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On June 11 2024 15:06 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD It's almost as if different people can have different opinions on the same subjective topic. ESL going out of their way to push their opinion doesn't make it anymore fact than if I were to pick a name out of a hat.
We're having a "goat" conversation here; that's not about opinions? What you talking bout? If it was then this post would be called; who do you think is the greatest! And not "who is the goat" these are VERY different conversations.
If we're talking goat then Serral is hands down so much better than Maru overal this topic is nothing but a fan of Maru trolling the community with his silly wishes and has very little to do with a "goat" conversation.
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Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On July 20 2024 21:39 Furaijin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 15:06 MJG wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD It's almost as if different people can have different opinions on the same subjective topic. ESL going out of their way to push their opinion doesn't make it anymore fact than if I were to pick a name out of a hat. We're having a "goat" conversation here; that's not about opinions? What you talking bout? If it was then this post would be called; who do you think is the greatest! And not "who is the goat" these are VERY different conversations. If we're talking goat then Serral is hands down so much better than Maru overal this topic is nothing but a fan of Maru trolling the community with his silly wishes and has very little to do with a "goat" conversation.
But this post does? :S
Serral gets my vote but it’s a tight one and not an overwhelmingly dominant claim
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On July 20 2024 21:39 Furaijin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 15:06 MJG wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD It's almost as if different people can have different opinions on the same subjective topic. ESL going out of their way to push their opinion doesn't make it anymore fact than if I were to pick a name out of a hat. We're having a "goat" conversation here; that's not about opinions? What you talking bout? If it was then this post would be called; who do you think is the greatest! And not "who is the goat" these are VERY different conversations. If we're talking goat then Serral is hands down so much better than Maru overal this topic is nothing but a fan of Maru trolling the community with his silly wishes and has very little to do with a "goat" conversation.
Of course it's an opinion - if the debate wasn't opinion driven then we'd already have an absolute answer...
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United States1906 Posts
On July 22 2024 15:35 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2024 21:39 Furaijin wrote:On June 11 2024 15:06 MJG wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD It's almost as if different people can have different opinions on the same subjective topic. ESL going out of their way to push their opinion doesn't make it anymore fact than if I were to pick a name out of a hat. We're having a "goat" conversation here; that's not about opinions? What you talking bout? If it was then this post would be called; who do you think is the greatest! And not "who is the goat" these are VERY different conversations. If we're talking goat then Serral is hands down so much better than Maru overal this topic is nothing but a fan of Maru trolling the community with his silly wishes and has very little to do with a "goat" conversation. Of course it's an opinion - if the debate wasn't opinion driven then we'd already have an absolute answer...
The answer is that Serral is "better" than Maru, but there's a strong case to be made that Maru is "greater" because he's spent more than a decade as a top tier player in basically every metric (what you think of everything beyond the comma varies depending on your evaluation process).
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France12906 Posts
On July 23 2024 00:35 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2024 15:35 MJG wrote:On July 20 2024 21:39 Furaijin wrote:On June 11 2024 15:06 MJG wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD It's almost as if different people can have different opinions on the same subjective topic. ESL going out of their way to push their opinion doesn't make it anymore fact than if I were to pick a name out of a hat. We're having a "goat" conversation here; that's not about opinions? What you talking bout? If it was then this post would be called; who do you think is the greatest! And not "who is the goat" these are VERY different conversations. If we're talking goat then Serral is hands down so much better than Maru overal this topic is nothing but a fan of Maru trolling the community with his silly wishes and has very little to do with a "goat" conversation. Of course it's an opinion - if the debate wasn't opinion driven then we'd already have an absolute answer... The answer is that Serral is "better" than Maru, but there's a strong case to be made that Maru is "greater" because he's spent more than a decade as a top tier player in basically every metric (what you think of everything beyond the comma varies depending on your evaluation process).
