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On February 02 2024 02:51 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2024 02:41 Locutus_ wrote:On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote:
It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically) Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon? Maru? DRG? Gumiho? Actually way crazier than that. The four players who achieved that feat are: MaNa, Polt, PartinG and MMA Maru/Gumiho never reached Top 2 in WoL, DRG never did it after WoL
Shoutouts to the close-but-not-quite that came to my mind :
- Innovation who got ro4 in a WoL GSL, losing to HyuN.
- Creator who never made a finals in HotS
- Rain who likely would have made a finals in LotV had he continued to play
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Northern Ireland27041 Posts
On February 02 2024 03:10 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2024 02:51 Balnazza wrote:On February 02 2024 02:41 Locutus_ wrote:On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote:
It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically) Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon? Maru? DRG? Gumiho? Actually way crazier than that. The four players who achieved that feat are: MaNa, Polt, PartinG and MMA Maru/Gumiho never reached Top 2 in WoL, DRG never did it after WoL Shoutouts to the close-but-not-quite that came to my mind : - Innovation who got ro4 in a WoL GSL, losing to HyuN. - Creator who never made a finals in HotS - Rain who likely would have made a finals in LotV had he continued to play
It’s still wild to me how good Creator was almost out of the gate in bursting onto the scene, and how it took til latter LoTV for him to put in some deep runs again. Fair play to the lad for sticking at it!
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United States1939 Posts
On February 02 2024 03:17 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2024 03:10 Durnuu wrote:On February 02 2024 02:51 Balnazza wrote:On February 02 2024 02:41 Locutus_ wrote:On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote:
It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically) Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon? Maru? DRG? Gumiho? Actually way crazier than that. The four players who achieved that feat are: MaNa, Polt, PartinG and MMA Maru/Gumiho never reached Top 2 in WoL, DRG never did it after WoL Shoutouts to the close-but-not-quite that came to my mind : - Innovation who got ro4 in a WoL GSL, losing to HyuN. - Creator who never made a finals in HotS - Rain who likely would have made a finals in LotV had he continued to play It’s still wild to me how good Creator was almost out of the gate in bursting onto the scene, and how it took til latter LoTV for him to put in some deep runs again. Fair play to the lad for sticking at it!
You are severely understating how unlikely Creator having that late career renaissance was. From 2014-2018 (a period that includes 21 seasons of code s/ssl) Creator only qualified for Code S/SSL five times. When he did he always lost in the first round.
He started qualifying more regularly in 2019, but even then he lost in the first round like eight straight seasons and failed to qualify a few more times before randomly being very above average in 2022. So strange.
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Northern Ireland27041 Posts
On February 02 2024 06:17 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2024 03:17 WombaT wrote:On February 02 2024 03:10 Durnuu wrote:On February 02 2024 02:51 Balnazza wrote:On February 02 2024 02:41 Locutus_ wrote:On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote:
It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically) Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon? Maru? DRG? Gumiho? Actually way crazier than that. The four players who achieved that feat are: MaNa, Polt, PartinG and MMA Maru/Gumiho never reached Top 2 in WoL, DRG never did it after WoL Shoutouts to the close-but-not-quite that came to my mind : - Innovation who got ro4 in a WoL GSL, losing to HyuN. - Creator who never made a finals in HotS - Rain who likely would have made a finals in LotV had he continued to play It’s still wild to me how good Creator was almost out of the gate in bursting onto the scene, and how it took til latter LoTV for him to put in some deep runs again. Fair play to the lad for sticking at it! You are severely understating how unlikely Creator having that late career renaissance was. From 2014-2018 (a period that includes 21 seasons of code s/ssl) Creator only qualified for Code S/SSL five times. When he did he always lost in the first round. He started qualifying more regularly in 2019, but even then he lost in the first round like eight straight seasons and failed to qualify a few more times before randomly being very above average in 2022. So strange.
Oh yeah it is strange indeed, you laid out the weirdness quite well. My personal hypothesis is young teen Creator went in pretty fearless as youths do, then after that initial breakthrough the pressure crippled him, and latterly something clicked mentality wise
Indeed I can’t really think of any other explanation!
