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On January 27 2024 05:41 jy_9876543210 wrote:
top 5 innovation dark maru serral rogue incoming?
This is most likely to be the top 5 imo, considering "all time" criteria.
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On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home Mvp mostly accomplished his feats in the pre-Kespa/Proleague era, when the game was fresh and people tried to figure it out. He had one good year and was basically done afterwards. Reynor is now in the top 5 of the world for years, top 10 easily by 5+ years. He won his World Championship in a tournament in which all three of the usual GOAT-Contenders were present, beating one of them (Maru) in the process, while also winning against the biggest Challenger (Dark) and probably the best Protoss (Zest) of all time. That tournament alone is far more impressive than Mvp's GSLs, won against players you probably wouldn't even put into a Top 50...or when exactly do TOP, MarineKing and Squirtle come in your personal list of the best players of all time? And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
I really don't think this is true. Reynor's win is impressive, but the current era of SC2 is laughable in terms of competitiveness. I'd say anything past 2018 is vastly inferior to pre-2018. Post-pandemic? Even worse. Now there are literally only 16 Koreans who can even be considered "professional" SC2 players. I would say that any achievements in the last 3 years should be valued at close to 1/3 as much as before. You can just look at the effort players put in and it's laughable in comparison to how it was in 2011-2016. Players would be practicing all day, have teams and coaches all working their asses off, with a field of players roughly 3x larger. I'd even say that Top 4 of GSL 2012 was more impressive than winning the global finals in 2018-2023.
Sure, Reynor plays better than any player from 2016 did, but the strength and accomplishment of a player is always relative to the state of the competition at the time. In 10 years, there's probably going to be some player who has stuck with SC2 for all 10 years winning everything despite the scene being dead, and you'll be calling them the GOAT for winning the most tournaments out of any player ever.
I don't even feel like Maru or Dark try any more. You can see it in their play. No one is invested in the game the same way people were before. Basically no one has that burning fire in their heart to win it all. Sure, people want to win because money is good to have. But it's not what it was. Players were so invested back in the early days of GSL. Players literally gave up all of their home life, gave up good jobs, lived in grody team houses, just so they could be the best. No one does that now.
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On January 29 2024 09:21 Blargh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home Mvp mostly accomplished his feats in the pre-Kespa/Proleague era, when the game was fresh and people tried to figure it out. He had one good year and was basically done afterwards. Reynor is now in the top 5 of the world for years, top 10 easily by 5+ years. He won his World Championship in a tournament in which all three of the usual GOAT-Contenders were present, beating one of them (Maru) in the process, while also winning against the biggest Challenger (Dark) and probably the best Protoss (Zest) of all time. That tournament alone is far more impressive than Mvp's GSLs, won against players you probably wouldn't even put into a Top 50...or when exactly do TOP, MarineKing and Squirtle come in your personal list of the best players of all time? And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh? I really don't think this is true. Reynor's win is impressive, but the current era of SC2 is laughable in terms of competitiveness. I'd say anything past 2018 is vastly inferior to pre-2018. Post-pandemic? Even worse. Now there are literally only 16 Koreans who can even be considered "professional" SC2 players. I would say that any achievements in the last 3 years should be valued at close to 1/3 as much as before. You can just look at the effort players put in and it's laughable in comparison to how it was in 2011-2016. Players would be practicing all day, have teams and coaches all working their asses off, with a field of players roughly 3x larger. I'd even say that Top 4 of GSL 2012 was more impressive than winning the global finals in 2018-2023. Sure, Reynor plays better than any player from 2016 did, but the strength and accomplishment of a player is always relative to the state of the competition at the time. In 10 years, there's probably going to be some player who has stuck with SC2 for all 10 years winning everything despite the scene being dead, and you'll be calling them the GOAT for winning the most tournaments out of any player ever. I don't even feel like Maru or Dark try any more. You can see it in their play. No one is invested in the game the same way people were before. Basically no one has that burning fire in their heart to win it all. Sure, people want to win because money is good to have. But it's not what it was. Players were so invested back in the early days of GSL. Players literally gave up all of their home life, gave up good jobs, lived in grody team houses, just so they could be the best. No one does that now.