I think I agree with that overall, and the " " % can vary a bit
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On July 23 2024 00:35 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2024 15:35 MJG wrote:On July 20 2024 21:39 Furaijin wrote:On June 11 2024 15:06 MJG wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD It's almost as if different people can have different opinions on the same subjective topic. ESL going out of their way to push their opinion doesn't make it anymore fact than if I were to pick a name out of a hat. We're having a "goat" conversation here; that's not about opinions? What you talking bout? If it was then this post would be called; who do you think is the greatest! And not "who is the goat" these are VERY different conversations. If we're talking goat then Serral is hands down so much better than Maru overal this topic is nothing but a fan of Maru trolling the community with his silly wishes and has very little to do with a "goat" conversation. Of course it's an opinion - if the debate wasn't opinion driven then we'd already have an absolute answer... The answer is that Serral is "better" than Maru, but there's a strong case to be made that Maru is "greater" because he's spent more than a decade as a top tier player in basically every metric (what you think of everything beyond the comma varies depending on your evaluation process).
So if Serral is "better" than Maru and Maru is "greater" because of him playing for over a decade at top tier level... what about a time when Serral has a decade under his belt too and Maru would not have been hindered by military service at this point? Does Maru still trump him or does Maru's supposed "greater"-ness diminish as the longer these two play, the less it will be relevant in relation (assuming the rest of the statistics stay more or less the same)?
Meaning 11vs7 is probably worth more than 14vs10 or 24vs20, right?
Btw, I added Mvp's statistics in an answer to you in the GOAT thread.
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On July 23 2024 04:34 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2024 00:35 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 22 2024 15:35 MJG wrote:On July 20 2024 21:39 Furaijin wrote:On June 11 2024 15:06 MJG wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD It's almost as if different people can have different opinions on the same subjective topic. ESL going out of their way to push their opinion doesn't make it anymore fact than if I were to pick a name out of a hat. We're having a "goat" conversation here; that's not about opinions? What you talking bout? If it was then this post would be called; who do you think is the greatest! And not "who is the goat" these are VERY different conversations. If we're talking goat then Serral is hands down so much better than Maru overal this topic is nothing but a fan of Maru trolling the community with his silly wishes and has very little to do with a "goat" conversation. Of course it's an opinion - if the debate wasn't opinion driven then we'd already have an absolute answer... The answer is that Serral is "better" than Maru, but there's a strong case to be made that Maru is "greater" because he's spent more than a decade as a top tier player in basically every metric (what you think of everything beyond the comma varies depending on your evaluation process). So if Serral is "better" than Maru and Maru is "greater" because of him playing for over a decade at top tier level... what about a time when Serral has a decade under his belt too and Maru would not have been hindered by military service at this point? Does Maru still trump him or does Maru's supposed "greater"-ness diminish as the longer these two play, the less it will be relevant in relation (assuming the rest of the statistics stay more or less the same)? Meaning 11vs7 is probably worth more than 14vs10 or 24vs20, right? Btw, I added Mvp's statistics in an answer to you in the GOAT thread.
Thing is Maru has been a top player since WOL and been through SC2's peak and all it's iterations.
Serral is amazing, but his peak has been at a time when SC2 has been greatly diminished (the pro scene).
Also since LOTV, zerg has been overtuned (maybe not currently) but for most of LOTV.
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On July 23 2024 05:28 allmotor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2024 04:34 PremoBeats wrote:On July 23 2024 00:35 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 22 2024 15:35 MJG wrote:On July 20 2024 21:39 Furaijin wrote:On June 11 2024 15:06 MJG wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD It's almost as if different people can have different opinions on the same subjective topic. ESL going out of their way to push their opinion doesn't make it anymore fact than if I were to pick a name out of a hat. We're having a "goat" conversation here; that's not about opinions? What you talking bout? If it was then this post would be called; who do you think is the greatest! And not "who is the goat" these are VERY different conversations. If we're talking goat then Serral is hands down so much better than Maru overal this topic is nothing but a fan of Maru trolling the community with his silly wishes and has very little to do with a "goat" conversation. Of course it's an opinion - if the debate wasn't opinion driven then we'd already have an absolute answer... The answer is that Serral is "better" than Maru, but there's a strong case to be made that Maru is "greater" because he's spent more than a decade as a top tier player in basically every metric (what you think of everything beyond the comma varies depending on your evaluation process). So if Serral is "better" than Maru and Maru is "greater" because of him playing for over a decade at top tier level... what about a time when Serral has a decade under his belt too and Maru would not have been hindered by military service at this point? Does Maru still trump him or does Maru's supposed "greater"-ness diminish as the longer these two play, the less it will be relevant in relation (assuming the rest of the statistics stay more or less the same)? Meaning 11vs7 is probably worth more than 14vs10 or 24vs20, right? Btw, I added Mvp's statistics in an answer to you in the GOAT thread. Thing is Maru has been a top player since WOL and been through SC2's peak and all it's iterations. Serral is amazing, but his peak has been at a time when SC2 has been greatly diminished (the pro scene). Also since LOTV, zerg has been overtuned (maybe not currently) but for most of LOTV.
