4 different games. WOL, HOTS, Legacy part 1 and Legacy part 2. In that case, I'd say the indusputed GOAT of HotS would be Life. So it's kinda funny we all ignore him. But still I don't know how he was behhind the scenes Prize splitting is perfectly fine as long as every player remaining in the event agrees to the split. This is common practice in lots of card games such as Poker and Magic the Gathering.
Of course you cannot say what the winner is supposed to do with the winnings, but agreeing like this beforehand goes against the entire point of the tournament. And just like how match fixing destroys the integrity of the tournament, so does this, though obviously to a smaller extend.
I have a problem with putting all the blame of Kespa's down fall on Life. What Life did was throw game/games in two matches, while he was a minor in Korea (he was 18). It's terrible to throw matches because it damages tournament integrity, as stated, but even could be argued to an extend, because he still won those matches.. So in essence, the problem is that betters got fooled for some games while betting is supposed to be illegal in Korea. This does not mean that he shouldn't be punished, but he's being put as an absolute pariah in this case.
That Life should've somehow known that Kespa had renewed a contract and that the scene would fall after this, is so stupid. And even if Life didn't match fix, the same would've happened, because guess what, other players threw games for money.
SC2 didn't have problems with match fixing before Kespa, so it could also be that Kespa is just a corrupt organization. Mb some guy wanted to get in a lot of money, before the inevitable collapse that was going to happen, we will never know. I don't even know if Kespa was good for sc2, horrendous conditions for the players and an unparalleled strictness. But I admit that I'm just talking out of my arse, because, I honestly don't know anything about it.
Were there investigations into who contacted these players and asked them to match fix?, was there investigation into if perhaps the Prime coach, or manager had a deal in this?
In any case, it's a good discussion to be had, and the worst part of this all was the erasing of history that happened. Casters not being able to mention his name and the removal of videos, give me a break..
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Canada8989 Posts
On March 25 2024 09:31 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2024 08:30 [Phantom] wrote:It seems Life was very naive and foolish, with money. For many its difficult like that. You are young, you are super skilled so you win easy, you get a lot of money, you havent ever really had to "work" for it...or faced hardship to know you should save it... So you go a little crazy. It doesn't happen to everyone, but its not uncommon. On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). How about you share some more of that insider knwoledge? Although I'm not sure giving 5k to the rest of the players would be considerred sellfish. Although it kind of raises the question of match fixing there... all of the players colluded to split the prize pool there? ISnt that kind of match fixing?, I was thinking for example that a GOAT list would make more sense for sc2 if we treat the game as 4 different games. WOL, HOTS, Legacy part 1 and Legacy part 2. In that case, I'd say the indusputed GOAT of HotS would be Life. So it's kinda funny we all ignore him. But still I don't know how he was behhind the scenes Au Prize splitting is perfectly fine as long as every player remaining in the event agrees to the split. This is common practice in lots of card games such as Poker and Magic the Gathering.
Personally, I find it incredibly disrespectful to the viewers and organisers. You basicly trick everyone into thinking the matches are more important than they really are and it encourage players to try less. It may not be straight matchfixing, but it's right on the line.
I have no problems with players going to the organisers and advocate for a more evenly split prize pool, but under the table deals are a big no for me. I applaud herO for turning it down at Kato, even though he may regret it for the rest of his life.
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United States1870 Posts
On March 26 2024 20:18 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2024 09:31 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 25 2024 08:30 [Phantom] wrote:It seems Life was very naive and foolish, with money. For many its difficult like that. You are young, you are super skilled so you win easy, you get a lot of money, you havent ever really had to "work" for it...or faced hardship to know you should save it... So you go a little crazy. It doesn't happen to everyone, but its not uncommon. On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). How about you share some more of that insider knwoledge? Although I'm not sure giving 5k to the rest of the players would be considerred sellfish. Although it kind of raises the question of match fixing there... all of the players colluded to split the prize pool there? ISnt that kind of match fixing?, I was thinking for example that a GOAT list would make more sense for sc2 if we treat the game as 4 different games. WOL, HOTS, Legacy part 1 and Legacy part 2. In that case, I'd say the indusputed GOAT of HotS would be Life. So it's kinda funny we all ignore him. But still I don't know how he was behhind the scenes Prize splitting is perfectly fine as long as every player remaining in the event agrees to the split. This is common practice in lots of card games such as Poker and Magic the Gathering. Of course you cannot say what the winner is supposed to do with the winnings, but agreeing like this beforehand goes against the entire point of the tournament. And just like how match fixing destroys the integrity of the tournament, so does this, though obviously to a smaller extend. I have a problem with putting all the blame of Kespa's down fall on Life. What Life did was throw game/games in two matches, while he was a minor in Korea (he was 18). It's terrible to throw matches because it damages tournament integrity, as stated, but even could be argued to an extend, because he still won those matches.. So in essence, the problem is that betters got fooled for some games while betting is supposed to be illegal in Korea. This does not mean that he shouldn't be punished, but he's being put as an absolute pariah in this case. That Life should've somehow known that Kespa had renewed a contract and that the scene would fall after this, is so stupid. And even if Life didn't match fix, the same would've happened, because guess what, other players threw games for money. SC2 didn't have problems with match fixing before Kespa, so it could also be that Kespa is just a corrupt organization. Mb some guy wanted to get in a lot of money, before the inevitable collapse that was going to happen, we will never know. I don't even know if Kespa was good for sc2, horrendous conditions for the players and an unparalleled strictness. But I admit that I'm just talking out of my arse, because, I honestly don't know anything about it. Were there investigations into who contacted these players and asked them to match fix?, was there investigation into if perhaps the Prime coach, or manager had a deal in this? In any case, it's a good discussion to be had, and the worst part of this all was the erasing of history that happened. Casters not being able to mention his name and the removal of videos, give me a break..
