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On June 14 2024 19:43 Furaijin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 15:47 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD What official goat trophy are you talking about? At the end of the last big tourney last weekend; Serral won that tourney and because he won his 10th big tourney in a row they officially gave him a GOAT trophy! Which was VERY accurate; unlike this post of this guy who is clearly full of it and doesnt know facts from his opinions xDDDDD
It wasn't an "official" goat trophy though. It was 10-SC2-Championships-in-a-row trophy, you can read it on the trophy too. The goat line was added by the translator.
Congrats Serral on winning 400k in upcoming Saudi tourney, hopefully we'll get some good matches from the other competitors at least.
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On June 12 2024 12:53 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2024 11:17 tskarzyn wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD Serral is a strong GOAT pick. However, until SC2 goes the way of AoE2 and forces players to pick random races or eliminate the races they don't want to face on certain maps, we will never be able to tease out player skill from racial strength and map pool I love how AoE 2 works, but you really can't compare that to SC2 (or any Blizzard RTS for that matter). The mappool isn't build for that, the races are extremly distinct compared to AoE 2 and there is honestly not much fun with only three races to even have this procedure. Focusing on one race and mastering it is the core of SC2. But it is kind of interesting how this was never really an issue, but since Dallas suddenly it becomes more and more of a criteria for some people...weird, but okay Honestly can't wait when Messi gets his GOAT-status revoked because he never proved to be a good goalkeeper.
Messi aint no GOAT.
Thats Pelé, closely followed by Maradona. And thats it.
Messi comes right after, alongside Ronaldo Phenom (who's like MvP, with his injuries keeping him from higher numbers)
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On June 13 2024 09:30 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2024 12:53 Balnazza wrote:On June 12 2024 11:17 tskarzyn wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD Serral is a strong GOAT pick. However, until SC2 goes the way of AoE2 and forces players to pick random races or eliminate the races they don't want to face on certain maps, we will never be able to tease out player skill from racial strength and map pool I love how AoE 2 works, but you really can't compare that to SC2 (or any Blizzard RTS for that matter). The mappool isn't build for that, the races are extremly distinct compared to AoE 2 and there is honestly not much fun with only three races to even have this procedure. Focusing on one race and mastering it is the core of SC2. But it is kind of interesting how this was never really an issue, but since Dallas suddenly it becomes more and more of a criteria for some people...weird, but okay Honestly can't wait when Messi gets his GOAT-status revoked because he never proved to be a good goalkeeper. If anything, race deserves far more focus in SC2 because the units and mechanics of each are wildly different. Re: this never being an issue, how long have you been following sc2...? There have been multi-year stretches in which everyone agreed Zerg was, well, easier. Do I think Serral could be the better player? Of course! Can I say that with confidence without having any way of normalizing the unknown variable that is racial strength? No, I can't. For all we know, herO is actually the best living SC2 player but picked the worst race.
I would still like to see single players tourneys that took offracing in consideration.
Like, in bo3's each player would have to play at least 2 races. In bo5, all 3 races.
Or you could have systems like the ones they use in team maps, like each race having a "life". And in bo5+'s, you could resurrect a race...
Theeeen, we would have a more solid grasp on whos really THE BEST IN STARCRAFT II.
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On June 13 2024 09:36 radracer wrote:
The funny thing is, as a dude who never stopped watching/loving starcraft, when I tell people I know that used to be huge fans about Serral:
"Yo there's a Finnish dude that's the best player in the world right now!" They're like "neat, it's not koreans anymore?" and I'm like welllll SC2 isn't that popular in KR anymore, so there's more parity. And they're like "huh ok"
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom
The time keeps passing. And with it, the relative importance of a 3-4 year span gets weathered down if the guy on top keeps winning. There no denying it.