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Maybe I'm miss-remembering, but wasn't Creator also quite famous for not being able to win against Zerg even if his life depended on it? Like he would lose to basically every korean Zerg out there?
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On February 02 2024 02:51 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2024 02:41 Locutus_ wrote:On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote:
It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically) Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon? Maru? DRG? Gumiho? Actually way crazier than that. The four players who achieved that feat are: MaNa, Polt, PartinG and MMA Maru/Gumiho never reached Top 2 in WoL, DRG never did it after WoL
MMA got a finals in LOTV? WCS EU?
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Parting is coming back again... slowly but surely. Hes trading out pretty well against zergs.
Hes such a juggernaut for me
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France12953 Posts
On February 02 2024 08:21 Locutus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2024 02:51 Balnazza wrote:On February 02 2024 02:41 Locutus_ wrote:On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote:
It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically) Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon? Maru? DRG? Gumiho? Actually way crazier than that. The four players who achieved that feat are: MaNa, Polt, PartinG and MMA Maru/Gumiho never reached Top 2 in WoL, DRG never did it after WoL MMA got a finals in LOTV? WCS EU?
AFAIK it’s the first HSC versus FireCake (and he won it)
 HomeStory Cup/12
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I am checking tl every hour for the latest article - that's how you can tell it's a good series
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On February 02 2024 08:38 Pandain wrote:
I am checking tl every hour for the latest article - that's how you can tell it's a good series
I'm checking every day, being sure that the next part is live every time :-)
cant wait!! such a great series and i love reading the discussions
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United States1939 Posts
On February 03 2024 20:46 SharkStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2024 08:38 Pandain wrote:
I am checking tl every hour for the latest article - that's how you can tell it's a good series I'm checking every day, being sure that the next part is live every time :-) cant wait!! such a great series and i love reading the discussions
Thanks for your patience and I'm glad you're enjoying the series.
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On February 03 2024 21:11 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 20:46 SharkStarcraft wrote:On February 02 2024 08:38 Pandain wrote:
I am checking tl every hour for the latest article - that's how you can tell it's a good series I'm checking every day, being sure that the next part is live every time :-) cant wait!! such a great series and i love reading the discussions Thanks for your patience and I'm glad you're enjoying the series.
Im also pretty anxious for your subsequent 11th - 20th GOAT list
:p
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On February 03 2024 21:11 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 20:46 SharkStarcraft wrote:On February 02 2024 08:38 Pandain wrote:
I am checking tl every hour for the latest article - that's how you can tell it's a good series I'm checking every day, being sure that the next part is live every time :-) cant wait!! such a great series and i love reading the discussions Thanks for your patience and I'm glad you're enjoying the series.
It's no worries, we know you had to fervently rewrite your original #5 MVP article with Dark after reading the tl discussion
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Northern Ireland27041 Posts
On February 04 2024 10:39 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 21:11 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 03 2024 20:46 SharkStarcraft wrote:On February 02 2024 08:38 Pandain wrote:
I am checking tl every hour for the latest article - that's how you can tell it's a good series I'm checking every day, being sure that the next part is live every time :-) cant wait!! such a great series and i love reading the discussions Thanks for your patience and I'm glad you're enjoying the series. It's no worries, we know you had to fervently rewrite your original #5 MVP article with Dark after reading the tl discussion
It’s a tough gig but somebody has to do it.
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On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
Because this list is more: "the greatest HotS players list", or "proleague players who also had a few other noteworthy achievements list". But since these titles don't get the hype, it's not called that.
In no world is: MVP>Rain>MC, so the list is a bit nonsense and Serral will not be no. 1, because he wasn't part of proleague, so in a way he's not in the competition, he'll just on the list so that it doesn't get discredited.
If it is all about the period from when SC2 was the most popular to its downfall, it would coincide with the time that Life was playing, and while Life was playing he was the GOAT, so in any case the list will be sad.
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Yes, it does feel a bit like Miz is just listing "the greatest HotS players" more than anything (until now). But to me, that totally makes sense. The HotS days had the highest number of top-quality players competing. Plus, it was probably when the game was at its most balanced state - it felt like the best player usually came out on top, without the game's balance messing with the results too much.