If you really think life only fixed two games you are beyond naive. Gambling addicts don't have the self control to say "I got paid more for fixing one game than winning gsl, I'll just stop there."
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United States1870 Posts
On March 26 2024 20:33 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2024 09:31 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 25 2024 08:30 [Phantom] wrote:It seems Life was very naive and foolish, with money. For many its difficult like that. You are young, you are super skilled so you win easy, you get a lot of money, you havent ever really had to "work" for it...or faced hardship to know you should save it... So you go a little crazy. It doesn't happen to everyone, but its not uncommon. On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). How about you share some more of that insider knwoledge? Although I'm not sure giving 5k to the rest of the players would be considerred sellfish. Although it kind of raises the question of match fixing there... all of the players colluded to split the prize pool there? ISnt that kind of match fixing?, I was thinking for example that a GOAT list would make more sense for sc2 if we treat the game as 4 different games. WOL, HOTS, Legacy part 1 and Legacy part 2. In that case, I'd say the indusputed GOAT of HotS would be Life. So it's kinda funny we all ignore him. But still I don't know how he was behhind the scenes Au Prize splitting is perfectly fine as long as every player remaining in the event agrees to the split. This is common practice in lots of card games such as Poker and Magic the Gathering. Personally, I find it incredibly disrespectful to the viewers and organisers. You basicly trick everyone into thinking the matches are more important than they really are and it encourage players to try less. It may not be straight matchfixing, but it's right on the line. I have no problems with players going to the organisers and advocate for a more evenly split prize pool, but under the table deals are a big no for me. I applaud herO for turning it down at Kato, even though he may regret it for the rest of his life.
Every game/ community has different thoughts on this. I've played magic since 1999 and when you factor in the cost of a deck plus travel and entry, you could get top 8 of a 5000 person tournament and lose money. It's good to have a mechanism to fix the payout disparity if everyone remaining agrees.
Also these deals aren't under the table. For example, on online poker clients there is often a button to initiate a vote for a prize spli at the final table. If every left agrees the client does the split for you based on chip stacks, blinds etc
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United States1870 Posts
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Northern Ireland25268 Posts
On March 26 2024 20:33 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2024 09:31 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 25 2024 08:30 [Phantom] wrote:It seems Life was very naive and foolish, with money. For many its difficult like that. You are young, you are super skilled so you win easy, you get a lot of money, you havent ever really had to "work" for it...or faced hardship to know you should save it... So you go a little crazy. It doesn't happen to everyone, but its not uncommon. On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). How about you share some more of that insider knwoledge? Although I'm not sure giving 5k to the rest of the players would be considerred sellfish. Although it kind of raises the question of match fixing there... all of the players colluded to split the prize pool there? ISnt that kind of match fixing?, I was thinking for example that a GOAT list would make more sense for sc2 if we treat the game as 4 different games. WOL, HOTS, Legacy part 1 and Legacy part 2. In that case, I'd say the indusputed GOAT of HotS would be Life. So it's kinda funny we all ignore him. But still I don't know how he was behhind the scenes Au Prize splitting is perfectly fine as long as every player remaining in the event agrees to the split. This is common practice in lots of card games such as Poker and Magic the Gathering. Personally, I find it incredibly disrespectful to the viewers and organisers. You basicly trick everyone into thinking the matches are more important than they really are and it encourage players to try less. It may not be straight matchfixing, but it's right on the line. I have no problems with players going to the organisers and advocate for a more evenly split prize pool, but under the table deals are a big no for me. I applaud herO for turning it down at Kato, even though he may regret it for the rest of his life.
The glory isn’t equal, and that is a huge factor in both player motivation as well as spectator investment.
I must say I’m actually not sure how I feel about this one, I think there’s potent arguments on both sides of the aisle.
I think I’m far more OK with an arrangement to change a prize pool split than I am with just straight splitting the pot between 8/4/2 or whoever is involved with the deal. ‘Look this Katowice winner-takes-all’ is bullshit, why don’t we agree to our own split?’ is fine by me in a way just splitting a pot equally isn’t.
Arbitrary I know I’m also more comfortable of any deals the further out they are from a big tournament that ones made halfway through a weekend or what have you.
