On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote: After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD
Serral is a strong GOAT pick. However, until SC2 goes the way of AoE2 and forces players to pick random races or eliminate the races they don't want to face on certain maps, we will never be able to tease out player skill from racial strength and map pool
On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote: After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD
Serral is a strong GOAT pick. However, until SC2 goes the way of AoE2 and forces players to pick random races or eliminate the races they don't want to face on certain maps, we will never be able to tease out player skill from racial strength and map pool
I love how AoE 2 works, but you really can't compare that to SC2 (or any Blizzard RTS for that matter). The mappool isn't build for that, the races are extremly distinct compared to AoE 2 and there is honestly not much fun with only three races to even have this procedure.
Focusing on one race and mastering it is the core of SC2. But it is kind of interesting how this was never really an issue, but since Dallas suddenly it becomes more and more of a criteria for some people...weird, but okay Honestly can't wait when Messi gets his GOAT-status revoked because he never proved to be a good goalkeeper.
On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote: After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD
Serral is a strong GOAT pick. However, until SC2 goes the way of AoE2 and forces players to pick random races or eliminate the races they don't want to face on certain maps, we will never be able to tease out player skill from racial strength and map pool
I love how AoE 2 works, but you really can't compare that to SC2 (or any Blizzard RTS for that matter). The mappool isn't build for that, the races are extremly distinct compared to AoE 2 and there is honestly not much fun with only three races to even have this procedure.
Focusing on one race and mastering it is the core of SC2. But it is kind of interesting how this was never really an issue, but since Dallas suddenly it becomes more and more of a criteria for some people...weird, but okay Honestly can't wait when Messi gets his GOAT-status revoked because he never proved to be a good goalkeeper.
Weird way of spelling Ronaldo.
Just wanting to make the point that there isn't even remotely a consensus on a footballing GOAT. Also, goalkeeping is so different from playing outfield (goalkeeper here!) that it may as well be a different sport!
On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote: After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD
Serral is a strong GOAT pick. However, until SC2 goes the way of AoE2 and forces players to pick random races or eliminate the races they don't want to face on certain maps, we will never be able to tease out player skill from racial strength and map pool
I love how AoE 2 works, but you really can't compare that to SC2 (or any Blizzard RTS for that matter). The mappool isn't build for that, the races are extremly distinct compared to AoE 2 and there is honestly not much fun with only three races to even have this procedure.
Focusing on one race and mastering it is the core of SC2. But it is kind of interesting how this was never really an issue, but since Dallas suddenly it becomes more and more of a criteria for some people...weird, but okay Honestly can't wait when Messi gets his GOAT-status revoked because he never proved to be a good goalkeeper.
Weird way of spelling Ronaldo.
Just wanting to make the point that there isn't even remotely a consensus on a footballing GOAT. Also, goalkeeping is so different from playing outfield (goalkeeper here!) that it may as well be a different sport!
When I wrote it I instantly had "how long for the first Ronaldo-guy?" in my mind But the point still stands. Neither Messi, nor Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Pele, Beckenbauer, Maradona or whoever you want to name as a football-GOAT ever played goalkeeper or atleast different places or atleast hugely different roles/positions on the field. Can we really say how good C. Ronaldo is until he won something as a defender? Just the thought is silly.
Or to go with Esports: I don't think I have ever heard the phrase "nah, Faker can't be the GOAT, he never played Support!"
On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote: After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD
Serral is a strong GOAT pick. However, until SC2 goes the way of AoE2 and forces players to pick random races or eliminate the races they don't want to face on certain maps, we will never be able to tease out player skill from racial strength and map pool
I love how AoE 2 works, but you really can't compare that to SC2 (or any Blizzard RTS for that matter). The mappool isn't build for that, the races are extremly distinct compared to AoE 2 and there is honestly not much fun with only three races to even have this procedure.
Focusing on one race and mastering it is the core of SC2. But it is kind of interesting how this was never really an issue, but since Dallas suddenly it becomes more and more of a criteria for some people...weird, but okay Honestly can't wait when Messi gets his GOAT-status revoked because he never proved to be a good goalkeeper.
Weird way of spelling Ronaldo.
Just wanting to make the point that there isn't even remotely a consensus on a footballing GOAT. Also, goalkeeping is so different from playing outfield (goalkeeper here!) that it may as well be a different sport!