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On June 08 2024 06:18 njleslu2024 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 05:37 Argonauta wrote:On June 06 2024 14:42 LukaMav wrote:
Fun fact:
Serral would win more GSL’s than Maru winning ESL’s if they switch places Under your scenario, if Maru had never play any international events he would be clearly the goat, as it is likely he would have won some. Yet, he didn't because he actually did play on them. Your statement is correct only under the circumstances of GSL still being the most prestigious tournament in the world, more valuable than ESL masters, DH and IEM. But clearly no, both in the aspect of player pool, competitiveness and something like prize pool etc. GSL was the most difficult tournament (or at least one of) to win before 2018, where players from GSL are always winning the international tournament such as IEM and WCS. However, after Serral wins WCS 2018 global finals we can see things changed completely: For IEM katowice finals: 2024 2023, 2022, 2021 are won by non-koreans and 2020 2019 2018 are won by GSL players from Korean;
For WCS finals: 2018 is won by nonkorean and 2019 is won by Korean;
For WESG: 2 both won by Korean;
For gamers8: the only one is 2023 won by non Korean;
For GVW: both won by non-koreans;
For DH/ESL masters: we have 5 from Serral, 2 from Reynor and 1 from Clem, 8 combined, and we have 2 from Maru, 1 from Dark and 1 from herO, and 1 from Trap, 5 combined.So see clearly? after 2018,GSL players are not more competetive in International events than non-GSL players. Serral is the one who won the most international tournaments (11), far ahead. Therefore it’s GSL needs to show its value to Serral for him to take part in not reverse. Serral never needs a GSL to claim his position. Also, I really think assumption on Serral playing in GSL is bullshit. This is an analogy to Real Madrid defeating Chelsea, Arsenal and Man City in Champion league and winning the trophy. Then we have someone having to care whether RM is able to defeat these 3 clubs in Prime league as well, I mean, who cares? I know Prime league is more competitive, with no winter break and more high income players, but, I've already beaten you in a better, higher and more prestigious stage, why should RM join Prime league to defeat the English Club again??
Thats it. The regional comparison bias is very well described here.
The time span is another matter. Is there any way of measuring, even by proxying, the decrease in competition, and its effect on championship contenders numbers? By a mere speculation, is strongly feel that Serral has been such an outlier, that event if you extrapolated the 2014-16 population of top players to nowadays, and divided the current tourneys by this estimated number, Serrals performance would remain strong for GOAT status.
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Northern Ireland24931 Posts
On June 15 2024 02:01 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2024 12:53 Balnazza wrote:On June 12 2024 11:17 tskarzyn wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD Serral is a strong GOAT pick. However, until SC2 goes the way of AoE2 and forces players to pick random races or eliminate the races they don't want to face on certain maps, we will never be able to tease out player skill from racial strength and map pool I love how AoE 2 works, but you really can't compare that to SC2 (or any Blizzard RTS for that matter). The mappool isn't build for that, the races are extremly distinct compared to AoE 2 and there is honestly not much fun with only three races to even have this procedure. Focusing on one race and mastering it is the core of SC2. But it is kind of interesting how this was never really an issue, but since Dallas suddenly it becomes more and more of a criteria for some people...weird, but okay Honestly can't wait when Messi gets his GOAT-status revoked because he never proved to be a good goalkeeper. Messi aint no GOAT. Thats Pelé, closely followed by Maradona. And thats it. Messi comes right after, alongside Ronaldo Phenom (who's like MvP, with his injuries keeping him from higher numbers)
Heresy!
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On June 15 2024 02:32 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2024 02:01 Locutos wrote:On June 12 2024 12:53 Balnazza wrote:On June 12 2024 11:17 tskarzyn wrote:On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote:
After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD Serral is a strong GOAT pick. However, until SC2 goes the way of AoE2 and forces players to pick random races or eliminate the races they don't want to face on certain maps, we will never be able to tease out player skill from racial strength and map pool I love how AoE 2 works, but you really can't compare that to SC2 (or any Blizzard RTS for that matter). The mappool isn't build for that, the races are extremly distinct compared to AoE 2 and there is honestly not much fun with only three races to even have this procedure. Focusing on one race and mastering it is the core of SC2. But it is kind of interesting how this was never really an issue, but since Dallas suddenly it becomes more and more of a criteria for some people...weird, but okay Honestly can't wait when Messi gets his GOAT-status revoked because he never proved to be a good goalkeeper. Messi aint no GOAT. Thats Pelé, closely followed by Maradona. And thats it. Messi comes right after, alongside Ronaldo Phenom (who's like MvP, with his injuries keeping him from higher numbers) Heresy!
Seconded! Heresy! 
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Dear Maru
Please, you're very welcome to Finland to take a vacation from SC2, with SC2.
I'm sure there won't be any difficulties with your accommodation.
You need Finnish sauna meta, you need to see the woods, and the other side of the art.
You need to make personal friends with European Zerg. Everyone will love you, and everyone will root you. A trip to Finland will be a life-changing and scene-changing experience. See it from within, as beloved Master of the Art of Starcraft II.
You and Joona can handle this. Together.
- Finnish Serral Fan -
PS. Of course, a random TL.net Serral Fanboy cannot assign any task to anyone, but considering Finnish mentality, local scene, and the state of the game, this humble, respectable suggestion holds some merits. It is doable. - Mikko from Kotka, Finland.