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Northern Ireland25268 Posts
On March 26 2024 20:18 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2024 09:31 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 25 2024 08:30 [Phantom] wrote:It seems Life was very naive and foolish, with money. For many its difficult like that. You are young, you are super skilled so you win easy, you get a lot of money, you havent ever really had to "work" for it...or faced hardship to know you should save it... So you go a little crazy. It doesn't happen to everyone, but its not uncommon. On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). How about you share some more of that insider knwoledge? Although I'm not sure giving 5k to the rest of the players would be considerred sellfish. Although it kind of raises the question of match fixing there... all of the players colluded to split the prize pool there? ISnt that kind of match fixing?, I was thinking for example that a GOAT list would make more sense for sc2 if we treat the game as 4 different games. WOL, HOTS, Legacy part 1 and Legacy part 2. In that case, I'd say the indusputed GOAT of HotS would be Life. So it's kinda funny we all ignore him. But still I don't know how he was behhind the scenes Prize splitting is perfectly fine as long as every player remaining in the event agrees to the split. This is common practice in lots of card games such as Poker and Magic the Gathering. Of course you cannot say what the winner is supposed to do with the winnings, but agreeing like this beforehand goes against the entire point of the tournament. And just like how match fixing destroys the integrity of the tournament, so does this, though obviously to a smaller extend. I have a problem with putting all the blame of Kespa's down fall on Life. What Life did was throw game/games in two matches, while he was a minor in Korea (he was 18). It's terrible to throw matches because it damages tournament integrity, as stated, but even could be argued to an extend, because he still won those matches.. So in essence, the problem is that betters got fooled for some games while betting is supposed to be illegal in Korea. This does not mean that he shouldn't be punished, but he's being put as an absolute pariah in this case. That Life should've somehow known that Kespa had renewed a contract and that the scene would fall after this, is so stupid. And even if Life didn't match fix, the same would've happened, because guess what, other players threw games for money. SC2 didn't have problems with match fixing before Kespa, so it could also be that Kespa is just a corrupt organization. Mb some guy wanted to get in a lot of money, before the inevitable collapse that was going to happen, we will never know. I don't even know if Kespa was good for sc2, horrendous conditions for the players and an unparalleled strictness. But I admit that I'm just talking out of my arse, because, I honestly don't know anything about it. Were there investigations into who contacted these players and asked them to match fix?, was there investigation into if perhaps the Prime coach, or manager had a deal in this? In any case, it's a good discussion to be had, and the worst part of this all was the erasing of history that happened. Casters not being able to mention his name and the removal of videos, give me a break..
It’s a great punishment IMO, can’t really think of a better one really. It’s very self-contained to the area in which you did damage. His name is mud in said area, but he’s free to go live his life and do almost anything else so long as it isn’t in StarCraft. I assume and hope so anyway, there are plenty of countries where a criminal record of any kind really holds you back in life existence. Not something I would want for the lad either, he was young and made a stupid fucking decision but no matter how much I love StarCraft I still want him to be able to move on and not have his life time on this Earth ruined in perpetuity.
As (I believe Miz, perhaps another poster) already stated, Kespa literally did educational sessions on getting involved with betting syndicates, I assume based on the damage Savior + others did with their particular match-fixing scandal.
He may not have been privy to information like a Kespa renewal being imminent sure, but ‘hey yeah match fixing fucked things up before so don’t do it’ is a pretty simple lesson to take on board for basically anyone.
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Canada8989 Posts
On March 26 2024 20:54 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2024 20:33 Nakajin wrote:On March 25 2024 09:31 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 25 2024 08:30 [Phantom] wrote:It seems Life was very naive and foolish, with money. For many its difficult like that. You are young, you are super skilled so you win easy, you get a lot of money, you havent ever really had to "work" for it...or faced hardship to know you should save it... So you go a little crazy. It doesn't happen to everyone, but its not uncommon. On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). How about you share some more of that insider knwoledge? Although I'm not sure giving 5k to the rest of the players would be considerred sellfish. Although it kind of raises the question of match fixing there... all of the players colluded to split the prize pool there? ISnt that kind of match fixing?, I was thinking for example that a GOAT list would make more sense for sc2 if we treat the game as 4 different games. WOL, HOTS, Legacy part 1 and Legacy part 2. In that case, I'd say the indusputed GOAT of HotS would be Life. So it's kinda funny we all ignore him. But still I don't know how he was behhind the scenes Au Prize splitting is perfectly fine as long as every player remaining in the event agrees to the split. This is common practice in lots of card games such as Poker and Magic the Gathering. Personally, I find it incredibly disrespectful to the viewers and organisers. You basically trick everyone into thinking the matches are more important than they really are and it encourages players to try less. It may not be straight matchfixing, but it's right on the line. I have no problems with players going to the organizers and advocating for a more evenly split prize pool, but under-the-table deals are a big no for me. I applaud herO for turning it down at Kato, even though he may regret it for the rest of his life. Every game/ community has different thoughts on this. I've played magic since 1999 and when you factor in the cost of a deck plus travel and entry, you could get top 8 of a 5000 person tournament and lose money. It's good to have a mechanism to fix the payout disparity if everyone remaining agrees. Also these deals aren't under the table. For example, on online poker clients there is often a button to initiate a vote for a prize spli at the final table. If every left agrees the client does the split for you based on chip stacks, blinds etc
I don't know enough about magic, but poker is very different since you're playing with your own money, I have no problem with that. With SC2 (or esport in general) players get paid by organizers to produce entertainment, the prize pool is ''just'' a way to attract players and spectators.