When I wrote it I instantly had "how long for the first Ronaldo-guy?" in my mind But the point still stands. Neither Messi, nor Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Pele, Beckenbauer, Maradona or whoever you want to name as a football-GOAT ever played goalkeeper or atleast different places or atleast hugely different roles/positions on the field. Can we really say how good C. Ronaldo is until he won something as a defender? Just the thought is silly.
Or to go with Esports: I don't think I have ever heard the phrase "nah, Faker can't be the GOAT, he never played Support!"
Giroud played keeper early this season for Milan. Which brings me back to this rather fitting video.
On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote: After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD
Serral is a strong GOAT pick. However, until SC2 goes the way of AoE2 and forces players to pick random races or eliminate the races they don't want to face on certain maps, we will never be able to tease out player skill from racial strength and map pool
I love how AoE 2 works, but you really can't compare that to SC2 (or any Blizzard RTS for that matter). The mappool isn't build for that, the races are extremly distinct compared to AoE 2 and there is honestly not much fun with only three races to even have this procedure.
Focusing on one race and mastering it is the core of SC2. But it is kind of interesting how this was never really an issue, but since Dallas suddenly it becomes more and more of a criteria for some people...weird, but okay Honestly can't wait when Messi gets his GOAT-status revoked because he never proved to be a good goalkeeper.
If anything, race deserves far more focus in SC2 because the units and mechanics of each are wildly different.
Re: this never being an issue, how long have you been following sc2...? There have been multi-year stretches in which everyone agreed Zerg was, well, easier.
Do I think Serral could be the better player? Of course! Can I say that with confidence without having any way of normalizing the unknown variable that is racial strength? No, I can't. For all we know, herO is actually the best living SC2 player but picked the worst race.
The funny thing is, as a dude who never stopped watching/loving starcraft, when I tell people I know that used to be huge fans about Serral:
"Yo there's a Finnish dude that's the best player in the world right now!" They're like "neat, it's not koreans anymore?" and I'm like welllll SC2 isn't that popular in KR anymore, so there's more parity. And they're like "huh ok"
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom
On June 13 2024 09:36 radracer wrote: The funny thing is, as a dude who never stopped watching/loving starcraft, when I tell people I know that used to be huge fans about Serral:
"Yo there's a Finnish dude that's the best player in the world right now!" They're like "neat, it's not koreans anymore?" and I'm like welllll SC2 isn't that popular in KR anymore, so there's more parity. And they're like "huh ok"
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom
Yes, this whole GOAT debate only exists because SC2 is dead and there is a white dude at the top now because there is no competition left. If a Korean would still dominate, none of you would argue here.
On June 13 2024 09:36 radracer wrote: The funny thing is, as a dude who never stopped watching/loving starcraft, when I tell people I know that used to be huge fans about Serral:
"Yo there's a Finnish dude that's the best player in the world right now!" They're like "neat, it's not koreans anymore?" and I'm like welllll SC2 isn't that popular in KR anymore, so there's more parity. And they're like "huh ok"
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom
Yes, this whole GOAT debate only exists because SC2 is dead and there is a white dude at the top now because there is no competition left. If a Korean would still dominate, none of you would argue here.
On June 13 2024 09:36 radracer wrote: The funny thing is, as a dude who never stopped watching/loving starcraft, when I tell people I know that used to be huge fans about Serral:
"Yo there's a Finnish dude that's the best player in the world right now!" They're like "neat, it's not koreans anymore?" and I'm like welllll SC2 isn't that popular in KR anymore, so there's more parity. And they're like "huh ok"
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom
I think this is the reason many consider Maru the GOAT no matter what, he was good in a period of the game when there where more invested viewers and the scene was bigger.
Post 2018 the scene was just too small and vierwship much scarce, so even if Serral won a bazillion tournaments the hype just isn't the same.
And at the end that is the biggest issue, the whole GOAT thing is so subjective that people will always give more weight to the era when they were more invested in the game so Maru will always have a spot in people hearts in that regard against Serral who only began to be truly good when the scene was already shrinking.
