On March 25 2024 19:08 GTR wrote: its funny how the two most despised figures in korean esports history (domestically) were both zerg players.
Not really since there are only 3 race to begin with, high likelihood that two players play the same race. Besides, SC1 races are pretty different to SC2 if you ask me.
On March 25 2024 08:58 Blargh wrote: This is hilarious. The level of apathy Life had while still being so good at the game is pretty crazy. It's really not that surprising with everything that happened now
I think one thing that these super successful early esports (also real sports) careers do is they disable youth and young adults from ever learning how to manage their life / career / finances / etc. They spend so much time playing a video game, and even making substantial amounts of money playing this video game, but never learn actual life skills to know how to manage that money.
Very true. From PiG's GOAT list discussion video, he mentioned when Life was playing Maru at the grand final of IEM Taipei 2015 and won, he literally waltzed into the booth drunk and stank from a night out partying without showering. He just turned 18 at this point. Timestamp:
Of course it is speculation, but this kind of proofs to me yet again that Life owns his legacy mostly to being a matchfixer. He was already slumping when he got arrested and seeing how unstable he was, I just can't imagine him having such a long career as Maru for example. He would have broken down eventually and today he would probably be kind of forgotten as "that one kid that used to be good"
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere.
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere.
The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history?
It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives.
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere.
The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history?
It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives.
That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems.
People say "he should have known." Do you remember when you were 18? How many dumb choices you made that, yes, you should have known better?
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere.
The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history?
It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives.
That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems.
IDK, other progamers who didn't cause similar level of destruction were only 2-3 years older at most. IDK why there's so much excuse for him when there are much more victims to this story as well as clear precedence that showed what happens to scene and matchfixers so clearly laid out just years prior.
he had his own selfish reasons and played huge part in taking out entire industry with planned renwal to 2018 pretty much done - people asking to "forgive" and "look past" his doing are ignoring hundreds of other people he damaged and dismantled careers just because he played Zerg rather well.
"but he was just 17" and he's welcome to look for a career in non-gaming field and especially not StarCraft. Other matchfixers in past are doing fine in everyday regular jobs, just not in progaming.
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere.
The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history?
It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives.
That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems.
IDK, other progamers who didn't cause similar level of destruction were only 2-3 years older at most. IDK why there's so much excuse for him when there are much more victims to this story as well as clear precedence that showed what happens to scene and matchfixers so clearly laid out just years prior.
he had his own selfish reasons and played huge part in taking out entire industry with planned renwal to 2018 pretty much done - people asking to "forgive" and "look past" his doing are ignoring hundreds of other people he damaged and dismantled careers just because he played Zerg rather well.
Guy clearly has severe gambling and mental problems. And clearly complete failures of parents to raise him. Do you think we should always hate such individuals, even when they do acts that lead to terrible consequences? If so, good on you for being consistent. I, for one, do not.
But you are making a good point - it is completely fine to call him completely selfish for what he did. But I also think it's completely fair to say he was a dumb kid, with severe problems, and I genuinely hope he got the help he needed.
"but he was just 17" and he's welcome to look for a career in non-gaming field and especially not StarCraft. Other matchfixers in past are doing fine in everyday regular jobs, just not in progaming.
You're responding to something I, and the poster you responded to (as far as I'm aware), have never argued. In fact, I believe very very few people would believe he should ever be allowed back into progaming.
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere.
The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history?
It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives.
That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems.
IDK, other progamers who didn't cause similar level of destruction were only 2-3 years older at most. IDK why there's so much excuse for him when there are much more victims to this story as well as clear precedence that showed what happens to scene and matchfixers so clearly laid out just years prior.
he had his own selfish reasons and played huge part in taking out entire industry with planned renwal to 2018 pretty much done - people asking to "forgive" and "look past" his doing are ignoring hundreds of other people he damaged and dismantled careers just because he played Zerg rather well.
