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On June 16 2024 17:56 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2024 09:26 Cactus66 wrote:On June 16 2024 07:41 radracer wrote:
Seems like they're saying 18 months of not playing at all vs being able to get an office to practice while in the military are different levels of hindrance. That's not what they're saying. If they were saying that, that would make sense. Serral can both be performing military service AND Finnish military service not being as restrictive as Korean military service at the same time. Both can be true. The idea that Serral's military service is not a major disadvantage is wrong. Doesn't matter that it's different than Korean military service. from Oliveiras recap on IEM Katowice https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1d8xars/oliveira_did_a_small_recap_on_his_dallas_run/:"Preparing Dallas, Oli thought he and Serral were probably one of a few practice partners that really practiced to the most and tried to push each other's limits. Some didn't practice too much because of injury (Maru's shoulder was mentioned), and some seemed a bit lost focus and discipline." Doesn't seem like the major disadvantage you think it is if he was still able to practice more than most other players
The mainpoint seems to be that many other players did not practice much. Says nothing about how Serral’s preparation was different from normal. You can also have less time than others, but higher quality in your training. That it what it seems to have been in case of Serral.
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On June 16 2024 18:55 HeroSandro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2024 17:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 16 2024 09:26 Cactus66 wrote:On June 16 2024 07:41 radracer wrote:
Seems like they're saying 18 months of not playing at all vs being able to get an office to practice while in the military are different levels of hindrance. That's not what they're saying. If they were saying that, that would make sense. Serral can both be performing military service AND Finnish military service not being as restrictive as Korean military service at the same time. Both can be true. The idea that Serral's military service is not a major disadvantage is wrong. Doesn't matter that it's different than Korean military service. from Oliveiras recap on IEM Katowice https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1d8xars/oliveira_did_a_small_recap_on_his_dallas_run/:"Preparing Dallas, Oli thought he and Serral were probably one of a few practice partners that really practiced to the most and tried to push each other's limits. Some didn't practice too much because of injury (Maru's shoulder was mentioned), and some seemed a bit lost focus and discipline." Doesn't seem like the major disadvantage you think it is if he was still able to practice more than most other players The mainpoint seems to be that many other players did not practice much. Says nothing about how Serral’s preparation was different from normal. You can also have less time than others, but higher quality in your training. That it what it seems to have been in case of Serral.
Which would support the argument that results in 2024 shouldn't count much if the competitiveness of the scene declined so much that most players hardly practice anymore
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On June 16 2024 08:49 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2024 15:01 Telephone wrote:On June 13 2024 11:20 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On June 13 2024 09:55 WombaT wrote:On June 13 2024 09:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On June 13 2024 09:36 radracer wrote:
The funny thing is, as a dude who never stopped watching/loving starcraft, when I tell people I know that used to be huge fans about Serral:
"Yo there's a Finnish dude that's the best player in the world right now!" They're like "neat, it's not koreans anymore?" and I'm like welllll SC2 isn't that popular in KR anymore, so there's more parity. And they're like "huh ok"
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom Yes, this whole GOAT debate only exists because SC2 is dead and there is a white dude at the top now because there is no competition left. If a Korean would still dominate, none of you would argue here. Bolllocks. Koreans have basically won everything they participated in from 1997 to 2016 (except for that guy Grrr), and when suddenly everything Korean disbanded because there are literally no viewers and proleague had to HIRE cheers girls to increase the live audience from 10 to 13 (or the infamous free burgers, still no one came), then suddenly some random white guy named Neeb no one heard about before could win something significant. And it is funny how copium here is so big, they immediately thought that foreigners must have caught up instead of there basically being no korean SC2 left anymore, except for some inactive korean dudes who live for the quick pathetic cash grab because the prize pool is so top heavy now, and koreans who have nothing else besides SC2 to make a living. Thats quite sad actually. If you stopped lying to yourself, then maybe this discussion may not be half as laughable lmao... GOATs are Innovation or Zest or someone else at that time, because they won the most when SC2 was at least in terms of competition at its peak. Anything before 2012 or after 2016 doesn't count. I, for one, stopped playing entirely in HotS, and only came back to SC2 (my very favorite game of all time), when it went free to play. HotS was march 2013 until LotV in november 2015. I know the competition was great then, but can we really judge the greatest of ALL time on their results before or during the second to last expansion? LOTV matters as much as HotS and WoL, in much the same way that original Starcraft results don't matter like Brood War results do. Does the worker change in modern LotV significantly change the game? Yes. But achievements and skill should be measured with respect to the game AND the competitive scene. Maru absolutely still has a solid case for being the GOAT, regardless of extreme receny bias. Talking about each expansion, you can make the case for the most full resume: MMA was the first to achieve triple crown(a win in each region Asia,Europe,America), was the first to have won a premier tournament in each expansion, and even won a premier tournament each year for 5 years straight. He was succeeded by Polt though. He too achieved triple crown, was the second to have won a premier tournament in each expansion, and won a premier tournament each year for 6 years straight! Polt for GOAT.
