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United States1825 Posts
On January 27 2024 12:11 BisuDagger wrote:
Miz, I gotta know, are your final 5 picks set in stone already or are you still changing them as you listen to arguments?
I would be doing a pretty terrible job if i discarded hundreds of hours of prep/research/writing and started going by what people on the forum say...
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If Stats made the list instead of Rain, Mvp top 10 deniers would have a point. But can't have Rain and not Mvp unless the criteria includes "pre Kespa didn't exist".
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On January 27 2024 20:34 Fango wrote:
If Stats made the list instead of Rain, Mvp top 10 deniers would have a point. But can't have Rain and not Mvp unless the criteria includes "pre Kespa didn't exist".
How Can Pre-Kespa Be Real If Our Esf Isn't Real
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Anyway, putting any protoss in a GOAT list is a joke since protoss players are worse and zerg players are just better
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On January 27 2024 09:14 Balnazza wrote:
I'm still not buying into the hype that Mvp is even on this list. Being dominant when the game was new is just not that big of a feat. Sorry for yet again making the side-step to WC3, but I don't feel like DayFly or Madfrog ever were seriously in a Top 10 discussion of all time, considering how fast they dropped out compared to...well, everyone else.
Zest being the best Protoss seems about right. Him not being Top 5 also seems right.
Wc3 list is pretty much set in stone at this point.
Happy moon Lyn infi TH grubby sky remind 120 ted
Maybe some minor order nitpicking but I don't think anyone would challenge those.
They were never in discussion because they didn't really dominate for very long or very convincingly (or both).
Both early wc3 (to like 1.26) and wol were very volatile and in certain aspects insanely broken. If someone is dominant then it's noteworthy. Rare cases when the game takes the meaning away (eg, patchzergs & foggy in kotg patch.)
I think there is more than enough argument for Mvp and company but they aren't going to be "this" list because game influence and pre lotv aren't part of the criteria
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I think my favorite Zest moment was in an in interview after the first ever LOTV GSL finals in 2015. Zest got asked about going down early to TY and what his mindset was like, and he said something to the effect of, "I got worried thinking I couldn't do it, but then I remembered I'm Zest!" Fucking legend lol absolutely deserves to be in the top 10.
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Zest is Best.
I would put him higher bit i'm biased. From what I remember he always seemed to peak in December-January and then ebb and flow the rest of the year which is unfortunate from a Tournament Schedule point of view.
I do hope he comes back this year after military, would love to see Zest compete again!
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Waiting with bated breath to see if Dark cracks the top 5. I think Dark has tragically underperformed in finals, and especially G7s of finals (as Fango has been pointing out in the threads), so if just a few more maps go Dark's way, we'd be seeing him in a very different light. The margin is even tighter than for soO; according to Aligulac, Dark is 1W8L in Premier finals G7s...
By the numbers, he seems to have a pretty strong case, but he never put together a truly dominant-feeling stretch the way the others did, and he drops maps to literally everybody even when he's at his peak. Though the same can be said of Zest, Rogue, and Maru, so... well, fingers crossed, I'll be a very happy fan :D
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On January 27 2024 18:20 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote:If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players:  Winnings1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251 Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain! Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years.
That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down.
Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money.
Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats:
2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.)
2011: 3.2m
2012: 3.9m
2013: 3.5m
2014: 3.3m
2015: 2.6m
2016: 3.0m
2017: 3.4m
2018: 3.5m
2019: 3.2m
2020: 2.2m
2021: 2.0m
2022: 2.1m
2023: 2.0m
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On January 28 2024 01:10 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2024 18:20 darklycid wrote:On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote:If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251 Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain! Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years. That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money. Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats: 2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
On the other hand the prize money in later years got shared among way fewer players
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On January 28 2024 01:10 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2024 18:20 darklycid wrote:On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote:If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251 Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain! Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years. That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money. Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats: 2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
What's hard to understand about "big events"? Yes there were a lot more events which means that if you won a lot, you'd get more money in 2012 than in 2023, but big events pay very differently.
sOs got 300k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon twice, Rogue got 430k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon once.
WESG paid 150k to Innovation, 200k to Maru, but the quality of the tournament is far from being the same as a Blizzcon win (or better I suppose, since it earns you more). It's a freebie until Ro8, unless you count qualifiers, and EVEN THEN, to qualify for blizzcon you had to be great during a year-long circuit, vs being great for one qualifier.
Earnings is a pisspoor metric for being great, and I have no idea how it picked up any steam among the users of this website.
Yes, earnings play a part in the hype of a tournament, but if you compare a win at a Gamers8 that gets announced 4 months before it happens and has qualifiers that seed you straight to the tournament, against a Blizzcon win that had had a year-long WCS circuit, the prestige isn't quite the same (although I'm sure in the eyes of progamers, they don't give a damn, and neither would I in their spot).
