#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time - Page 64

On July 23 2024 23:45 allmotor1 wrote:



To be fair, if Serral was around since WOL and was a competitive player all throughout sc2's history, you wouldn't be downplaying his longevity like you seem to be doing to Maru's longevity. There's not many players who have been around as long as Maru and are still after all this time a top competitor.

Serral is truly a phenom no doubt, however I'm sorry, but since LOTV, zerg has been overtuned. (maybe not so much now since the patches) If Serral was a Terran or Protoss player he would not have had the same level of success as he has had.

Dark/Rogue/Reynor have all feasted in LOTV. Not too long ago on every tournament, people would lament it was another zvz finals and/or semi finals.

You mention Serral not having teamhouses, sure but if you mention that don't fail to mention how the Korean scene was negatively affected by the region lock. And going back to Maru's longevity, it's not just how he's been competitive all that time, but sc2 in the earlier days went through massive changes and the competitiveness was just higher.

LOTV has been pretty stable and the playing field has just shrunk and stagnated.

Then you said "Korea elitists,"
I remember I would see comments in tournaments such as "no more foreigners, I'm not watching anymore." I only mention this since you mentioned biases, maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt you'd be going to bat for Serral if he wasn't a non korean player.

Mizenhauer wrote:
Correct.

On July 23 2024 13:48 PremoBeats wrote:

Even if we assume that Maru was a top player since WoL (where I think many people suffer from nostalgia bias, if we look at his actual achievements in that period), my point is, that there must be a time, when the argument of him being at the top for longer falls short, assuming he ALWAYS trails behind Serral in comparison.
Especially considering that Serral stomped onto the scene in 2018 with no support of a multi million dollar industry behind him or living in team houses since he was 13.
My question is: When is that point? Will it never be reached as Korean elitists simply value 2015 so much more? Even if in a direct comparison Maru clearly is worse than Serral?
I mean that is fine by me... I simply want people to show their true colors.


Did you read my GOAT article? I accounted for all of that with heavy penalties on Serral who still came out on top by far.

Plus, Maru never DOMINATED 2015 either. He was a good player; a wild card at winning.
All you said applies to Maru too, as his dominance (mostly behind Serral) started in 2018 as well.

Disagree on Mvp: He only had one hyper successful year, when SC2 was still being figured out. He has win rates of less than 50% or 40% in 2012 and 2013. Someone who is so inconsistent can't be GOAT, even subjectively. His hyper successful year was 2011 where the pro scene wasn't even properly established yet. Peak SC2 according to numbers of players, pros and competitiveness is 2013-2015/2016.

A lot of the players of that era transitioned into the period of Maru's and Serral's rise though. I am currently working on an era-comparison how these 2015-players fared versus other 2015-players in 2015 and 2018 and their results versus the new talent. This analysis will give us a better understanding what the penalty in comparing these era for post-2018 results should be. And I highly doubt that the 50% penalty I used in my analysis is even remotely fair towards post-2018. But we will see...

On July 23 2024 10:38 UnLarva wrote:


Great post. Only problem here is that this all is pretty much applicable to Maru too, and if we really count his efforts and achievements during that now near-mythical era (that Serral lacks), then we can point more deserving guy(s) for the GOAT than Maru (again, applying same criteria).

Thinking Maru as The Goat in these circumstances doesn't feel right. Mvp lacks too much to be really considered.

On July 24 2024 09:39 rwala wrote:


Which is why I said if results in the most competitive era are the “only” thing you care about, you’re probably picking a guy like Mvp. I do not agree that results in the most competitive era is a wash between Maru and Serral. Maru is arguably the most dominant Proleague player ever and he won two premier tournaments that arguably were more difficult to win than anything Serral has ever won precisely because of the respective differences in the player pools. There were several times in SCII’s super competitive era in which Maru was the best Terran in the world and even the best player in the world. Not as much as some of his contemporaries, but the idea that Maru had no results to speak of during that era doesn’t make sense.

On July 24 2024 09:21 rwala wrote:


I read your article and enjoyed it a lot. I appreciated the work you put into it. It's worth thinking of why your analyses discount Mvp so much. Some of these things are just common sense. My personal GOAT pick is Rogue but if you think no one can even subjectively pick Mvp I think you've lost the forest for the trees for sure.

I encourage you to engage with my hypo on Clem. I think it'll help give you some perspective.