Finally, a good take.
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On June 16 2024 19:29 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2024 18:55 HeroSandro wrote:On June 16 2024 17:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 16 2024 09:26 Cactus66 wrote:On June 16 2024 07:41 radracer wrote:
Seems like they're saying 18 months of not playing at all vs being able to get an office to practice while in the military are different levels of hindrance. That's not what they're saying. If they were saying that, that would make sense. Serral can both be performing military service AND Finnish military service not being as restrictive as Korean military service at the same time. Both can be true. The idea that Serral's military service is not a major disadvantage is wrong. Doesn't matter that it's different than Korean military service. from Oliveiras recap on IEM Katowice https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1d8xars/oliveira_did_a_small_recap_on_his_dallas_run/:"Preparing Dallas, Oli thought he and Serral were probably one of a few practice partners that really practiced to the most and tried to push each other's limits. Some didn't practice too much because of injury (Maru's shoulder was mentioned), and some seemed a bit lost focus and discipline." Doesn't seem like the major disadvantage you think it is if he was still able to practice more than most other players The mainpoint seems to be that many other players did not practice much. Says nothing about how Serral’s preparation was different from normal. You can also have less time than others, but higher quality in your training. That it what it seems to have been in case of Serral. Which would support the argument that results in 2024 shouldn't count much if the competitiveness of the scene declined so much that most players hardly practice anymore
How did you come from "Oliveira thought he and Serral were the only ones that practices to the fullest" to "no one practices anymore"?
Not to mention you basically could it also see this way: Koreans have just accepted they can't beat Serral in any way, so they don't bother 
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France12771 Posts
On June 16 2024 23:07 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2024 08:49 ejozl wrote:On June 15 2024 15:01 Telephone wrote:On June 13 2024 11:20 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On June 13 2024 09:55 WombaT wrote:On June 13 2024 09:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On June 13 2024 09:36 radracer wrote:
The funny thing is, as a dude who never stopped watching/loving starcraft, when I tell people I know that used to be huge fans about Serral:
"Yo there's a Finnish dude that's the best player in the world right now!" They're like "neat, it's not koreans anymore?" and I'm like welllll SC2 isn't that popular in KR anymore, so there's more parity. And they're like "huh ok"
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom Yes, this whole GOAT debate only exists because SC2 is dead and there is a white dude at the top now because there is no competition left. If a Korean would still dominate, none of you would argue here. Bolllocks. Koreans have basically won everything they participated in from 1997 to 2016 (except for that guy Grrr), and when suddenly everything Korean disbanded because there are literally no viewers and proleague had to HIRE cheers girls to increase the live audience from 10 to 13 (or the infamous free burgers, still no one came), then suddenly some random white guy named Neeb no one heard about before could win something significant. And it is funny how copium here is so big, they immediately thought that foreigners must have caught up instead of there basically being no korean SC2 left anymore, except for some inactive korean dudes who live for the quick pathetic cash grab because the prize pool is so top heavy now, and koreans who have nothing else besides SC2 to make a living. Thats quite sad actually. If you stopped lying to yourself, then maybe this discussion may not be half as laughable lmao... GOATs are Innovation or Zest or someone else at that time, because they won the most when SC2 was at least in terms of competition at its peak. Anything before 2012 or after 2016 doesn't count. I, for one, stopped playing entirely in HotS, and only came back to SC2 (my very favorite game of all time), when it went free to play. HotS was march 2013 until LotV in november 2015. I know the competition was great then, but can we really judge the greatest of ALL time on their results before or during the second to last expansion? LOTV matters as much as HotS and WoL, in much the same way that original Starcraft results don't matter like Brood War results do. Does the worker change in modern LotV significantly change the game? Yes. But achievements and skill should be measured with respect to the game AND the competitive scene. Maru absolutely still has a solid case for being the GOAT, regardless of extreme receny bias. Talking about each expansion, you can make the case for the most full resume: MMA was the first to achieve triple crown(a win in each region Asia,Europe,America), was the first to have won a premier tournament in each expansion, and even won a premier tournament each year for 5 years straight. He was succeeded by Polt though. He too achieved triple crown, was the second to have won a premier tournament in each expansion, and won a premier tournament each year for 6 years straight! Polt for GOAT. Finally, a good take.
