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On July 04 2024 13:15 JJH777 wrote:
Rogue winning with only a couple months back from the military would be crazy as well. I think it'd be hard to deny him number 1 if he somehow wins EWC fresh out of military. Based purely on trophies without taking longevity and consistency into account he already was #1 before he retired for military but then Serral and Maru surpassed him. If he won EWC it would be clear that the only reason they surpassed him at all was because he had to do military.
And he was eliminated in the first round.
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On July 04 2024 15:02 radracer wrote:
I also don't value today's wins nearly as much as when the game was more alive. As an analogy, say the NBA lost a lot of it's following and was down to 12 teams instead of 30, less people played it, less competition overall (not less skill, just competition) etc. And some dude we'll call Jichael Mordan came and won 10 rings in a row. Would he be on the all time list? IDK, not to me. But maybe to people who only watched the 12 team era, Jichael would be the GOAT.
There's a BIG DIFFERENCE between SCII in its most populated pro era, and NBA's recent decades that, for me, nullifies your argument.
SCII in its "pro team peak" had 2-5 years of age (2013-16). People who played it had that much experience with it. Ok, the ones who came from Broodwar or WC III had some experience to put them ahead, but it was another game still.
Maru, Serral, Oliveira, Reynor, Clem, Maxpax... They are, simply put, better players of SCII than the top players of 2013-16 era. Because they have 14 years (most of them) of pure SCII experience on their shoulders. That skill gap, as Lambo would say, is cristal clear to the naked eye.
Which is not the case you came up with NBA. Basketball in the 80's, 90's, so on, was a very estabilished pro game. If, for any reason, its followers and pro scene went down, any bonjwa who appeared later would rightfully have its credibility in check.
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I think 2017->2019 was the top in terms of execution. The competitiveness had alrdy dropped off, but it was very evident that the mechanics kept increasing. 2019 still had katowice and blizzcon so there was also still a lot to play for. I'm using the word execution, because I think the skill of preparing and coming up with snipe builds has only dropped off since 2015. HotS was also a way more strategic game because winning off of pure mechanics was impossible at this time. Protoss competitiveness also only dropped off since after 2017, with how execution based LotV became. That said, I do think Koreans will take this new tournament serious, and are in the process of peeling off the rust.
And do you really think that 2013 sc2 was part of peak sc2?, sure it had all the players, but certainly they would need a couple of years to get a firm grip on what the game is about and how you perform well in it.
2016 was probably a small dip in skill due to it being a different game.
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France12911 Posts
On July 05 2024 23:29 ejozl wrote:
I think 2017->2019 was the top in terms of execution. The competitiveness had alrdy dropped off, but it was very evident that the mechanics kept increasing. 2019 still had katowice and blizzcon so there was also still a lot to play for. I'm using the word execution, because I think the skill of preparing and coming up with snipe builds has only dropped off since 2015. HotS was also a way more strategic game because winning off of pure mechanics was impossible at this time. Protoss competitiveness also only dropped off since after 2017, with how execution based LotV became. That said, I do think Koreans will take this new tournament serious, and are in the process of peeling off the rust.
And do you really think that 2013 sc2 was part of peak sc2?, sure it had all the players, but certainly they would need a couple of years to get a firm grip on what the game is about and how you perform well in it.
2016 was probably a small dip in skill due to it being a different game.
I also think 2017-2019 was the peak in terms of mechanical skill / execution (well not necessarily this exact period, but before COVID era), because most top players were still playing with decent stakes AND most of them were young enough / not injured to play at their best.
But otoh with all the small QoL changes, tools, irl setups and stuff improving, you could probably today obtain the same level of "execution" with less effort than before, so it's a rather difficult thing to assess.
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On July 05 2024 23:29 ejozl wrote:
I think 2017->2019 was the top in terms of execution. The competitiveness had alrdy dropped off, but it was very evident that the mechanics kept increasing. 2019 still had katowice and blizzcon so there was also still a lot to play for. I'm using the word execution, because I think the skill of preparing and coming up with snipe builds has only dropped off since 2015. HotS was also a way more strategic game because winning off of pure mechanics was impossible at this time. Protoss competitiveness also only dropped off since after 2017, with how execution based LotV became. That said, I do think Koreans will take this new tournament serious, and are in the process of peeling off the rust.