Maru was definitely not a top player in WoL. He was a bottom tier GSL player, and didn't become a good (above-average) KR Terran until HotS. He had no results in WoL at all.
Maru was a high tier, maybe bottom of top tier player in HotS by the end of HotS.
Then he didn't become top tier until 2018 when he had his insane 4x GSL win streak.
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On July 23 2024 05:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2024 05:28 allmotor1 wrote:On July 23 2024 04:34 PremoBeats wrote:On July 23 2024 00:35 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 22 2024 15:35 MJG wrote:On July 20 2024 21:39 Furaijin wrote:On June 11 2024 15:06 MJG wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD It's almost as if different people can have different opinions on the same subjective topic. ESL going out of their way to push their opinion doesn't make it anymore fact than if I were to pick a name out of a hat. We're having a "goat" conversation here; that's not about opinions? What you talking bout? If it was then this post would be called; who do you think is the greatest! And not "who is the goat" these are VERY different conversations. If we're talking goat then Serral is hands down so much better than Maru overal this topic is nothing but a fan of Maru trolling the community with his silly wishes and has very little to do with a "goat" conversation. Of course it's an opinion - if the debate wasn't opinion driven then we'd already have an absolute answer... The answer is that Serral is "better" than Maru, but there's a strong case to be made that Maru is "greater" because he's spent more than a decade as a top tier player in basically every metric (what you think of everything beyond the comma varies depending on your evaluation process). So if Serral is "better" than Maru and Maru is "greater" because of him playing for over a decade at top tier level... what about a time when Serral has a decade under his belt too and Maru would not have been hindered by military service at this point? Does Maru still trump him or does Maru's supposed "greater"-ness diminish as the longer these two play, the less it will be relevant in relation (assuming the rest of the statistics stay more or less the same)? Meaning 11vs7 is probably worth more than 14vs10 or 24vs20, right? Btw, I added Mvp's statistics in an answer to you in the GOAT thread. Thing is Maru has been a top player since WOL and been through SC2's peak and all it's iterations. Serral is amazing, but his peak has been at a time when SC2 has been greatly diminished (the pro scene). Also since LOTV, zerg has been overtuned (maybe not currently) but for most of LOTV. Maru was definitely not a top player in WoL. He was a bottom tier GSL player, and didn't become a good (above-average) KR Terran until HotS. He had no results in WoL at all.
It's been a long time, but I believe Maru made it to Code S in Wings. So yea I consider him a top player back then. Maybe not the absolute elite, but a top player.
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On July 23 2024 06:02 allmotor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2024 05:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 23 2024 05:28 allmotor1 wrote:On July 23 2024 04:34 PremoBeats wrote:On July 23 2024 00:35 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 22 2024 15:35 MJG wrote:On July 20 2024 21:39 Furaijin wrote:On June 11 2024 15:06 MJG wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD It's almost as if different people can have different opinions on the same subjective topic. ESL going out of their way to push their opinion doesn't make it anymore fact than if I were to pick a name out of a hat. We're having a "goat" conversation here; that's not about opinions? What you talking bout? If it was then this post would be called; who do you think is the greatest! And not "who is the goat" these are VERY different conversations. If we're talking goat then Serral is hands down so much better than Maru overal this topic is nothing but a fan of Maru trolling the community with his silly wishes and has very little to do with a "goat" conversation. Of course it's an opinion - if the debate wasn't opinion driven then we'd already have an absolute answer... The answer is that Serral is "better" than Maru, but there's a strong case to be made that Maru is "greater" because he's spent more than a decade as a top tier player in basically every metric (what you think of everything beyond the comma varies depending on your evaluation process). So if Serral is "better" than Maru and Maru is "greater" because of him playing for over a decade at top tier level... what about a time when Serral has a decade under his belt too and Maru would not have been hindered by military service at this point? Does Maru still trump him or does Maru's supposed "greater"-ness diminish as the longer these two play, the less it will be relevant in relation (assuming the rest of the statistics stay more or less the same)? Meaning 11vs7 is probably worth more than 14vs10 or 24vs20, right? Btw, I added Mvp's statistics in an answer to you in the GOAT thread. Thing is Maru has been a top player since WOL and been through SC2's peak and all it's iterations. Serral is amazing, but his peak has been at a time when SC2 has been greatly diminished (the pro scene). Also since LOTV, zerg has been overtuned (maybe not currently) but for most of LOTV. Maru was definitely not a top player in WoL. He was a bottom tier GSL player, and didn't become a good (above-average) KR Terran until HotS. He had no results in WoL at all. It's been a long time, but I believe Maru made it to Code S in Wings. So yea I consider him a top player back then. Maybe not the absolute elite, but a top player.
