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On March 25 2024 06:23 argonautdice wrote:
So all this happened when he was 18 or younger, which has me thinking, "Where the heck are his parents?" Teenagers should not be gambling away 30k or accepting 30k for match-fixing. Don't you need some kind of legal guardian?
i have similar questions.
who the hell was monitoring him specifically when he's traveling internationally?
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On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
This kind of judgement about a 18 yo addict has nothing to do on tl.net, especially from a "writer"
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On March 25 2024 09:31 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2024 08:30 [Phantom] wrote:It seems Life was very naive and foolish, with money. For many its difficult like that. You are young, you are super skilled so you win easy, you get a lot of money, you havent ever really had to "work" for it...or faced hardship to know you should save it... So you go a little crazy. It doesn't happen to everyone, but its not uncommon. On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). How about you share some more of that insider knwoledge?  Although I'm not sure giving 5k to the rest of the players would be considerred sellfish. Although it kind of raises the question of match fixing there... all of the players colluded to split the prize pool there? ISnt that kind of match fixing?, I was thinking for example that a GOAT list would make more sense for sc2 if we treat the game as 4 different games. WOL, HOTS, Legacy part 1 and Legacy part 2. In that case, I'd say the indusputed GOAT of HotS would be Life. So it's kinda funny we all ignore him. But still I don't know how he was behhind the scenes Prize splitting is perfectly fine as long as every player remaining in the event agrees to the split. This is common practice in lots of card games such as Poker and Magic the Gathering.
Debatable, a lot of people are against prize splitting. It's not just the players in the tournament, there's also the viewers who might have paid or travelled to see the event. Prize splitting robs them of the show they think they paid for because it takes the tension and drama away. Also, there are places where match betting is legal, which would be affected by an agreement between players like this. Prize splitting can fall under the same category as match fixing.
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
Yeah, I'm also glad that we now know Life is so selfish that he treated the other players 66% more than they agreed to when he won, despite him reportedly having lost $20-30k recently gambling at casinos. Can't believe he was even more "degenerate" than we thought.
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On March 25 2024 14:51 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). This kind of judgement about a 18 yo addict has nothing to do on tl.net, especially from a "writer"
Think its very fair when the said 18yo led to entire korean pro scene collapsing and hundreds of people losing their jobs overnight
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On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
Sounds like you consider gamblers to be selfish and degenerate people. As a mental health specialist I want to strongly encourage you to reconsider this position, particularly when we talk about adolescents and young adults.
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The kid just barely turned 17 years old (1 month) when iem katowice 2014 happend and the gambling went down, playing sc2 since he was 13 or 14, money thrown at him left and right, seems he just didn't know how to carry himself or behave...he really needed help and guidance.
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Northern Ireland24271 Posts
Addiction is a brutal mistress, but not entirely divorced from character. Some will ringfence it and have their addiction destroy themselves, some will let it destroy everyone around themselves.
I’m not even sure, and don’t like to speculate if he was even a gambling addict. Folks, even relatively poor ones can pool up some money and have a blowout in Vegas or whatever, take the wins and the losses and after a wild weekend is done that’s them done gambling.
As many will get absolutely fucking loaded for a wedding or some big occasion, but (relatively) few people absolutely need some alcohol to be vaguely functional.
Regardless, guy was a kid and clearly in need of some kind of guidance or stewardship from somewhere. Not from his peers, many of whom were also very young without much wider life experience, but well, someone.
But hey, maybe there was such an effort and Life just said ‘fuck you I know best’, I mean we’re not privy to even a fraction of the actual reality of the scenario.
Hey I’m 34 and still fucking up from time to time, I can still be disappointed in what he did and criticise it but equally have some sympathy or empathy for a bloke barely out of school
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51393 Posts
its funny how the two most despised figures in korean esports history (domestically) were both zerg players.
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Canada8988 Posts
On March 25 2024 18:55 WombaT wrote:
Addiction is a brutal mistress, but not entirely divorced from character. Some will ringfence it and have their addiction destroy themselves, some will let it destroy everyone around themselves.
I’m not even sure, and don’t like to speculate if he was even a gambling addict. Folks, even relatively poor ones can pool up some money and have a blowout in Vegas or whatever, take the wins and the losses and after a wild weekend is done that’s them done gambling.