Polt is one of the smartest sc2 players there was and it’s no surprise he has been successful in his other ventures, notably the coaching in LoL, but imho he was quite clean mechanically but not as fast as needed in order to match the great like INno and Maru
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On June 16 2024 19:29 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2024 18:55 HeroSandro wrote:On June 16 2024 17:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 16 2024 09:26 Cactus66 wrote:On June 16 2024 07:41 radracer wrote:
Seems like they're saying 18 months of not playing at all vs being able to get an office to practice while in the military are different levels of hindrance. That's not what they're saying. If they were saying that, that would make sense. Serral can both be performing military service AND Finnish military service not being as restrictive as Korean military service at the same time. Both can be true. The idea that Serral's military service is not a major disadvantage is wrong. Doesn't matter that it's different than Korean military service. from Oliveiras recap on IEM Katowice https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1d8xars/oliveira_did_a_small_recap_on_his_dallas_run/:"Preparing Dallas, Oli thought he and Serral were probably one of a few practice partners that really practiced to the most and tried to push each other's limits. Some didn't practice too much because of injury (Maru's shoulder was mentioned), and some seemed a bit lost focus and discipline." Doesn't seem like the major disadvantage you think it is if he was still able to practice more than most other players The mainpoint seems to be that many other players did not practice much. Says nothing about how Serral’s preparation was different from normal. You can also have less time than others, but higher quality in your training. That it what it seems to have been in case of Serral. Which would support the argument that results in 2024 shouldn't count much if the competitiveness of the scene declined so much that most players hardly practice anymore
I'd be more inclined to believe this, especially on the fringes, if there wasn't an event later this year with a million dollar payout, where placing 18th even nets you a cool $15k.
Now if you're one of the top dogs or a Maru/Clem/Cure, you're not going to practice as much with a realistic chance to win 80-400k?
How people slice that into a pro for Maru losing 8-0 in two consecutive grand finals is wild.
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On June 16 2024 23:07 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2024 08:49 ejozl wrote:On June 15 2024 15:01 Telephone wrote:On June 13 2024 11:20 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On June 13 2024 09:55 WombaT wrote:On June 13 2024 09:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On June 13 2024 09:36 radracer wrote:
The funny thing is, as a dude who never stopped watching/loving starcraft, when I tell people I know that used to be huge fans about Serral:
"Yo there's a Finnish dude that's the best player in the world right now!" They're like "neat, it's not koreans anymore?" and I'm like welllll SC2 isn't that popular in KR anymore, so there's more parity. And they're like "huh ok"
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom Yes, this whole GOAT debate only exists because SC2 is dead and there is a white dude at the top now because there is no competition left. If a Korean would still dominate, none of you would argue here. Bolllocks. Koreans have basically won everything they participated in from 1997 to 2016 (except for that guy Grrr), and when suddenly everything Korean disbanded because there are literally no viewers and proleague had to HIRE cheers girls to increase the live audience from 10 to 13 (or the infamous free burgers, still no one came), then suddenly some random white guy named Neeb no one heard about before could win something significant. And it is funny how copium here is so big, they immediately thought that foreigners must have caught up instead of there basically being no korean SC2 left anymore, except for some inactive korean dudes who live for the quick pathetic cash grab because the prize pool is so top heavy now, and koreans who have nothing else besides SC2 to make a living. Thats quite sad actually. If you stopped lying to yourself, then maybe this discussion may not be half as laughable lmao... GOATs are Innovation or Zest or someone else at that time, because they won the most when SC2 was at least in terms of competition at its peak. Anything before 2012 or after 2016 doesn't count. I, for one, stopped playing entirely in HotS, and only came back to SC2 (my very favorite game of all time), when it went free to play. HotS was march 2013 until LotV in november 2015. I know the competition was great then, but can we really judge the greatest of ALL time on their results before or during the second to last expansion? LOTV matters as much as HotS and WoL, in much the same way that original Starcraft results don't matter like Brood War results do. Does the worker change in modern LotV significantly change the game? Yes. But achievements and skill should be measured with respect to the game AND the competitive scene. Maru absolutely still has a solid case for being the GOAT, regardless of extreme receny bias. Talking about each expansion, you can make the case for the most full resume: MMA was the first to achieve triple crown(a win in each region Asia,Europe,America), was the first to have won a premier tournament in each expansion, and even won a premier tournament each year for 5 years straight. He was succeeded by Polt though. He too achieved triple crown, was the second to have won a premier tournament in each expansion, and won a premier tournament each year for 6 years straight! Polt for GOAT. Finally, a good take.
Life didn't win a LotV tournament, but achieved double triple crown and won at least 2 premiers each year for 4 years straight.
Serral didn't win a WoL, or HotS tournament, but he did achieve double triple crown and won at least 2 premiers each year for 7 years straight.