Looking at liquipedia, it seems he made Code S 2 times in WoL's 2.5 year lifespan (or 3 if you count the very first open season). His highest placement was 9th-12th.
But most other seasons he was in Code A, and would place as low as 41st-64th in Code A.
Maru's peak was in 2018 when he won 4 GSLs in a row, which was insane. But this was also the year of Serral's emergence and his first notable peak too.
Maru was definitely in the top tier towards the end of HotS though, so he is able to say he started being a top competitor a few years earlier than Serral. But he still wasn't top top as in like #1 or manage to dominate the scene until 2018.
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France12906 Posts
On July 23 2024 04:34 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2024 00:35 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 22 2024 15:35 MJG wrote:On July 20 2024 21:39 Furaijin wrote:On June 11 2024 15:06 MJG wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD It's almost as if different people can have different opinions on the same subjective topic. ESL going out of their way to push their opinion doesn't make it anymore fact than if I were to pick a name out of a hat. We're having a "goat" conversation here; that's not about opinions? What you talking bout? If it was then this post would be called; who do you think is the greatest! And not "who is the goat" these are VERY different conversations. If we're talking goat then Serral is hands down so much better than Maru overal this topic is nothing but a fan of Maru trolling the community with his silly wishes and has very little to do with a "goat" conversation. Of course it's an opinion - if the debate wasn't opinion driven then we'd already have an absolute answer... The answer is that Serral is "better" than Maru, but there's a strong case to be made that Maru is "greater" because he's spent more than a decade as a top tier player in basically every metric (what you think of everything beyond the comma varies depending on your evaluation process). So if Serral is "better" than Maru and Maru is "greater" because of him playing for over a decade at top tier level... what about a time when Serral has a decade under his belt too and Maru would not have been hindered by military service at this point? Does Maru still trump him or does Maru's supposed "greater"-ness diminish as the longer these two play, the less it will be relevant in relation (assuming the rest of the statistics stay more or less the same)? Meaning 11vs7 is probably worth more than 14vs10 or 24vs20, right? Btw, I added Mvp's statistics in an answer to you in the GOAT thread.
I mean Saudis won't fund sc2 forever, other RTS will probably manage to blow up and Serral & Maru will move on with their life
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On July 23 2024 04:34 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2024 00:35 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 22 2024 15:35 MJG wrote:On July 20 2024 21:39 Furaijin wrote:On June 11 2024 15:06 MJG wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD It's almost as if different people can have different opinions on the same subjective topic. ESL going out of their way to push their opinion doesn't make it anymore fact than if I were to pick a name out of a hat. We're having a "goat" conversation here; that's not about opinions? What you talking bout? If it was then this post would be called; who do you think is the greatest! And not "who is the goat" these are VERY different conversations. If we're talking goat then Serral is hands down so much better than Maru overal this topic is nothing but a fan of Maru trolling the community with his silly wishes and has very little to do with a "goat" conversation. Of course it's an opinion - if the debate wasn't opinion driven then we'd already have an absolute answer... The answer is that Serral is "better" than Maru, but there's a strong case to be made that Maru is "greater" because he's spent more than a decade as a top tier player in basically every metric (what you think of everything beyond the comma varies depending on your evaluation process). So if Serral is "better" than Maru and Maru is "greater" because of him playing for over a decade at top tier level... what about a time when Serral has a decade under his belt too and Maru would not have been hindered by military service at this point? Does Maru still trump him or does Maru's supposed "greater"-ness diminish as the longer these two play, the less it will be relevant in relation (assuming the rest of the statistics stay more or less the same)? Meaning 11vs7 is probably worth more than 14vs10 or 24vs20, right? Btw, I added Mvp's statistics in an answer to you in the GOAT thread.