As many will get absolutely fucking loaded for a wedding or some big occasion, but (relatively) few people absolutely need some alcohol to be vaguely functional.
Regardless, guy was a kid and clearly in need of some kind of guidance or stewardship from somewhere. Not from his peers, many of whom were also very young without much wider life experience, but well, someone.
But hey, maybe there was such an effort and Life just said ‘fuck you I know best’, I mean we’re not privy to even a fraction of the actual reality of the scenario.
Hey I’m 34 and still fucking up from time to time, I can still be disappointed in what he did and criticise it but equally have some sympathy or empathy for a bloke barely out of school
Well said.
It's hard to throw him to the sharks without knowing how things went down or how Life was acting behind the scene, but we can find the choice he made appalling.
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Addict or not, Life would have known about the previous match fixing scandals, he deserves the lifetime ban and any hate thrown his way.
SC2 fans are genuinely more sympathetic towards Life than to the players and staff who lost their jobs/livelihoods as a result of his actions. "He was just 17, he was addicted" so what? He was the most gifted SC2 player and didn't care enough to not blow it and take the scene with him. He deserves nothing from the fans.
Nothing shows the divide between foreigner fans and the Korean scene more tbh.
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France12761 Posts
Why try to find excuses for the kid anyways?
Other young players such as Maru and Creator (who were part of Prime which was also involved in match fixing) were also young and talented, yet they didn’t follow the same path as Life.
Sure, maybe he didn’t have a good enough environment from adults, but it’s not like he was 6. At 16-17 with education about match fixing and gambling due to savior / BW scandals, he knew what he was doing.
It’s good he was banned for life ( ), it’s not good that people still overrate him to these days. (Let alone find excuses)
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On March 25 2024 19:59 Poopi wrote:Why try to find excuses for the kid anyways? Other young players such as Maru and Creator (who were part of Prime which was also involved in match fixing) were also young and talented, yet they didn’t follow the same path as Life. Sure, maybe he didn’t have a good enough environment from adults, but it’s not like he was 6. At 16-17 with education about match fixing and gambling due to savior / BW scandals, he knew what he was doing. It’s good he was banned for life ( ), it’s not good that people still overrate him to these days. (Let alone find excuses)
Making excuses for bad behavior is not the same as criticizing someone for devaluating a person who has shown bad behavior. For example, calling someone a selfish degenerate who may not be fully responsible for his or her actions and as far as we know did not have malevolent plans such as destroying other peoples careers.
Also, saying that others did not follow these paths despite being in similar positions appears to be a very shortsighted argument. Extending this thought would mean that people who smoke deserve to die from cancer as others in similar circumstances were responsible enough not to smoke. Or that people who are bad at school are not deserving career opportunities as they could have known better and learned more. Etc etc
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Canada8988 Posts
On March 25 2024 19:47 Fango wrote:
Addict or not, Life would have known about the previous match fixing scandals, he deserves the lifetime ban and any hate thrown his way.
SC2 fans are genuinely more sympathetic towards Life than to the players and staff who lost their jobs/livelihoods as a result of his actions. "He was just 17, he was addicted" so what? He was the most gifted SC2 player and didn't care enough to not blow it and take the scene with him. He deserves nothing from the fans.
Nothing shows the divide between foreigner fans and the Korean scene more tbh.
I don't think people are less sympathetic with those who lost their jobs (or at least I'm not), it's just that we don't really have weekly threads about Bravo or Sorry. IDK if there's really people advocating for a removal of his lifetime ban.
On a side note, as a certified Life hater back in his playing days, I do find a bit of vindication among the whole debacle.
But, I'm also aware of junior/professionnal sports and plenty of talented 19-20 years old do stuff way worst than what we know Life did. The consequence of his actions were terrible for a lot of people, but he did "only" matchfixed on a video-game.
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On March 25 2024 20:56 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2024 19:47 Fango wrote:
Addict or not, Life would have known about the previous match fixing scandals, he deserves the lifetime ban and any hate thrown his way.
SC2 fans are genuinely more sympathetic towards Life than to the players and staff who lost their jobs/livelihoods as a result of his actions. "He was just 17, he was addicted" so what? He was the most gifted SC2 player and didn't care enough to not blow it and take the scene with him. He deserves nothing from the fans.