Guy clearly has severe gambling and mental problems. And clearly complete failures of parents to raise him. Do you think we should always hate such individuals, even when they do acts that lead to terrible consequences? If so, good on you for being consistent. I, for one, do not.
But you are making a good point - it is completely fine to call him completely selfish for what he did. But I also think it's completely fair to say he was a dumb kid, with severe problems, and I genuinely hope he got the help he needed.
and he's welcome to look for a career in non-gaming field and especially not StarCraft. Other matchfixers in past in BW scene are doing fine in everyday regular jobs, just not in progaming.
And amount of money reported they've gotten from fixing games officially are in no way true, unless they are lower-ranked guys. People like crocus who were hgiher up/deeper into matchfixing have earned well enough to hire army of lawyers to scrub his name from internet and teammates say he's living good life right now while not repenting at all. SaviOr, for all his talk of running out of money, covers himself in luxury/brand goods whenever he streams.
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere.
The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history?
It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives.
That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems.
IDK, other progamers who didn't cause similar level of destruction were only 2-3 years older at most. IDK why there's so much excuse for him when there are much more victims to this story as well as clear precedence that showed what happens to scene and matchfixers so clearly laid out just years prior.
he had his own selfish reasons and played huge part in taking out entire industry with planned renwal to 2018 pretty much done - people asking to "forgive" and "look past" his doing are ignoring hundreds of other people he damaged and dismantled careers just because he played Zerg rather well.
Guy clearly has severe gambling and mental problems. And clearly complete failures of parents to raise him. Do you think we should always hate such individuals, even when they do acts that lead to terrible consequences? If so, good on you for being consistent. I, for one, do not.
But you are making a good point - it is completely fine to call him completely selfish for what he did. But I also think it's completely fair to say he was a dumb kid, with severe problems, and I genuinely hope he got the help he needed.
and he's welcome to look for a career in non-gaming field and especially not StarCraft. Other matchfixers in past in BW scene are doing fine in everyday regular jobs, just not in progaming.
And amount of money reported they've gotten from fixing games officially are in no way true, unless they are lower-ranked guys. People like crocus who were hgiher up/deeper into matchfixing have earned well enough to hire army of lawyers to scrub his name from internet and teammates say he's living good life right now while not repenting at all. SaviOr, for all his talk of running out of money, covers himself in luxury/brand goods whenever he streams.
Again, neither me nor as far as I'm aware the person you originally responded to have ever said that he should be allowed into pro-gaming. And notwithstanding Fango's earlier posts on the topic, I personally have almost never seen comments to that effects.
By the way, thank you so much for posting this and possibly transcribing them too? You are awesome for doing that and really opening up a window that most foreign fans do not have access to!
There is one mildly funny detail about Life's final contribution to StarCraft II. Life played for KT in 2015, but before the 2016 started he requested to be traded to the Afreeca Freecs (which was previously Startale) and Startale sent Leenock to KT in return. Two days later, Life got arrested for match fixing, which means the Freecs gave away Leenock for free. Life just had to screw his old team over one last time.
I don’t really blame Life for what he did He did what he thought was best for him and in his best interest (which was earn more $$ through match fixing ). Too bad he wasn’t smart enough and end up getting caught.
All the people who got affected by it? Who cares? Cause that’s the human nature, selfish. We human do things that benefits us at the expense of others on a daily basis.
And to all the people who are on their high horses, all the things you are using and consuming, those all are made at the expense of others
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere.
The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history?
It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives.
That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems.
IDK, other progamers who didn't cause similar level of destruction were only 2-3 years older at most. IDK why there's so much excuse for him when there are much more victims to this story as well as clear precedence that showed what happens to scene and matchfixers so clearly laid out just years prior.
he had his own selfish reasons and played huge part in taking out entire industry with planned renwal to 2018 pretty much done - people asking to "forgive" and "look past" his doing are ignoring hundreds of other people he damaged and dismantled careers just because he played Zerg rather well.
"but he was just 17" and he's welcome to look for a career in non-gaming field and especially not StarCraft. Other matchfixers in past are doing fine in everyday regular jobs, just not in progaming.