Listen to the interview Starcraft Historian did with uThermal to understand why all decades are not created equal. Winning an OSL in 2013 with literally hundreds of pros competing is not the same thing as winning a DH in 2024 with a rotating constellation of the same few dozen players competing, some of whom aren't even the best players in the world (due to regional allotments).
You have the logic backwards. As more and more top-level pros retire and fewer and fewer young talents enter the game, the less relevant modern periods of domination are for becoming GOAT'ed and the more relevant results of the most competitive era become. The easiest way to understand this is to imagine a future of SCII where it's like a couple dozen players playing in TL StarLeague, Homestory Cup, StarsWar, etc. and Clem literally wins every tournament for a decade. If you think Clem being the GOAT in that circumstance doesn't feel right to you, think about why, and you'll be closer to having a more common sense understanding of what a GOAT is.
This doesn't mean Serral could never be the GOAT, but it does mean that for him to be your GOAT you probably need to place more value on things like consistency, level of dominance, prize winnings, and head-to-head scores than on results in the most competitive era of SCII because quite simply Serral has no such results. By contrast, if results in the most competitive era of SCII is literally the only thing you care about, probably Mvp is your guy (or maybe the other guy who I don't care to mention).
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On July 23 2024 09:46 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2024 04:34 PremoBeats wrote:On July 23 2024 00:35 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 22 2024 15:35 MJG wrote:On July 20 2024 21:39 Furaijin wrote:On June 11 2024 15:06 MJG wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD It's almost as if different people can have different opinions on the same subjective topic. ESL going out of their way to push their opinion doesn't make it anymore fact than if I were to pick a name out of a hat. We're having a "goat" conversation here; that's not about opinions? What you talking bout? If it was then this post would be called; who do you think is the greatest! And not "who is the goat" these are VERY different conversations. If we're talking goat then Serral is hands down so much better than Maru overal this topic is nothing but a fan of Maru trolling the community with his silly wishes and has very little to do with a "goat" conversation. Of course it's an opinion - if the debate wasn't opinion driven then we'd already have an absolute answer... The answer is that Serral is "better" than Maru, but there's a strong case to be made that Maru is "greater" because he's spent more than a decade as a top tier player in basically every metric (what you think of everything beyond the comma varies depending on your evaluation process). So if Serral is "better" than Maru and Maru is "greater" because of him playing for over a decade at top tier level... what about a time when Serral has a decade under his belt too and Maru would not have been hindered by military service at this point? Does Maru still trump him or does Maru's supposed "greater"-ness diminish as the longer these two play, the less it will be relevant in relation (assuming the rest of the statistics stay more or less the same)? Meaning 11vs7 is probably worth more than 14vs10 or 24vs20, right? Btw, I added Mvp's statistics in an answer to you in the GOAT thread. Listen to the interview Starcraft Historian did with uThermal to understand why all decades are not created equal. Winning an OSL in 2013 with literally hundreds of pros competing is not the same thing as winning a DH in 2024 with a rotating constellation of the same few dozen players competing, some of whom aren't even the best players in the world (due to regional allotments). You have the logic backwards. As more and more top-level pros retire and fewer and fewer young talents enter the game, the less relevant modern periods of domination are for becoming GOAT'ed and the more relevant results of the most competitive era become. The easiest way to understand this is to imagine a future of SCII where it's like a couple dozen players playing in TL StarLeague, Homestory Cup, StarsWar, etc. and Clem literally wins every tournament for a decade. If you think Clem being the GOAT in that circumstance doesn't feel right to you, think about why, and you'll be closer to having a more common sense understanding of what a GOAT is. This doesn't mean Serral could never be the GOAT, but it does mean that for him to be your GOAT you probably need to place more value on things like consistency, level of dominance, peer opinions, prize winnings, and head-to-head scores than on results in the most competitive era of SCII because quite simply Serral has no such results. By contrast, if results in the most competitive era of SCII is literally the only thing you care about, probably Mvp is your guy (or maybe the other guy who I don't care to mention).