And do you really think that 2013 sc2 was part of peak sc2?, sure it had all the players, but certainly they would need a couple of years to get a firm grip on what the game is about and how you perform well in it.
2016 was probably a small dip in skill due to it being a different game.
This 100%. When people refer to the current era as the "highest skilled era" they for some reason always compare it to 2013-2015 or even WoL (probably because they know that's the only way their argument makes somewhat sense).
However, when comparing a GSL ro16 of today to one in 2017-2019 I think it's crystal clear that the general mechanics/execution have declined.
Most of the players had a military break and are approaching or even surpassed 30 by now and have other responsibilities now
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Northern Ireland26604 Posts
On July 06 2024 00:24 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2024 23:29 ejozl wrote:
I think 2017->2019 was the top in terms of execution. The competitiveness had alrdy dropped off, but it was very evident that the mechanics kept increasing. 2019 still had katowice and blizzcon so there was also still a lot to play for. I'm using the word execution, because I think the skill of preparing and coming up with snipe builds has only dropped off since 2015. HotS was also a way more strategic game because winning off of pure mechanics was impossible at this time. Protoss competitiveness also only dropped off since after 2017, with how execution based LotV became. That said, I do think Koreans will take this new tournament serious, and are in the process of peeling off the rust.
And do you really think that 2013 sc2 was part of peak sc2?, sure it had all the players, but certainly they would need a couple of years to get a firm grip on what the game is about and how you perform well in it.
2016 was probably a small dip in skill due to it being a different game. This 100%. When people refer to the current era as the "highest skilled era" they for some reason always compare it to 2013-2015 or even WoL (probably because they know that's the only way their argument makes somewhat sense). However, when comparing a GSL ro16 of today to one in 2017-2019 I think it's crystal clear that the general mechanics/execution have declined. Most of the players had a military break and are approaching or even surpassed 30 by now and have other responsibilities now
It’s the highest skill era, not the highest depth era I think that’s reasonably fair.
Foreigners are clearly better mechanically than they were, while the overall standard of GSL has declined, to the extent the Ro32 isn’t even a thing anymore.
Right at the top end, I don’t think anyone was as complete a player as Serral back in the day. Maru on his day is still phenomenal, I don’t think anyone outside of Innovation was better than Clem or Reynor on a purely mechanical level either.
I think people sleep a bit on quite how phenomenally good pre-military Trap was in terms of execution too. At his best for my money he perhaps found the best blend of straight-up macro and aggression we’ve yet seen. Not necessarily the best Toss, but perhaps the most complete
In terms of relative skill, championship contenders, general depth yeah the scene has declined, but the crème de la creme are absolutely killing it at the same time.
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On July 05 2024 22:02 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2024 13:15 JJH777 wrote:
Rogue winning with only a couple months back from the military would be crazy as well. I think it'd be hard to deny him number 1 if he somehow wins EWC fresh out of military. Based purely on trophies without taking longevity and consistency into account he already was #1 before he retired for military but then Serral and Maru surpassed him. If he won EWC it would be clear that the only reason they surpassed him at all was because he had to do military. And he was eliminated in the first round.
Yeah it's pretty sad the qualifier didn't have a double elimination bracket. Anyone can lose a bo3 to Shin.
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On July 06 2024 00:24 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2024 23:29 ejozl wrote:
I think 2017->2019 was the top in terms of execution. The competitiveness had alrdy dropped off, but it was very evident that the mechanics kept increasing. 2019 still had katowice and blizzcon so there was also still a lot to play for. I'm using the word execution, because I think the skill of preparing and coming up with snipe builds has only dropped off since 2015. HotS was also a way more strategic game because winning off of pure mechanics was impossible at this time. Protoss competitiveness also only dropped off since after 2017, with how execution based LotV became. That said, I do think Koreans will take this new tournament serious, and are in the process of peeling off the rust.
And do you really think that 2013 sc2 was part of peak sc2?, sure it had all the players, but certainly they would need a couple of years to get a firm grip on what the game is about and how you perform well in it.
2016 was probably a small dip in skill due to it being a different game. This 100%. When people refer to the current era as the "highest skilled era" they for some reason always compare it to 2013-2015 or even WoL (probably because they know that's the only way their argument makes somewhat sense). However, when comparing a GSL ro16 of today to one in 2017-2019 I think it's crystal clear that the general mechanics/execution have declined. Most of the players had a military break and are approaching or even surpassed 30 by now and have other responsibilities now
The reason people make this comparison is actually because 2014-2017 got often mentioned (even if not by years, but by things like "Proleague-era") as the most competitive era...usually because you need to pick something pre-2018 if you want to disregard Serral. The biggest argument made against him is always "he wasn't around in the most competitive era!"
