EPT#6: Zest - Greatest Players of All Time - Page 2
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kaos00
United States138 Posts
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RPR_Tempest
Australia7799 Posts
On January 27 2024 09:14 Balnazza wrote: I'm still not buying into the hype that Mvp is even on this list. Being dominant when the game was new is just not that big of a feat. Sorry for yet again making the side-step to WC3, but I don't feel like DayFly or Madfrog ever were seriously in a Top 10 discussion of all time, considering how fast they dropped out compared to...well, everyone else. Zest being the best Protoss seems about right. Him not being Top 5 also seems right. Why would Rain be on the list if Mvp isn't? Mvp's case is just Rain's case but better in every way lol | ||
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luxon
United States117 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On January 27 2024 10:30 luxon wrote: if the remaining top 5 isnt life rogue maru serral mvp/inno then this list cant be taken too seriously Life is not going to be on this list for very obvious reasons. Though he would qualify in counter factual universe where he gambles less. | ||
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Kitai
United States886 Posts
I'm not gonna be upset if MVP gets the nod, but I certainly won't be rioting in the TL streets if he doesn't! | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
He's also the best PvP player to ever touch the game. Is his PvP the best match up of any player? He is, unfortunately, inconsistent so I can see why he ended up lower than INno and Mvp. And he does have a couple grim losses that hold him back from being on the highest tier (2014 Blizzcon, GSL finals vs Cure), and he has the worst cannon rush of all time But personally I think after 8 years of winning, he outshined at least Mvp's triumphant couple of years. Not to mention he had a similarly dominant run in a much harder era against Kespa players | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1363 Posts
On January 27 2024 09:45 RPR_Tempest wrote: Why would Rain be on the list if Mvp isn't? Mvp's case is just Rain's case but better in every way lol That's a question you could ask Mizenhauer. I wouldn't have been mad if he was tenth, but Top 5 of all time? No way in hell. His last non-qualifier or showmatch series was a 2-3 vs. MorroW... | ||
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yht9657
1810 Posts
and is tied with Rogue, sOs, Serral, and Dark for the second most world championship final appearances at three Stats may not have done enough to deserve top 10 goat but stripping him of a world championship final is kinda disrespecting. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19386 Posts
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jy_9876543210
265 Posts
 Now that he's reminded, maybe suddenly there's room for another player  | ||
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
But I do agree, I can't see why Mvp would be absent but Rain on the list. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Rain shouldn't be there. | ||
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argonautdice
Canada2722 Posts
On January 27 2024 12:54 Blargh wrote: I can't see any players other than... Innovation, Serral, Maru, Rogue, and Dark being top 5. Initially I had MVP in there too, but this list is much more about longevity than "Peak". Mvp may have been the best in 2011-2012, but he was pretty much washed up by the end of 2013. But I do agree, I can't see why Mvp would be absent but Rain on the list. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Rain shouldn't be there. I wonder if Rain doing well in BW after he retired from SC2 played a role in that. | ||
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fastr
France902 Posts
On January 27 2024 12:54 Blargh wrote: I can't see any players other than... Innovation, Serral, Maru, Rogue, and Dark being top 5. Initially I had MVP in there too, but this list is much more about longevity than "Peak". Mvp may have been the best in 2011-2012, but he was pretty much washed up by the end of 2013. But I do agree, I can't see why Mvp would be absent but Rain on the list. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Rain shouldn't be there. I agree. I think anyone who still expects Mvp to show up in this list is either deluded or seeing the past with rose-tinted glasses. I was the biggest Mvp stan back then, and I still think his GSL finals win vs Squirtle was the hypest SC2 moment of all time. Yet if we look at objective results which this list does, if Mvp was to show up, he would have been top 8 at best IMO. Mvp is the undisputed King of Wings, but he has no business being in a top 10 GOAT list of a nearly 14 year old game when WoL was only around for 2 and a half years. That is less than 20% of the game's total existence. I agree that the top 5 should indisputably be Rogue Serral Maru INno Dark. While pretty much everyone agrees on the first 4, I think Dark doesn't get the respect he deserves here. Dark has been a top 3 world zerg for like 9 years and he's still a world champion contender. I personally had Stats at #7 and Zest at #6 so now I'm guessing Stats won't show up. I think it would be especially puzzling to see Rain in this list without Stats, but that's the only disagreement I have on an otherwise excellent top 10 list by TL's writers. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