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On July 23 2024 09:46 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2024 04:34 PremoBeats wrote:On July 23 2024 00:35 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 22 2024 15:35 MJG wrote:On July 20 2024 21:39 Furaijin wrote:On June 11 2024 15:06 MJG wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD It's almost as if different people can have different opinions on the same subjective topic. ESL going out of their way to push their opinion doesn't make it anymore fact than if I were to pick a name out of a hat. We're having a "goat" conversation here; that's not about opinions? What you talking bout? If it was then this post would be called; who do you think is the greatest! And not "who is the goat" these are VERY different conversations. If we're talking goat then Serral is hands down so much better than Maru overal this topic is nothing but a fan of Maru trolling the community with his silly wishes and has very little to do with a "goat" conversation. Of course it's an opinion - if the debate wasn't opinion driven then we'd already have an absolute answer... The answer is that Serral is "better" than Maru, but there's a strong case to be made that Maru is "greater" because he's spent more than a decade as a top tier player in basically every metric (what you think of everything beyond the comma varies depending on your evaluation process). So if Serral is "better" than Maru and Maru is "greater" because of him playing for over a decade at top tier level... what about a time when Serral has a decade under his belt too and Maru would not have been hindered by military service at this point? Does Maru still trump him or does Maru's supposed "greater"-ness diminish as the longer these two play, the less it will be relevant in relation (assuming the rest of the statistics stay more or less the same)? Meaning 11vs7 is probably worth more than 14vs10 or 24vs20, right? Btw, I added Mvp's statistics in an answer to you in the GOAT thread. Listen to the interview Starcraft Historian did with uThermal to understand why all decades are not created equal. Winning an OSL in 2013 with literally hundreds of pros competing is not the same thing as winning a DH in 2024 with a rotating constellation of the same few dozen players competing, some of whom aren't even the best players in the world (due to regional allotments). You have the logic backwards. As more and more top-level pros retire and fewer and fewer young talents enter the game, the less relevant modern periods of domination are for becoming GOAT'ed and the more relevant results of the most competitive era become. The easiest way to understand this is to imagine a future of SCII where it's like a couple dozen players playing in TL StarLeague, Homestory Cup, StarsWar, etc. and Clem literally wins every tournament for a decade. If you think Clem being the GOAT in that circumstance doesn't feel right to you, think about why, and you'll be closer to having a more common sense understanding of what a GOAT is. This doesn't mean Serral could never be the GOAT, but it does mean that for him to be your GOAT you probably need to place more value on things like consistency, level of dominance, prize winnings, and head-to-head scores than on results in the most competitive era of SCII because quite simply Serral has no such results. By contrast, if results in the most competitive era of SCII is literally the only thing you care about, probably Mvp is your guy (or maybe the other guy who I don't care to mention).
Great post. Only problem here is that this all is pretty much applicable to Maru too, and if we really count his efforts and achievements during that now near-mythical era (that Serral lacks), then we can point more deserving guy(s) for the GOAT than Maru (again, applying same criteria).
Thinking Maru as The Goat in these circumstances doesn't feel right. Mvp lacks too much to be really considered. 
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On July 23 2024 05:28 allmotor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2024 04:34 PremoBeats wrote:On July 23 2024 00:35 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 22 2024 15:35 MJG wrote:On July 20 2024 21:39 Furaijin wrote:On June 11 2024 15:06 MJG wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD It's almost as if different people can have different opinions on the same subjective topic. ESL going out of their way to push their opinion doesn't make it anymore fact than if I were to pick a name out of a hat. We're having a "goat" conversation here; that's not about opinions? What you talking bout? If it was then this post would be called; who do you think is the greatest! And not "who is the goat" these are VERY different conversations. If we're talking goat then Serral is hands down so much better than Maru overal this topic is nothing but a fan of Maru trolling the community with his silly wishes and has very little to do with a "goat" conversation. Of course it's an opinion - if the debate wasn't opinion driven then we'd already have an absolute answer... The answer is that Serral is "better" than Maru, but there's a strong case to be made that Maru is "greater" because he's spent more than a decade as a top tier player in basically every metric (what you think of everything beyond the comma varies depending on your evaluation process). So if Serral is "better" than Maru and Maru is "greater" because of him playing for over a decade at top tier level... what about a time when Serral has a decade under his belt too and Maru would not have been hindered by military service at this point? Does Maru still trump him or does Maru's supposed "greater"-ness diminish as the longer these two play, the less it will be relevant in relation (assuming the rest of the statistics stay more or less the same)? Meaning 11vs7 is probably worth more than 14vs10 or 24vs20, right? Btw, I added Mvp's statistics in an answer to you in the GOAT thread. Thing is Maru has been a top player since WOL and been through SC2's peak and all it's iterations. Serral is amazing, but his peak has been at a time when SC2 has been greatly diminished (the pro scene). Also since LOTV, zerg has been overtuned (maybe not currently) but for most of LOTV.