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It all comes down to the preparation. Where and how, now or longer term, these are the questions.
Serral and Maru have some real leverage to say how the scene develops in the future, and if they can agree with some economical, moral, and practical dilemmas with the Saudi money, we all can.
From Saudis perspective (morals aside), they should invest long term and grow the scene. Their read is mis/uninformed. For holding a grip in a SC2 zoo (as of Hyper-rich Saudi-Prince), you should invest for the future, for that all-embracing competitive blackhole coming behind the GOATs. It is bad business, but understandably so, NOBODY organising events ever before took these matters in consideration in the past, and you simply cannot put that to The GOATs (of presents).
From PR perspective, following "World Championship Tournament" will be the swan song of StarCraft II. Those who have a control over prize money, do not hold any other relevant control over anything else than their regime (for which I do not want to go here). They won't help the declining scene with their monetary input.
Nice. Epic. But not ever lasting. Economically it will be a bad investment.
Hopefully the quality of Starcraft II will be never-seen-before. At least.
We all need seek smaller circles, joy for unpaid artistry, from ever climping skill levels and artistic brilliancy, and from general good-dudeness that was once the founding stone of E-Sports. One cannot turn a page unto history, against the history.
...
SC2 became a prostitute. Let's see how it goes.
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The society that holds women as slave-2nd class citizens really do need some societal re-adjustments.
Imagine @Zombiegrub holding back on scene only because the law (at least the cultural convention) practically says you can throw the first rock against the witch.
![[image loading]](https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.jUimt4AvbE07xWiCGSehIQHaFj?w=196&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=1.3&pid=1.7)
(Yes. I paint a stereotype here to show the point).
Smix in her normal attire would be unacceptable, cardinal sin.
![[image loading]](https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.yqmDV09VO-Wn93zOopBvDQHaE8?w=262&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=1.3&pid=1.7)
And @Scarlett ! Women DO NOT compete in anything, lest in War Games! Allahu akbar!
![[image loading]](https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.o3r0-GWv9KTBxB7dWxF4RgHaE5?w=246&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=1.3&pid=1.7)
Simply put, Global Starcraft II scene and Saudi Arabia is two irreconcilably unfit pairing.
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[For Moderational purposes, this comment is deletable as I only made a clarification. Needless to say, I will easily die on behalf of both ZombieGrub and Smix if ever needed and... I'm a Finn. However, I think they would do fine without me all the same, that said if things go hard.
Scarlett will handle anything and everything, anywhere and everywhere, anyway.] ;D
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On June 13 2024 11:20 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2024 09:55 WombaT wrote:On June 13 2024 09:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On June 13 2024 09:36 radracer wrote:
The funny thing is, as a dude who never stopped watching/loving starcraft, when I tell people I know that used to be huge fans about Serral:
"Yo there's a Finnish dude that's the best player in the world right now!" They're like "neat, it's not koreans anymore?" and I'm like welllll SC2 isn't that popular in KR anymore, so there's more parity. And they're like "huh ok"
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom Yes, this whole GOAT debate only exists because SC2 is dead and there is a white dude at the top now because there is no competition left. If a Korean would still dominate, none of you would argue here. Bolllocks. Koreans have basically won everything they participated in from 1997 to 2016 (except for that guy Grrr), and when suddenly everything Korean disbanded because there are literally no viewers and proleague had to HIRE cheers girls to increase the live audience from 10 to 13 (or the infamous free burgers, still no one came), then suddenly some random white guy named Neeb no one heard about before could win something significant. And it is funny how copium here is so big, they immediately thought that foreigners must have caught up instead of there basically being no korean SC2 left anymore, except for some inactive korean dudes who live for the quick pathetic cash grab because the prize pool is so top heavy now, and koreans who have nothing else besides SC2 to make a living. Thats quite sad actually. If you stopped lying to yourself, then maybe this discussion may not be half as laughable lmao... GOATs are Innovation or Zest or someone else at that time, because they won the most when SC2 was at least in terms of competition at its peak. Anything before 2012 or after 2016 doesn't count.
I, for one, stopped playing entirely in HotS, and only came back to SC2 (my very favorite game of all time), when it went free to play. HotS was march 2013 until LotV in november 2015. I know the competition was great then, but can we really judge the greatest of ALL time on their results before or during the second to last expansion?
LOTV matters as much as HotS and WoL, in much the same way that original Starcraft results don't matter like Brood War results do. Does the worker change in modern LotV significantly change the game? Yes. But achievements and skill should be measured with respect to the game AND the competitive scene.