2018 already is a pretty heavy anti-Serral take. Proleague shut down mid-to-end 2016, so if anything 2017 at the latest should be the starting point of this "ending era". But I can already see the foam on some peoples mouth if you wanted to explain to them that Marus and Rogues trophies are basically just worth 1/3 of anything before them.
Next: I think it is extremly weird to mush everything pre-2016 into one era, saying winning the very first GSL is as much of an accomplishment then winning one in 2014/2015 at the hight of Kespa/Proleague. Because while I still think that we have the highest skill-ceiling right now, the hight of competitiveness was clearly the Proleague-years for the reasons you mentioned. But GSL was such a different tournament in the start, winning three almost seems too little of an accomplishment. Maru won three GSLs in one year - the only three GSLs in that year. THAT is impressive. Mvp won what, three out of ten? And he won it over players who basically checked out when the competitive-curve climaxed.
I would say a long-living game like SC2 has a life-circle of four stages:
1)The release-years. Everyone is a newcomer basically, some players distinguish themselves, but most of them usually never carry over into the next stage.
2)The height of competitiveness, when player-base and skill-level are both on a very high standard.
3)The fizzling out - the player base diminishes, but as long as the prizemoney is good, the skill level somewhat still increases. The game might not be able to support as many progamers as before, meaning those who are still in it need to be on a very high level to keep doing it. New players usually don't break into the top-ranks anymore, mostly because there is too little hype and opportunity to get into the game.
4)"Ded gaem": The game still runs, might even support some players, but there are no new players coming in and the tournament scene revolves around community tournaments etc. Examples for games in that stage could be WC3 and SC:R outside of Korea.
SC2 is clearly in the third stage. Not what it used to be, but with giant tournaments, a great team league and still pretty good viewing numbers it is still miles away from being in a stage like WC3.
I would never discount any trophies and achievements completly, but I would say you have to reduce the impact of everything achieved in the first and fourth stage by quite a bit. In this case, everything pre-Proleague isn't "nothing", but it is also not nearly on the level of the now twelve years afterwards.
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On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
"Only four zergs won everything" 
And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era.
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On January 29 2024 11:36 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh? "Only four zergs won everything" And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era.
When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly.
For someone who was "so much better than everybody else" Mvp didn't win that much tbh. He was good, probably the best at his time, but not that outstanding. Reynor toppled better opponents in a year alone, not to mention the extend of his career.
And just to clarify: I'm not saying Reynor should be Top 5, even Top 10 (I think I would have put him there, but I can see why not). I'm just saying he definetly is atleast one place higher on the list than Mvp. And how people can even begin to put Mvp in the Top 3/5 is completly beyond me.
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Northern Ireland24783 Posts
On January 29 2024 09:48 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 09:21 Blargh wrote:On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home Mvp mostly accomplished his feats in the pre-Kespa/Proleague era, when the game was fresh and people tried to figure it out. He had one good year and was basically done afterwards. Reynor is now in the top 5 of the world for years, top 10 easily by 5+ years. He won his World Championship in a tournament in which all three of the usual GOAT-Contenders were present, beating one of them (Maru) in the process, while also winning against the biggest Challenger (Dark) and probably the best Protoss (Zest) of all time. That tournament alone is far more impressive than Mvp's GSLs, won against players you probably wouldn't even put into a Top 50...or when exactly do TOP, MarineKing and Squirtle come in your personal list of the best players of all time? And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh? I really don't think this is true. Reynor's win is impressive, but the current era of SC2 is laughable in terms of competitiveness. I'd say anything past 2018 is vastly inferior to pre-2018. Post-pandemic? Even worse. Now there are literally only 16 Koreans who can even be considered "professional" SC2 players. I would say that any achievements in the last 3 years should be valued at close to 1/3 as much as before. You can just look at the effort players put in and it's laughable in comparison to how it was in 