Well, if 2017-2019 is the most competitive era, then...yes, Serral was around. And across those years, he was arguably the best, but without a doubt he was always Top 3 from 2018 onwards.
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The reason people make this comparison is actually because 2014-2017 got often mentioned (even if not by years, but by things like "Proleague-era") as the most competitive era...usually because you need to pick something pre-2018 if you want to disregard Serral. The biggest argument made against him is always "he wasn't around in the most competitive era!"
Well, if 2017-2019 is the most competitive era, then...yes, Serral was around. And across those years, he was arguably the best, but without a doubt he was always Top 3 from 2018 onwards.
Believe it or not, there are people that think this is a valid premise without being "anti serral"
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On July 06 2024 04:30 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2024 00:24 Charoisaur wrote:On July 05 2024 23:29 ejozl wrote:
I think 2017->2019 was the top in terms of execution. The competitiveness had alrdy dropped off, but it was very evident that the mechanics kept increasing. 2019 still had katowice and blizzcon so there was also still a lot to play for. I'm using the word execution, because I think the skill of preparing and coming up with snipe builds has only dropped off since 2015. HotS was also a way more strategic game because winning off of pure mechanics was impossible at this time. Protoss competitiveness also only dropped off since after 2017, with how execution based LotV became. That said, I do think Koreans will take this new tournament serious, and are in the process of peeling off the rust.
And do you really think that 2013 sc2 was part of peak sc2?, sure it had all the players, but certainly they would need a couple of years to get a firm grip on what the game is about and how you perform well in it.
2016 was probably a small dip in skill due to it being a different game. This 100%. When people refer to the current era as the "highest skilled era" they for some reason always compare it to 2013-2015 or even WoL (probably because they know that's the only way their argument makes somewhat sense). However, when comparing a GSL ro16 of today to one in 2017-2019 I think it's crystal clear that the general mechanics/execution have declined. Most of the players had a military break and are approaching or even surpassed 30 by now and have other responsibilities now The reason people make this comparison is actually because 2014-2017 got often mentioned (even if not by years, but by things like "Proleague-era") as the most competitive era...usually because you need to pick something pre-2018 if you want to disregard Serral. The biggest argument made against him is always "he wasn't around in the most competitive era!" Well, if 2017-2019 is the most competitive era, then...yes, Serral was around. And across those years, he was arguably the best, but without a doubt he was always Top 3 from 2018 onwards.
Most competitive era and most skilled era are 2 different things.
The Proleague era was without the doubt the most competitive era in terms of talent/professionalism of the scene.
2017-2019 was slightly down in terms of competitiveness due to teamhouses disbanding but almost all the top players continued and honed their skills which is why I believe it to be the most skilled era. Since then the competitiveness has declined much further though and pure skill level declined too imo.
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On July 06 2024 08:33 radracer wrote:Show nested quote +
The reason people make this comparison is actually because 2014-2017 got often mentioned (even if not by years, but by things like "Proleague-era") as the most competitive era...usually because you need to pick something pre-2018 if you want to disregard Serral. The biggest argument made against him is always "he wasn't around in the most competitive era!"
Well, if 2017-2019 is the most competitive era, then...yes, Serral was around. And across those years, he was arguably the best, but without a doubt he was always Top 3 from 2018 onwards.
Believe it or not, there are people that think this is a valid premise without being "anti serral"
He asked why people compare today with pre-2017. I explained that it happens in response because pre-2017 often gets highlighted in the "Serral can't be the GOAT"-debate.
I just explained the origin of the comparison. Has nothing to do with the fact that it is or isn't a valid premise, never argued that.
On July 06 2024 08:44 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2024 04:30 Balnazza wrote:On July 06 2024 00:24 Charoisaur wrote:On July 05 2024 23:29 ejozl wrote:
I think 2017->2019 was the top in terms of execution. The competitiveness had alrdy dropped off, but it was very evident that the mechanics kept increasing. 2019 still had katowice and blizzcon so there was also still a lot to play for. I'm using the word execution, because I think the skill of preparing and coming up with snipe builds has only dropped off since 2015. HotS was also a way more strategic game because winning off of pure mechanics was impossible at this time. Protoss competitiveness also only dropped off since after 2017, with how execution based LotV became. That said, I do think Koreans will take this new tournament serious, and are in the process of peeling off the rust.
