EPTLife's Huge Gambling Spree After IEM Katowice 2014
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
| ||
|
ejozl
Denmark3340 Posts
| ||
|
Yoshi Kirishima
United States10313 Posts
| ||
|
TequilaMockingbird
Germany64 Posts
| ||
|
nullrd
22 Posts
| ||
Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On March 25 2024 05:31 nullrd wrote: which tournament in germany is oz talking about? Life never won any tournament in Germany according to liquipedia, so either Oz is remembering the story wrong or it was some kind of unofficial tournament/invitational, maybe something at a Gamescom? | ||
|
argonautdice
Canada2704 Posts
| ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24289 Posts
On March 25 2024 05:31 nullrd wrote: which tournament in germany is oz talking about? Is this Oz reminiscising? | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On March 25 2024 05:57 Nakajin wrote: Life never won any tournament in Germany according to liquipedia, so either Oz is remembering the story wrong or it was some kind of unofficial tournament/invitational, maybe something at a Gamescom? probably somewhere foreign where he just misremember/misunderstood to be germany lol | ||
|
Yoshi Kirishima
United States10313 Posts
On March 25 2024 06:23 argonautdice wrote: So all this happened when he was 18 or younger, which has me thinking, "Where the heck are his parents?" Teenagers should not be gambling away 30k or accepting 30k for match-fixing. Don't you need some kind of legal guardian? Wait yeah don't you have to be 18+ to enter casinos in most countries? | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
| ||
|
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
So you go a little crazy. It doesn't happen to everyone, but its not uncommon. On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). How about you share some more of that insider knwoledge?  Although I'm not sure giving 5k to the rest of the players would be considerred sellfish.Although it kind of raises the question of match fixing there... all of the players colluded to split the prize pool there? ISnt that kind of match fixing?, I was thinking for example that a GOAT list would make more sense for sc2 if we treat the game as 4 different games. WOL, HOTS, Legacy part 1 and Legacy part 2. In that case, I'd say the indusputed GOAT of HotS would be Life. So it's kinda funny we all ignore him. But still I don't know how he was behhind the scenes | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On March 25 2024 08:30 [Phantom] wrote: It seems Life was very naive and foolish, with money. For many its difficult like that. You are young, you are super skilled so you win easy, you get a lot of money, you havent ever really had to "work" for it...or faced hardship to know you should save it... So you go a little crazy. It doesn't happen to everyone, but its not uncommon. How about you share some more of that insider knwoledge? Although I'm not sure giving 5k to the rest of the players would be considerred sellfish.Although it kind of raises the question of match fixing there... all of the players colluded to split the prize pool there? ISnt that kind of match fixing?, I was thinking for example that a GOAT list would make more sense for sc2 if we treat the game as 4 different games. WOL, HOTS, Legacy part 1 and Legacy part 2. In that case, I'd say the indusputed GOAT of HotS would be Life. So it's kinda funny we all ignore him. But still I don't know how he was behhind the scenes Isn't it fairly common practice for winner of tournament to treat his teammates/friends/staff with part of their winnings? This isn't really limited to koreans either. matchfixing is influencing the individual results for sake specific targetted results, not predetermined, "yo, let's have winner treat someone!" before games are even played. | ||
|
Blargh
United States2101 Posts
I think one thing that these super successful early esports (also real sports) careers do is they disable youth and young adults from ever learning how to manage their life / career / finances / etc. They spend so much time playing a video game, and even making substantial amounts of money playing this video game, but never learn actual life skills to know how to manage that money. | ||
|
argonautdice
Canada2704 Posts
On March 25 2024 08:58 Blargh wrote: This is hilarious. The level of apathy Life had while still being so good at the game is pretty crazy. It's really not that surprising with everything that happened now I think one thing that these super successful early esports (also real sports) careers do is they disable youth and young adults from ever learning how to manage their life / career / finances / etc. They spend so much time playing a video game, and even making substantial amounts of money playing this video game, but never learn actual life skills to know how to manage that money. Very true. From PiG's GOAT list discussion video, he mentioned when Life was playing Maru at the grand final of IEM Taipei 2015 and won, he literally waltzed into the booth drunk and stank from a night out partying without showering. He just turned 18 at this point. Timestamp: | ||
|
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On March 25 2024 08:30 [Phantom] wrote: It seems Life was very naive and foolish, with money. For many its difficult like that. You are young, you are super skilled so you win easy, you get a lot of money, you havent ever really had to "work" for it...or faced hardship to know you should save it... So you go a little crazy. It doesn't happen to everyone, but its not uncommon. How about you share some more of that insider knwoledge? Although I'm not sure giving 5k to the rest of the players would be considerred sellfish.Although it kind of raises the question of match fixing there... all of the players colluded to split the prize pool there? ISnt that kind of match fixing?, I was thinking for example that a GOAT list would make more sense for sc2 if we treat the game as 4 different games. WOL, HOTS, Legacy part 1 and Legacy part 2. In that case, I'd say the indusputed GOAT of HotS would be Life. So it's kinda funny we all ignore him. But still I don't know how he was behhind the scenes Prize splitting is perfectly fine as long as every player remaining in the event agrees to the split. This is common practice in lots of card games such as Poker and Magic the Gathering. | ||
|
RogerChillingworth
2824 Posts
| ||
|
AlexGano
24 Posts
a joke, just like himself | ||
|
CicadaSC
United States1420 Posts
| ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On March 25 2024 11:47 CicadaSC wrote: So sad what happened. We'll never know the full story. When I hear about how match fixing happens a lot of the time it seemed to me players were coerced with low level fixing or something negligible by team management, and then once u start it gets leveraged as blackmail to make players essentially puppets. its not like players were blind to it. Players get mandatory matchfixing/gambling training/education session after the whole BW matchfixing incident annually. | ||
|
necrosexy
451 Posts
On March 25 2024 06:23 argonautdice wrote: So all this happened when he was 18 or younger, which has me thinking, "Where the heck are his parents?" Teenagers should not be gambling away 30k or accepting 30k for match-fixing. Don't you need some kind of legal guardian? i have similar questions. who the hell was monitoring him specifically when he's traveling internationally? | ||
|
stilt
France2743 Posts
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). This kind of judgement about a 18 yo addict has nothing to do on tl.net, especially from a "writer" | ||
|
Yoshi Kirishima
United States10313 Posts
On March 25 2024 09:31 Mizenhauer wrote: Prize splitting is perfectly fine as long as every player remaining in the event agrees to the split. This is common practice in lots of card games such as Poker and Magic the Gathering. Debatable, a lot of people are against prize splitting. It's not just the players in the tournament, there's also the viewers who might have paid or travelled to see the event. Prize splitting robs them of the show they think they paid for because it takes the tension and drama away. Also, there are places where match betting is legal, which would be affected by an agreement between players like this. Prize splitting can fall under the same category as match fixing. On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). Yeah, I'm also glad that we now know Life is so selfish that he treated the other players 66% more than they agreed to when he won, despite him reportedly having lost $20-30k recently gambling at casinos. Can't believe he was even more "degenerate" than we thought. | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On March 25 2024 14:51 stilt wrote: This kind of judgement about a 18 yo addict has nothing to do on tl.net, especially from a "writer" Think its very fair when the said 18yo led to entire korean pro scene collapsing and hundreds of people losing their jobs overnight | ||
|
Gilgamesh_
31 Posts