It's funny looking at Maru because he wasn't relevant in WoL. So, when Maru wins out on Serral due to longevity, it is a bit funny that we're only talking about + 2-3 years. He only won a premier tournament in 2013 and 2015, so more or less 2013-2014-2015 he was very relevant. I don't think this should be enough to make the difference, when Serral has been so dominating in the years that they have played together.
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On June 17 2024 02:51 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2024 19:29 Charoisaur wrote:On June 16 2024 18:55 HeroSandro wrote:On June 16 2024 17:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 16 2024 09:26 Cactus66 wrote:On June 16 2024 07:41 radracer wrote:
Seems like they're saying 18 months of not playing at all vs being able to get an office to practice while in the military are different levels of hindrance. That's not what they're saying. If they were saying that, that would make sense. Serral can both be performing military service AND Finnish military service not being as restrictive as Korean military service at the same time. Both can be true. The idea that Serral's military service is not a major disadvantage is wrong. Doesn't matter that it's different than Korean military service. from Oliveiras recap on IEM Katowice https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1d8xars/oliveira_did_a_small_recap_on_his_dallas_run/:"Preparing Dallas, Oli thought he and Serral were probably one of a few practice partners that really practiced to the most and tried to push each other's limits. Some didn't practice too much because of injury (Maru's shoulder was mentioned), and some seemed a bit lost focus and discipline." Doesn't seem like the major disadvantage you think it is if he was still able to practice more than most other players The mainpoint seems to be that many other players did not practice much. Says nothing about how Serral’s preparation was different from normal. You can also have less time than others, but higher quality in your training. That it what it seems to have been in case of Serral. Which would support the argument that results in 2024 shouldn't count much if the competitiveness of the scene declined so much that most players hardly practice anymore I'd be more inclined to believe this, especially on the fringes, if there wasn't an event later this year with a million dollar payout, where placing 18th even nets you a cool $15k. Now if you're one of the top dogs or a Maru/Clem/Cure, you're not going to practice as much with a realistic chance to win 80-400k? How people slice that into a pro for Maru losing 8-0 in two consecutive grand finals is wild.
I mean it's literally what Oliveira said. You might not believe him or he might be misinformed but that isn't something I "sliced" into it, if he directly said it
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On June 17 2024 04:20 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2024 02:51 Glorfindelio wrote:On June 16 2024 19:29 Charoisaur wrote:On June 16 2024 18:55 HeroSandro wrote:On June 16 2024 17:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 16 2024 09:26 Cactus66 wrote:On June 16 2024 07:41 radracer wrote:
Seems like they're saying 18 months of not playing at all vs being able to get an office to practice while in the military are different levels of hindrance. That's not what they're saying. If they were saying that, that would make sense. Serral can both be performing military service AND Finnish military service not being as restrictive as Korean military service at the same time. Both can be true. The idea that Serral's military service is not a major disadvantage is wrong. Doesn't matter that it's different than Korean military service. from Oliveiras recap on IEM Katowice https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1d8xars/oliveira_did_a_small_recap_on_his_dallas_run/:"Preparing Dallas, Oli thought he and Serral were probably one of a few practice partners that really practiced to the most and tried to push each other's limits. Some didn't practice too much because of injury (Maru's shoulder was mentioned), and some seemed a bit lost focus and discipline." Doesn't seem like the major disadvantage you think it is if he was still able to practice more than most other players The mainpoint seems to be that many other players did not practice much. Says nothing about how Serral’s preparation was different from normal. You can also have less time than others, but higher quality in your training. That it what it seems to have been in case of Serral. Which would support the argument that results in 2024 shouldn't count much if the competitiveness of the scene declined so much that most players hardly practice anymore I'd be more inclined to believe this, especially on the fringes, if there wasn't an event later this year with a million dollar payout, where placing 18th even nets you a cool $15k. Now if you're one of the top dogs or a Maru/Clem/Cure, you're not going to practice as much with a realistic chance to win 80-400k? How people slice that into a pro for Maru losing 8-0 in two consecutive grand finals is wild. I mean it's literally what Oliveira said. You might not believe him or he might be misinformed but that isn't something I "sliced" into it, if he directly said it
I don't think you or I have the full context of how much those personal interactions work--for example, Serral and Olive have been practice partners for years and know each other well. Clem and Serral don't like spamming games together, so who else would Serral have asked to hone his ZvT? On the flip side, who's better for Oliveira to practice against that's a willing partner.
The point being, you're taking his statement to use against Serral winning or something, which to me is weird considering he's currently in military. So even if it's obviously way less restrictive than Korean service, he's still practicing less with his attention more divided than usual. But Maru's health. But Solar's lost focus. But Reynor's slumping. Etc.
