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On January 30 2024 02:59 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2024 01:41 Fango wrote:On January 30 2024 01:26 Pandain wrote:On January 30 2024 00:00 Fango wrote:On January 29 2024 11:48 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 11:36 Fango wrote:On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:
[quote]
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh? "Only four zergs won everything"  And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era. When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly. And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era. Do you think that's true? I haven't directly compared their achievements but from my gut take it could be argued Reynor outshined Dark, particularly 2019 onwards. Maybe, but I'd definitely include 2019 when talking about the zerg championship era. It would start mid 2017 onward But that's my point - I don't think anyone would really say the Z era was 2017 or 2018. Sure Rogue was good at the end of 2017 but I don't think really balance concerns arose until 2019 and the nydus era. I mean Maru was obviously wrecking face in 2018.
Well 2018 was not really the zerg era but towards the end it showed that zerg was def the best race when it got to the lategame and also a race with enough ways in the midgame to get there, so while serral was obv insane in the 2nd half of 2018 there was for sure an advantage for him that the best way to play zerg aligned perfectly with his strengths.
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On January 29 2024 19:15 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 17:27 Lambertus wrote:
You guys goin on about MVP, what the heck, obviously hes great, but Miz list is using clear catergories and I dont think MVP will be part of this and I would be totally ok with it, even thou I love him. But Miz loves soO and still didnt put him in #1, only in his heart maybe ;-P While I appreciate Miz’s criteria, articulation of it and the groundwork and research that went into it and some damn fine writeups, it would be a pretty boring thread if it was entirely confined to that territory without others with different gauges bringing that to bear! Even within said framework Rain kinda sticks out a lot, although actually for my money he’s the outright best, or at least most talented Toss to touch SC2. Swap Rain for Dark, Stats, one of whom I doubt will be here, possibly both and I think it’s fine within Miz’s framework. But it feels there’s as much a case for the King of Wings as for Rain given a similar span at the top. If Rain was omitted and Mvp is competing with a field who were exclusively in or around the top of the game for 5+ years, well hey you’ll not get any arguments from me. I may go riot in the streets but I won’t argue :p
Yes, in that spirit I was trying to join in here! :-D Maybe should use more emojis XD And man, he was a great player, that MVP. Close to my heart for example as well: squirtle. Also he will definitly not show up on this list, Im sure of it :-D
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United States1916 Posts
On January 29 2024 19:15 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 17:27 Lambertus wrote:
You guys goin on about MVP, what the heck, obviously hes great, but Miz list is using clear catergories and I dont think MVP will be part of this and I would be totally ok with it, even thou I love him. But Miz loves soO and still didnt put him in #1, only in his heart maybe ;-P While I appreciate Miz’s criteria, articulation of it and the groundwork and research that went into it and some damn fine writeups, it would be a pretty boring thread if it was entirely confined to that territory without others with different gauges bringing that to bear! Even within said framework Rain kinda sticks out a lot, although actually for my money he’s the outright best, or at least most talented Toss to touch SC2. Swap Rain for Dark, Stats, one of whom I doubt will be here, possibly both and I think it’s fine within Miz’s framework. But it feels there’s as much a case for the King of Wings as for Rain given a similar span at the top. If Rain was omitted and Mvp is competing with a field who were exclusively in or around the top of the game for 5+ years, well hey you’ll not get any arguments from me. I may go riot in the streets but I won’t argue :p
This isn't directed at you, or anyone in particular, but I really hope(some) people try to remember that this list was incredibly difficult to make and there were more than 10 candidates in the beginning. I'll cover 11-15 and on in blogs, but there is no shame in being the 11th best all time..
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On January 27 2024 05:41 jy_9876543210 wrote:
top 5 innovation dark maru serral rogue incoming?
MVP instead of Innovation or Dark, I think.
Edit: Shouldd've read the rest of this thread. Not including him makes sense based on the criteria we're using. Though I disagree with the notion that it's good criteria for a GOAT list. Nevertheless, impressive work done on this, and the writing is great!
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I wish this forum had auto-ban feature for saying "GOAT". 
The most useless and tiresome topic ever.
It's a game where being a great player of a dominant race in lower competition environment nets you many more tournament wins then being a great player of a non-dominant race in a very high competition era.
So how do you even compare.