On July 24 2024 14:46 PremoBeats wrote:

Subjectively, Mvp can be picked... but he didn't play in the most competitive era either, which is an argument most people make when they try to deny Serral. Peak (total player and pro count) was 2013-2015/2016. That is why I dismiss Mvp... but if people want to pick him as their GOAT because of one hypersuccessful year in a pro scene that wasn't really established (which btw, didn't even make it among the best years ever played in the top 5 match win rate wise, and tournament win participation isn't #1 either), be my guest. But then these people shouldn't discount Serral for not playing in the era that wasn't prime either... all I demand is consistency

Well... Serral actually played for a couple of years and defeated many players of the old era. Clem did not. This reason was put into the article exactly because of such a hypothetical. But sure.. if that other guys dominates the same way Serral did but since he was 13 years old like Maru when he started, surpassing Serral's insane statistics, he definitely had to be checked against the others as GOAT.

On July 24 2024 15:00 UnLarva wrote:


Good you note that Serral has been around very long too. I've that ridiculous mental image (induced by the site) on Maru as some sort of super sc2-toddler in a corner of a playroom of a crowded team house, while little Serral was continuously kicked ass by his brother Protosser on a back seat of their family sedan, when they both practice APM with unplugged keyboards...

It is not like Serral would be some kind of newcomer to the scene as a whole.

On July 24 2024 16:53 PremoBeats wrote:

I mean Serral played Rain in 2015 where he won one and lost one match. Given the fact that he already was able to at least take maps of players who some people also throw in as GOATs, implies that Serral, was he born Korean, didn't attend school and also had the support of team houses with their strategy crafting and 12 hours practice regimes, probably wouldn't have fared much worse than Maru when looking at how he outclasses him so much in the same era statistical wis and how Serral kickstarted once school was over.
But too many ifs and an abysmal sample size leave too much room to truly pursue this thought in any meaningful way.

On July 24 2024 14:46 PremoBeats wrote:

Subjectively, Mvp can be picked... but he didn't play in the most competitive era either, which is an argument most people make when they try to deny Serral. Peak (total player and pro count) was 2013-2015/2016. That is why I dismiss Mvp... but if people want to pick him as their GOAT because of one hypersuccessful year in a pro scene that wasn't really established (which btw, didn't even make it among the best years ever played in the top 5 match win rate wise, and tournament win participation isn't #1 either), be my guest. But then these people shouldn't discount Serral for not playing in the era that wasn't prime either... all I demand is consistency

Well... Serral actually played for a couple of years and defeated many players of the old era. Clem did not. This reason was put into the article exactly because of such a hypothetical. But sure.. if that other guys dominates the same way Serral did but since he was 13 years old like Maru when he started, surpassing Serral's insane statistics, he definitely had to be checked against the others as GOAT.

On July 24 2024 17:24 UnLarva wrote:


I have had the feeling that this "Lack of team house environment with 12h/d sweat grinders" - argument as something Serral is lacking and making him better (or worse!!!) for this reason doesn't simply work as I think the environment were Serral grew up (and is living) was (and is) many ways more healthy and balanced than his Korean peers experienced. I think that Serral's environment is buff/perk for his case: supportive family that also set healthy limits, highly competitive (at least first, nearly unsurmountable) setting with his big brother, SC2 as wholesome family experience (journeys to tournaments together as a family), muuuuuuuch muuuuuuuch more peaceful environmental setting (big city vs rural village), sauna, hikes with dog in a woods, less economic dependancies and requirements to perform well, etc. that cultivated Serral to what he became. Serral was luckily born to "the team house family".

I mean, Serral looks to me benefitting from exactly those same things that are usually considered as a burden or extra uphill battle for his rise to prominence. Should I say more 'Zen' for him.

Korean team house experience should be considered as handicapping factor relative to Sotala's family team house experience.

Admittedly I am biased with this take as a fellow Finn, but I share a lot of mental landscape with Serral only because of that. That's why I also think that Serral couldn't care less about going Korea and playing in the GSL (that, no doubt, would increase a lot of its relative value.) Just for note how I see that topic.

On July 24 2024 20:26 Mizenhauer wrote:


That depends on their results.

On July 24 2024 22:56 rwala wrote:


How are you calculating peak pro player count? Genuinely curious because I had assumed that after that first GSL where an insane 2000+ players competed in the LAN qualifiers (including over 100 non-Koreans) things normalized and in fact the pro player base steadily decreased as more and more pros and young talents switched over to LoL, etc.

I like that you’re conceding the point on the Clem hypo because I think it really helps understand differences of perspective in how to think about GOATs. For me personally there comes a point where the pro scene has dwindled so much and the tournament player pools and formats become such a shadow of their former selves that essentially results in that era don’t matter much if at all in terms of a GOAT convo.