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). Sounds like you consider gamblers to be selfish and degenerate people. As a mental health specialist I want to strongly encourage you to reconsider this position, particularly when we talk about adolescents and young adults. | ||
|
Comedy
453 Posts
| ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24289 Posts
I’m not even sure, and don’t like to speculate if he was even a gambling addict. Folks, even relatively poor ones can pool up some money and have a blowout in Vegas or whatever, take the wins and the losses and after a wild weekend is done that’s them done gambling. As many will get absolutely fucking loaded for a wedding or some big occasion, but (relatively) few people absolutely need some alcohol to be vaguely functional. Regardless, guy was a kid and clearly in need of some kind of guidance or stewardship from somewhere. Not from his peers, many of whom were also very young without much wider life experience, but well, someone. But hey, maybe there was such an effort and Life just said ‘fuck you I know best’, I mean we’re not privy to even a fraction of the actual reality of the scenario. Hey I’m 34 and still fucking up from time to time, I can still be disappointed in what he did and criticise it but equally have some sympathy or empathy for a bloke barely out of school | ||
GTR
51393 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On March 25 2024 18:55 WombaT wrote: Addiction is a brutal mistress, but not entirely divorced from character. Some will ringfence it and have their addiction destroy themselves, some will let it destroy everyone around themselves. I’m not even sure, and don’t like to speculate if he was even a gambling addict. Folks, even relatively poor ones can pool up some money and have a blowout in Vegas or whatever, take the wins and the losses and after a wild weekend is done that’s them done gambling. As many will get absolutely fucking loaded for a wedding or some big occasion, but (relatively) few people absolutely need some alcohol to be vaguely functional. Regardless, guy was a kid and clearly in need of some kind of guidance or stewardship from somewhere. Not from his peers, many of whom were also very young without much wider life experience, but well, someone. But hey, maybe there was such an effort and Life just said ‘fuck you I know best’, I mean we’re not privy to even a fraction of the actual reality of the scenario. Hey I’m 34 and still fucking up from time to time, I can still be disappointed in what he did and criticise it but equally have some sympathy or empathy for a bloke barely out of school Well said. It's hard to throw him to the sharks without knowing how things went down or how Life was acting behind the scene, but we can find the choice he made appalling. | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
SC2 fans are genuinely more sympathetic towards Life than to the players and staff who lost their jobs/livelihoods as a result of his actions. "He was just 17, he was addicted" so what? He was the most gifted SC2 player and didn't care enough to not blow it and take the scene with him. He deserves nothing from the fans. Nothing shows the divide between foreigner fans and the Korean scene more tbh. | ||
|
Poopi
France12761 Posts
Other young players such as Maru and Creator (who were part of Prime which was also involved in match fixing) were also young and talented, yet they didn’t follow the same path as Life. Sure, maybe he didn’t have a good enough environment from adults, but it’s not like he was 6. At 16-17 with education about match fixing and gambling due to savior / BW scandals, he knew what he was doing. It’s good he was banned for life (  ), it’s not good that people still overrate him to these days. (Let alone find excuses) | ||
|
Gilgamesh_
31 Posts
On March 25 2024 19:59 Poopi wrote: Why try to find excuses for the kid anyways? Other young players such as Maru and Creator (who were part of Prime which was also involved in match fixing) were also young and talented, yet they didn’t follow the same path as Life. Sure, maybe he didn’t have a good enough environment from adults, but it’s not like he was 6. At 16-17 with education about match fixing and gambling due to savior / BW scandals, he knew what he was doing. It’s good he was banned for life ( ), it’s not good that people still overrate him to these days. (Let alone find excuses)Making excuses for bad behavior is not the same as criticizing someone for devaluating a person who has shown bad behavior. For example, calling someone a selfish degenerate who may not be fully responsible for his or her actions and as far as we know did not have malevolent plans such as destroying other peoples careers. Also, saying that others did not follow these paths despite being in similar positions appears to be a very shortsighted argument. Extending this thought would mean that people who smoke deserve to die from cancer as others in similar circumstances were responsible enough not to smoke. Or that people who are bad at school are not deserving career opportunities as they could have known better and learned more. Etc etc | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On March 25 2024 19:47 Fango wrote: Addict or not, Life would have known about the previous match fixing scandals, he deserves the lifetime ban and any hate thrown his way. SC2 fans are genuinely more sympathetic towards Life than to the players and staff who lost their jobs/livelihoods as a result of his actions. "He was just 17, he was addicted" so what? He was the most gifted SC2 player and didn't care enough to not blow it and take the scene with him. He deserves nothing from the fans. Nothing shows the divide between foreigner fans and the Korean scene more tbh. I don't think people are less sympathetic with those who lost their jobs (or at least I'm not), it's just that we don't really have weekly threads about Bravo or Sorry. IDK if there's really people advocating for a removal of his lifetime ban. On a side note, as a certified Life hater back in his playing days, I do find a bit of vindication among the whole debacle. But, I'm also aware of junior/professionnal sports and plenty of talented 19-20 years old do stuff way worst than what we know Life did. The consequence of his actions were terrible for a lot of people, but he did "only" matchfixed on a video-game. | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On March 25 2024 20:56 Nakajin wrote: I don't think people are less sympathetic with those who lost their jobs (or at least I'm not), it's just that we don't really have weekly threads about Bravo or Sorry. IDK if there's really people advocating for a removal of his lifetime ban. On a side note, as a certified Life hater back in his playing days, I do find a bit of vindication among the whole debacle. But, I'm also aware of junior/professionnal sports and plenty of talented 19-20 years old do stuff way worst than what we know Life did. The consequence of his actions were terrible for a lot of people, but he did "only" matchfixed on a video-game. Every time Life is brought up reddit and youtube are full of comments saying he was just a kid or that he doesn't still deserve to be banned. I've heard most of my Starcraft-watching friends say it irl as well. Foreign fans don't care at all about his impact on the Korean scene, they just enjoyed seeing him play overseas and compare him to athletes that dope and get a 1 or 2 year ban. The sentiment isn't as strong on TL but that's because it's the board that focuses most on the Korean scene. Most foreign fans never even watched Proleague. As long as there are players who lost their careers, staff who lost their jobs, and future players we never saw break out because their teams collapsed, Life doesn't deserve to play again. | ||
|
Pandain
United States12985 Posts
I agree with others it seems like this guy had a complete lack of meaningful parental involvement - if that's true, can't imagine what life was like back at home. | ||
|
Haighstrom
United Kingdom196 Posts
On March 25 2024 19:08 GTR wrote: its funny how the two most despised figures in korean esports history (domestically) were both zerg players. Are you a mod? Why can't I report you for shitposting? The video was really interesting but this thread is a burning toilet. | ||
|
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On March 25 2024 22:55 Haighstrom wrote: Are you a mod? Why can't I report you for shitposting? The video was really interesting but this thread is a burning toilet. Take a look at his post and see if it says moderator anywhere. | ||
|
Comedy
453 Posts
Even cycling is still going strong and we all know what happened there | ||
|
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On March 25 2024 23:33 Comedy wrote: If sponsors pull out immidiately because someone match fixes - how strong is the sport. Even cycling is still going strong and we all know what happened there Gambling is illegal for Korean citizens. That's why it's a bigger deal and why sponsors wanted nothing to do with Proleague after the matchfixing scandal. An interesting aside pertains to Magic the Gathering. MTG has always been very popular in Japan, but it never really picked up steam in Korea. One of the main theories is that because MTG is a card game, it was immediately associated with Poker, Blackjack and Casino games in general. StarCraft (and video games of all sorts) never suffered in this regard and became way more popular. | ||