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On January 29 2024 09:21 Blargh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home Mvp mostly accomplished his feats in the pre-Kespa/Proleague era, when the game was fresh and people tried to figure it out. He had one good year and was basically done afterwards. Reynor is now in the top 5 of the world for years, top 10 easily by 5+ years. He won his World Championship in a tournament in which all three of the usual GOAT-Contenders were present, beating one of them (Maru) in the process, while also winning against the biggest Challenger (Dark) and probably the best Protoss (Zest) of all time. That tournament alone is far more impressive than Mvp's GSLs, won against players you probably wouldn't even put into a Top 50...or when exactly do TOP, MarineKing and Squirtle come in your personal list of the best players of all time? And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh? I really don't think this is true. Reynor's win is impressive, but the current era of SC2 is laughable in terms of competitiveness. I'd say anything past 2018 is vastly inferior to pre-2018. Post-pandemic? Even worse. Now there are literally only 16 Koreans who can even be considered "professional" SC2 players. I would say that any achievements in the last 3 years should be valued at close to 1/3 as much as before. You can just look at the effort players put in and it's laughable in comparison to how it was in 2011-2016. Players would be practicing all day, have teams and coaches all working their asses off, with a field of players roughly 3x larger. I'd even say that Top 4 of GSL 2012 was more impressive than winning the global finals in 2018-2023. Sure, Reynor plays better than any player from 2016 did, but the strength and accomplishment of a player is always relative to the state of the competition at the time. In 10 years, there's probably going to be some player who has stuck with SC2 for all 10 years winning everything despite the scene being dead, and you'll be calling them the GOAT for winning the most tournaments out of any player ever. I don't even feel like Maru or Dark try any more. You can see it in their play. No one is invested in the game the same way people were before. Basically no one has that burning fire in their heart to win it all. Sure, people want to win because money is good to have. But it's not what it was. Players were so invested back in the early days of GSL. Players literally gave up all of their home life, gave up good jobs, lived in grody team houses, just so they could be the best. No one does that now.
great points, i share these opinions. People writing off MVP's accomplishments either forgot or were not around how incredibly competitive GSL and SC2 in general used to be. Hundreds of players dedicating their lives to the game tried day and night to figure out the next best strategy and hone their skills. Sure the game wasn't figured out, so what?? Is Pelé not one of the football GOATs because he maybe wouldn't fit into Pep Guardiola's modern setup??
IMO MVP>>>>>>Dark
But still, Dark > Rain, TY, soO, so... i don't know where that leaves us
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On January 30 2024 01:48 Balnazza wrote:
I believe that Serral and peak-Reynor (we all know his motivational swings) are better than most players, yes. Purely skillwise Maru would also fit in that category, maybe even Dark. Rogue to a lesser extend, but he was incredibly cutthrought which ofc is a strength in its own right.
The game probably is and was never 100% balanced, I assume that is impossible. But I don't believe the game was so imbalanced that it could clear a huge skill-difference between players. Otherwise so many more Zergs would have broken into the top-ranks - like in WoL when terran was too much. Though even there I'm not fully sure if it was just balanced or the fact that the game was new and not figured out at all.
Rogue to a lesser extent than Dark is a bit off IMO.
Given his playstyles people always seem to underestimate just how strong he was on form. His multitasking and fundamentals in aggressive macro-games were absurdly good (when he was showing up). He also brought this form when it counted more often than Dark.
I think Inno and Life have also had this `just better' aura that the players you've mentioned have.
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Really enjoying the articles, but tbh I'm more-so enjoying the conversation it sparks. Nicely done.
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On January 30 2024 05:07 ZombieGrub wrote:
Really enjoying the articles, but tbh I'm more-so enjoying the conversation it sparks. Nicely done.
Agreed. I think it's awesome that you see how passionate people are about the scene and their favorite players after all these years.
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Inno. Dark. Serral. Rogue. Maru.. MVP left...........................
Where is MMA at!?
If MMA isn't on this list I will RIOT
TRIPLE CROWN WINNER with PREMIERE titles in NA Europe and Korea
2x GSL champion
Most clutch team league player EVER, GSTL champion x2
Blizzcon runner up
Pioneer of Terran multi drop play
One of the VERY FEW to be able to beat IMMvp consistently
Plus the time span he was dominant, from his first GSL + MLG to the last HSC he won
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On January 30 2024 04:35 ZeroByte13 wrote:I wish this forum had auto-ban feature for saying "GOAT". The most useless and tiresome topic ever. It's a game where being a great player of a dominant race in lower competition environment nets you many more tournament wins then being a great player of a non-dominant race in a very high competition era. So how do you even compare.