Blizzcon gathered the players that were the best that year, with a point system that definitely could be criticized*, but it feels a lot more prestigious than gathering the best of the months of April to August.
*As an example, should the regional winners be guaranteed a spot at Blizzcon? I don't have a definite answer to that, obviously. It wasn't the case in 2013-2015, unlike the 2018 circuit for example, but it's interesting to note that it effectively happened regardless.
Same with IEM Katowice, or what it used to be - the pinnacle of the IEM circuit. Although it was tainted by its open bracket, and I would put it lower than a Blizzcon because of it.
And lower still, you had Dreamhack Winters, the end of the Dreamhack circuit, tainted by the Dreamhack formats (Bo3 in semi-finals), the pure offline part meaning a decent amount of good players didn't qualify because they straight up didn't bother fly there (unlike IEM and its open Server qualifiers), and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year.
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On January 28 2024 01:48 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2024 01:10 imData wrote:On January 27 2024 18:20 darklycid wrote:On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote:If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251 Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain! Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years. That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money. Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats: 2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year.
Doesn't that make the tournament harder to win as opposed to easier? It means all the in-form players will be at the event over the players that were in good form six months earlier and then fell off
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On January 28 2024 01:10 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2024 18:20 darklycid wrote:On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote:If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251 Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain! Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years. That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money. Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats: 2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
Pro league didn't award much prize money. The money was paid out mainly in salary back then and salary isn't included in prize money rankings because we don't know how much players got besides random leaks here and there. It is safe to say based on some of the leaks though that many Kespa pros made more in salary than prize money during those years.
And Katowice being tainted by the open bracket is a crazy take... The open bracket is the exact thing that made it the hardest event of the year, far harder than any Blizzcon. Literally every top player could be present instead of just a handful.
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On January 28 2024 01:57 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2024 01:48 Durnuu wrote:On January 28 2024 01:10 imData wrote:On January 27 2024 18:20 darklycid wrote:On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote:If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251 Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain! Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years. That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money. Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats: 2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year. Doesn't that make the tournament harder to win as opposed to easier? It means all the in-form players will be at the event over the players that were in good form six months earlier and then fell off
It does, but my point wasn't about being hard, it was more about prestige, which is obviously more than just how hard a tournament is - otherwise no one would rank GSL below Blizzcon in 2013, and even diehard Serral fans today won't rank WCS EU above Katowice even if Clem, Reynor and Serral were to make the top 3 of the event while not dropping a single game to koreans.
Why bother making a year-long circuit if you can just show up at the final event? It's supposed to be the "final boss" of the circuit, and some random that has played like crap all year can just show up once and win it? I mean, obviously it would have been impressive in retrospect had it happened. Yet it also kinda sucks to see outsiders in the tournament - regardless of performance.
In a similar way to a korean winning WCS America while not speaking a word of english, for the people that disliked that.
Or, a more similar example is replacement-men. People who shouldn't be there, because they didn't play, or failed to qualify, are in a tournament, skewing what you were building up to. And if you spent an entire year and a circuit to build up to that, well, why bother making a circuit in the first place.
Although this is only mildly related to the initial point, here's an example of what I meant:
IEM Season XI - Shanghai
uThermal replaced Pilipili, who qualified through NA qualifiers. Insane performance by uThermal, I won't take anything away from that. It says more about the region lock and the quality of players outside EU and especially Korea in 2016 than anything else.
But at the same time, why him? He failed to qualify, and in fact he wasn't even the best-player-that-came-just-short, that was Guru. Liquipedia says he was an invite through WCS standings. But why give more points to someone already well ranked? Why give the spot to someone that wasn't good enough initially? It's likely because of availability, obviously. Anyway, not anyone's fault, IEM did its best to find a suitable replacement for a last-minute issue, but it's a good example of why I think having some players qualify through an open bracket is faulty for the end of a circuit.
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On January 28 2024 02:03 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2024 01:10 imData wrote:On January 27 2024 18:20 darklycid wrote:On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote:If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251 Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain! Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years. That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money. Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats: 2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m Pro league didn't award much prize money. The money was paid out mainly in salary back then and salary isn't included in prize money rankings because we don't know how much players got besides random leaks here and there. It is safe to say based on some of the leaks though that many Kespa pros made more in salary than prize money during those years. And Katowice being tainted by the open bracket is a crazy take... The open bracket is the exact thing that made it the hardest event of the year, far harder than any Blizzcon. Literally every top player could be present instead of just a handful.
Every top player... that could afford the plane ticket.