Even if we assume that Maru was a top player since WoL (where I think many people suffer from nostalgia bias, if we look at his actual achievements in that period), my point is, that there must be a time, when the argument of him being at the top for longer falls short, assuming he ALWAYS trails behind Serral in comparison.
Especially considering that Serral stomped onto the scene in 2018 with no support of a multi million dollar industry behind him or living in team houses since he was 13.
My question is: When is that point? Will it never be reached as Korean elitists simply value 2015 so much more? Even if in a direct comparison Maru clearly is worse than Serral?
I mean that is fine by me... I simply want people to show their true colors.
rwala
You have the logic backwards. As more and more top-level pros retire and fewer and fewer young talents enter the game, the less relevant modern periods of domination are for becoming GOAT'ed and the more relevant results of the most competitive era become. The easiest way to understand this is to imagine a future of SCII where it's like a couple dozen players playing in TL StarLeague, Homestory Cup, StarsWar, etc. and Clem literally wins every tournament for a decade. If you think Clem being the GOAT in that circumstance doesn't feel right to you, think about why, and you'll be closer to having a more common sense understanding of what a GOAT is.
This doesn't mean Serral could never be the GOAT, but it does mean that for him to be your GOAT you probably need to place more value on things like consistency, level of dominance, prize winnings, and head-to-head scores than on results in the most competitive era of SCII because quite simply Serral has no such results. By contrast, if results in the most competitive era of SCII is literally the only thing you care about, probably Mvp is your guy (or maybe the other guy who I don't care to mention).
Did you read my GOAT article? I accounted for all of that with heavy penalties on Serral who still came out on top by far.
Plus, Maru never DOMINATED 2015 either. He was a good player; a wild card at winning.
All you said applies to Maru too, as his dominance (mostly behind Serral) started in 2018 as well.
Disagree on Mvp: He only had one hyper successful year, when SC2 was still being figured out. He has win rates of less than 50% or 40% in 2012 and 2013. Someone who is so inconsistent can't be GOAT, even subjectively. His hyper successful year was 2011 where the pro scene wasn't even properly established yet. Peak SC2 according to numbers of players, pros and competitiveness is 2013-2015/2016.
A lot of the players of that era transitioned into the period of Maru's and Serral's rise though. I am currently working on an era-comparison how these 2015-players fared versus other 2015-players in 2015 and 2018 and their results versus the new talent. This analysis will give us a better understanding what the penalty in comparing these era for post-2018 results should be. And I highly doubt that the 50% penalty I used in my analysis is even remotely fair towards post-2018. But we will see...
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France12906 Posts
You are thinking way too much of statistics and greatness isn't about statistics but about inspiring people
Zerg wasn't in need of inspiration in LotV
Protoss and terrans were
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On July 23 2024 18:05 Poopi wrote:
You are thinking way too much of statistics and greatness isn't about statistics but about inspiring people
Zerg wasn't in need of inspiration in LotV
Protoss and terrans were
I think it is more like that people who are not pleased with statistics are trying to make unreasonable arguments. Everyone who is pro Maru, Rogue or Mvp is listing their amazing statistics. Everyone does it. They only become irrelevant when Serral is thrown in it seems.
And if you think that Serral isn't an inspiration to people, then you should read some YT comments.