While I get that, this article-series is basically a list that ramps up to find the GOAT (or can someone be the Number 1 on a list called "Greatest Players of All Time" but not be called the GOAT?)
So you literally clicked on an article about the GOAT-topic and became annoyed that people argued about the GOAT-topic...
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France12911 Posts
On January 30 2024 07:03 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2024 04:35 ZeroByte13 wrote:I wish this forum had auto-ban feature for saying "GOAT". The most useless and tiresome topic ever. It's a game where being a great player of a dominant race in lower competition environment nets you many more tournament wins then being a great player of a non-dominant race in a very high competition era. So how do you even compare. While I get that, this article-series is basically a list that ramps up to find the GOAT (or can someone be the Number 1 on a list called "Greatest Players of All Time" but not be called the GOAT?) So you literally clicked on an article about the GOAT-topic and became annoyed that people argued about the GOAT-topic...
Yeah I get being annoyed at people talking about GOAT in basically every LR thread until Katowice, but if there is a good place to discuss it, it’s these threads. Even if the player isn’t number one yet, seeing who gets which spot can hint at the players that will inevitably not get on this list (or who gets #1)
The very high number of answers in each and every thread shows that the passion is still there :D
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On January 30 2024 05:23 ShowTheLights wrote:
Inno. Dark. Serral. Rogue. Maru.. MVP left...........................
Where is MMA at!?
If MMA isn't on this list I will RIOT
TRIPLE CROWN WINNER with PREMIERE titles in NA Europe and Korea
2x GSL champion
Most clutch team league player EVER, GSTL champion x2
Blizzcon runner up
Pioneer of Terran multi drop play
One of the VERY FEW to be able to beat IMMvp consistently
Plus the time span he was dominant, from his first GSL + MLG to the last HSC he won
he wasnt even ahead of some players left off this list on the last list i dont see how he would make it here.
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Northern Ireland26448 Posts
On January 30 2024 04:16 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 19:15 WombaT wrote:On January 29 2024 17:27 Lambertus wrote:
You guys goin on about MVP, what the heck, obviously hes great, but Miz list is using clear catergories and I dont think MVP will be part of this and I would be totally ok with it, even thou I love him. But Miz loves soO and still didnt put him in #1, only in his heart maybe ;-P While I appreciate Miz’s criteria, articulation of it and the groundwork and research that went into it and some damn fine writeups, it would be a pretty boring thread if it was entirely confined to that territory without others with different gauges bringing that to bear! Even within said framework Rain kinda sticks out a lot, although actually for my money he’s the outright best, or at least most talented Toss to touch SC2. Swap Rain for Dark, Stats, one of whom I doubt will be here, possibly both and I think it’s fine within Miz’s framework. But it feels there’s as much a case for the King of Wings as for Rain given a similar span at the top. If Rain was omitted and Mvp is competing with a field who were exclusively in or around the top of the game for 5+ years, well hey you’ll not get any arguments from me. I may go riot in the streets but I won’t argue :p This isn't directed at you, or anyone in particular, but I really hope(some) people try to remember that this list was incredibly difficult to make and there were more than 10 candidates in the beginning. I'll cover 11-15 and on in blogs, but there is no shame in being the 11th best all time..
Oh yeah 100%
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On January 30 2024 02:59 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2024 01:41 Fango wrote:On January 30 2024 01:26 Pandain wrote:On January 30 2024 00:00 Fango wrote:On January 29 2024 11:48 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 11:36 Fango wrote:On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:
[quote]
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh? "Only four zergs won everything" And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era. When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly. And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era. Do you think that's true? I haven't directly compared their achievements but from my gut take it could be argued Reynor outshined Dark, particularly 2019 onwards. Maybe, but I'd definitely include 2019 when talking about the zerg championship era. It would start mid 2017 onward But that's my point - I don't think anyone would really say the Z era was 2017 or 2018. Sure Rogue was good at the end of 2017 but I don't think really balance concerns arose until 2019 and the nydus era. I mean Maru was obviously wrecking face in 2018.
Balance concerns at least should have arise earlier. Maybe people were too exited for Serral and Reynor to talk about it.Zerg lategame was too strong by mid 2017, even Blizzcon final was a ZvZ that year, and there were articles accusing Rogue of being a patch zerg for winning.