On June 13 2024 09:36 radracer wrote: The funny thing is, as a dude who never stopped watching/loving starcraft, when I tell people I know that used to be huge fans about Serral:
"Yo there's a Finnish dude that's the best player in the world right now!" They're like "neat, it's not koreans anymore?" and I'm like welllll SC2 isn't that popular in KR anymore, so there's more parity. And they're like "huh ok"
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom
Yes, this whole GOAT debate only exists because SC2 is dead and there is a white dude at the top now because there is no competition left. If a Korean would still dominate, none of you would argue here.
Bolllocks.
Koreans have basically won everything they participated in from 1997 to 2016 (except for that guy Grrr), and when suddenly everything Korean disbanded because there are literally no viewers and proleague had to HIRE cheers girls to increase the live audience from 10 to 13 (or the infamous free burgers, still no one came), then suddenly some random white guy named Neeb no one heard about before could win something significant.
And it is funny how copium here is so big, they immediately thought that foreigners must have caught up instead of there basically being no korean SC2 left anymore, except for some inactive korean dudes who live for the quick pathetic cash grab because the prize pool is so top heavy now, and koreans who have nothing else besides SC2 to make a living. Thats quite sad actually.
If you stopped lying to yourself, then maybe this discussion may not be half as laughable lmao...
GOATs are Innovation or Zest or someone else at that time, because they won the most when SC2 was at least in terms of competition at its peak. Anything before 2012 or after 2016 doesn't count.
On June 13 2024 09:36 radracer wrote: The funny thing is, as a dude who never stopped watching/loving starcraft, when I tell people I know that used to be huge fans about Serral:
"Yo there's a Finnish dude that's the best player in the world right now!" They're like "neat, it's not koreans anymore?" and I'm like welllll SC2 isn't that popular in KR anymore, so there's more parity. And they're like "huh ok"
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom
Yes, this whole GOAT debate only exists because SC2 is dead and there is a white dude at the top now because there is no competition left. If a Korean would still dominate, none of you would argue here.
Bolllocks.
Koreans have basically won everything they participated in from 1997 to 2016 (except for that guy Grrr), and when suddenly everything Korean disbanded because there are literally no viewers and proleague had to HIRE cheers girls to increase the live audience from 10 to 13 (or the infamous free burgers, still no one came), then suddenly some random white guy named Neeb no one heard about before could win something significant.
And it is funny how copium here is so big, they immediately thought that foreigners must have caught up instead of there basically being no korean SC2 left anymore, except for some inactive korean dudes who live for the quick pathetic cash grab because the prize pool is so top heavy now, and koreans who have nothing else besides SC2 to make a living. Thats quite sad actually.
If you stopped lying to yourself, then maybe this discussion may not be half as laughable lmao...
GOATs are Innovation or Zest or someone else at that time, because they won the most when SC2 was at least in terms of competition at its peak. Anything before 2012 or after 2016 doesn't count.
this type of reply is funny, in that its reasoning is so tied to narratives, that fall apart with just some simple observations
if post 2016 doesnt count why didn't the level of play drop significantly after 2016? its not like 50 top koreans left and we had a talent puddle. pretty much every top player for each race stayed in the scene. the broodwar gods eventually went back to starcraft 1, but flash, jaedong, stork all plateaued pretty significantly anyways. they werent going to be competing competitively against rogue classic or innovation etc.
also so many new things happened in that period and post. players stopped laddering 15 hours a day and started to watch replays far more, practice partners evolved, now we have 4v1's for prepping. mapmakers found a rough formula layout to make fair, but exciting games. bases ran out faster encouraging more diverse games. how many effing matches did we watch where a 2 base allin barely didnt work, and we watched a repeat because the mineral counts allowed it to happen. the games back in 2013-2016 are like watching NFL games from the 50s, and comparing it to the towering juggernauts warring today on the field. everyone tip top shape and insanely disciplined.
if you want to look at an actually fun narrative, think of how when serral came out of nowhere 2018, the entire Korean community tried to stop him and floundered. their playstyles were outdated, serral was simply more robust and seemed invincible at times. koreans started to copy his playstyle, they found weaknesses and managed to beat him. the game then continued to evolve ... but so did serral. serral quite literally elevated the level of play that could be achieved in starcraft 2.
to say copium, and argue against someone just because they werent part of that 2013-2016 korean dominated scene is wacky stuff.
Serral has easily earned his place shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Rogue, Inno, Maru and MVP.