People make all kinds of justifications when the games and results are right there. Yet Maru could very conceivably come right back and win EWC.
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Northern Ireland24927 Posts
On June 17 2024 00:32 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2024 19:29 Charoisaur wrote:On June 16 2024 18:55 HeroSandro wrote:On June 16 2024 17:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 16 2024 09:26 Cactus66 wrote:On June 16 2024 07:41 radracer wrote:
Seems like they're saying 18 months of not playing at all vs being able to get an office to practice while in the military are different levels of hindrance. That's not what they're saying. If they were saying that, that would make sense. Serral can both be performing military service AND Finnish military service not being as restrictive as Korean military service at the same time. Both can be true. The idea that Serral's military service is not a major disadvantage is wrong. Doesn't matter that it's different than Korean military service. from Oliveiras recap on IEM Katowice https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1d8xars/oliveira_did_a_small_recap_on_his_dallas_run/:"Preparing Dallas, Oli thought he and Serral were probably one of a few practice partners that really practiced to the most and tried to push each other's limits. Some didn't practice too much because of injury (Maru's shoulder was mentioned), and some seemed a bit lost focus and discipline." Doesn't seem like the major disadvantage you think it is if he was still able to practice more than most other players The mainpoint seems to be that many other players did not practice much. Says nothing about how Serral’s preparation was different from normal. You can also have less time than others, but higher quality in your training. That it what it seems to have been in case of Serral. Which would support the argument that results in 2024 shouldn't count much if the competitiveness of the scene declined so much that most players hardly practice anymore How did you come from "Oliveira thought he and Serral were the only ones that practices to the fullest" to "no one practices anymore"? Not to mention you basically could it also see this way: Koreans have just accepted they can't beat Serral in any way, so they don't bother
I had took Oliveira to mean that Serral and himself were rare in being available to practice together, going 100% or close to in practice and being of a certain calibre.
Other players good enough to really push Serral, or even Oliveira in practice, are the same players you’ll be directly competing with so you don’t necessarily want to stick in a few hundred practice games.
I mean Maru could probably benefit from a few hundred games against someone similar in style and ability to Serral, Reynor may be a decent candidate but he already has a tough time against Maru, giving him tons of exposure to his play may give him even more of an edge.
Indeed it’s rare to even have players give a huge amount of insight into how they’re practicing, Oliveira here and Reynor previously being two such blokes. The latter famously played a lot of ZvT in archon mode ahead of some of his big WC wins, simply because you can’t get practice partners who can multitask like Maru or Clem, but a handicap match against slightly lower players can simulate that.
But yeah, I don’t think he was saying people aren’t practicing hard, not at all.
Perhaps there just being fewer top players, and most premiers will have the vast majority of them in the field does make it harder to get practice of a similar levels versus previous eras, that’s a fair observation.
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Northern Ireland24927 Posts
On June 16 2024 23:07 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2024 08:49 ejozl wrote:On June 15 2024 15:01 Telephone wrote:On June 13 2024 11:20 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On June 13 2024 09:55 WombaT wrote:On June 13 2024 09:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On June 13 2024 09:36 radracer wrote:
The funny thing is, as a dude who never stopped watching/loving starcraft, when I tell people I know that used to be huge fans about Serral:
"Yo there's a Finnish dude that's the best player in the world right now!" They're like "neat, it's not koreans anymore?" and I'm like welllll SC2 isn't that popular in KR anymore, so there's more parity. And they're like "huh ok"
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom Yes, this whole GOAT debate only exists because SC2 is dead and there is a white dude at the top now because there is no competition left. If a Korean would still dominate, none of you would argue here. Bolllocks. Koreans have basically won everything they participated in from 1997 to 2016 (except for that guy Grrr), and when suddenly everything Korean disbanded because there are literally no viewers and proleague had to HIRE cheers girls to increase the live audience from 10 to 13 (or the infamous free burgers, still no one came), then suddenly some random white guy named Neeb no one heard about before could win something significant. And it is funny how copium here is so big, they immediately thought that foreigners must have caught up instead of there basically being no korean SC2 left anymore, except for some inactive korean dudes who live for the quick pathetic cash grab because the prize pool is so top heavy now, and koreans who have nothing else besides SC2 to make a living. Thats quite sad actually. If you stopped lying to yourself, then maybe this discussion may not be half as laughable lmao... GOATs are Innovation or Zest or someone else at that time, because they won the most when SC2 was at least in terms of competition at its peak. Anything before 2012 or after 2016 doesn't count. I, for one, stopped playing entirely in HotS, and only came back to SC2 (my very favorite game of all time), when it went free to play. HotS was march 2013 until LotV in november 2015. I know the competition was great then, but can we really judge the greatest of ALL time on their results before or during the second to last expansion? LOTV matters as much as HotS and WoL, in much the same way that original Starcraft results don't matter like Brood War results do. Does the worker change in modern LotV significantly change the game? Yes. But achievements and skill should be measured with respect to the game AND the competitive scene. Maru absolutely still has a solid case for being the GOAT, regardless of extreme receny bias. Talking about each expansion, you can make the case for the most full resume: MMA was the first to achieve triple crown(a win in each region Asia,Europe,America), was the first to have won a premier tournament in each expansion, and even won a premier tournament each year for 5 years straight. He was succeeded by Polt though. He too achieved triple crown, was the second to have won a premier tournament in each expansion, and won a premier tournament each year for 6 years straight! Polt for GOAT. Finally, a good take.