|
Poopi
France12761 Posts
On March 25 2024 23:33 Comedy wrote: If sponsors pull out immidiately because someone match fixes - how strong is the sport. Even cycling is still going strong and we all know what happened there Asides the fact that gambling is forbidden in Korea, as stated above, the reputation of cycling has gone downhill. There are still sponsors and "the Tour de France" still has decent viewership, but if you ask anyone in France if there is still PEDs in cycling, everyone will say "yes". But PEDs and matchfixing / losing on purpose for money is not the same thing, a better example would be boxing? Funny thing about cycling / PEDs though, is that they have a reputation of this "PEDs going strong" in this sport, while in other sports people think there aren't as much PEDs (or even not any PEDs), despite the fact that there are PEDs in every sport, just different PEDs depending on the needs of the sport. But it's mostly about money: in basketball, it brings a lot of money to have 82 regular games a season in the NBA. It's tough on the body, so you gotta be able to recover faster... In football, asides from the "publicly" known stuff like Juventus back in the days, there has been recently the "Pogba" case which surprised people that there are PEDs in football, despite the sport requiring "technique". For sure, technique is needed, but athleticism too, and it's easier to stay on top of your technique when you aren't totally gased out in a long match... If using PEDs brings more money in some way or the other, there will be PEDs. If maintaining the illusion that PEDs aren't used is necessary, ways will be found to maintain that illusion. | ||
|
[N3O]r3d33m3r
Germany673 Posts
On March 25 2024 19:08 GTR wrote: its funny how the two most despised figures in korean esports history (domestically) were both zerg players. Not really since there are only 3 race to begin with, high likelihood that two players play the same race. Besides, SC1 races are pretty different to SC2 if you ask me. | ||
|
Balnazza
Germany1098 Posts
On March 25 2024 09:11 argonautdice wrote: Very true. From PiG's GOAT list discussion video, he mentioned when Life was playing Maru at the grand final of IEM Taipei 2015 and won, he literally waltzed into the booth drunk and stank from a night out partying without showering. He just turned 18 at this point. Timestamp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjx0NHSw5GA&t=13m40s Of course it is speculation, but this kind of proofs to me yet again that Life owns his legacy mostly to being a matchfixer. He was already slumping when he got arrested and seeing how unstable he was, I just can't imagine him having such a long career as Maru for example. He would have broken down eventually and today he would probably be kind of forgotten as "that one kid that used to be good" | ||
|
thekaas
Denmark235 Posts
On March 25 2024 08:27 Mizenhauer wrote: I've known about this since 2016. Glad to see it come out publicly. You can say what you like about Life, but he was a selfish, degenerate gambler and his SC2 career ended exactly how'd you expect given the type of person he is (was). What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere. | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On March 26 2024 03:18 thekaas wrote: What a disgraceful thing to say. Judge him all you want for the matchfixing, that's fair I do too, but calling a teenager "degenerate" and "selfish" over having a gambling addiction at barely 17 has no place anywhere. The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history? It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives. | ||
|
Pandain
United States12985 Posts
On March 26 2024 03:40 jinjin5000 wrote: The very teenager caused damage to other pros and staffs? He may not be the very cause but he put in his sizable contribution to scene destruction. How much sympathy goes to aspiring progamers like DRGling who were looking into breaking into the scene just as scene collapsed go to? How about other many aspiring up and coming progamers who never had chance? How about staffs and then progamers who thought they had a stable career in a progaming team with history? It's not like BW situation where it was all new-ish and they didn't have specific program dedicated to stop these. They all knew what they were going into and other young progamers didn't do the same thing. Life especially had a very good income and incentives. That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems. People say "he should have known." Do you remember when you were 18? How many dumb choices you made that, yes, you should have known better? | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On March 26 2024 03:45 Pandain wrote: That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems. IDK, other progamers who didn't cause similar level of destruction were only 2-3 years older at most. IDK why there's so much excuse for him when there are much more victims to this story as well as clear precedence that showed what happens to scene and matchfixers so clearly laid out just years prior. he had his own selfish reasons and played huge part in taking out entire industry with planned renwal to 2018 pretty much done - people asking to "forgive" and "look past" his doing are ignoring hundreds of other people he damaged and dismantled careers just because he played Zerg rather well. "but he was just 17" and he's welcome to look for a career in non-gaming field and especially not StarCraft. Other matchfixers in past are doing fine in everyday regular jobs, just not in progaming. | ||
|
Pandain
United States12985 Posts
On March 26 2024 03:47 jinjin5000 wrote: IDK, other progamers who didn't cause similar level of destruction were only 2-3 years older at most. IDK why there's so much excuse for him when there are much more victims to this story as well as clear precedence that showed what happens to scene and matchfixers so clearly laid out just years prior. he had his own selfish reasons and played huge part in taking out entire industry with planned renwal to 2018 pretty much done - people asking to "forgive" and "look past" his doing are ignoring hundreds of other people he damaged and dismantled careers just because he played Zerg rather well. Guy clearly has severe gambling and mental problems. And clearly complete failures of parents to raise him. Do you think we should always hate such individuals, even when they do acts that lead to terrible consequences? If so, good on you for being consistent. I, for one, do not. But you are making a good point - it is completely fine to call him completely selfish for what he did. But I also think it's completely fair to say he was a dumb kid, with severe problems, and I genuinely hope he got the help he needed. "but he was just 17" and he's welcome to look for a career in non-gaming field and especially not StarCraft. Other matchfixers in past are doing fine in everyday regular jobs, just not in progaming. You're responding to something I, and the poster you responded to (as far as I'm aware), have never argued. In fact, I believe very very few people would believe he should ever be allowed back into progaming. | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On March 26 2024 03:54 Pandain wrote: Guy clearly has severe gambling and mental problems. And clearly complete failures of parents to raise him. Do you think we should always hate such individuals, even when they do acts that lead to terrible consequences? If so, good on you for being consistent. I, for one, do not. But you are making a good point - it is completely fine to call him completely selfish for what he did. But I also think it's completely fair to say he was a dumb kid, with severe problems, and I genuinely hope he got the help he needed. and he's welcome to look for a career in non-gaming field and especially not StarCraft. Other matchfixers in past in BW scene are doing fine in everyday regular jobs, just not in progaming. And amount of money reported they've gotten from fixing games officially are in no way true, unless they are lower-ranked guys. People like crocus who were hgiher up/deeper into matchfixing have earned well enough to hire army of lawyers to scrub his name from internet and teammates say he's living good life right now while not repenting at all. SaviOr, for all his talk of running out of money, covers himself in luxury/brand goods whenever he streams. | ||
|
Pandain
United States12985 Posts