2011-2016. Players would be practicing all day, have teams and coaches all working their asses off, with a field of players roughly 3x larger. I'd even say that Top 4 of GSL 2012 was more impressive than winning the global finals in 2018-2023. Sure, Reynor plays better than any player from 2016 did, but the strength and accomplishment of a player is always relative to the state of the competition at the time. In 10 years, there's probably going to be some player who has stuck with SC2 for all 10 years winning everything despite the scene being dead, and you'll be calling them the GOAT for winning the most tournaments out of any player ever. I don't even feel like Maru or Dark try any more. You can see it in their play. No one is invested in the game the same way people were before. Basically no one has that burning fire in their heart to win it all. Sure, people want to win because money is good to have. But it's not what it was. Players were so invested back in the early days of GSL. Players literally gave up all of their home life, gave up good jobs, lived in grody team houses, just so they could be the best. No one does that now. 2018 already is a pretty heavy anti-Serral take. Proleague shut down mid-to-end 2016, so if anything 2017 at the latest should be the starting point of this "ending era". But I can already see the foam on some peoples mouth if you wanted to explain to them that Marus and Rogues trophies are basically just worth 1/3 of anything before them. Next: I think it is extremly weird to mush everything pre-2016 into one era, saying winning the very first GSL is as much of an accomplishment then winning one in 2014/2015 at the hight of Kespa/Proleague. Because while I still think that we have the highest skill-ceiling right now, the hight of competitiveness was clearly the Proleague-years for the reasons you mentioned. But GSL was such a different tournament in the start, winning three almost seems too little of an accomplishment. Maru won three GSLs in one year - the only three GSLs in that year. THAT is impressive. Mvp won what, three out of ten? And he won it over players who basically checked out when the competitive-curve climaxed. I would say a long-living game like SC2 has a life-circle of four stages: [b]1)The release-years. Everyone is a newcomer basically, some players distinguish themselves, but most of them usually never carry over into the next stage. 2)The height of competitiveness, when player-base and skill-level are both on a very high standard. 3)The fizzling out - the player base diminishes, but as long as the prizemoney is good, the skill level somewhat still increases. The game might not be able to support as many progamers as before, meaning those who are still in it need to be on a very high level to keep doing it. New players usually don't break into the top-ranks anymore, mostly because there is too little hype and opportunity to get into the game. 4)"Ded gaem": The game still runs, might even support some players, but there are no new players coming in and the tournament scene revolves around community tournaments etc. Examples for games in that stage could be WC3 and SC:R outside of Korea. SC2 is clearly in the third stage. Not what it used to be, but with giant tournaments, a great team league and still pretty good viewing numbers it is still miles away from being in a stage like WC3.[\b] I would never discount any trophies and achievements completly, but I would say you have to reduce the impact of everything achieved in the first and fourth stage by quite a bit. In this case, everything pre-Proleague isn't "nothing", but it is also not nearly on the level of the now twelve years afterwards.
Can’t agree more with this part.
In terms of raw chops, 2023 vintage Serral is smacking fools around even at the Kespa peak years, that’s what you get with years of the collective hive mind further refining the game. But it was more cutthroat, even Serral who I think most concede is at least the most resolutely consistent player we’ve seen (well, consistently good anyway!), there’s just no way even he would be making basically the Ro4+ nearly every tournament when the competition was that much deeper.
Granted I don’t actually think Serral becomes that Serral without the creation of the regional stepping stone that was locked. That structure was really important in giving a pathway to foreigners to actually break through. But hey, that’s another discussion.
One observation that has intrigued me is how few of the Kespa B-teamers, or non-ace tier players ever really stepped up, given how long that system was in place. Most of the players on this list, as well as those you’d stick 11-20, a herO, a Trap etc all were pretty established names, pretty quickly.
But yet even as the scene became less cutthroat, military retirements took their toll etc it was still mostly the same names, even if they were going through the motions we’d see tourney after tourney.
Hell there’s even more stalwarts from the eSF days still around like Maru, Gumiho and Byun than anyone who really wasn’t established as a top player by 2014 or so breaking through.