I wouldn't even be against players coming out saying they will split the prize poll in X or Y way, although I would have a hard time with a pure 50-50 split tbh.
But if it was done in SC2, it was never mediatized. I would feel very much cheated as a spectator if I were to learn that for example, the last Katowice prize pool was evened out behind the scenes.
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On March 25 2024 15:46 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2024 14:51 stilt wrote:On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). This kind of judgement about a 18 yo addict has nothing to do on tl.net, especially from a "writer" Think its very fair when the said 18yo led to entire korean pro scene collapsing and hundreds of people losing their jobs overnight
Cry me a river, that was 8 years ago, move on.
It's ok to worship to death a bunch of young koreans but gathering every years on threads to insult a 17-8yo for a matchfixing when you're around 30-40s is borderline creepy.
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United States1870 Posts
On March 27 2024 01:57 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2024 20:54 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 26 2024 20:33 Nakajin wrote:On March 25 2024 09:31 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 25 2024 08:30 [Phantom] wrote:It seems Life was very naive and foolish, with money. For many its difficult like that. You are young, you are super skilled so you win easy, you get a lot of money, you havent ever really had to "work" for it...or faced hardship to know you should save it... So you go a little crazy. It doesn't happen to everyone, but its not uncommon. On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). How about you share some more of that insider knwoledge? Although I'm not sure giving 5k to the rest of the players would be considerred sellfish. Although it kind of raises the question of match fixing there... all of the players colluded to split the prize pool there? ISnt that kind of match fixing?, I was thinking for example that a GOAT list would make more sense for sc2 if we treat the game as 4 different games. WOL, HOTS, Legacy part 1 and Legacy part 2. In that case, I'd say the indusputed GOAT of HotS would be Life. So it's kinda funny we all ignore him. But still I don't know how he was behhind the scenes Au Prize splitting is perfectly fine as long as every player remaining in the event agrees to the split. This is common practice in lots of card games such as Poker and Magic the Gathering. Personally, I find it incredibly disrespectful to the viewers and organisers. You basically trick everyone into thinking the matches are more important than they really are and it encourages players to try less. It may not be straight matchfixing, but it's right on the line. I have no problems with players going to the organizers and advocating for a more evenly split prize pool, but under-the-table deals are a big no for me. I applaud herO for turning it down at Kato, even though he may regret it for the rest of his life. Every game/ community has different thoughts on this. I've played magic since 1999 and when you factor in the cost of a deck plus travel and entry, you could get top 8 of a 5000 person tournament and lose money. It's good to have a mechanism to fix the payout disparity if everyone remaining agrees. Also these deals aren't under the table. For example, on online poker clients there is often a button to initiate a vote for a prize spli at the final table. If every left agrees the client does the split for you based on chip stacks, blinds etc I don't know enough about magic, but poker is very different since you're playing with your own money, I have no problem with that. With SC2 (or esport in general) players get paid by organizers to produce entertainment, the prize pool is ''just'' a way to attract players and spectators. I wouldn't even be against players coming out saying they will split the prize poll in X or Y way, although I would have a hard time with a pure 50-50 split tbh. But if it was done in SC2, it was never mediatized. I would feel very much cheated as a spectator if I were to learn that for example, the last Katowice prize pool was evened out behind the scenes.
You have to pay entry to play in 99% of Magic tournaments. A very small number (less than 50 a year) are invite only but, even then, it's your responsibility to provide your cards and get yourself to said event.
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On March 26 2024 17:05 WombaT wrote:
Make no mistake a big, confirmed match-making scandal would be absolutely devastating to even the English Premier League, or the Champion’s League. Doubtful that it would completely destroy them but there’d be pretty dire consequences. Clubs would very likely go insolvent in the aftermath as many are already flying close to the sun as it is financially and any level of broadcaster/sponsorship pullback would cripple them basically irreparably.
Pete Rose's gambling didn't crash MLB.
the entire NBA is on HGH. all of MLB is on a cocktail of PEDs that allows pitchers to throw 97+ MPH. We have 240 lb shortstops at 5% body fat. No one cares. The leagues are easily entertaining enough to overcome this stuff.
The average life span of an NFL lineman is 55.2 years due to all the PEDs they consume to maintain their crazy high weight. No one cares. A drafted NFL lineman that doesn't make the team lives to 57.5 years old. No one cares. The NFL is a giant marketing machine.
And, as I've said before, in Brood War the living conditions were horrible. No one cared. The scene was a lot of fun to watch.
EDIT: 1 of the best live event promoters in the history of live events is DOn King.. 2 time murderer. Still to this day Lennox Lewis v. Mike Tyson is the most exciting live event of my life time... and many people who lived where Lennox Lewis grew up feel the same way. Don King knows how to put on a show.