On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote: After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD
Serral is a strong GOAT pick. However, until SC2 goes the way of AoE2 and forces players to pick random races or eliminate the races they don't want to face on certain maps, we will never be able to tease out player skill from racial strength and map pool
I love how AoE 2 works, but you really can't compare that to SC2 (or any Blizzard RTS for that matter). The mappool isn't build for that, the races are extremly distinct compared to AoE 2 and there is honestly not much fun with only three races to even have this procedure.
Focusing on one race and mastering it is the core of SC2. But it is kind of interesting how this was never really an issue, but since Dallas suddenly it becomes more and more of a criteria for some people...weird, but okay Honestly can't wait when Messi gets his GOAT-status revoked because he never proved to be a good goalkeeper.
If anything, race deserves far more focus in SC2 because the units and mechanics of each are wildly different.
Re: this never being an issue, how long have you been following sc2...? There have been multi-year stretches in which everyone agreed Zerg was, well, easier.
Do I think Serral could be the better player? Of course! Can I say that with confidence without having any way of normalizing the unknown variable that is racial strength? No, I can't. For all we know, herO is actually the best living SC2 player but picked the worst race.
Yes, it mostly is an issue concerning Serral. When Serral wins, Zerg is clearly OP, no matter any other results. When Maru wins, he suddenly is the Terran Hope and Fourth Race, even when the finals are TvT...and yes, that is an oversimplification, but this is clearly an anti-Serral and not so much an anti-Zerg argument.
then suddenly some random white guy named Neeb no one heard about before could win something significant.
I really love how this guy has absolutely no clue about SC2 and is basically just here for a weird BroodWar-wank...yet also does not participate in any actual BroodWar debate. Why exactly are you here again, except for some pretty weak trolling?
I feel like that sums up the goat debate pretty well. Serral is very well the goat to those who are modern fans but the modern era is just nothing compared to prime SC in terms of competition & fandom
Each era clearly brings its own bias. If you spend your youth cheering for player X who was the very best you won't just change your opinion to player Y when that guy becomes better ten years after you watched. But in the end, it isn't a popularity vote (though that always plays into it), it is about achievements. And in that regard, Serral aswell as Maru leave every other player who ever touched this game except for Rogue clearly in the dust.
Also, as a last correction: Popularity has nothing to do with the level of skill a scene can produce. WC3 was out in Korea since 2004 or early 2005, yet Korea stayed the dominating nation until like 2009ish when the Chinese took over. A player doesn't become magically worse at the game just because the fanbase in his proximitiy decreases. The effect is only long-term, with new talent stopping to come in.
Player quantity has been declining a long time, but simultaneously average quality of remaining players at the top of the scene has been increasing. Overall volatility has been diminishing, and one simply cannot easily cheese and smurf to a success among the best. In other words, level of competition at the top haven't been declining as fast as overall competition within the scene as a whole. Serral has enormous impact to the present state of the scene. It is not that outlandish to assume the SC2 would be now a lot worse state without Serral's rise 2017-18. For years fans waited for the never coming match Serral vs Maru, and then when they became happen frequently, results have been unexpectedly one-sided in favor of Joona. Crystallisation of skill at the very top of the competition, all times included.
When it can be rightfully argued there was a period of Zerg OP years ago, the balance issues have been diminishing value as an explanation for Serral's success. That argument doesn't hold much water anymore, when he is one of main reasons for Zerg nerfs of present patches, still managing to hold on, while other Zergs have demonstrated declining tournament success. Even partially self-imposed 'mandatory military service' - handicap (yes, he could've likely been able to delay the start of his service year or two further) didn't make much dent to his performance and form.
Serral have been good for continuation of the SC2 competition at the highest levels, but how long that will continue if he really becomes good... uh... Overmind.
Maru should actively seek Serral to be his training partner. For the good of the whole scene.
What happens when Maru starts his Military? I don't know how things are organised in Korean military, but apparently Esports career isn't any kind difference-maker to determine or impact on how the service branch and duty is assigned, considering varying time needed from Korean military returnees to re-adjust to the gaming after their time in the military.