Maru absolutely still has a solid case for being the GOAT, regardless of extreme recency bias.
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United States33327 Posts
On June 15 2024 08:25 UnLarva wrote:
this comment is deletable as I only made a clarification. Needless to say, I will easily die on behalf of both ZombieGrub and Smix if ever needed and... I'm a Finn. However, I think they would do fine without me all the same, that said if things go hard.
Scarlett will handle anything and everything, anywhere and everywhere, anyway.] ;D
admirable stance, I advise you post it in a relevant thread and not go off on rant/tangents too often in unrelated threads 
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Messi aint no GOAT.
Thats Pelé, closely followed by Maradona. And thats it.
Messi comes right after, alongside Ronaldo Phenom (who's like MvP, with his injuries keeping him from higher numbers)
You know we can see you're from Brazil right? LOL
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On June 04 2024 00:40 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2024 00:08 Charoisaur wrote:On June 03 2024 23:31 swarminfestor wrote:On June 03 2024 23:13 Harris1st wrote:On June 03 2024 22:56 swarminfestor wrote:On June 03 2024 22:05 kajtarp wrote:On June 03 2024 20:31 swarminfestor wrote:On June 03 2024 16:33 UnLarva wrote:Ruotuväki / Veikka TammisuoWas it the first time ever when SC2 player won a tournament while serving in the military? Excellent Joona, bloody excellent! o7 Some more off-duty days (kuntoisuusloma) of training time should be granted for your distinguished, exemplary, and valiant effort! Korean military service is totally different from the Finish one. People like Rogue, Trap, Stats and others can't take hours practicing or making the moneys when doing the military service. So they are practically in "sleep mode" for a duration of two years. While Serral has been exempted from doing these prior to the tournament. So, we can't compare saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player to win the championship while doing service. This is unfair comparison to those who can't even play when doing military service . Yes, Serral's military service is much less restrict compared to Korea's military service. Also much shorter, yes. But his playtime is still restricted and only a fraction of a full time player's available practice time window. Yes, that's why I can't agree with the claim saying that Serral is the first Sc2 player winning tournament while doing military service because there is practically no one he can be compared to unless a person like Heromarine or Clem also has to do the military service in future, provided that he can still play Sc2 while doing the military service. Well, it's a fact that Serral won the tournament. It's also a fact that Serral is in the military. Not much to argue or agree here. How the different mandatory military services are comparable is another thing entirely though Therefore the "The first Sc2 player while doing military service" is not correct because there is no condition to meet or no one from foreigner lands he can be compared to. "The first Sc2 player while doing Finish military service" makes much more sense. He is the first sc2 player to win a tournament while doing military service. He's also the first sc2 player to participate in a tournament while doing military service It's kinda hilarious that we went from 90% of people not knowing there was mandatory service in Finland to everyone now claiming it's a big hurdle to clear. "Military Service" (within the StarCraft community) has always referred to an 18 month break mandated by the Korean govt (aka the end of your competitive career). There has to be a different term to describe these two very different forms of military service.
Sorry. Late to the party so this is from a few days ago.
We have one Maru fanboy not able to admit Serral won the tournament AND is performing military service. And another who finds it "hilarious" that people think military service a big hurdle. Like the fact that they didn't know it existed somehow changes the time commitment of the service. Well, he's played either 0 or 2 competitive games (depending on what you think of team league) since early February and has been restricted with practicing will his other main competitors are professional video game players.
Are you saying it's not a major disadvantage? Bit of a strange argument to make, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised considering the source.
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Seems like they're saying 18 months of not playing at all vs being able to get an office to practice while in the military are different levels of hindrance.