On March 26 2024 03:56 jinjin5000 wrote: and he's welcome to look for a career in non-gaming field and especially not StarCraft. Other matchfixers in past in BW scene are doing fine in everyday regular jobs, just not in progaming. And amount of money reported they've gotten from fixing games officially are in no way true, unless they are lower-ranked guys. People like crocus who were hgiher up/deeper into matchfixing have earned well enough to hire army of lawyers to scrub his name from internet and teammates say he's living good life right now while not repenting at all. SaviOr, for all his talk of running out of money, covers himself in luxury/brand goods whenever he streams. Again, neither me nor as far as I'm aware the person you originally responded to have ever said that he should be allowed into pro-gaming. And notwithstanding Fango's earlier posts on the topic, I personally have almost never seen comments to that effects. By the way, thank you so much for posting this and possibly transcribing them too? You are awesome for doing that and really opening up a window that most foreign fans do not have access to! | ||
|
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
| ||
|
Mmakorea
16 Posts
He did what he thought was best for him and in his best interest (which was earn more $$ through match fixing ). Too bad he wasn’t smart enough and end up getting caught. All the people who got affected by it? Who cares? Cause that’s the human nature, selfish. We human do things that benefits us at the expense of others on a daily basis. And to all the people who are on their high horses, all the things you are using and consuming, those all are made at the expense of others | ||
|
Yoshi Kirishima
United States10313 Posts
On March 26 2024 03:47 jinjin5000 wrote: IDK, other progamers who didn't cause similar level of destruction were only 2-3 years older at most. IDK why there's so much excuse for him when there are much more victims to this story as well as clear precedence that showed what happens to scene and matchfixers so clearly laid out just years prior. he had his own selfish reasons and played huge part in taking out entire industry with planned renwal to 2018 pretty much done - people asking to "forgive" and "look past" his doing are ignoring hundreds of other people he damaged and dismantled careers just because he played Zerg rather well. "but he was just 17" and he's welcome to look for a career in non-gaming field and especially not StarCraft. Other matchfixers in past are doing fine in everyday regular jobs, just not in progaming. It's OK to condemn Life for his matchfixing. It's totally different to condemn him for having a gambling addiction. Like Pandain said, it's separate from their point. Gambling your money away at a casino is fine, that's your choice, you have a chance of making money instead of losing money. Matchfixing is illegal and hurts other people. If say, he had an eating disorder and indulged in eating lots of yummy foods and spent lots of money that way. You wouldn't call it "selfish" and "degenerate" would you? Those are not the right words to use. Like oh, they had a eating disorder / indulged too much in eating expensive foods, serves them right for being caught for matchfixing! What a fitting end for someone so selfish and degenerate, things could have only ended up in being convicted of a crime! No, that makes no sense. | ||
|
Brutaxilos
United States2622 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On March 26 2024 03:45 Pandain wrote: That's not his point. Virtually no one is not very very sad about the effects he caused. But there is plenty of reasonable disagreement about how much you should hate a teenager with clear severe gambling/mental problems. People say "he should have known." Do you remember when you were 18? How many dumb choices you made that, yes, you should have known better? 18 year olds aren't toddlers. Life knew that if caught it could do irreparable damage to his scene and did it anyway. I'm sure I made dumb decisions at 18 here and there, but I never put someone's job on the line, let alone many people's If you want to destroy your own life gambling, sure go ahead, although I hope you get help and manage not to overcome the addiction. But don't gamble other people's livelihoods as well, do that and you lose any sympathy you could have had. Side note, he didn't even just 'play sloppy' in the games either, the ones confirmed as fixed had him losing multiple drones to the first reaper. He didn't try to make a good throw. | ||
|
JimmyJRaynor
Canada16608 Posts
On March 26 2024 09:14 Fango wrote: 18 year olds aren't toddlers. Life knew that if caught it could do irreparable damage to his scene and did it anyway. I'm sure I made dumb decisions at 18 here and there, but I never put someone's job on the line, let alone many people's If you want to destroy your own life gambling, sure go ahead, although I hope you get help and manage not to overcome the addiction. But don't gamble other people's livelihoods as well, do that and you lose any sympathy you could have had. Side note, he didn't even just 'play sloppy' in the games either, the ones confirmed as fixed had him losing multiple drones to the first reaper. He didn't try to make a good throw. match fixing and gambling goes on in many competitive games. the games entertainment level allows it to live through it. Sc2 just ain't that entertaining. European Football/Soccer is filled with match fixing. https://www.amazon.ca/Fix-Soccer-Organized-Crime/dp/077104139X no one cares. The decline of the Sc2 scene can't be put on LIfe's actions. EDIT: looks like we have a new NBA match fixing issue today. LOL. its every where. Of course, Jontay Porter is getting paid peanuts to participate in games where 10,000 times what he makes is on the line in bets. So its no big shocker. The NBA will roll along like nothing happened. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24289 Posts
On March 26 2024 14:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote: match fixing and gambling goes on in many competitive games. the games entertainment level allows it to live through it. Sc2 just ain't that entertaining. European Football/Soccer is filled with match fixing. https://www.amazon.ca/Fix-Soccer-Organized-Crime/dp/077104139X no one cares. The decline of the Sc2 scene can't be put on LIfe's actions. EDIT: looks like we have a new NBA match fixing issue today. LOL. its every where. Of course, Jontay Porter is getting paid peanuts to participate in games where 10,000 times what he makes is on the line in bets. So its no big shocker. The NBA will roll along like nothing happened. Jimmy I dunno what to tell you, enough people have said already that Kespa and its associated teams had already drafted up an extension to the SC2 scene for a couple more years. Which then fell through directly due to the match-fixing scandal. ‘Nope, wasn’t that SC2 just isn’t entertaining enough’ The last big matchfixing scandals that spring to mind in the mid-90s and mid-to-late 2000s saw Marseilles, and Italy’s biggest club Juventus kicked out lof their respective top leagues, and others given other punishments. Actual match fixing is comparatively rare, with big consequences when it comes to life. Probably more goes on than is exposed certainly but I’ve seen little evidence attempts to actually fix matches is that endemic. Certainly spot-fixing is quite common in comparison. Markets such as ‘time for first throw in’ or ‘first player to get a yellow card’ are basically tailor-made for gambling/player collusion. Still corruption of a kind, but not to the level one is actually influencing a fixture’s ultimate outcome. Aside from other considerations, I imagine it’s extremely difficult to make it worth a top European player’s while to actually fix a match, and you might need more than one to boot. Harder still to start moving the requisite money around without it being flagged, although far from impossible. Even a relatively mediocre top flight football in any of Europe’s top leagues is getting a Katowice level payout ever week or so, it’s not a foolproof guard against corruption but it is something of a shield. Make no mistake a big, confirmed match-making scandal would be absolutely devastating to even the English Premier League, or the Champion’s League. Doubtful that it would completely destroy them but there’d be pretty dire consequences. Clubs would very likely go insolvent in the aftermath as many are already flying close to the sun as it is financially and any level of broadcaster/sponsorship pullback would cripple them basically irreparably. | ||
|
Poopi
France12761 Posts