For me the triple crown is more trivia than an actual notable achievement, but winning a premier in different versions of the game is probably one that goes rather underrated.
Especially with the move to Legacy being quite a big upheaval, I think sOs is a notable player whose strengths got neutered and couldn’t quite adapt to how the game changed.
Not to downplay the triple crown, but it’s not like a tournament in Europe or NA pose different challenges really. Whereas in tennis winning both a French Open and Wimbledon is a huge deal because the different surfaces ask very different questions of your game.
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On June 17 2024 22:49 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2024 23:07 Cricketer12 wrote:On June 16 2024 08:49 ejozl wrote:On June 15 2024 15:01 Telephone wrote:On June 13 2024 11:20 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On June 13 2024 09:55 WombaT wrote:On June 13 2024 09:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On June 13 2024 09:36 radracer wrote:
The funny thing is, as a dude who never stopped watching/loving starcraft, when I tell people I know that used to be huge fans about Serral:
"Yo there's a Finnish dude that's the best player in the world right now!" They're like "neat, it's not koreans anymore?" and I'm like welllll SC2 isn't that popular in KR anymore, so there's more parity. And they're like "huh ok"
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom Yes, this whole GOAT debate only exists because SC2 is dead and there is a white dude at the top now because there is no competition left. If a Korean would still dominate, none of you would argue here. Bolllocks. Koreans have basically won everything they participated in from 1997 to 2016 (except for that guy Grrr), and when suddenly everything Korean disbanded because there are literally no viewers and proleague had to HIRE cheers girls to increase the live audience from 10 to 13 (or the infamous free burgers, still no one came), then suddenly some random white guy named Neeb no one heard about before could win something significant. And it is funny how copium here is so big, they immediately thought that foreigners must have caught up instead of there basically being no korean SC2 left anymore, except for some inactive korean dudes who live for the quick pathetic cash grab because the prize pool is so top heavy now, and koreans who have nothing else besides SC2 to make a living. Thats quite sad actually. If you stopped lying to yourself, then maybe this discussion may not be half as laughable lmao... GOATs are Innovation or Zest or someone else at that time, because they won the most when SC2 was at least in terms of competition at its peak. Anything before 2012 or after 2016 doesn't count. I, for one, stopped playing entirely in HotS, and only came back to SC2 (my very favorite game of all time), when it went free to play. HotS was march 2013 until LotV in november 2015. I know the competition was great then, but can we really judge the greatest of ALL time on their results before or during the second to last expansion? LOTV matters as much as HotS and WoL, in much the same way that original Starcraft results don't matter like Brood War results do. Does the worker change in modern LotV significantly change the game? Yes. But achievements and skill should be measured with respect to the game AND the competitive scene. Maru absolutely still has a solid case for being the GOAT, regardless of extreme receny bias. Talking about each expansion, you can make the case for the most full resume: MMA was the first to achieve triple crown(a win in each region Asia,Europe,America), was the first to have won a premier tournament in each expansion, and even won a premier tournament each year for 5 years straight. He was succeeded by Polt though. He too achieved triple crown, was the second to have won a premier tournament in each expansion, and won a premier tournament each year for 6 years straight! Polt for GOAT. Finally, a good take. For me the triple crown is more trivia than an actual notable achievement, but winning a premier in different versions of the game is probably one that goes rather underrated. Especially with the move to Legacy being quite a big upheaval, I think sOs is a notable player whose strengths got neutered and couldn’t quite adapt to how the game changed. Not to downplay the triple crown, but it’s not like a tournament in Europe or NA pose different challenges really. Whereas in tennis winning both a French Open and Wimbledon is a huge deal because the different surfaces ask very different questions of your game.