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On June 15 2024 15:01 Telephone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2024 11:20 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On June 13 2024 09:55 WombaT wrote:On June 13 2024 09:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On June 13 2024 09:36 radracer wrote:
The funny thing is, as a dude who never stopped watching/loving starcraft, when I tell people I know that used to be huge fans about Serral:
"Yo there's a Finnish dude that's the best player in the world right now!" They're like "neat, it's not koreans anymore?" and I'm like welllll SC2 isn't that popular in KR anymore, so there's more parity. And they're like "huh ok"
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom Yes, this whole GOAT debate only exists because SC2 is dead and there is a white dude at the top now because there is no competition left. If a Korean would still dominate, none of you would argue here. Bolllocks. Koreans have basically won everything they participated in from 1997 to 2016 (except for that guy Grrr), and when suddenly everything Korean disbanded because there are literally no viewers and proleague had to HIRE cheers girls to increase the live audience from 10 to 13 (or the infamous free burgers, still no one came), then suddenly some random white guy named Neeb no one heard about before could win something significant. And it is funny how copium here is so big, they immediately thought that foreigners must have caught up instead of there basically being no korean SC2 left anymore, except for some inactive korean dudes who live for the quick pathetic cash grab because the prize pool is so top heavy now, and koreans who have nothing else besides SC2 to make a living. Thats quite sad actually. If you stopped lying to yourself, then maybe this discussion may not be half as laughable lmao... GOATs are Innovation or Zest or someone else at that time, because they won the most when SC2 was at least in terms of competition at its peak. Anything before 2012 or after 2016 doesn't count. I, for one, stopped playing entirely in HotS, and only came back to SC2 (my very favorite game of all time), when it went free to play. HotS was march 2013 until LotV in november 2015. I know the competition was great then, but can we really judge the greatest of ALL time on their results before or during the second to last expansion? LOTV matters as much as HotS and WoL, in much the same way that original Starcraft results don't matter like Brood War results do. Does the worker change in modern LotV significantly change the game? Yes. But achievements and skill should be measured with respect to the game AND the competitive scene. Maru absolutely still has a solid case for being the GOAT, regardless of extreme receny bias.
Talking about each expansion, you can make the case for the most full resume:
MMA was the first to achieve triple crown(a win in each region Asia,Europe,America), was the first to have won a premier tournament in each expansion, and even won a premier tournament each year for 5 years straight.
He was succeeded by Polt though. He too achieved triple crown, was the second to have won a premier tournament in each expansion, and won a premier tournament each year for 6 years straight!
Polt for GOAT.
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On June 16 2024 07:41 radracer wrote:
Seems like they're saying 18 months of not playing at all vs being able to get an office to practice while in the military are different levels of hindrance.
That's not what they're saying. If they were saying that, that would make sense. Serral can both be performing military service AND Finnish military service not being as restrictive as Korean military service at the same time. Both can be true. The idea that Serral's military service is not a major disadvantage is wrong. Doesn't matter that it's different than Korean military service.
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The time span is another matter. Is there any way of measuring, even by proxying, the decrease in competition, and its effect on championship contenders numbers? By a mere speculation, is strongly feel that Serral has been such an outlier, that event if you extrapolated the 2014-16 population of top players to nowadays, and divided the current tourneys by this estimated number, Serrals performance would remain strong for GOAT status.
That would only prove his dominance not the fact that he is dominating when no one cares about the game anymore.
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On June 16 2024 09:26 Cactus66 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2024 07:41 radracer wrote:
Seems like they're saying 18 months of not playing at all vs being able to get an office to practice while in the military are different levels of hindrance. That's not what they're saying. If they were saying that, that would make sense. Serral can both be performing military service AND Finnish military service not being as restrictive as Korean military service at the same time. Both can be true. The idea that Serral's military service is not a major disadvantage is wrong. Doesn't matter that it's different than Korean military service.
from Oliveiras recap on IEM Katowice https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1d8xars/oliveira_did_a_small_recap_on_his_dallas_run/:
"Preparing Dallas, Oli thought he and Serral were probably one of a few practice partners that really practiced to the most and tried to push each other's limits. Some didn't practice too much because of injury (Maru's shoulder was mentioned), and some seemed a bit lost focus and discipline."
Doesn't seem like the major disadvantage you think it is if he was still able to practice more than most other players
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France12771 Posts
On June 16 2024 09:26 Cactus66 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2024 07:41 radracer wrote:
Seems like they're saying 18 months of not playing at all vs being able to get an office to practice while in the military are different levels of hindrance. That's not what they're saying. If they were saying that, that would make sense. Serral can both be performing military service AND Finnish military service not being as restrictive as Korean military service at the same time. Both can be true. The idea that Serral's military service is not a major disadvantage is wrong. Doesn't matter that it's different than Korean military service.
Even in Korea, each person situation is different depending on what unit they are affected. ByuN was able to ladder relatively often, so that’s why he was still strong after his service.
Some other players can’t practice too much, but maybe it helps their body recover from sc2 so it’s beneficial in a way etc.
Basically it depends on each person even for KR, and for Finnish I don’t have much knowledge on it but it seems light enough for it to be at worst slightly negative in terms of keeping your sc2 skill / level up to date.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://ruotuvaki.fi/documents/1951245/0/RV5_2024_Veikka_Tammisuo-2.jpg/a0e21abe-a07c-cc5e-4d4d-57b24bd885ab?t=1713854129526)