Here is a definition of Meryam Webster what it means to be great:
"to do (something) very well"
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France12906 Posts
On July 23 2024 18:15 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2024 18:05 Poopi wrote:
You are thinking way too much of statistics and greatness isn't about statistics but about inspiring people
Zerg wasn't in need of inspiration in LotV
Protoss and terrans were I think it is more like that people who are not pleased with statistics are trying to make unreasonable arguments. Everyone who is pro Maru, Rogue or Mvp is listing their amazing statistics. Everyone does it. They only become irrelevant when Serral is thrown in it seems. And if you think that Serral isn't an inspiration to people, then you should read some YT comments. Here is a definition of Meryam Webster what it means to be great: "to do (something) very well"
I did not say Serral isn't an inspiration to people, he is an inspiration to me at least, like Maru and several other players
It's just that you won't ever be able to "prove" who the GOAT of sc2 is. Repeating / trying to convince or persuade people ad nauseam of something just won't work. It's fine. It's still interesting and fun work to do. But don't expect to be able to "prove" that Serral is the GOAT
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On July 23 2024 18:31 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2024 18:15 PremoBeats wrote:On July 23 2024 18:05 Poopi wrote:
You are thinking way too much of statistics and greatness isn't about statistics but about inspiring people
Zerg wasn't in need of inspiration in LotV
Protoss and terrans were I think it is more like that people who are not pleased with statistics are trying to make unreasonable arguments. Everyone who is pro Maru, Rogue or Mvp is listing their amazing statistics. Everyone does it. They only become irrelevant when Serral is thrown in it seems. And if you think that Serral isn't an inspiration to people, then you should read some YT comments. Here is a definition of Meryam Webster what it means to be great: "to do (something) very well" I did not say Serral isn't an inspiration to people, he is an inspiration to me at least, like Maru and several other players It's just that you won't ever be able to "prove" who the GOAT of sc2 is. Repeating / trying to convince or persuade people ad nauseam of something just won't work. It's fine. It's still interesting and fun work to do. But don't expect to be able to "prove" that Serral is the GOAT
People so far only used subjective opinions for the most part, so I don't understand why it would be an ad nauseam to rely on measurable facts to make the claim... the same way I am putting numbers on the 2015 era atm. One can measure how competitive it is to the transition and post-2018.
There are simply many arguments and counterarguments flying around that are utterly subjective and rely on heavy biases.
Not being able to prove something is only a possibility when lacking data or non significant differences are established between the data (not entirely correct, as that would prove that there is no GOAT in this discussion).
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On July 23 2024 18:15 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2024 18:05 Poopi wrote:
You are thinking way too much of statistics and greatness isn't about statistics but about inspiring people
Zerg wasn't in need of inspiration in LotV
Protoss and terrans were I think it is more like that people who are not pleased with statistics are trying to make unreasonable arguments. Everyone who is pro Maru, Rogue or Mvp is listing their amazing statistics. Everyone does it. They only become irrelevant when Serral is thrown in it seems. And if you think that Serral isn't an inspiration to people, then you should read some YT comments. Here is a definition of Meryam Webster what it means to be great: "to do (something) very well"
To be fair, if Serral was around since WOL and was a competitive player all throughout sc2's history, you wouldn't be downplaying his longevity like you seem to be doing to Maru's longevity. There's not many players who have been around as long as Maru and are still after all this time a top competitor.
Serral is truly a phenom no doubt, however I'm sorry, but since LOTV, zerg has been overtuned. (maybe not so much now since the patches) If Serral was a Terran or Protoss player he would not have had the same level of success as he has had.
Dark/Rogue/Reynor have all feasted in LOTV. Not too long ago on every tournament, people would lament it was another zvz finals and/or semi finals.
You mention Serral not having teamhouses, sure but if you mention that don't fail to mention how the Korean scene was negatively affected by the region lock. And going back to Maru's longevity, it's not just how he's been competitive all that time, but sc2 in the earlier days went through massive changes and the competitiveness was just higher.
LOTV has been pretty stable and the playing field has just shrunk and stagnated.
Then you said "Korea elitists,"
I remember I would see comments in tournaments such as "no more foreigners, I'm not watching anymore." I only mention this since you mentioned biases, maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt you'd be going to bat for Serral if he wasn't a non korean player.
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EPT