Since then, though, things have changed a lot. Late LotV has had a decreasing number of top-quality competitors. And the balance in LotV hasn't just been worse; it's been all over the place with each patch - with an average trend of Z being favoured. This inconsistency really makes me second-guess how much the results really mean in LotV. For me it's harder to tell who's genuinely the best.
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United States1939 Posts
On February 05 2024 00:31 Xamo wrote:
Yes, it does feel a bit like Miz is just listing "the greatest HotS players" more than anything (until now). But to me, that totally makes sense. The HotS days had the highest number of top-quality players competing. Plus, it was probably when the game was at its most balanced state - it felt like the best player usually came out on top, without the game's balance messing with the results too much.
Since then, though, things have changed a lot. Late LotV has had a decreasing number of top-quality competitors. And the balance in LotV hasn't just been worse; it's been all over the place with each patch - with an average trend of Z being favoured. This inconsistency really makes me second-guess how much the results really mean in LotV. For me it's harder to tell who's genuinely the best.
 Patience 
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On February 04 2024 23:44 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. Because this list is more: "the greatest HotS players list", or "proleague players who also had a few other noteworthy achievements list". But since these titles don't get the hype, it's not called that. In no world is: MVP>Rain>MC, so the list is a bit nonsense and Serral will not be no. 1, because he wasn't part of proleague, so in a way he's not in the competition, he'll just on the list so that it doesn't get discredited. If it is all about the period from when SC2 was the most popular to its downfall, it would coincide with the time that Life was playing, and while Life was playing he was the GOAT, so in any case the list will be sad.
pre-emptively making excuses for the case of Serral not being at #1? God are you guys insecure.
Also how is Mvp>Rain>MC not true? I don't really see any other order of them that can be justified (Maybe MC>Rain, but either way they're close).
And your argument about it just being the gratest HotS players falls flat with TY being in there
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On February 04 2024 23:44 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. Because this list is more: "the greatest HotS players list", or "proleague players who also had a few other noteworthy achievements list". But since these titles don't get the hype, it's not called that. In no world is: MVP>Rain>MC, so the list is a bit nonsense and Serral will not be no. 1, because he wasn't part of proleague, so in a way he's not in the competition, he'll just on the list so that it doesn't get discredited.
You say that only half way through the list. Serral, INno, Maru, TY, Rogue, and Dark (if he's there) all had their best results in LotV, and even Zest was 50/50.
Over half the list is going to end up with LotV players.
Also, Proleague was the lifeblood of korean sc2 competition for years, of course most of the top 10 would have played in it. Other than Serral, how many players with top 10 resumes didn't play in proleague? And Mvp>Rain>MC is completely correct, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise to be honest.
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Northern Ireland27041 Posts
On February 05 2024 01:09 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2024 23:44 ejozl wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. Because this list is more: "the greatest HotS players list", or "proleague players who also had a few other noteworthy achievements list". But since these titles don't get the hype, it's not called that. In no world is: MVP>Rain>MC, so the list is a bit nonsense and Serral will not be no. 1, because he wasn't part of proleague, so in a way he's not in the competition, he'll just on the list so that it doesn't get discredited. You say that only half way through the list. Serral, INno, Maru, TY, Rogue, and Dark (if he's there) all had their best results in LotV, and even Zest was 50/50. Over half the list is going to end up with LotV players. Also, Proleague was the lifeblood of korean sc2 competition for years, of course most of the top 10 would have played in it. Other than Serral, how many players with top 10 resumes didn't play in proleague? And Mvp>Rain>MC is completely correct, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise to be honest.
Aye can’t disagree with that. MC was a great player but honestly I’d personally stick Taeja above him, never mind herO and Stats.
Maru/Rogue/Serral feel a crapshoot for the number 1 slot. They’ve all got strong claims in certain areas and have a few gaps in their resumes and a lot comes down to how one weighs them. I’ve got my own preferred order but I don’t think any combo will be particularly outrageous.
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EPT