If a 17 year old can crash an entire scene. the scene was ready to die.
Now, there are things that can kill a competitive live event scene. The confluence of events around Pro Boxing from 1975 to 1985 killed it. That was far far more than a bunch of fixed fights.
And as of today... the issue shown below will not cause the NBA to crash.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39808900/nba-eyes-raptors-jontay-porter-betting-issues
Its accepted that many playoff runs during Kobe Bryant's prime were heavily influenced by David Stern. Some go as far as to say they were outright fixed. IMO the Kings//Lakers 7 game series, game 6, was fixed for the Lakers to win. No one cares. I don't care. WHen the Raptors went on the 2019 championship run I and many of my friends spent $4,000+ each on tickets; millions turned out for the parade. It was too much fun to worry about a few fixed games during Kobe's prime. oh and, Kobe prolly raped that hotel employee. No one cares.
If the audience is having an absolute blast it overcomes all this BS. SC2 just ain't that much fun especially in a live event format.
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On March 27 2024 02:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2024 17:05 WombaT wrote:
Make no mistake a big, confirmed match-making scandal would be absolutely devastating to even the English Premier League, or the Champion’s League. Doubtful that it would completely destroy them but there’d be pretty dire consequences. Clubs would very likely go insolvent in the aftermath as many are already flying close to the sun as it is financially and any level of broadcaster/sponsorship pullback would cripple them basically irreparably.
Pete Rose's gambling didn't crash MLB. the entire NBA is on HGH. all of MLB is on a cocktail of PEDs that allows pitchers to throw 97+ MPH. We have 240 lb shortstops at 5% body fat. No one cares. The leagues are easily entertaining enough to overcome this stuff. The average life span of an NFL lineman is 55.2 years due to all the PEDs they consume to maintain their crazy high weight. No one cares. A drafted NFL lineman that doesn't make the team lives to 57.5 years old. No one cares. The NFL is a giant marketing machine. And, as I've said before, in Brood War the living conditions were horrible. No one cared. The scene was a lot of fun to watch. EDIT: 1 of the best live event promoters in the history of live events is DOn King.. 2 time murderer. Still to this day Lennox Lewis v. Mike Tyson is the most exciting live event of my life time... and many people who lived where Lennox Lewis grew up feel the same way. Don King knows how to put on a show. If a 17 year old can crash an entire scene. the scene was ready to die. Now, there are things that can kill a competitive live event scene. The confluence of events around Pro Boxing from 1975 to 1985 killed it. That was far far more than a bunch of fixed fights. And as of today... the issue shown below will not cause the NBA to crash. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39808900/nba-eyes-raptors-jontay-porter-betting-issuesIts accepted that many playoff runs during Kobe Bryant's prime were heavily influenced by David Stern. Some go as far as to say they were outright fixed. IMO the Kings//Lakers 7 game series, game 6, was fixed for the Lakers to win. No one cares. I don't care. WHen the Raptors went on the 2019 championship run I and many of my friends spent $4,000+ each on tickets; millions turned out for the parade. It was too much fun to worry about a few fixed games during Kobe's prime.
You are comparing established sports to esports like SC trying to gain competitive legitimacy. It's not equal.
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On March 27 2024 03:08 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2024 02:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On March 26 2024 17:05 WombaT wrote:
Make no mistake a big, confirmed match-making scandal would be absolutely devastating to even the English Premier League, or the Champion’s League. Doubtful that it would completely destroy them but there’d be pretty dire consequences. Clubs would very likely go insolvent in the aftermath as many are already flying close to the sun as it is financially and any level of broadcaster/sponsorship pullback would cripple them basically irreparably.
Pete Rose's gambling didn't crash MLB. the entire NBA is on HGH. all of MLB is on a cocktail of PEDs that allows pitchers to throw 97+ MPH. We have 240 lb shortstops at 5% body fat. No one cares. The leagues are easily entertaining enough to overcome this stuff. The average life span of an NFL lineman is 55.2 years due to all the PEDs they consume to maintain their crazy high weight. No one cares. A drafted NFL lineman that doesn't make the team lives to 57.5 years old. No one cares. The NFL is a giant marketing machine. And, as I've said before, in Brood War the living conditions were horrible. No one cared. The scene was a lot of fun to watch. EDIT: 1 of the best live event promoters in the history of live events is DOn King.. 2 time murderer. Still to this day Lennox Lewis v. Mike Tyson is the most exciting live event of my life time... and many people who lived where Lennox Lewis grew up feel the same way. Don King knows how to put on a show. If a 17 year old can crash an entire scene. the scene was ready to die. Now, there are things that can kill a competitive live event scene. The confluence of events around Pro Boxing from 1975 to 1985 killed it. That was far far more than a bunch of fixed fights. And as of today... the issue shown below will not cause the NBA to crash. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39808900/nba-eyes-raptors-jontay-porter-betting-issuesIts accepted that many playoff runs during Kobe Bryant's prime were heavily influenced by David Stern. Some go as far as to say they were outright fixed. IMO the Kings//Lakers 7 game series, game 6, was fixed for the Lakers to win. No one cares. I don't care. WHen the Raptors went on the 2019 championship run I and many of my friends spent $4,000+ each on tickets; millions turned out for the parade. It was too much fun to worry about a few fixed games during Kobe's prime. You are comparing established sports to esports like SC trying to gain competitive legitimacy. It's not equal.