Always found this a bit curious figured I’d throw it out there as to other’s thoughts. It’s like there was one great generation of championship calibre players, and then nothing after
One would think you’d have at least a couple of raw talents close to a breakthrough prior to the end of Kespa that could stick around and hoover up some prizes and prestige
I recognise the structural problems re Korea, and bemoan them myself but perhaps this era is more competitive than we give it credit for sometimes, given how that ceiling demonstrably hasn’t been broken.
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I don't see why opponents who are historically better, but playing comparatively worse than before count more than players who were better at that time. Like, "better players" is all relative. The only way you can compare Reynors accomplishments to anyone else's is through looking at how competitive the field is during the times they played. The fact that more people dropped out or became irrelevant just shows that the field was way bigger and more competitive. There were 64+ Koreans who were competitive back then. Now there's 16. Like, GSL is embarrassing now. $7k USD for 1st, with about the least competitive qualifiers. I don't put Maru's recent GSL wins even in the same tier as MLG or Dreamhacks of 2012-2016, and I'm a Maru fan.
So while Reynor is certainly impressive for the modern era, the competition just isn't the same as before. I think Serral is definitively the best player during LotV. I'd still consider Serrals accomplishments impressive and top 5 GOAT worthy. But I wouldn't consider Reynors.
A comparison we could make is how ASL in Broodwar now is basically worth nothing in terms of Broodwar GOAT legacy. No one is going to say an ASL win today is the same as Flashs or Jaedongs or Bisus in the past. It's still impressive seeing anyone win any competition, and it's cool seeing players technically at the highest performance ceiling ever, but the weight of the achievement just isn't as high. You can be definitively the best player in the world at something, but if there's only 5 people who compete, it doesn't count for that much.
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Northern Ireland24783 Posts
On January 29 2024 11:48 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 11:36 Fango wrote:On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh? "Only four zergs won everything" And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era. When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly. For someone who was "so much better than everybody else" Mvp didn't win that much tbh. He was good, probably the best at his time, but not that outstanding. Reynor toppled better opponents in a year alone, not to mention the extend of his career. And just to clarify: I'm not saying Reynor should be Top 5, even Top 10 (I think I would have put him there, but I can see why not). I'm just saying he definetly is atleast one place higher on the list than Mvp. And how people can even begin to put Mvp in the Top 3/5 is completly beyond me.
He was the clearest outright best player around until Innovation’s peak incarnation. You can probably count on the fingers of one hand players who had a sufficient gapping of the field to be the best for any period of time.
This doesn’t necessarily mean one wins everything mind, Inno’s strongest period IMO he still loses that GSL final to Soulkey, but he was outright melting people most matches in that span.
I stick Mvp up so high because he laid so many foundations in a new strategy game, and I rate being ahead of the curve and actually figuring out and fleshing out the game quite highly.
I mean if one had the budget and some willing subjects you could probably drill a mechanically gifted youngster into a damn competitive player these days, even if they’re very lacking in imagination and intuition. Not to take away from current pros who clearly are still using their brains and aren’t automatons
In addition it’s partly him being that bit ahead of the pack, and him being the complete package of clutch, a great set planner and him being able to still be competitive while completely changing his style thru injury. Of WoL’s big hitters of the other races Nestea clearly had limits despite his cleverness, MC was a bit streaky at times and I don’t think either of them were quite ‘the best’ of that time even though they won titles.
Plus you still have those latter series where he was hanging with the next generation despite being on the physical decline, even if the scene hadn’t quite hit its peak. Ofc vs Life, that immortal series versus Inno, him beating the likes of Rain. That dual career trajectory where he was ahead of the field mechanically at the beginning, and behind at the end but still getting results.
I can totally understand excluding Mvp if one is judging with different personal parameters of greatness but he’d make my personal cut for a top 10
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Mvp has also been part of some of the greatest moments ever. He's part of *the* peak SC2 moment with the Squirtle finals. In terms of moments, I dunno if he can be beat. I think NesTea is the only one remotely comparable, and that is almost entirely fueled by Artosis' love for him which led to amazing moments (The GSL May Ro4 vs sC final moments, "I'M NESTEAAAAAAAA" and any time he enters the GSTL booth).