It's OK to condemn Life for his matchfixing. It's totally different to condemn him for having a gambling addiction.
Like Pandain said, it's separate from their point. Gambling your money away at a casino is fine, that's your choice, you have a chance of making money instead of losing money. Matchfixing is illegal and hurts other people.
If say, he had an eating disorder and indulged in eating lots of yummy foods and spent lots of money that way. You wouldn't call it "selfish" and "degenerate" would you? Those are not the right words to use.
Like oh, they had a eating disorder / indulged too much in eating expensive foods, serves them right for being caught for matchfixing! What a fitting end for someone so selfish and degenerate, things could have only ended up in being convicted of a crime! No, that makes no sense.
I didn't recognize who was speaking, until I saw that it was Oz! Kind of surprised that Oz couldn't remember Life's name? Like how is that even possible lol.
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere.
The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history?
It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives.
That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems.
People say "he should have known." Do you remember when you were 18? How many dumb choices you made that, yes, you should have known better?
18 year olds aren't toddlers. Life knew that if caught it could do irreparable damage to his scene and did it anyway. I'm sure I made dumb decisions at 18 here and there, but I never put someone's job on the line, let alone many people's
If you want to destroy your own life gambling, sure go ahead, although I hope you get help and manage not to overcome the addiction. But don't gamble other people's livelihoods as well, do that and you lose any sympathy you could have had.
Side note, he didn't even just 'play sloppy' in the games either, the ones confirmed as fixed had him losing multiple drones to the first reaper. He didn't try to make a good throw.
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere.
The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history?
It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives.
That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems.
People say "he should have known." Do you remember when you were 18? How many dumb choices you made that, yes, you should have known better?
18 year olds aren't toddlers. Life knew that if caught it could do irreparable damage to his scene and did it anyway. I'm sure I made dumb decisions at 18 here and there, but I never put someone's job on the line, let alone many people's
If you want to destroy your own life gambling, sure go ahead, although I hope you get help and manage not to overcome the addiction. But don't gamble other people's livelihoods as well, do that and you lose any sympathy you could have had.
Side note, he didn't even just 'play sloppy' in the games either, the ones confirmed as fixed had him losing multiple drones to the first reaper. He didn't try to make a good throw.
match fixing and gambling goes on in many competitive games. the games entertainment level allows it to live through it. Sc2 just ain't that entertaining. European Football/Soccer is filled with match fixing. https://www.amazon.ca/Fix-Soccer-Organized-Crime/dp/077104139X no one cares.
The decline of the Sc2 scene can't be put on LIfe's actions.
EDIT: looks like we have a new NBA match fixing issue today. LOL. its every where. Of course, Jontay Porter is getting paid peanuts to participate in games where 10,000 times what he makes is on the line in bets. So its no big shocker. The NBA will roll along like nothing happened.
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere.
The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history?
It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives.
That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems.
People say "he should have known." Do you remember when you were 18? How many dumb choices you made that, yes, you should have known better?
18 year olds aren't toddlers. Life knew that if caught it could do irreparable damage to his scene and did it anyway. I'm sure I made dumb decisions at 18 here and there, but I never put someone's job on the line, let alone many people's
If you want to destroy your own life gambling, sure go ahead, although I hope you get help and manage not to overcome the addiction. But don't gamble other people's livelihoods as well, do that and you lose any sympathy you could have had.
Side note, he didn't even just 'play sloppy' in the games either, the ones confirmed as fixed had him losing multiple drones to the first reaper. He didn't try to make a good throw.
match fixing and gambling goes on in many competitive games. the games entertainment level allows it to live through it. Sc2 just ain't that entertaining. European Football/Soccer is filled with match fixing. https://www.amazon.ca/Fix-Soccer-Organized-Crime/dp/077104139X no one cares.
The decline of the Sc2 scene can't be put on LIfe's actions.