On March 26 2024 14:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote: match fixing and gambling goes on in many competitive games. the games entertainment level allows it to live through it. Sc2 just ain't that entertaining. European Football/Soccer is filled with match fixing. https://www.amazon.ca/Fix-Soccer-Organized-Crime/dp/077104139X no one cares. The decline of the Sc2 scene can't be put on LIfe's actions. EDIT: looks like we have a new NBA match fixing issue today. LOL. its every where. Of course, Jontay Porter is getting paid peanuts to participate in games where 10,000 times what he makes is on the line in bets. So its no big shocker. The NBA will roll along like nothing happened. Soccer is not particularly entertaining either, 90mn of mostly nothing happening (yeah there is something they try to build something yada yada but you know what I mean) so I am not sure if that’s a good comparison. And really, who even is Jontay Porter? Is LeBron James losing games on purpose for money? Is it public information? Else how is it a valid comparison to Life’s match fixing? We are not talking about Bbyong match fix here The death of pro league / decline of sc2 is not solely due to Life but it didn’t help, and I am a bit flabbergasted that people are shocked by « degen gambling addict » rather than what Life actually did. The fact that he is 17yo doesn’t change much, should have he been 18 before he got to get called by reasonable names given the circumstances? A lot of progamers put their entire life into the game, and this young Zerg didn’t help them at all with his actions. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24289 Posts
On March 26 2024 18:45 Poopi wrote: Soccer is not particularly entertaining either, 90mn of mostly nothing happening (yeah there is something they try to build something yada yada but you know what I mean) so I am not sure if that’s a good comparison. And really, who even is Jontay Porter? Is LeBron James losing games on purpose for money? Is it public information? Else how is it a valid comparison to Life’s match fixing? We are not talking about Bbyong match fix here The death of pro league / decline of sc2 is not solely due to Life but it didn’t help, and I am a bit flabbergasted that people are shocked by « degen gambling addict » rather than what Life actually did. The fact that he is 17yo doesn’t change much, should have he been 18 before he got to get called by reasonable names given the circumstances? A lot of progamers put their entire life into the game, and this young Zerg didn’t help them at all with his actions. How very dare you! | ||
|
Gilgamesh_
31 Posts
On March 26 2024 18:45 Poopi wrote: Soccer is not particularly entertaining either, 90mn of mostly nothing happening (yeah there is something they try to build something yada yada but you know what I mean) so I am not sure if that’s a good comparison. And really, who even is Jontay Porter? Is LeBron James losing games on purpose for money? Is it public information? Else how is it a valid comparison to Life’s match fixing? We are not talking about Bbyong match fix here The death of pro league / decline of sc2 is not solely due to Life but it didn’t help, and I am a bit flabbergasted that people are shocked by « degen gambling addict » rather than what Life actually did. The fact that he is 17yo doesn’t change much, should have he been 18 before he got to get called by reasonable names given the circumstances? A lot of progamers put their entire life into the game, and this young Zerg didn’t help them at all with his actions. People are shocked by what Life did, but that is something we cannot change. The way we discuss this topic and particularly match fixers as persons on the other hand is something we can change and therefore is meaningful to point out. By the way I do not think it is relevant if he had an actual addiction or not (which he probably did not have in a clinical meaning, but who knows?). Gambling is something that causes addictive behavior and the industry is abusing that. You can lose a lot of money very quickly and get into financial pressure despite success in your job, in this case pro-gaming. So things like that can happen rather easily and draw people into criminality, which is very often the case in addiction disorders of any kind. People here are saying the have not jeopardized the careers of other people when the did "bad things while being young", but that probably is because unlike Life most of us were never in a position to do so as we were never public figures or top of the world in what we are doing ;-) | ||
|
Yoshi Kirishima
United States10313 Posts
On March 26 2024 19:15 Gilgamesh_ wrote: People are shocked by what Life did, but that is something we cannot change. The way we discuss this topic and particularly match fixers as persons on the other hand is something we can change and therefore is meaningful to point out. By the way I do not think it is relevant if he had an actual addiction or not (which he probably did not have in a clinical meaning, but who knows?). Gambling is something that causes addictive behavior and the industry is abusing that. You can lose a lot of money very quickly and get into financial pressure despite success in your job, in this case pro-gaming. So things like that can happen rather easily and draw people into criminality, which is very often the case in addiction disorders of any kind. People here are saying the have not jeopardized the careers of other people when the did "bad things while being young", but that probably is because unlike Life most of us were never in a position to do so as we were never public figures or top of the world in what we are doing ;-) Yeah good point. For those of us who aren't rich at age 17-18, if we have bad spending habits or financial discipline, we waste maybe a few hundred buying shoes or maybe some thousands buying a car or something. But multiply the amount of money by 10x, then you're suddenly losing a lot more. This can apply to matchfixing as well. Totally agree too that the way we discuss the topic is something that can make a difference. All topics about Life don't need to devolve into condeming every aspect of his life and tying it into his matchfixing. It's ok to condemn his matchfixing but recognize that other things are other things and can be talked about in other ways. | ||
|
ejozl
Denmark3340 Posts
On March 25 2024 09:31 Mizenhauer wrote: Prize splitting is perfectly fine as long as every player remaining in the event agrees to the split. This is common practice in lots of card games such as Poker and Magic the Gathering. Of course you cannot say what the winner is supposed to do with the winnings, but agreeing like this beforehand goes against the entire point of the tournament. And just like how match fixing destroys the integrity of the tournament, so does this, though obviously to a smaller extend. I have a problem with putting all the blame of Kespa's down fall on Life. What Life did was throw game/games in two matches, while he was a minor in Korea (he was 18). It's terrible to throw matches because it damages tournament integrity, as stated, but even could be argued to an extend, because he still won those matches.. So in essence, the problem is that betters got fooled for some games while betting is supposed to be illegal in Korea. This does not mean that he shouldn't be punished, but he's being put as an absolute pariah in this case. That Life should've somehow known that Kespa had renewed a contract and that the scene would fall after this, is so stupid. And even if Life didn't match fix, the same would've happened, because guess what, other players threw games for money. SC2 didn't have problems with match fixing before Kespa, so it could also be that Kespa is just a corrupt organization. Mb some guy wanted to get in a lot of money, before the inevitable collapse that was going to happen, we will never know. I don't even know if Kespa was good for sc2, horrendous conditions for the players and an unparalleled strictness. But I admit that I'm just talking out of my arse, because, I honestly don't know anything about it. Were there investigations into who contacted these players and asked them to match fix?, was there investigation into if perhaps the Prime coach, or manager had a deal in this? In any case, it's a good discussion to be had, and the worst part of this all was the erasing of history that happened. Casters not being able to mention his name and the removal of videos, give me a break.. | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On March 25 2024 09:31 Mizenhauer wrote: Au Prize splitting is perfectly fine as long as every player remaining in the event agrees to the split. This is common practice in lots of card games such as Poker and Magic the Gathering. Personally, I find it incredibly disrespectful to the viewers and organisers. You basicly trick everyone into thinking the matches are more important than they really are and it encourage players to try less. It may not be straight matchfixing, but it's right on the line. I have no problems with players going to the organisers and advocate for a more evenly split prize pool, but under the table deals are a big no for me. I applaud herO for turning it down at Kato, even though he may regret it for the rest of his life. | ||
|