And do you really think that 2013 sc2 was part of peak sc2?, sure it had all the players, but certainly they would need a couple of years to get a firm grip on what the game is about and how you perform well in it.
2016 was probably a small dip in skill due to it being a different game. This 100%. When people refer to the current era as the "highest skilled era" they for some reason always compare it to 2013-2015 or even WoL (probably because they know that's the only way their argument makes somewhat sense). However, when comparing a GSL ro16 of today to one in 2017-2019 I think it's crystal clear that the general mechanics/execution have declined. Most of the players had a military break and are approaching or even surpassed 30 by now and have other responsibilities now The reason people make this comparison is actually because 2014-2017 got often mentioned (even if not by years, but by things like "Proleague-era") as the most competitive era...usually because you need to pick something pre-2018 if you want to disregard Serral. The biggest argument made against him is always "he wasn't around in the most competitive era!" Well, if 2017-2019 is the most competitive era, then...yes, Serral was around. And across those years, he was arguably the best, but without a doubt he was always Top 3 from 2018 onwards. Most competitive era and most skilled era are 2 different things. The Proleague era was without the doubt the most competitive era in terms of talent/professionalism of the scene. 2017-2019 was slightly down in terms of competitiveness due to teamhouses disbanding but almost all the top players continued and honed their skills which is why I believe it to be the most skilled era. Since then the competitiveness has declined much further though and pure skill level declined too imo.
True, they are two different things.
Though I don't see why the skill peak would have declined from 2019 to today tbh. It's not like the stakes at the top are particularly lower. What is definetly true is that the competitive depths, as in "players who can win the biggest trophies" has clearly declined and is focused on maybe ten players at best.
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Northern Ireland26604 Posts
On July 06 2024 10:15 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2024 08:33 radracer wrote:
The reason people make this comparison is actually because 2014-2017 got often mentioned (even if not by years, but by things like "Proleague-era") as the most competitive era...usually because you need to pick something pre-2018 if you want to disregard Serral. The biggest argument made against him is always "he wasn't around in the most competitive era!"
Well, if 2017-2019 is the most competitive era, then...yes, Serral was around. And across those years, he was arguably the best, but without a doubt he was always Top 3 from 2018 onwards.
Believe it or not, there are people that think this is a valid premise without being "anti serral" He asked why people compare today with pre-2017. I explained that it happens in response because pre-2017 often gets highlighted in the "Serral can't be the GOAT"-debate. I just explained the origin of the comparison. Has nothing to do with the fact that it is or isn't a valid premise, never argued that. Show nested quote +On July 06 2024 08:44 Charoisaur wrote:On July 06 2024 04:30 Balnazza wrote:On July 06 2024 00:24 Charoisaur wrote:On July 05 2024 23:29 ejozl wrote:
I think 2017->2019 was the top in terms of execution. The competitiveness had alrdy dropped off, but it was very evident that the mechanics kept increasing. 2019 still had katowice and blizzcon so there was also still a lot to play for. I'm using the word execution, because I think the skill of preparing and coming up with snipe builds has only dropped off since 2015. HotS was also a way more strategic game because winning off of pure mechanics was impossible at this time. Protoss competitiveness also only dropped off since after 2017, with how execution based LotV became. That said, I do think Koreans will take this new tournament serious, and are in the process of peeling off the rust.
And do you really think that 2013 sc2 was part of peak sc2?, sure it had all the players, but certainly they would need a couple of years to get a firm grip on what the game is about and how you perform well in it.