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reynor over mvp?
yeah, look his great run in the gsl!
MVP is by far above reynor.
its not just about winning championships, its also about how dominant he was, how he changed the game, his builds, etc.
MVP won everything, even being injured.
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You guys goin on about MVP, what the heck, obviously hes great, but Miz list is using clear catergories and I dont think MVP will be part of this and I would be totally ok with it, even thou I love him. But Miz loves soO and still didnt put him in #1, only in his heart maybe ;-P
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Northern Ireland24783 Posts
On January 29 2024 17:27 Lambertus wrote:
You guys goin on about MVP, what the heck, obviously hes great, but Miz list is using clear catergories and I dont think MVP will be part of this and I would be totally ok with it, even thou I love him. But Miz loves soO and still didnt put him in #1, only in his heart maybe ;-P
While I appreciate Miz’s criteria, articulation of it and the groundwork and research that went into it and some damn fine writeups, it would be a pretty boring thread if it was entirely confined to that territory without others with different gauges bringing that to bear!
Even within said framework Rain kinda sticks out a lot, although actually for my money he’s the outright best, or at least most talented Toss to touch SC2. Swap Rain for Dark, Stats, one of whom I doubt will be here, possibly both and I think it’s fine within Miz’s framework. But it feels there’s as much a case for the King of Wings as for Rain given a similar span at the top. If Rain was omitted and Mvp is competing with a field who were exclusively in or around the top of the game for 5+ years, well hey you’ll not get any arguments from me.
I may go riot in the streets but I won’t argue :p
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France12770 Posts
Yeah it's perfectly possible to put up a list without mvp there, if being dominant for a relatively short period of time and ending one's career before slowly accumulating trophies over time (à la Dark, or Stats) is not taken much into account. But given the fact that Rain is there, mvp is also probably there too.
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Northern Ireland24783 Posts
On January 29 2024 14:22 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Mvp has also been part of some of the greatest moments ever. He's part of *the* peak SC2 moment with the Squirtle finals. In terms of moments, I dunno if he can be beat. I think NesTea is the only one remotely comparable, and that is almost entirely fueled by Artosis' love for him which led to amazing moments (The GSL May Ro4 vs sC final moments, "I'M NESTEAAAAAAAA" and any time he enters the GSTL booth).
I mean that series is Mvp’s greatness in a nutshell. Damn solid in ye olde regular games, but threw in a clearly prepped strategy for a particular map, I mean we never saw split map BC TvP then, even now it’s blooming rare over SC2’s entire lifespan at that kinda level. Squirtle pulls basically the only possible win condition open to him, but the gameplan worked beautifully.
Then Mvp pulls the daring cheese with everything on the line and Squirtle deflects it, only for Mvp to pull a tactical bit of manouvering that was really his only win condition.
As a fan of the game in general more than players and races I am thankful that we got those games, and that Mvp and Squirtle gave just enough wriggle room for them to best their opponent in such memorable fashion in those sets.
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On January 29 2024 11:48 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 11:36 Fango wrote:On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh? "Only four zergs won everything" And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era. When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly.
And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era. While Mvp was absolutely the best terran in 2011 and WoL overall. It's denying history well-recorded to say otherwise.
You know some people once said "It's not zerg it's just Serral" and they were completely wrong, but the idea there can be justified. That idea falls apart completely if you extend it to 4 or 5 players. Do you really believe Serral, soO, Reynor, Dark, and Rogue were better than any player of any other race suddenly from 2017 onwards? Even Rogue would disagree with you
For the record, terran was imba for a while during WoL, but you can't agree with that while claiming zerg wasn't also imba in LotV.