Nothing shows the divide between foreigner fans and the Korean scene more tbh. I don't think people are less sympathetic with those who lost their jobs (or at least I'm not), it's just that we don't really have weekly threads about Bravo or Sorry. IDK if there's really people advocating for a removal of his lifetime ban. On a side note, as a certified Life hater back in his playing days, I do find a bit of vindication among the whole debacle. But, I'm also aware of junior/professionnal sports and plenty of talented 19-20 years old do stuff way worst than what we know Life did. The consequence of his actions were terrible for a lot of people, but he did "only" matchfixed on a video-game.
Every time Life is brought up reddit and youtube are full of comments saying he was just a kid or that he doesn't still deserve to be banned. I've heard most of my Starcraft-watching friends say it irl as well. Foreign fans don't care at all about his impact on the Korean scene, they just enjoyed seeing him play overseas and compare him to athletes that dope and get a 1 or 2 year ban.
The sentiment isn't as strong on TL but that's because it's the board that focuses most on the Korean scene. Most foreign fans never even watched Proleague.
As long as there are players who lost their careers, staff who lost their jobs, and future players we never saw break out because their teams collapsed, Life doesn't deserve to play again.
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Between this and the crazy IEM Taipei story, it makes complete sense why he was arguably the most un-tiltable player of all time. Guy literally did not give a fuck.
I agree with others it seems like this guy had a complete lack of meaningful parental involvement - if that's true, can't imagine what life was like back at home.
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On March 25 2024 19:08 GTR wrote:
its funny how the two most despised figures in korean esports history (domestically) were both zerg players.
Are you a mod? Why can't I report you for shitposting? The video was really interesting but this thread is a burning toilet.
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United States1804 Posts
On March 25 2024 22:55 Haighstrom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2024 19:08 GTR wrote:
its funny how the two most despised figures in korean esports history (domestically) were both zerg players. Are you a mod? Why can't I report you for shitposting? The video was really interesting but this thread is a burning toilet.
Take a look at his post and see if it says moderator anywhere.
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If sponsors pull out immidiately because someone match fixes - how strong is the sport.
Even cycling is still going strong and we all know what happened there
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United States1804 Posts
On March 25 2024 23:33 Comedy wrote:
If sponsors pull out immidiately because someone match fixes - how strong is the sport.
Even cycling is still going strong and we all know what happened there
Gambling is illegal for Korean citizens. That's why it's a bigger deal and why sponsors wanted nothing to do with Proleague after the matchfixing scandal.
An interesting aside pertains to Magic the Gathering. MTG has always been very popular in Japan, but it never really picked up steam in Korea. One of the main theories is that because MTG is a card game, it was immediately associated with Poker, Blackjack and Casino games in general. StarCraft (and video games of all sorts) never suffered in this regard and became way more popular.
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France12761 Posts
On March 25 2024 23:33 Comedy wrote:
If sponsors pull out immidiately because someone match fixes - how strong is the sport.
Even cycling is still going strong and we all know what happened there
Asides the fact that gambling is forbidden in Korea, as stated above, the reputation of cycling has gone downhill. There are still sponsors and "the Tour de France" still has decent viewership, but if you ask anyone in France if there is still PEDs in cycling, everyone will say "yes".
But PEDs and matchfixing / losing on purpose for money is not the same thing, a better example would be boxing?
Funny thing about cycling / PEDs though, is that they have a reputation of this "PEDs going strong" in this sport, while in other sports people think there aren't as much PEDs (or even not any PEDs), despite the fact that there are PEDs in every sport, just different PEDs depending on the needs of the sport.
But it's mostly about money: in basketball, it brings a lot of money to have 82 regular games a season in the NBA. It's tough on the body, so you gotta be able to recover faster... In football, asides from the "publicly" known stuff like Juventus back in the days, there has been recently the "Pogba" case which surprised people that there are PEDs in football, despite the sport requiring "technique". For sure, technique is needed, but athleticism too, and it's easier to stay on top of your technique when you aren't totally gased out in a long match...
If using PEDs brings more money in some way or the other, there will be PEDs. If maintaining the illusion that PEDs aren't used is necessary, ways will be found to maintain that illusion.
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EPT