I thought the conversation between uThermal and StarCraft Historian on this point was really illuminating because for a lot of contemporary fans it’s hard to really imagine how much more competitive the game was. Imagine competing in a qualifier of hundreds and hundreds of pros for a chance to make it to another qualifier of dozens and dozens of pros to make it to 2 or 3 group stages of top-level pros, all of whom are specifically preparing builds to counter your playstyle. There really aren’t tournaments these days that come anywhere near that level. These days you can have a losing record in your Katowice group and still win the whole thing on a good day. uThermal described getting destroyed by 5th tier Korean pros during the most competitive era, and described how demoralizing it was when like 40 random Korean pros (often not the best ones) would show up at an MLG and flood the playoff bracket.

People describe this as “Korean elitism” but it’s actually just an honest observation of how competitive the scene was at a time in which the government of a country and its largest corporations had been investing in talent and infrastructure for over a decade.

Korean Starcraft competitions for the first 20 years of SCI and II are like the equivalent of the NBA. Could a player who never competed in the NBA but is widely regarded as the best and most dominant player in the world by their peers, has the most impressive stats, and led their team to several gold medals and league championships be the basketball GOAT? Sure! In fact, uThermal believes Serral is the GOAT despite being more honest than anyone in this forum about how much more competitive the scene was in South Korea.

I appreciate that Serral held his own against Rain one time, etc. but this is not the same as demonstrating that you can consistently defeat the world’s best players, win and place highly in the most competitive tournaments the game has ever seen, and dominate the most competitive, high stakes league in the game’s history.

That said, I think Serral is a great GOAT pick for many people. The best analogy for Serral fans I think is Babe Ruth. He is probably the consensus GOAT pick in baseball despite the fact that he played in a less competitive era (fewer teams/players, athletes of color prohibited from playing, etc.). Ruth was so much more dominant than other players of his era and he had the rare talent of being a slugger who was also an excellent pitcher. Ruth also popularized the game almost single-handedly in a way that I think Serral popularized SCII with a “Western” audience. Ruth wouldn’t be my baseball GOAT pick for a lot of the same reasons Serral isn’t mine either, but it’s a good analogy for understanding how a competitor could be the GOAT despite playing in a less competitive era.

On July 24 2024 23:37 UnLarva wrote:
@rwala: Excellent post again!

From number side of the things, now we need only somewhat objective measurements to make sensible comparisons between eras. Personally It wouldn't be problem to me if in the end multipliers for the peak competitive era would appear something like x3.0 or x4.0 relative to post-2018 happenings, but such multipliers must come from rigorous studies.

The key issue is the striking and immediately apparent contradiction between statistics and what is written to the very title of this topic. If current top dogs all would be some kind newcomer usurpers I'd happily accept 'Korean Elitist stance', but, but, those Koreans who still remain there playing last half decade or so are practically all (and have been since heydays) the chrystallization and from the core of that same Korean Elite gamer group that once made Korean SC2 hegemony nearly inpenetrable for foreigners. And there is that one guy who have been slapping that cohort of absolutely best already six years. Why only look retrospectively backwards, when you can also look from the history onwards. In fact a hell lot of same guys are playing and watching how things fold out now. They are not those tier-5 Koreans flooding brackets for number 140 or 203 in a random qualifiers, they are the cream-of-the-cream Serral must meet every single tournament where he playes against Koreans. For the top dog It's irrelevant if there are 2000, 100, or 30, if 20 or so at the top 30 now are among the best players ever to play the game.

Trying to not sound too antagonistical here. :D

On July 24 2024 17:24 UnLarva wrote:


I have had the feeling that this "Lack of team house environment with 12h/d sweat grinders" - argument as something Serral is lacking and making him better (or worse!!!) for this reason doesn't simply work as I think the environment were Serral grew up (and is living) was (and is) many ways more healthy and balanced than his Korean peers experienced. I think that Serral's environment is buff/perk for his case: supportive family that also set healthy limits, highly competitive (at least first, nearly unsurmountable) setting with his big brother, SC2 as wholesome family experience (journeys to tournaments together as a family), muuuuuuuch muuuuuuuch more peaceful environmental setting (big city vs rural village), sauna, hikes with dog in a woods, less economic dependancies and requirements to perform well, etc. that cultivated Serral to what he became. Serral was luckily born to "the team house family".

I mean, Serral looks to me benefitting from exactly those same things that are usually considered as a burden or extra uphill battle for his rise to prominence. Should I say more 'Zen' for him.

Korean team house experience should be considered as handicapping factor relative to Sotala's family team house experience.

Admittedly I am biased with this take as a fellow Finn, but I share a lot of mental landscape with Serral only because of that. That's why I also think that Serral couldn't care less about going Korea and playing in the GSL (that, no doubt, would increase a lot of it's relative value.) Just for note how I see that topic.

On July 25 2024 00:59 WombaT wrote:

Perhaps, it’s hard to know, but good points!

I think it’s a pathway that is healthier, both for individuals and for the wider eSports scene in general. Or at least a game like StarCraft with players spread all over the globe