The Triple Crown is an amazing feat, but you are right, it isn't really impactful. I definetly think you need to win something outside of your hometurf, be succesful outside of your "living room" as the german saying would go. But e.g. for a korean it doesn't really matter if he wins in Europe or NA, flighttimes are not that different, crowds are somewhat the same, you are in a foreign country and perhaps don't speak the language (very well)...all that is important. The kind of arbitrary decision where ESL hosts the tournament is not.
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On June 18 2024 01:34 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2024 22:49 WombaT wrote:On June 16 2024 23:07 Cricketer12 wrote:On June 16 2024 08:49 ejozl wrote:On June 15 2024 15:01 Telephone wrote:On June 13 2024 11:20 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On June 13 2024 09:55 WombaT wrote:On June 13 2024 09:41 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On June 13 2024 09:36 radracer wrote:
The funny thing is, as a dude who never stopped watching/loving starcraft, when I tell people I know that used to be huge fans about Serral:
"Yo there's a Finnish dude that's the best player in the world right now!" They're like "neat, it's not koreans anymore?" and I'm like welllll SC2 isn't that popular in KR anymore, so there's more parity. And they're like "huh ok"
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom Yes, this whole GOAT debate only exists because SC2 is dead and there is a white dude at the top now because there is no competition left. If a Korean would still dominate, none of you would argue here. Bolllocks. Koreans have basically won everything they participated in from 1997 to 2016 (except for that guy Grrr), and when suddenly everything Korean disbanded because there are literally no viewers and proleague had to HIRE cheers girls to increase the live audience from 10 to 13 (or the infamous free burgers, still no one came), then suddenly some random white guy named Neeb no one heard about before could win something significant. And it is funny how copium here is so big, they immediately thought that foreigners must have caught up instead of there basically being no korean SC2 left anymore, except for some inactive korean dudes who live for the quick pathetic cash grab because the prize pool is so top heavy now, and koreans who have nothing else besides SC2 to make a living. Thats quite sad actually. If you stopped lying to yourself, then maybe this discussion may not be half as laughable lmao... GOATs are Innovation or Zest or someone else at that time, because they won the most when SC2 was at least in terms of competition at its peak. Anything before 2012 or after 2016 doesn't count. I, for one, stopped playing entirely in HotS, and only came back to SC2 (my very favorite game of all time), when it went free to play. HotS was march 2013 until LotV in november 2015. I know the competition was great then, but can we really judge the greatest of ALL time on their results before or during the second to last expansion? LOTV matters as much as HotS and WoL, in much the same way that original Starcraft results don't matter like Brood War results do. Does the worker change in modern LotV significantly change the game? Yes. But achievements and skill should be measured with respect to the game AND the competitive scene. Maru absolutely still has a solid case for being the GOAT, regardless of extreme receny bias. Talking about each expansion, you can make the case for the most full resume: MMA was the first to achieve triple crown(a win in each region Asia,Europe,America), was the first to have won a premier tournament in each expansion, and even won a premier tournament each year for 5 years straight. He was succeeded by Polt though. He too achieved triple crown, was the second to have won a premier tournament in each expansion, and won a premier tournament each year for 6 years straight! Polt for GOAT. Finally, a good take. For me the triple crown is more trivia than an actual notable achievement, but winning a premier in different versions of the game is probably one that goes rather underrated. Especially with the move to Legacy being quite a big upheaval, I think sOs is a notable player whose strengths got neutered and couldn’t quite adapt to how the game changed. Not to downplay the triple crown, but it’s not like a tournament in Europe or NA pose different challenges really. Whereas in tennis winning both a French Open and Wimbledon is a huge deal because the different surfaces ask very different questions of your game. The Triple Crown is an amazing feat, but you are right, it isn't really impactful. I definetly think you need to win something outside of your hometurf, be succesful outside of your "living room" as the german saying would go. But e.g. for a korean it doesn't really matter if he wins in Europe or NA, flighttimes are not that different, crowds are somewhat the same, you are in a foreign country and perhaps don't speak the language (very well)...all that is important. The kind of arbitrary decision where ESL hosts the tournament is not.
The location of the offline event doesn't really matter. What matters is the caliber of opponents, the prizepool and the format. The rest is just fun anecdotes.
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I will now make my argument for Maru the GOAT, because what I do find impressive about Maru is actually his earnings.
He's #2 on earnings: $1,316,463, behind only #1 Serral at: $1,507,081. And this is despite the WCS "welfare" tournaments and what issues there may have been with balance.
I did an excel taking the top 10 earners of all time for each race and only used their earnings for years that they achieved top 10 for that race. This does have some implications, if you were an AFK pro gamer getting ro32 in GSL each season, you wouldn't make it into the top 10 earners for your race, so this is an arbitrary cut off point and my statistics should be taken with a grain of salt, but too be honest, I don't think it's too terrible to only account for the relevant years of a pro gamers life, we are discussing GOATs after all.