Did people forget how busted ZvP was in early 2018? Ling drop openers and nydus worms were unbeatable. And terran was almost a dead race except for Maru and his ravens, he was winning events as the sole terran in the ro8.
Even moving past that, 2019 was 100% the Zerg era, and Dark was the best player that year. It's fair to say Reynor was the 4th best during the Zerg era, which is what the conversation was about.
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On January 30 2024 07:03 Balnazza wrote:
While I get that, this article-series is basically a list that ramps up to find the GOAT (or can someone be the Number 1 on a list called "Greatest Players of All Time" but not be called the GOAT?)
So you literally clicked on an article about the GOAT-topic and became annoyed that people argued about the GOAT-topic... Correct me if I'm wrong but this article is about Zest, isn't it?
And what do we get in almost every article of this series so far? Endless arguments about Serral being GOAT, Serral not being GOAT, etc. How many time Zest was mentioned in the last 3 pages?
This is what I'm talking about.
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On January 30 2024 09:41 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2024 07:03 Balnazza wrote:
While I get that, this article-series is basically a list that ramps up to find the GOAT (or can someone be the Number 1 on a list called "Greatest Players of All Time" but not be called the GOAT?)
So you literally clicked on an article about the GOAT-topic and became annoyed that people argued about the GOAT-topic... Correct me if I'm wrong but this article is about Zest, isn't it? And what do we get in almost every article of this series so far? Endless arguments about Serral being GOAT, Serral not being GOAT, etc. How many time Zest was mentioned in the last 3 pages? This is what I'm talking about.
It is basically an ongoing discussion that just through the entries. In this case for the last three pages it wasn't really about Serral and more about Mvp tbh. And that is on topic, since it is a discussion which five players might come next in the list.
Again, this is literally THE place to talk about the GOAT-topic.
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On January 30 2024 04:16 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 19:15 WombaT wrote:On January 29 2024 17:27 Lambertus wrote:
You guys goin on about MVP, what the heck, obviously hes great, but Miz list is using clear catergories and I dont think MVP will be part of this and I would be totally ok with it, even thou I love him. But Miz loves soO and still didnt put him in #1, only in his heart maybe ;-P While I appreciate Miz’s criteria, articulation of it and the groundwork and research that went into it and some damn fine writeups, it would be a pretty boring thread if it was entirely confined to that territory without others with different gauges bringing that to bear! Even within said framework Rain kinda sticks out a lot, although actually for my money he’s the outright best, or at least most talented Toss to touch SC2. Swap Rain for Dark, Stats, one of whom I doubt will be here, possibly both and I think it’s fine within Miz’s framework. But it feels there’s as much a case for the King of Wings as for Rain given a similar span at the top. If Rain was omitted and Mvp is competing with a field who were exclusively in or around the top of the game for 5+ years, well hey you’ll not get any arguments from me. I may go riot in the streets but I won’t argue :p This isn't directed at you, or anyone in particular, but I really hope(some) people try to remember that this list was incredibly difficult to make and there were more than 10 candidates in the beginning. I'll cover 11-15 and on in blogs, but there is no shame in being the 11th best all time..
It's too late Miz. You've doomed yourself. You got to top 5 with Innovation, Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral, and Mvp still left. There's no recovering from this.
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Zest is best! (...protoss of all time but still not top 5 player of all time)
Maybe you should have increased the placements of those players who played with the most handicapped race 
jk i wonder how you'll manage spots 1-5
the comments are going to be brutal haha
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On January 30 2024 09:41 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2024 07:03 Balnazza wrote:
While I get that, this article-series is basically a list that ramps up to find the GOAT (or can someone be the Number 1 on a list called "Greatest Players of All Time" but not be called the GOAT?)
So you literally clicked on an article about the GOAT-topic and became annoyed that people argued about the GOAT-topic... Correct me if I'm wrong but this article is about Zest, isn't it? And what do we get in almost every article of this series so far? Endless arguments about Serral being GOAT, Serral not being GOAT, etc. How many time Zest was mentioned in the last 3 pages? This is what I'm talking about.
Well, there's little to debate with Zest, he's near unanimously the greatest protoss of all time (there was even a poll the other day). He'd be a consistent 5, 6, or 7 on any list following any criteria.
With Mvp, Dark, Serral, Maru, Rogue, there's a lot of GOAT and not-even-top-10 arguments to throw around, people will be talking about it forever.
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EPT