Brood War had really bad living conditions for its participants. The scene rolled on because the entertainment value was there.
Brood WAr live events were far more fun than SC2 live events. Thus, the scene could withstand negativity.
I play SC2 off and on and have done so for 14 years. I hardly play Brood War at all. I had much more fun at Brood War Live Events than SC2 live events. For me, its more fun hitting the "Find Match" button in SC2 than in Brood WAr. However, the competitive scenes.. its no contest.. its Brood War all the way. to the Korean promoters of Brood War ... I must say... they know how to put on a show.
None of this can be hung on a single 17 year old. The numerous adults in charge of the SC2 competitive scene and live event promotion failed. The numerous adults in charge of the Brood War competitive scene made profits and succeeded.
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Northern Ireland25268 Posts
On March 27 2024 03:08 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2024 02:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On March 26 2024 17:05 WombaT wrote:
Make no mistake a big, confirmed match-making scandal would be absolutely devastating to even the English Premier League, or the Champion’s League. Doubtful that it would completely destroy them but there’d be pretty dire consequences. Clubs would very likely go insolvent in the aftermath as many are already flying close to the sun as it is financially and any level of broadcaster/sponsorship pullback would cripple them basically irreparably.
Pete Rose's gambling didn't crash MLB. the entire NBA is on HGH. all of MLB is on a cocktail of PEDs that allows pitchers to throw 97+ MPH. We have 240 lb shortstops at 5% body fat. No one cares. The leagues are easily entertaining enough to overcome this stuff. The average life span of an NFL lineman is 55.2 years due to all the PEDs they consume to maintain their crazy high weight. No one cares. A drafted NFL lineman that doesn't make the team lives to 57.5 years old. No one cares. The NFL is a giant marketing machine. And, as I've said before, in Brood War the living conditions were horrible. No one cared. The scene was a lot of fun to watch. EDIT: 1 of the best live event promoters in the history of live events is DOn King.. 2 time murderer. Still to this day Lennox Lewis v. Mike Tyson is the most exciting live event of my life time... and many people who lived where Lennox Lewis grew up feel the same way. Don King knows how to put on a show. If a 17 year old can crash an entire scene. the scene was ready to die. Now, there are things that can kill a competitive live event scene. The confluence of events around Pro Boxing from 1975 to 1985 killed it. That was far far more than a bunch of fixed fights. And as of today... the issue shown below will not cause the NBA to crash. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39808900/nba-eyes-raptors-jontay-porter-betting-issuesIts accepted that many playoff runs during Kobe Bryant's prime were heavily influenced by David Stern. Some go as far as to say they were outright fixed. IMO the Kings//Lakers 7 game series, game 6, was fixed for the Lakers to win. No one cares. I don't care. WHen the Raptors went on the 2019 championship run I and many of my friends spent $4,000+ each on tickets; millions turned out for the parade. It was too much fun to worry about a few fixed games during Kobe's prime. You are comparing established sports to esports like SC trying to gain competitive legitimacy. It's not equal.
I mean it is Jimmy who will squeeze his personal opinion and worldview to fit any scenario regardless of actual facts.
Exhibit A - SC2 wasn’t entertaining enough, despite Kespa and the associated sponsors having drafted a renewal of said same scene
Also claiming established sports all run sweet despite numerous match fixing scandals being commonplace and folks shrugging it off, despite that demonstrably not being the case.
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On March 27 2024 03:08 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2024 02:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On March 26 2024 17:05 WombaT wrote:
Make no mistake a big, confirmed match-making scandal would be absolutely devastating to even the English Premier League, or the Champion’s League. Doubtful that it would completely destroy them but there’d be pretty dire consequences. Clubs would very likely go insolvent in the aftermath as many are already flying close to the sun as it is financially and any level of broadcaster/sponsorship pullback would cripple them basically irreparably.