The big losers of this approach are: Special>SoO>Cure and so on, and the big winners are: Neeb>Classic/Scarlett/Showtime/Polt/MVP and so on.
Anyways, what I did was take "balance" into account, so if you're winning a lot while your race earned very little your earnings get boosted and vice versa. Balance based on earnings probably isn't the best approach, but it does tell you something.
Top 10 absolute disgusting abuser players of all time who benefited from an overpowered race (sarcasm included):
#1 SoO
#2 Dark
#3 Serral
#4 Rogue
#5 Scarlett
#6 Reynor
#7 Nerchio
#8 Solar
#9 Snute
#10 MVP
Top 10 respectable úber cool players of all time who have been struggling against balance, and definitely deserves hugs:
#1 Neeb
#2-3 Stats and herO
#4 Showtime
#5-6 INnoVation and Polt
#7 Maru
#8 Special
#9 MC
#10 ByuN
Taking top 10 earners for each race of all time, counting their years where they have been the top 10 earner for their race and on top of that taking "balance" into account we get:
#1 Maru +1
#2 Serral -1
#3 INnoVation +2
#4 Dark -1
#5 Rogue -1
#6 Zest +1
#7 Reynor -1
#8 TY
#9 Neeb +2
#10 Stats +2
#11 sOs -2
#12 herO +3
#13 ByuN
#14 Classic
#15 MC +2
#16 Solar -6
#17 Polt +4
#18 Life
#19 Oliveira +3
#20 Special +3
#21 PartinG -1
#22 MMA +3
#23 SoO -7
#24 Scarlett -5
#25 Showtime +1
#26 MVP -2
#27 Trap +1
#28 Cure -1
#29 Snute +1
#30 Nerchio -1
The numbers are how many positions the player jumped taking "balance" into account.
Maru overtakes Serral, Zergs who have only performed while Zerg has been on the up have taken massive hits, SoO, Solar and Scarlett. While Polt, herO, Oliveira, Special and MMA are jumping ahead quite some places.
After taking "balance" into account my top 10 earnings list goes from:
Serral>Maru>Dark>Rogue>INnoVation>Reynor>Zest>TY>sOs>Solar
to:
Maru>Serral>INnoVation>Dark>Rogue>Zest>Reynor>TY>Neeb>Stats
This means that we go from 5 Z, 3 T and 2 P -> 4 Z, 3 T and 3 P which is also perfect balance, so you cannot argue against the list, it's flawless.
But it does mean that Neeb and Stats go in, and sOs and Solar go out.
So there you have it: Neeb is Muad'Neeb figthing the struggle, SoO is the frontrunner of the patch Zerg infestation and Maru is your GOAT.
Also MC>MVP
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France12771 Posts
Pretty interesting analysis, thanks for sharing.
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Torture the data enough, and eventually it will confess.
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On June 18 2024 23:26 TheDougler wrote:
Torture the data enough, and eventually it will confess.
This is possibly the best wording of this particular idea I have ever encountered, and will be imprinted in my brain until it falls apart.
Thank-you for this.
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Northern Ireland24927 Posts
On June 19 2024 01:00 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2024 23:26 TheDougler wrote:
Torture the data enough, and eventually it will confess. This is possibly the best wording of this particular idea I have ever encountered, and will be imprinted in my brain until it falls apart. Thank-you for this.
I second this
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This has very limited use because even if the game was perfectly balanced at all points of time, the chances that the talent in all 3 races is evenly distributed throughout time is essentially 0.
Flipping a coin and rolling dice are examples of evenly balanced probabilities. If you had rolled a three sided die and used this as tournament results it would still appear uneven. If you then attempted to "balance" these tournament results the exercise makes no sense.
So this logic doesn't even work in a statistically proven experiment.
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They are just earnings. I cannot see a way to justify Maru as the GOAT without using balance, and his earnings are excellent, though this is achieved by a long career.
Zest and Showtime achieved top 10 P earnings 9 times.
Maru achieved it 10 times.
Scarlett achieved it 12 times.
So naturally this stacks up.
Presenting:
Top 10 average income using years the player was in the top 10 earnings for their race:
#1 Serral
#2 Rogue
#3 MVP
#4 TY
#5 Maru
#6 Dark
#7 Life
#8 Stats
#9 Reynor
#10 SoO
And now applying "balance":
#1 Serral
#2 Maru
#3 Rogue
#4 TY
#5 Stats
#6 MVP
#7 Life
#8 MC
#9 INnoVation
#10 ByuN
This is a pretty interesting list.
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EPT