To Serral his military service doesn't seem to form difficult or insurmountable obstacle career-wise. It maybe even contrary to that. Joona is the very first Esports Pro-Gamer that actually started his service in the FDF Sports School, and what kind guy he is. Finnish Defence Forces probably use a lot of Joona's experience and insights in their own creation process of organising functional military curriculum, proper roles, infrastructure, and organisation in needs to integrate new esports- sub-branch for future incoming pro-gamer conscripts. It isn't hard to imagine that for Joona such regimented environment with room for his personal input could be even highly inspiring, motivating, and interesting place to be. It's clear that FDF got a hell of World Class Specialist in the character of conscript Joona Sotala. At least in Finnish context, he is the pioneer in these military related matters.
Hopefully Korean Military can do some rethinking in these matters too...
On June 13 2024 14:21 UnLarva wrote: What happens when Maru starts his Military? I don't know how things are organised in Korean military, but apparently Esports career isn't any kind difference-maker to determine or impact on how the service branch and duty is assigned, considering varying time needed from Korean military returnees to re-adjust to the gaming after their time in the military.
To Serral his military service doesn't seem to form difficult or insurmountable obstacle career-wise. It maybe even contrary to that. Joona is the very first Esports Pro-Gamer that actually started his service in the FDF Sports School, and what kind guy he is. Finnish Defence Forces probably use a lot of Joona's experience and insights in their own creation process of organising functional military curriculum, proper roles, infrastructure, and organisation in needs to integrate new esports- sub-branch for future incoming pro-gamer conscripts. It isn't hard to imagine that for Joona such regimented environment with room for his personal input could be even highly inspiring, motivating, and interesting place to be. It's clear that FDF got a hell of World Class Specialist in the character of conscript Joona Sotala. At least in Finnish context, he is the pioneer in these military related matters.
Hopefully Korean Military can do some rethinking in these matters too...
I read Maru doesn't have to do military service since he won 2018 Asian Games (Counts as Olympics or something)
On June 13 2024 14:21 UnLarva wrote: What happens when Maru starts his Military? I don't know how things are organised in Korean military, but apparently Esports career isn't any kind difference-maker to determine or impact on how the service branch and duty is assigned, considering varying time needed from Korean military returnees to re-adjust to the gaming after their time in the military.
To Serral his military service doesn't seem to form difficult or insurmountable obstacle career-wise. It maybe even contrary to that. Joona is the very first Esports Pro-Gamer that actually started his service in the FDF Sports School, and what kind guy he is. Finnish Defence Forces probably use a lot of Joona's experience and insights in their own creation process of organising functional military curriculum, proper roles, infrastructure, and organisation in needs to integrate new esports- sub-branch for future incoming pro-gamer conscripts. It isn't hard to imagine that for Joona such regimented environment with room for his personal input could be even highly inspiring, motivating, and interesting place to be. It's clear that FDF got a hell of World Class Specialist in the character of conscript Joona Sotala. At least in Finnish context, he is the pioneer in these military related matters.
Hopefully Korean Military can do some rethinking in these matters too...
I read Maru doesn't have to do military service since he won 2018 Asian Games (Counts as Olympics or something)
Even if he has to do service, he's only 26. He can stay around for another year or two before the govt really starts bothering him.
On June 11 2024 04:56 Furaijin wrote: After Serral getting the official GOAT trophy and 4:0 -ing Maru once again; wasnt even close btw.. just like last time... shouldnt this post u know... not be here xDDDDDD
What official goat trophy are you talking about?
At the end of the last big tourney last weekend; Serral won that tourney and because he won his 10th big tourney in a row they officially gave him a GOAT trophy! Which was VERY accurate; unlike this post of this guy who is clearly full of it and doesnt know facts from his opinions xDDDDD
It's a good discussion and I actually agree with both sides. I see a parallel to the rock music scene 60->90, there was a huge uptick in rock stars in the early years and general talent, then for reasons this diminished, but it didn't stop the musicians from getting more and more proficient and you can hear that in the music of the 70's, 80's and 90's, but eventually it died out, or mutated.
The point is, let's say Korean player A, practices 100% for 5x years, but then practices 60% in the following 5x years. Overall his skill is improving, but his progression is diminishing.
Then we have foreign player B and he practices 90% every year, this player would be significantly behind, but eventually he would catch up and overtake the Korean player A.
Obviously it's not as simple as that, but I do find an element of this to be the case.
EPT