On January 27 2024 12:54 Blargh wrote: I can't see any players other than... Innovation, Serral, Maru, Rogue, and Dark being top 5. Initially I had MVP in there too, but this list is much more about longevity than "Peak". Mvp may have been the best in 2011-2012, but he was pretty much washed up by the end of 2013. But I do agree, I can't see why Mvp would be absent but Rain on the list. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Rain shouldn't be there. Agreed. Sounds like MVP is out, but how is Rain above MVP? And i say this as someone who's always been against MVP being ranked so highly on others' lists, reminding others that he didn't win 4 GSL's but just 3 GSLs and the 4th GSL was a GSL vs the World style tourny with much less money, and with only a Ro16 that was half filled with foreigners who were non-competitive in that era. Heck, even TY above MVP is an interesting take. Also, if longetivity is going to be valued highly on this list, then why Rain over Stats? Stats has a very close achievements list to Zest. Zest has 1 WC win, and 2 WC 2nd places. Stats has 3 WC 2nd places, it's not a huuge difference there, 3 is still very impressive especially considering how Soo's 2nd places are valued enough to put him at 8th. And Stats has a few wins at GSL tourneys / Starleagues similar to Zest, as well as several 2nd or top 4 places at GSL tourneys / Starleagues. Main difference to me is Zest getting that late-career GSL Super win, and actually getting a WCS win where Stats didn't. I don't get how Soo is above Stats as well as MVP. Stats has a few wins as well as 2 WC 2nd places, considering this list's criteria said that WC is generally valued only a little more than a GSL/Starleague. That said, anyone below Zest is pretty contentious and it's interesting to see where people place sOs/sOO/MVP/TY/Stats/Taeja/etc. It'll be interesting if Dark might even be placed above Inno considering Dark is still going strong into 2024, years after Inno started to fall off. | ||
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
 Winnings1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251 Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27406 Posts
On January 27 2024 14:11 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Agreed. Sounds like MVP is out, but how is Rain above MVP? And i say this as someone who's always been against MVP being ranked so highly on others' lists, reminding others that he didn't win 4 GSL's but just 3 GSLs and the 4th GSL was a GSL vs the World style tourny with much less money, and with only a Ro16 that was half filled with foreigners who were non-competitive in that era. Heck, even TY above MVP is an interesting take. Also, if longetivity is going to be valued highly on this list, then why Rain over Stats? Stats has a very close achievements list to Zest. Zest has 1 WC win, and 2 WC 2nd places. Stats has 3 WC 2nd places, it's not a huuge difference there, 3 is still very impressive especially considering how Soo's 2nd places are valued enough to put him at 8th. And Stats has a few wins at GSL tourneys / Starleagues similar to Zest, as well as several 2nd or top 4 places at GSL tourneys / Starleagues. Main difference to me is Zest getting that late-career GSL Super win, and actually getting a WCS win where Stats didn't. I don't get how Soo is above Stats as well as MVP. Stats has a few wins as well as 2 WC 2nd places, considering this list's criteria said that WC is generally valued only a little more than a GSL/Starleague. That said, anyone below Zest is pretty contentious and it's interesting to see where people place sOs/sOO/MVP/TY/Stats/Taeja/etc. It'll be interesting if Dark might even be placed above Inno considering Dark is still going strong into 2024, years after Inno started to fall off. I find it hard to make such lists given I do rate innovation and influence quite highly, longevity a little less. A top 15/20 is pretty easy but what order they appear in is quite tricky! It feels to me you either have both Mvp and Rain, or neither, depending on one’s criteria. If a shorter but glorious peak of smacking nerds around is one, then I think you can put them both in no worries, but if a longer stretch is prioritised it’s harder to make a case that they keep a Dark or a Stats out | ||
Waxangel
United States33702 Posts
On January 27 2024 12:10 yht9657 wrote: Stats may not have done enough to deserve top 10 goat but stripping him of a world championship final is kinda disrespecting. ah whoops, caught an error, thanks! | ||
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darklycid
3562 Posts
On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote: If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251 Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain! Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years. | ||
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