EDIT: looks like we have a new NBA match fixing issue today. LOL. its every where. Of course, Jontay Porter is getting paid peanuts to participate in games where 10,000 times what he makes is on the line in bets. So its no big shocker. The NBA will roll along like nothing happened.
Jimmy I dunno what to tell you, enough people have said already that Kespa and its associated teams had already drafted up an extension to the SC2 scene for a couple more years. Which then fell through directly due to the match-fixing scandal.
‘Nope, wasn’t that SC2 just isn’t entertaining enough’
The last big matchfixing scandals that spring to mind in the mid-90s and mid-to-late 2000s saw Marseilles, and Italy’s biggest club Juventus kicked out lof their respective top leagues, and others given other punishments.
Actual match fixing is comparatively rare, with big consequences when it comes to life. Probably more goes on than is exposed certainly but I’ve seen little evidence attempts to actually fix matches is that endemic.
Certainly spot-fixing is quite common in comparison. Markets such as ‘time for first throw in’ or ‘first player to get a yellow card’ are basically tailor-made for gambling/player collusion. Still corruption of a kind, but not to the level one is actually influencing a fixture’s ultimate outcome.
Aside from other considerations, I imagine it’s extremely difficult to make it worth a top European player’s while to actually fix a match, and you might need more than one to boot. Harder still to start moving the requisite money around without it being flagged, although far from impossible.
Even a relatively mediocre top flight football in any of Europe’s top leagues is getting a Katowice level payout ever week or so, it’s not a foolproof guard against corruption but it is something of a shield.
Make no mistake a big, confirmed match-making scandal would be absolutely devastating to even the English Premier League, or the Champion’s League. Doubtful that it would completely destroy them but there’d be pretty dire consequences. Clubs would very likely go insolvent in the aftermath as many are already flying close to the sun as it is financially and any level of broadcaster/sponsorship pullback would cripple them basically irreparably.
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere.
The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history?
It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives.
That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems.
People say "he should have known." Do you remember when you were 18? How many dumb choices you made that, yes, you should have known better?
18 year olds aren't toddlers. Life knew that if caught it could do irreparable damage to his scene and did it anyway. I'm sure I made dumb decisions at 18 here and there, but I never put someone's job on the line, let alone many people's
If you want to destroy your own life gambling, sure go ahead, although I hope you get help and manage not to overcome the addiction. But don't gamble other people's livelihoods as well, do that and you lose any sympathy you could have had.
Side note, he didn't even just 'play sloppy' in the games either, the ones confirmed as fixed had him losing multiple drones to the first reaper. He didn't try to make a good throw.
match fixing and gambling goes on in many competitive games. the games entertainment level allows it to live through it. Sc2 just ain't that entertaining. European Football/Soccer is filled with match fixing. https://www.amazon.ca/Fix-Soccer-Organized-Crime/dp/077104139X no one cares.
The decline of the Sc2 scene can't be put on LIfe's actions.
EDIT: looks like we have a new NBA match fixing issue today. LOL. its every where. Of course, Jontay Porter is getting paid peanuts to participate in games where 10,000 times what he makes is on the line in bets. So its no big shocker. The NBA will roll along like nothing happened.
Soccer is not particularly entertaining either, 90mn of mostly nothing happening (yeah there is something they try to build something yada yada but you know what I mean) so I am not sure if that’s a good comparison.
And really, who even is Jontay Porter? Is LeBron James losing games on purpose for money? Is it public information? Else how is it a valid comparison to Life’s match fixing? We are not talking about Bbyong match fix here
The death of pro league / decline of sc2 is not solely due to Life but it didn’t help, and I am a bit flabbergasted that people are shocked by « degen gambling addict » rather than what Life actually did. The fact that he is 17yo doesn’t change much, should have he been 18 before he got to get called by reasonable names given the circumstances?
A lot of progamers put their entire life into the game, and this young Zerg didn’t help them at all with his actions.
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere.
The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history?
It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives.
That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems.
People say "he should have known." Do you remember when you were 18? How many dumb choices you made that, yes, you should have known better?