Pete Rose's gambling didn't crash MLB. the entire NBA is on HGH. all of MLB is on a cocktail of PEDs that allows pitchers to throw 97+ MPH. We have 240 lb shortstops at 5% body fat. No one cares. The leagues are easily entertaining enough to overcome this stuff. The average life span of an NFL lineman is 55.2 years due to all the PEDs they consume to maintain their crazy high weight. No one cares. A drafted NFL lineman that doesn't make the team lives to 57.5 years old. No one cares. The NFL is a giant marketing machine. And, as I've said before, in Brood War the living conditions were horrible. No one cared. The scene was a lot of fun to watch. EDIT: 1 of the best live event promoters in the history of live events is DOn King.. 2 time murderer. Still to this day Lennox Lewis v. Mike Tyson is the most exciting live event of my life time... and many people who lived where Lennox Lewis grew up feel the same way. Don King knows how to put on a show. If a 17 year old can crash an entire scene. the scene was ready to die. Now, there are things that can kill a competitive live event scene. The confluence of events around Pro Boxing from 1975 to 1985 killed it. That was far far more than a bunch of fixed fights. And as of today... the issue shown below will not cause the NBA to crash. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39808900/nba-eyes-raptors-jontay-porter-betting-issuesIts accepted that many playoff runs during Kobe Bryant's prime were heavily influenced by David Stern. Some go as far as to say they were outright fixed. IMO the Kings//Lakers 7 game series, game 6, was fixed for the Lakers to win. No one cares. I don't care. WHen the Raptors went on the 2019 championship run I and many of my friends spent $4,000+ each on tickets; millions turned out for the parade. It was too much fun to worry about a few fixed games during Kobe's prime. You are comparing established sports to esports like SC trying to gain competitive legitimacy. It's not equal.
Dude is stuck on that NBA-argument for...well, forever basically. Bringing in the MLB is a nice touch though. You will however never be able to get it through his head that there *might* be a difference. Also don't bring up the collaps of professional cycling through doping, because he will straight up ignore it and counter with BUT THE NBA!!!!1
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On March 27 2024 01:57 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2024 20:54 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 26 2024 20:33 Nakajin wrote:On March 25 2024 09:31 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 25 2024 08:30 [Phantom] wrote:It seems Life was very naive and foolish, with money. For many its difficult like that. You are young, you are super skilled so you win easy, you get a lot of money, you havent ever really had to "work" for it...or faced hardship to know you should save it... So you go a little crazy. It doesn't happen to everyone, but its not uncommon. On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). How about you share some more of that insider knwoledge? Although I'm not sure giving 5k to the rest of the players would be considerred sellfish. Although it kind of raises the question of match fixing there... all of the players colluded to split the prize pool there? ISnt that kind of match fixing?, I was thinking for example that a GOAT list would make more sense for sc2 if we treat the game as 4 different games. WOL, HOTS, Legacy part 1 and Legacy part 2. In that case, I'd say the indusputed GOAT of HotS would be Life. So it's kinda funny we all ignore him. But still I don't know how he was behhind the scenes Au Prize splitting is perfectly fine as long as every player remaining in the event agrees to the split. This is common practice in lots of card games such as Poker and Magic the Gathering. Personally, I find it incredibly disrespectful to the viewers and organisers. You basically trick everyone into thinking the matches are more important than they really are and it encourages players to try less. It may not be straight matchfixing, but it's right on the line. I have no problems with players going to the organizers and advocating for a more evenly split prize pool, but under-the-table deals are a big no for me. I applaud herO for turning it down at Kato, even though he may regret it for the rest of his life. Every game/ community has different thoughts on this. I've played magic since 1999 and when you factor in the cost of a deck plus travel and entry, you could get top 8 of a 5000 person tournament and lose money. It's good to have a mechanism to fix the payout disparity if everyone remaining agrees. Also these deals aren't under the table. For example, on online poker clients there is often a button to initiate a vote for a prize spli at the final table. If every left agrees the client does the split for you based on chip stacks, blinds etc I don't know enough about magic, but poker is very different since you're playing with your own money, I have no problem with that. With SC2 (or esport in general) players get paid by organizers to produce entertainment, the prize pool is ''just'' a way to attract players and spectators. I wouldn't even be against players coming out saying they will split the prize poll in X or Y way, although I would have a hard time with a pure 50-50 split tbh. But if it was done in SC2, it was never mediatized. I would feel very much cheated as a spectator if I were to learn that for example, the last Katowice prize pool was evened out behind the scenes.