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On March 26 2024 20:18 ejozl wrote: Of course you cannot say what the winner is supposed to do with the winnings, but agreeing like this beforehand goes against the entire point of the tournament. And just like how match fixing destroys the integrity of the tournament, so does this, though obviously to a smaller extend. I have a problem with putting all the blame of Kespa's down fall on Life. What Life did was throw game/games in two matches, while he was a minor in Korea (he was 18). It's terrible to throw matches because it damages tournament integrity, as stated, but even could be argued to an extend, because he still won those matches.. So in essence, the problem is that betters got fooled for some games while betting is supposed to be illegal in Korea. This does not mean that he shouldn't be punished, but he's being put as an absolute pariah in this case. That Life should've somehow known that Kespa had renewed a contract and that the scene would fall after this, is so stupid. And even if Life didn't match fix, the same would've happened, because guess what, other players threw games for money. SC2 didn't have problems with match fixing before Kespa, so it could also be that Kespa is just a corrupt organization. Mb some guy wanted to get in a lot of money, before the inevitable collapse that was going to happen, we will never know. I don't even know if Kespa was good for sc2, horrendous conditions for the players and an unparalleled strictness. But I admit that I'm just talking out of my arse, because, I honestly don't know anything about it. Were there investigations into who contacted these players and asked them to match fix?, was there investigation into if perhaps the Prime coach, or manager had a deal in this? In any case, it's a good discussion to be had, and the worst part of this all was the erasing of history that happened. Casters not being able to mention his name and the removal of videos, give me a break.. If you really think life only fixed two games you are beyond naive. Gambling addicts don't have the self control to say "I got paid more for fixing one game than winning gsl, I'll just stop there." | ||
|
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On March 26 2024 20:33 Nakajin wrote: Personally, I find it incredibly disrespectful to the viewers and organisers. You basicly trick everyone into thinking the matches are more important than they really are and it encourage players to try less. It may not be straight matchfixing, but it's right on the line. I have no problems with players going to the organisers and advocate for a more evenly split prize pool, but under the table deals are a big no for me. I applaud herO for turning it down at Kato, even though he may regret it for the rest of his life. Every game/ community has different thoughts on this. I've played magic since 1999 and when you factor in the cost of a deck plus travel and entry, you could get top 8 of a 5000 person tournament and lose money. It's good to have a mechanism to fix the payout disparity if everyone remaining agrees. Also these deals aren't under the table. For example, on online poker clients there is often a button to initiate a vote for a prize spli at the final table. If every left agrees the client does the split for you based on chip stacks, blinds etc | ||
|
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
| ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24289 Posts
On March 26 2024 20:33 Nakajin wrote: Personally, I find it incredibly disrespectful to the viewers and organisers. You basicly trick everyone into thinking the matches are more important than they really are and it encourage players to try less. It may not be straight matchfixing, but it's right on the line. I have no problems with players going to the organisers and advocate for a more evenly split prize pool, but under the table deals are a big no for me. I applaud herO for turning it down at Kato, even though he may regret it for the rest of his life. The glory isn’t equal, and that is a huge factor in both player motivation as well as spectator investment. I must say I’m actually not sure how I feel about this one, I think there’s potent arguments on both sides of the aisle. I think I’m far more OK with an arrangement to change a prize pool split than I am with just straight splitting the pot between 8/4/2 or whoever is involved with the deal. ‘Look this Katowice winner-takes-all’ is bullshit, why don’t we agree to our own split?’ is fine by me in a way just splitting a pot equally isn’t. Arbitrary I know I’m also more comfortable of any deals the further out they are from a big tournament that ones made halfway through a weekend or what have you. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24289 Posts
On March 26 2024 20:18 ejozl wrote: Of course you cannot say what the winner is supposed to do with the winnings, but agreeing like this beforehand goes against the entire point of the tournament. And just like how match fixing destroys the integrity of the tournament, so does this, though obviously to a smaller extend. I have a problem with putting all the blame of Kespa's down fall on Life. What Life did was throw game/games in two matches, while he was a minor in Korea (he was 18). It's terrible to throw matches because it damages tournament integrity, as stated, but even could be argued to an extend, because he still won those matches.. So in essence, the problem is that betters got fooled for some games while betting is supposed to be illegal in Korea. This does not mean that he shouldn't be punished, but he's being put as an absolute pariah in this case. That Life should've somehow known that Kespa had renewed a contract and that the scene would fall after this, is so stupid. And even if Life didn't match fix, the same would've happened, because guess what, other players threw games for money. SC2 didn't have problems with match fixing before Kespa, so it could also be that Kespa is just a corrupt organization. Mb some guy wanted to get in a lot of money, before the inevitable collapse that was going to happen, we will never know. I don't even know if Kespa was good for sc2, horrendous conditions for the players and an unparalleled strictness. But I admit that I'm just talking out of my arse, because, I honestly don't know anything about it. Were there investigations into who contacted these players and asked them to match fix?, was there investigation into if perhaps the Prime coach, or manager had a deal in this? In any case, it's a good discussion to be had, and the worst part of this all was the erasing of history that happened. Casters not being able to mention his name and the removal of videos, give me a break.. It’s a great punishment IMO, can’t really think of a better one really. It’s very self-contained to the area in which you did damage. His name is mud in said area, but he’s free to go live his life and do almost anything else so long as it isn’t in StarCraft. I assume and hope so anyway, there are plenty of countries where a criminal record of any kind really holds you back in As (I believe Miz, perhaps another poster) already stated, Kespa literally did educational sessions on getting involved with betting syndicates, I assume based on the damage Savior + others did with their particular match-fixing scandal. He may not have been privy to information like a Kespa renewal being imminent sure, but ‘hey yeah match fixing fucked things up before so don’t do it’ is a pretty simple lesson to take on board for basically anyone. | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On March 26 2024 20:54 Mizenhauer wrote: Every game/ community has different thoughts on this. I've played magic since 1999 and when you factor in the cost of a deck plus travel and entry, you could get top 8 of a 5000 person tournament and lose money. It's good to have a mechanism to fix the payout disparity if everyone remaining agrees. Also these deals aren't under the table. For example, on online poker clients there is often a button to initiate a vote for a prize spli at the final table. If every left agrees the client does the split for you based on chip stacks, blinds etc I don't know enough about magic, but poker is very different since you're playing with your own money, I have no problem with that. With SC2 (or esport in general) players get paid by organizers to produce entertainment, the prize pool is ''just'' a way to attract players and spectators. I wouldn't even be against players coming out saying they will split the prize poll in X or Y way, although I would have a hard time with a pure 50-50 split tbh. But if it was done in SC2, it was never mediatized. I would feel very much cheated as a spectator if I were to learn that for example, the last Katowice prize pool was evened out behind the scenes. | ||
|
stilt
France2743 Posts
On March 25 2024 15:46 jinjin5000 wrote: Think its very fair when the said 18yo led to entire korean pro scene collapsing and hundreds of people losing their jobs overnight Cry me a river, that was 8 years ago, move on. It's ok to worship to death a bunch of young koreans but gathering every years on threads to insult a 17-8yo for a matchfixing when you're around 30-40s is borderline creepy. | ||
|