18 year olds aren't toddlers. Life knew that if caught it could do irreparable damage to his scene and did it anyway. I'm sure I made dumb decisions at 18 here and there, but I never put someone's job on the line, let alone many people's
If you want to destroy your own life gambling, sure go ahead, although I hope you get help and manage not to overcome the addiction. But don't gamble other people's livelihoods as well, do that and you lose any sympathy you could have had.
Side note, he didn't even just 'play sloppy' in the games either, the ones confirmed as fixed had him losing multiple drones to the first reaper. He didn't try to make a good throw.
match fixing and gambling goes on in many competitive games. the games entertainment level allows it to live through it. Sc2 just ain't that entertaining. European Football/Soccer is filled with match fixing. https://www.amazon.ca/Fix-Soccer-Organized-Crime/dp/077104139X no one cares.
The decline of the Sc2 scene can't be put on LIfe's actions.
EDIT: looks like we have a new NBA match fixing issue today. LOL. its every where. Of course, Jontay Porter is getting paid peanuts to participate in games where 10,000 times what he makes is on the line in bets. So its no big shocker. The NBA will roll along like nothing happened.
Soccer is not particularly entertaining either, 90mn of mostly nothing happening (yeah there is something they try to build something yada yada but you know what I mean) so I am not sure if that’s a good comparison.
And really, who even is Jontay Porter? Is LeBron James losing games on purpose for money? Is it public information? Else how is it a valid comparison to Life’s match fixing? We are not talking about Bbyong match fix here
The death of pro league / decline of sc2 is not solely due to Life but it didn’t help, and I am a bit flabbergasted that people are shocked by « degen gambling addict » rather than what Life actually did. The fact that he is 17yo doesn’t change much, should have he been 18 before he got to get called by reasonable names given the circumstances?
A lot of progamers put their entire life into the game, and this young Zerg didn’t help them at all with his actions.
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere.
The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history?
It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives.
That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems.
People say "he should have known." Do you remember when you were 18? How many dumb choices you made that, yes, you should have known better?
18 year olds aren't toddlers. Life knew that if caught it could do irreparable damage to his scene and did it anyway. I'm sure I made dumb decisions at 18 here and there, but I never put someone's job on the line, let alone many people's
If you want to destroy your own life gambling, sure go ahead, although I hope you get help and manage not to overcome the addiction. But don't gamble other people's livelihoods as well, do that and you lose any sympathy you could have had.
Side note, he didn't even just 'play sloppy' in the games either, the ones confirmed as fixed had him losing multiple drones to the first reaper. He didn't try to make a good throw.
match fixing and gambling goes on in many competitive games. the games entertainment level allows it to live through it. Sc2 just ain't that entertaining. European Football/Soccer is filled with match fixing. https://www.amazon.ca/Fix-Soccer-Organized-Crime/dp/077104139X no one cares.
The decline of the Sc2 scene can't be put on LIfe's actions.
EDIT: looks like we have a new NBA match fixing issue today. LOL. its every where. Of course, Jontay Porter is getting paid peanuts to participate in games where 10,000 times what he makes is on the line in bets. So its no big shocker. The NBA will roll along like nothing happened.
Soccer is not particularly entertaining either, 90mn of mostly nothing happening (yeah there is something they try to build something yada yada but you know what I mean) so I am not sure if that’s a good comparison.
And really, who even is Jontay Porter? Is LeBron James losing games on purpose for money? Is it public information? Else how is it a valid comparison to Life’s match fixing? We are not talking about Bbyong match fix here
The death of pro league / decline of sc2 is not solely due to Life but it didn’t help, and I am a bit flabbergasted that people are shocked by « degen gambling addict » rather than what Life actually did. The fact that he is 17yo doesn’t change much, should have he been 18 before he got to get called by reasonable names given the circumstances?
A lot of progamers put their entire life into the game, and this young Zerg didn’t help them at all with his actions.