2016 was probably a small dip in skill due to it being a different game. This 100%. When people refer to the current era as the "highest skilled era" they for some reason always compare it to 2013-2015 or even WoL (probably because they know that's the only way their argument makes somewhat sense). However, when comparing a GSL ro16 of today to one in 2017-2019 I think it's crystal clear that the general mechanics/execution have declined. Most of the players had a military break and are approaching or even surpassed 30 by now and have other responsibilities now The reason people make this comparison is actually because 2014-2017 got often mentioned (even if not by years, but by things like "Proleague-era") as the most competitive era...usually because you need to pick something pre-2018 if you want to disregard Serral. The biggest argument made against him is always "he wasn't around in the most competitive era!" Well, if 2017-2019 is the most competitive era, then...yes, Serral was around. And across those years, he was arguably the best, but without a doubt he was always Top 3 from 2018 onwards. Most competitive era and most skilled era are 2 different things. The Proleague era was without the doubt the most competitive era in terms of talent/professionalism of the scene. 2017-2019 was slightly down in terms of competitiveness due to teamhouses disbanding but almost all the top players continued and honed their skills which is why I believe it to be the most skilled era. Since then the competitiveness has declined much further though and pure skill level declined too imo. True, they are two different things. Though I don't see why the skill peak would have declined from 2019 to today tbh. It's not like the stakes at the top are particularly lower. What is definetly true is that the competitive depths, as in "players who can win the biggest trophies" has clearly declined and is focused on maybe ten players at best.
Aye it took a while for the prize money to really drop down, and SC2 has always been pretty bad (IMO) for doing top-heavy distributions.
So if the skill level had dropped, or players were half-assing it there’s clearly a lot of potential incentive for that next tier of players to really grind and seize the opportunities that that would open up.
It’s not something we’ve really seen by and large.
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I don't really see how people can say that this era isn't less competitive. There are less champion level players, players admittedly slack off on practicing until big tournaments are on the horizon.
Compare that to pro league, it was their job to be practicing. Obviously people still took breaks and what not but I don't think it's even close in terms of practice hours between then and now.
As for the next lower tier of players winning events and catching the slackers. I don't think this is as likely as you might think, because the old guard has such an advantage it's years of grinding for miniscule rewards. That's essentially why 90% of kr pros retired, without salary winning was just not likely enough to justify putting in the hours unless you were already a top top player.
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On July 07 2024 01:59 Moonerz wrote:
I don't really see how people can say that this era isn't less competitive. There are less champion level players, players admittedly slack off on practicing until big tournaments are on the horizon.
Compare that to pro league, it was their job to be practicing. Obviously people still took breaks and what not but I don't think it's even close in terms of practice hours between then and now.
As for the next lower tier of players winning events and catching the slackers. I don't think this is as likely as you might think, because the old guard has such an advantage it's years of grinding for miniscule rewards. That's essentially why 90% of kr pros retired, without salary winning was just not likely enough to justify putting in the hours unless you were already a top top player.
Anyone who says it is just not understanding the difference between competitive depth and player skill level. Or they are only fans since the modern era of SC2, or it fits their fanboy agenda.
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So for finding the goat which eras do you think we should look at? the most competitive 2013->2016, or the most "skilled" 2017->2019/2020?
And in what are so different scenes in such a small span of time, how much should longevity count?
Then there is also the question for how much value you put in GSL, since 2013 the Koreans were split and since 2017 the western rise also split the scene. So GSL was strongest in the 2011,2012 and 2016 years, as it seems to me. And part of the reason that Rogue, Neeb, Maru and Serral can look so dominant is because of this split, had Neeb and Serral participated in the GSLs and had Maru and Rogue participated in the WCS western tournaments surely there would've been more holes in the resumés of these players.
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United States23455 Posts
Ah, it’s good to see GOAT arguments alive and well
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On July 05 2024 23:29 ejozl wrote:
And do you really think that 2013 sc2 was part of peak sc2?, sure it had all the players, but certainly they would need a couple of years to get a firm grip on what the game is about and how you perform well in it.
2016 was probably a small dip in skill due to it being a different game.
Just for a comparison: Scarlett was a top 40 player for most of that era and was top 20 at the end of 2012/ranked 32th in December 2013.
The peak definitely is later, which is why I also find it odd to place Mvp so high up on a GOAT list.
But this phenomenon will also be part of a GOAT-analysis, I am working on currently, which will have a systematic comparison of different eras, as well as completely transparent rating systems incorporated.
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I wish the Victims list could be extende up to 100 observations
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I like aligulac quite a lot for data analysis, but this part of the website is sketchy.
For example on Serral's site, Elazer (30:4), ShoWTimE (41:14) and HeRoMaRinE (26:4) are all listed as rival and victim. Against his other 2 "rivals" he has a 65,96% win rate (Reynor and Clem each a record of 31:16).
And his Nemeses are all from a time where he still attended school and they further never played more than 5 games against each other.
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EPT