I think the "behind the scene"-deal is the sketchy part, not that it is done in general. For example, the last offfline NGL One Finals in Warcraft 3 had a prizepool split between the three teams - because all three teams would lose money on the trip anyway and it was confirmed to be the last finals of this league. One team (mTw, who ironically even won the whole thing) actually already announced to disband after the finals. It really was more of a last-hurrah/party than an actual tournament, so no one argued against the split - and of course, it was publicly known beforehand
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On March 27 2024 05:30 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2024 01:57 Nakajin wrote:On March 26 2024 20:54 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 26 2024 20:33 Nakajin wrote:On March 25 2024 09:31 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 25 2024 08:30 [Phantom] wrote:It seems Life was very naive and foolish, with money. For many its difficult like that. You are young, you are super skilled so you win easy, you get a lot of money, you havent ever really had to "work" for it...or faced hardship to know you should save it... So you go a little crazy. It doesn't happen to everyone, but its not uncommon. On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). How about you share some more of that insider knwoledge? Although I'm not sure giving 5k to the rest of the players would be considerred sellfish. Although it kind of raises the question of match fixing there... all of the players colluded to split the prize pool there? ISnt that kind of match fixing?, I was thinking for example that a GOAT list would make more sense for sc2 if we treat the game as 4 different games. WOL, HOTS, Legacy part 1 and Legacy part 2. In that case, I'd say the indusputed GOAT of HotS would be Life. So it's kinda funny we all ignore him. But still I don't know how he was behhind the scenes Au Prize splitting is perfectly fine as long as every player remaining in the event agrees to the split. This is common practice in lots of card games such as Poker and Magic the Gathering. Personally, I find it incredibly disrespectful to the viewers and organisers. You basically trick everyone into thinking the matches are more important than they really are and it encourages players to try less. It may not be straight matchfixing, but it's right on the line. I have no problems with players going to the organizers and advocating for a more evenly split prize pool, but under-the-table deals are a big no for me. I applaud herO for turning it down at Kato, even though he may regret it for the rest of his life. Every game/ community has different thoughts on this. I've played magic since 1999 and when you factor in the cost of a deck plus travel and entry, you could get top 8 of a 5000 person tournament and lose money. It's good to have a mechanism to fix the payout disparity if everyone remaining agrees. Also these deals aren't under the table. For example, on online poker clients there is often a button to initiate a vote for a prize spli at the final table. If every left agrees the client does the split for you based on chip stacks, blinds etc I don't know enough about magic, but poker is very different since you're playing with your own money, I have no problem with that. With SC2 (or esport in general) players get paid by organizers to produce entertainment, the prize pool is ''just'' a way to attract players and spectators. I wouldn't even be against players coming out saying they will split the prize poll in X or Y way, although I would have a hard time with a pure 50-50 split tbh. But if it was done in SC2, it was never mediatized. I would feel very much cheated as a spectator if I were to learn that for example, the last Katowice prize pool was evened out behind the scenes. I think the "behind the scene"-deal is the sketchy part, not that it is done in general. For example, the last offfline NGL One Finals in Warcraft 3 had a prizepool split between the three teams - because all three teams would lose money on the trip anyway and it was confirmed to be the last finals of this league. One team (mTw, who ironically even won the whole thing) actually already announced to disband after the finals. It really was more of a last-hurrah/party than an actual tournament, so no one argued against the split - and of course, it was publicly known beforehand
Yep, agreed.
I think a good way to guage whether it's perfectly fine for a prize split to be agreed on for a particular competition, is to ask yourself this: if you made this known publically, would the organizers/spectators be alright with it?
For poker, the button to split is built in, it's allowed by organizers and a known part of the game.
For Magic, I'm not familiar, but perhaps spectating isn't a big deal for those events or it has been made known publically that players are able to do this, and the community is OK with it.
For Starcraft, people expect a genuine competition. Even something like Naniwa doing a terrible strategy like trying to worker rush Nestea was a huge nono. Several players splitting a prize pool is much bigger of an impact than worker rushing 1 player earlier in a tournament that they had a poor chance to win against.
In the context of competition, agreeing to split a prizepool beforehand is in the same category of illegitimating the competition, even moreso than matchfixing some games during a BoX series but still winning those matches ultimately. Because then like the whole Top 8 or whatever it was is illegitimate and people are robbed of 16-32 games or whatever of genuine competition vs just a couple.
If you are hiding it from the public, then it probably means that it's not fine and that it's unfair to someone. "Selfish" if you will.
Meanwhile, giving your fellow competitors more than the agreed split is the opposite of selfish.
I'm glad that herO refused to split Kato, and I'm glad that the players at this tourny didn't agree to split more than $3k (or was that $3k for EACH of the other players?). Because that to me would have been a much more serious offense than Life losing a few games but still winning those matches (or most of them since we'll never know), which mainly affects betters which is illegal anyways (aside from the reputation too of course). But because matchfixing happened in a league run by a body as serious and professional as Kespa, in a televised league, it was taken super seriously.
If Kespa ran Kato and herO agreed to split under the table, it would have probably been treated super seriously similar to matchfixing. It's not exactly the same as directly throwing games, but it means both players aren't playing with the stakes they agreed to play under, and the results and entertainment value will be affected.
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how is splitting prize with friends comaprable to matchfixing? It's just to even pay parity out or just straight up treating people to good dinner
you guys are ridiculous
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On March 27 2024 15:53 jinjin5000 wrote:
how is splitting prize with friends comaprable to matchfixing? It's just to even pay parity out or just straight up treating people to good dinner
you guys are ridiculous
Good point. Next time, tournament organizers should split the prize pool to qualified players (whatever the number is) evenly, so that they don't have to figure out how to split it themselves. I wonder if that would have any impact on the viewers count.
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On March 27 2024 16:04 jy_9876543210 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2024 15:53 jinjin5000 wrote:
how is splitting prize with friends comaprable to matchfixing? It's just to even pay parity out or just straight up treating people to good dinner
you guys are ridiculous Good point. Next time, tournament organizers should split the prize pool to qualified players (whatever the number is) evenly, so that they don't have to figure out how to split it themselves. I wonder if that would have any impact on the viewers count.
k, reynor treated everyone to few shots and that was fair chunk of his winnings. That's going to hurt results for sure
that $5000 8 way split for dinners si pretty mcuh matchfixing for sure!!!
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EPT