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On March 27 2024 01:57 Nakajin wrote: I don't know enough about magic, but poker is very different since you're playing with your own money, I have no problem with that. With SC2 (or esport in general) players get paid by organizers to produce entertainment, the prize pool is ''just'' a way to attract players and spectators. I wouldn't even be against players coming out saying they will split the prize poll in X or Y way, although I would have a hard time with a pure 50-50 split tbh. But if it was done in SC2, it was never mediatized. I would feel very much cheated as a spectator if I were to learn that for example, the last Katowice prize pool was evened out behind the scenes. You have to pay entry to play in 99% of Magic tournaments. A very small number (less than 50 a year) are invite only but, even then, it's your responsibility to provide your cards and get yourself to said event. | ||
|
JimmyJRaynor
Canada16608 Posts
On March 26 2024 17:05 WombaT wrote: Make no mistake a big, confirmed match-making scandal would be absolutely devastating to even the English Premier League, or the Champion’s League. Doubtful that it would completely destroy them but there’d be pretty dire consequences. Clubs would very likely go insolvent in the aftermath as many are already flying close to the sun as it is financially and any level of broadcaster/sponsorship pullback would cripple them basically irreparably. Pete Rose's gambling didn't crash MLB. the entire NBA is on HGH. all of MLB is on a cocktail of PEDs that allows pitchers to throw 97+ MPH. We have 240 lb shortstops at 5% body fat. No one cares. The leagues are easily entertaining enough to overcome this stuff. The average life span of an NFL lineman is 55.2 years due to all the PEDs they consume to maintain their crazy high weight. No one cares. A drafted NFL lineman that doesn't make the team lives to 57.5 years old. No one cares. The NFL is a giant marketing machine. And, as I've said before, in Brood War the living conditions were horrible. No one cared. The scene was a lot of fun to watch. EDIT: 1 of the best live event promoters in the history of live events is DOn King.. 2 time murderer. Still to this day Lennox Lewis v. Mike Tyson is the most exciting live event of my life time... and many people who lived where Lennox Lewis grew up feel the same way. Don King knows how to put on a show. If a 17 year old can crash an entire scene. the scene was ready to die. Now, there are things that can kill a competitive live event scene. The confluence of events around Pro Boxing from 1975 to 1985 killed it. That was far far more than a bunch of fixed fights. And as of today... the issue shown below will not cause the NBA to crash. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39808900/nba-eyes-raptors-jontay-porter-betting-issues Its accepted that many playoff runs during Kobe Bryant's prime were heavily influenced by David Stern. Some go as far as to say they were outright fixed. IMO the Kings//Lakers 7 game series, game 6, was fixed for the Lakers to win. No one cares. I don't care. WHen the Raptors went on the 2019 championship run I and many of my friends spent $4,000+ each on tickets; millions turned out for the parade. It was too much fun to worry about a few fixed games during Kobe's prime. oh and, Kobe prolly raped that hotel employee. No one cares. If the audience is having an absolute blast it overcomes all this BS. SC2 just ain't that much fun especially in a live event format. | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On March 27 2024 02:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Pete Rose's gambling didn't crash MLB. the entire NBA is on HGH. all of MLB is on a cocktail of PEDs that allows pitchers to throw 97+ MPH. We have 240 lb shortstops at 5% body fat. No one cares. The leagues are easily entertaining enough to overcome this stuff. The average life span of an NFL lineman is 55.2 years due to all the PEDs they consume to maintain their crazy high weight. No one cares. A drafted NFL lineman that doesn't make the team lives to 57.5 years old. No one cares. The NFL is a giant marketing machine. And, as I've said before, in Brood War the living conditions were horrible. No one cared. The scene was a lot of fun to watch. EDIT: 1 of the best live event promoters in the history of live events is DOn King.. 2 time murderer. Still to this day Lennox Lewis v. Mike Tyson is the most exciting live event of my life time... and many people who lived where Lennox Lewis grew up feel the same way. Don King knows how to put on a show. If a 17 year old can crash an entire scene. the scene was ready to die. Now, there are things that can kill a competitive live event scene. The confluence of events around Pro Boxing from 1975 to 1985 killed it. That was far far more than a bunch of fixed fights. And as of today... the issue shown below will not cause the NBA to crash. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39808900/nba-eyes-raptors-jontay-porter-betting-issues Its accepted that many playoff runs during Kobe Bryant's prime were heavily influenced by David Stern. Some go as far as to say they were outright fixed. IMO the Kings//Lakers 7 game series, game 6, was fixed for the Lakers to win. No one cares. I don't care. WHen the Raptors went on the 2019 championship run I and many of my friends spent $4,000+ each on tickets; millions turned out for the parade. It was too much fun to worry about a few fixed games during Kobe's prime. You are comparing established sports to esports like SC trying to gain competitive legitimacy. It's not equal. | ||
|
JimmyJRaynor
Canada16608 Posts
On March 27 2024 03:08 jinjin5000 wrote: You are comparing established sports to esports like SC trying to gain competitive legitimacy. It's not equal. Brood War had really bad living conditions for its participants. The scene rolled on because the entertainment value was there. Brood WAr live events were far more fun than SC2 live events. Thus, the scene could withstand negativity. I play SC2 off and on and have done so for 14 years. I hardly play Brood War at all. I had much more fun at Brood War Live Events than SC2 live events. For me, its more fun hitting the "Find Match" button in SC2 than in Brood WAr. However, the competitive scenes.. its no contest.. its Brood War all the way. to the Korean promoters of Brood War ... I must say... they know how to put on a show. None of this can be hung on a single 17 year old. The numerous adults in charge of the SC2 competitive scene and live event promotion failed. The numerous adults in charge of the Brood War competitive scene made profits and succeeded. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24289 Posts
On March 27 2024 03:08 jinjin5000 wrote: You are comparing established sports to esports like SC trying to gain competitive legitimacy. It's not equal. I mean it is Jimmy who will squeeze his personal opinion and worldview to fit any scenario regardless of actual facts. Exhibit A - SC2 wasn’t entertaining enough, despite Kespa and the associated sponsors having drafted a renewal of said same scene Also claiming established sports all run sweet despite numerous match fixing scandals being commonplace and folks shrugging it off, despite that demonstrably not being the case. | ||
|
Balnazza
Germany1098 Posts
On March 27 2024 03:08 jinjin5000 wrote: You are comparing established sports to esports like SC trying to gain competitive legitimacy. It's not equal. Dude is stuck on that NBA-argument for...well, forever basically. Bringing in the MLB is a nice touch though. You will however never be able to get it through his head that there *might* be a difference. Also don't bring up the collaps of professional cycling through doping, because he will straight up ignore it and counter with BUT THE NBA!!!!1 | ||
|
Balnazza
Germany1098 Posts
On March 27 2024 01:57 Nakajin wrote: I don't know enough about magic, but poker is very different since you're playing with your own money, I have no problem with that. With SC2 (or esport in general) players get paid by organizers to produce entertainment, the prize pool is ''just'' a way to attract players and spectators. I wouldn't even be against players coming out saying they will split the prize poll in X or Y way, although I would have a hard time with a pure 50-50 split tbh. But if it was done in SC2, it was never mediatized. I would feel very much cheated as a spectator if I were to learn that for example, the last Katowice prize pool was evened out behind the scenes. I think the "behind the scene"-deal is the sketchy part, not that it is done in general. For example, the last offfline NGL One Finals in Warcraft 3 had a prizepool split between the three teams - because all three teams would lose money on the trip anyway and it was confirmed to be the last finals of this league. One team (mTw, who ironically even won the whole thing) actually already announced to disband after the finals. It really was more of a last-hurrah/party than an actual tournament, so no one argued against the split - and of course, it was publicly known beforehand | ||
|
Yoshi Kirishima
United States10313 Posts