People are shocked by what Life did, but that is something we cannot change. The way we discuss this topic and particularly match fixers as persons on the other hand is something we can change and therefore is meaningful to point out.
By the way I do not think it is relevant if he had an actual addiction or not (which he probably did not have in a clinical meaning, but who knows?). Gambling is something that causes addictive behavior and the industry is abusing that. You can lose a lot of money very quickly and get into financial pressure despite success in your job, in this case pro-gaming. So things like that can happen rather easily and draw people into criminality, which is very often the case in addiction disorders of any kind. People here are saying the have not jeopardized the careers of other people when the did "bad things while being young", but that probably is because unlike Life most of us were never in a position to do so as we were never public figures or top of the world in what we are doing ;-)
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was).
What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere.
The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history?
It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives.
That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems.
People say "he should have known." Do you remember when you were 18? How many dumb choices you made that, yes, you should have known better?
18 year olds aren't toddlers. Life knew that if caught it could do irreparable damage to his scene and did it anyway. I'm sure I made dumb decisions at 18 here and there, but I never put someone's job on the line, let alone many people's
If you want to destroy your own life gambling, sure go ahead, although I hope you get help and manage not to overcome the addiction. But don't gamble other people's livelihoods as well, do that and you lose any sympathy you could have had.
Side note, he didn't even just 'play sloppy' in the games either, the ones confirmed as fixed had him losing multiple drones to the first reaper. He didn't try to make a good throw.
match fixing and gambling goes on in many competitive games. the games entertainment level allows it to live through it. Sc2 just ain't that entertaining. European Football/Soccer is filled with match fixing. https://www.amazon.ca/Fix-Soccer-Organized-Crime/dp/077104139X no one cares.
The decline of the Sc2 scene can't be put on LIfe's actions.
EDIT: looks like we have a new NBA match fixing issue today. LOL. its every where. Of course, Jontay Porter is getting paid peanuts to participate in games where 10,000 times what he makes is on the line in bets. So its no big shocker. The NBA will roll along like nothing happened.
Soccer is not particularly entertaining either, 90mn of mostly nothing happening (yeah there is something they try to build something yada yada but you know what I mean) so I am not sure if that’s a good comparison.
And really, who even is Jontay Porter? Is LeBron James losing games on purpose for money? Is it public information? Else how is it a valid comparison to Life’s match fixing? We are not talking about Bbyong match fix here
The death of pro league / decline of sc2 is not solely due to Life but it didn’t help, and I am a bit flabbergasted that people are shocked by « degen gambling addict » rather than what Life actually did. The fact that he is 17yo doesn’t change much, should have he been 18 before he got to get called by reasonable names given the circumstances?
A lot of progamers put their entire life into the game, and this young Zerg didn’t help them at all with his actions.
People are shocked by what Life did, but that is something we cannot change. The way we discuss this topic and particularly match fixers as persons on the other hand is something we can change and therefore is meaningful to point out.
By the way I do not think it is relevant if he had an actual addiction or not (which he probably did not have in a clinical meaning, but who knows?). Gambling is something that causes addictive behavior and the industry is abusing that. You can lose a lot of money very quickly and get into financial pressure despite success in your job, in this case pro-gaming. So things like that can happen rather easily and draw people into criminality, which is very often the case in addiction disorders of any kind. People here are saying the have not jeopardized the careers of other people when the did "bad things while being young", but that probably is because unlike Life most of us were never in a position to do so as we were never public figures or top of the world in what we are doing ;-)
Yeah good point. For those of us who aren't rich at age 17-18, if we have bad spending habits or financial discipline, we waste maybe a few hundred buying shoes or maybe some thousands buying a car or something. But multiply the amount of money by 10x, then you're suddenly losing a lot more. This can apply to matchfixing as well.
Totally agree too that the way we discuss the topic is something that can make a difference. All topics about Life don't need to devolve into condeming every aspect of his life and tying it into his matchfixing. It's ok to condemn his matchfixing but recognize that other things are other things and can be talked about in other ways.
EPT