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United States1825 Posts
On January 30 2024 00:00 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 11:48 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 11:36 Fango wrote:On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:
[quote]
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh? "Only four zergs won everything" And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era. When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly. And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era. While Mvp was absolutely the best terran in 2011 and WoL overall. It's denying history well-recorded to say otherwise. You know some people once said "It's not zerg it's just Serral" and they were completely wrong, but the idea there can be justified. That idea falls apart completely if you extend it to 4 or 5 players. Do you really believe Serral, soO, Reynor, Dark, and Rogue were better than any player of any other race suddenly from 2017 onwards? Even Rogue would disagree with youFor the record, terran was imba for a while during WoL, but you can't agree with that while claiming zerg wasn't also imba in LotV.
Don't insult my man Climax.That's the narrative. This is reality...
https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/551656-rogue-still-sexy
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On January 30 2024 00:00 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 11:48 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 11:36 Fango wrote:On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:
[quote]
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh? "Only four zergs won everything" And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era. When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly. And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era.
Do you think that's true? I haven't directly compared their achievements but from my gut take it could be argued Reynor outshined Dark, particularly 2019 onwards.
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On January 30 2024 01:26 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2024 00:00 Fango wrote:On January 29 2024 11:48 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 11:36 Fango wrote:On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:
[quote]
theres no way MVP is not even top 10.
if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh? "Only four zergs won everything" And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era. When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly. And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era. Do you think that's true? I haven't directly compared their achievements but from my gut take it could be argued Reynor outshined Dark, particularly 2019 onwards.
Maybe, but I'd definitely include 2019 when talking about the zerg championship era. It would start mid 2017 onward
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On January 30 2024 00:00 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 11:48 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 11:36 Fango wrote:On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:
[quote]
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh? "Only four zergs won everything" And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era. When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly. And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era. While Mvp was absolutely the best terran in 2011 and WoL overall. It's denying history well-recorded to say otherwise. You know some people once said "It's not zerg it's just Serral" and they were completely wrong, but the idea there can be justified. That idea falls apart completely if you extend it to 4 or 5 players. Do you really believe Serral, soO, Reynor, Dark, and Rogue were better than any player of any other race suddenly from 2017 onwards? Even Rogue would disagree with youFor the record, terran was imba for a while during WoL, but you can't agree with that while claiming zerg wasn't also imba in LotV.
I believe that Serral and peak-Reynor (we all know his motivational swings) are better than most players, yes. Purely skillwise Maru would also fit in that category, maybe even Dark. Rogue to a lesser extend, but he was incredibly cutthrought which ofc is a strength in its own right.
The game probably is and was never 100% balanced, I assume that is impossible. But I don't believe the game was so imbalanced that it could clear a huge skill-difference between players. Otherwise so many more Zergs would have broken into the top-ranks - like in WoL when terran was too much. Though even there I'm not fully sure if it was just balanced or the fact that the game was new and not figured out at all.
On January 30 2024 01:41 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2024 01:26 Pandain wrote:On January 30 2024 00:00 Fango wrote:On January 29 2024 11:48 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 11:36 Fango wrote:On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:
[quote]
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh? "Only four zergs won everything" And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era. When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly. And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era. Do you think that's true? I haven't directly compared their achievements but from my gut take it could be argued Reynor outshined Dark, particularly 2019 onwards. Maybe, but I'd definitely include 2019 when talking about the zerg championship era. It would start mid 2017 onward
So a year in which no Zerg even reached the finals of GSL is part of the "Zerg Championship era"? That's some era...
As for Mvp's accomplishments I refer to my earlier post 
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On January 30 2024 01:41 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2024 01:26 Pandain wrote:On January 30 2024 00:00 Fango wrote:On January 29 2024 11:48 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 11:36 Fango wrote:On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:
[quote]
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh? "Only four zergs won everything" And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era. When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly. And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era. Do you think that's true? I haven't directly compared their achievements but from my gut take it could be argued Reynor outshined Dark, particularly 2019 onwards. Maybe, but I'd definitely include 2019 when talking about the zerg championship era. It would start mid 2017 onward
But that's my point - I don't think anyone would really say the Z era was 2017 or 2018. Sure Rogue was good at the end of 2017 but I don't think really balance concerns arose until 2019 and the nydus era. I mean Maru was obviously wrecking face in 2018.
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EPT