On March 27 2024 05:30 Balnazza wrote: I think the "behind the scene"-deal is the sketchy part, not that it is done in general. For example, the last offfline NGL One Finals in Warcraft 3 had a prizepool split between the three teams - because all three teams would lose money on the trip anyway and it was confirmed to be the last finals of this league. One team (mTw, who ironically even won the whole thing) actually already announced to disband after the finals. It really was more of a last-hurrah/party than an actual tournament, so no one argued against the split - and of course, it was publicly known beforehand Yep, agreed. I think a good way to guage whether it's perfectly fine for a prize split to be agreed on for a particular competition, is to ask yourself this: if you made this known publically, would the organizers/spectators be alright with it? For poker, the button to split is built in, it's allowed by organizers and a known part of the game. For Magic, I'm not familiar, but perhaps spectating isn't a big deal for those events or it has been made known publically that players are able to do this, and the community is OK with it. For Starcraft, people expect a genuine competition. Even something like Naniwa doing a terrible strategy like trying to worker rush Nestea was a huge nono. Several players splitting a prize pool is much bigger of an impact than worker rushing 1 player earlier in a tournament that they had a poor chance to win against. In the context of competition, agreeing to split a prizepool beforehand is in the same category of illegitimating the competition, even moreso than matchfixing some games during a BoX series but still winning those matches ultimately. Because then like the whole Top 8 or whatever it was is illegitimate and people are robbed of 16-32 games or whatever of genuine competition vs just a couple. If you are hiding it from the public, then it probably means that it's not fine and that it's unfair to someone. "Selfish" if you will. Meanwhile, giving your fellow competitors more than the agreed split is the opposite of selfish. I'm glad that herO refused to split Kato, and I'm glad that the players at this tourny didn't agree to split more than $3k (or was that $3k for EACH of the other players?). Because that to me would have been a much more serious offense than Life losing a few games but still winning those matches (or most of them since we'll never know), which mainly affects betters which is illegal anyways (aside from the reputation too of course). But because matchfixing happened in a league run by a body as serious and professional as Kespa, in a televised league, it was taken super seriously. If Kespa ran Kato and herO agreed to split under the table, it would have probably been treated super seriously similar to matchfixing. It's not exactly the same as directly throwing games, but it means both players aren't playing with the stakes they agreed to play under, and the results and entertainment value will be affected. | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
you guys are ridiculous | ||
|
jy_9876543210
265 Posts
On March 27 2024 15:53 jinjin5000 wrote: how is splitting prize with friends comaprable to matchfixing? It's just to even pay parity out or just straight up treating people to good dinner you guys are ridiculous Good point. Next time, tournament organizers should split the prize pool to qualified players (whatever the number is) evenly, so that they don't have to figure out how to split it themselves. I wonder if that would have any impact on the viewers count. | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On March 27 2024 16:04 jy_9876543210 wrote: Good point. Next time, tournament organizers should split the prize pool to qualified players (whatever the number is) evenly, so that they don't have to figure out how to split it themselves. I wonder if that would have any impact on the viewers count. k, reynor treated everyone to few shots and that was fair chunk of his winnings. That's going to hurt results for sure that $5000 8 way split for dinners si pretty mcuh matchfixing for sure!!! | ||
|
Akio
Finland1838 Posts
| ||
|
jy_9876543210
265 Posts
On March 27 2024 16:08 jinjin5000 wrote: k, reynor treated everyone to few shots and that was fair chunk of his winnings. That's going to hurt results for sure that $5000 8 way split for dinners si pretty mcuh matchfixing for sure!!! Did they know, or expect, that Reynor was going to share that with them before the games? If not, it's irrelevant, stop mentioning it. If so, is that a tradition of SC2 tournaments? To share your prize with your opponents, and all players agree on that? If so, then this is indeed terrible. | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On March 27 2024 17:34 jy_9876543210 wrote: Did they know, or expect, that Reynor was going to share that with them before the games? If not, it's irrelevant, stop mentioning it. If so, is that a tradition of SC2 tournaments? To share your prize with your opponents, and all players agree on that? If so, then this is indeed terrible. yea group of friends agree that winner treat others to dinner/show before is same scale as matchfixing completely ridiculous statements and deluded from here. people somehow equating getting the winner friend to treating everyone for the day at hang out at afterparty/event is somehow worse than matchfixing is completely out of depth and honestly baffled by how you can even go to that conclusion. As for the IEM event, Oz figured that there was maybe an agreement involved before to split since all or nothing was way too take all or leave it but there wasn't anything like that since both players were 100% confident in their ability to win. | ||
|
jy_9876543210
265 Posts
On March 27 2024 17:40 jinjin5000 wrote: yea group of friends agree that winner treat others to dinner/show before is same scale as matchfixing completely ridiculous statements and deluded from here. people somehow equating getting the winner friend to treating everyone for the day at hang out at afterparty/event is somehow worse than matchfixing is completely out of depth and honestly baffled by how you can even go to that conclusion. As for the IEM event, Oz figured that there was maybe an agreement involved before to split since all or nothing was way too take all or leave it but there wasn't anything like that since both players were 100% confident in their ability to win. Whatever. It just means there's no need to take tournaments too seriously. It's a show after all. Fixed or not - does it matter if you don't know? As long as you believe that they're trying their best, what's the difference? | ||
|
geokilla
Canada8224 Posts
Match fixing and betting will always be part of sports whether you like it or not. You guys need to accept it. A sport isn't going to die unless it wasn't successful to begin with. In my opinion, SC2 has been very successful and the fact we still have tournaments today, however small they are compared to 5 or 10 years ago, we should be happy the game is still around and we have players competing at such a high level. | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On March 28 2024 12:33 geokilla wrote: I find it amusing people on this board are saying we can't compare match fixing in SC2 (or e-sports) to match fixing in real sports (like NBA). We have teams, like my Toronto Raptors, playing to lose. We have players literally betting on games and giving betting tips online. Players intentionally playing like crap and then suddenly playing amazing once they're on a new team. NBA actively promoting sports betting throughout the match. Heck the NBA was investigated by the FBI for match fixing and the investigation fell through because the Commissioner caught wind of the investigation and took matters into his own hands. The goal posts just keeps on moving with you guys here. Match fixing and betting will always be part of sports whether you like it or not. You guys need to accept it. A sport isn't going to die unless it wasn't successful to begin with. In my opinion, SC2 has been very successful and the fact we still have tournaments today, however small they are compared to 5 or 10 years ago, we should be happy the game is still around and we have players competing at such a high level. Leagues like NBA and other traditional sports are already well established while esports like StarCraft are relatively new and niche that is trying to gain its legitimacy through multiple obstacles (see: boxer needing to justify why gaming isn't evil to the public live on national morning TV show in early 2000s). that ones eng subbed And just after it shook off those allegations from people trying to lower its legitimacy and all the people worked to lay the groundwork, it gets hit with huge matchfixing/gambling scandal that's universally looked down upon and completely smashed the foundations? You are not comparing the same thing here without any regards to the context. and people are comparing this to group of friends who all knew each other and agreeing the winner treats others to dinner/afterparty. Or case like in IEM where it was all-or-nothing (where it was just Oz thinking it might be something liek that, not that it happened as both sides were 100% confident in their ability). They didn't agree for split to be even or anything, they won, winner treated their buddies and friends and all hung out in party together after. Absolute insanity here. | ||
| ||