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On January 28 2024 02:03 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2024 01:10 imData wrote:On January 27 2024 18:20 darklycid wrote:On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote:If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251 Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain! Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years. That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money. Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats: 2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m Pro league didn't award much prize money. The money was paid out mainly in salary back then and salary isn't included in prize money rankings because we don't know how much players got besides random leaks here and there. It is safe to say based on some of the leaks though that many Kespa pros made more in salary than prize money during those years. And Katowice being tainted by the open bracket is a crazy take... The open bracket is the exact thing that made it the hardest event of the year, far harder than any Blizzcon. Literally every top player could be present instead of just a handful.
I wouldn't say Katowice is "tainted" by the open bracket, but there clearly is a difference in prestige if you can just show up for an event or have to qualify for it throughout the year.
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On January 28 2024 01:48 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2024 01:10 imData wrote:On January 27 2024 18:20 darklycid wrote:On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote:If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251 Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain! Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years. That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money. Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats: 2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m What's hard to understand about "big events"? Yes there were a lot more events which means that if you won a lot, you'd get more money in 2012 than in 2023, but big events pay very differently. sOs got 300k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon twice, Rogue got 430k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon once. WESG paid 150k to Innovation, 200k to Maru, but the quality of the tournament is far from being the same as a Blizzcon win (or better I suppose, since it earns you more). It's a freebie until Ro8, unless you count qualifiers, and EVEN THEN, to qualify for blizzcon you had to be great during a year-long circuit, vs being great for one qualifier. Earnings is a pisspoor metric for being great, and I have no idea how it picked up any steam among the users of this website. Yes, earnings play a part in the hype of a tournament, but if you compare a win at a Gamers8 that gets announced 4 months before it happens and has qualifiers that seed you straight to the tournament, against a Blizzcon win that had had a year-long WCS circuit, the prestige isn't quite the same (although I'm sure in the eyes of progamers, they don't give a damn, and neither would I in their spot). Blizzcon gathered the players that were the best that year, with a point system that definitely could be criticized*, but it feels a lot more prestigious than gathering the best of the months of April to August. *As an example, should the regional winners be guaranteed a spot at Blizzcon? I don't have a definite answer to that, obviously. It wasn't the case in 2013-2015, unlike the 2018 circuit for example, but it's interesting to note that it effectively happened regardless. Same with IEM Katowice, or what it used to be - the pinnacle of the IEM circuit. Although it was tainted by its open bracket, and I would put it lower than a Blizzcon because of it. And lower still, you had Dreamhack Winters, the end of the Dreamhack circuit, tainted by the Dreamhack formats (Bo3 in semi-finals), the pure offline part meaning a decent amount of good players didn't qualify because they straight up didn't bother fly there (unlike IEM and its open Server qualifiers), and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year.
I was thinking about big events. Compare the top prize of big events back then and now and you'll see. Sure at that time there was no tournament that had a 500k$ prize pool but that's 2 tournaments per year nowadays, the rest of them rarely get over 50k$. Back then we had a lot of tournaments that had 100-150k$ prize pool.
So yes, the biggest tournaments are bigger nowadays, but the average big events used to be bigger before.
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On January 28 2024 04:05 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2024 01:48 Durnuu wrote:On January 28 2024 01:10 imData wrote:On January 27 2024 18:20 darklycid wrote:On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote:If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251 Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain! Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years. That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money. Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats: 2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m What's hard to understand about "big events"? Yes there were a lot more events which means that if you won a lot, you'd get more money in 2012 than in 2023, but big events pay very differently. sOs got 300k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon twice, Rogue got 430k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon once. WESG paid 150k to Innovation, 200k to Maru, but the quality of the tournament is far from being the same as a Blizzcon win (or better I suppose, since it earns you more). It's a freebie until Ro8, unless you count qualifiers, and EVEN THEN, to qualify for blizzcon you had to be great during a year-long circuit, vs being great for one qualifier. Earnings is a pisspoor metric for being great, and I have no idea how it picked up any steam among the users of this website. Yes, earnings play a part in the hype of a tournament, but if you compare a win at a Gamers8 that gets announced 4 months before it happens and has qualifiers that seed you straight to the tournament, against a Blizzcon win that had had a year-long WCS circuit, the prestige isn't quite the same (although I'm sure in the eyes of progamers, they don't give a damn, and neither would I in their spot). Blizzcon gathered the players that were the best that year, with a point system that definitely could be criticized*, but it feels a lot more prestigious than gathering the best of the months of April to August. *As an example, should the regional winners be guaranteed a spot at Blizzcon? I don't have a definite answer to that, obviously. It wasn't the case in 2013-2015, unlike the 2018 circuit for example, but it's interesting to note that it effectively happened regardless. Same with IEM Katowice, or what it used to be - the pinnacle of the IEM circuit. Although it was tainted by its open bracket, and I would put it lower than a Blizzcon because of it. And lower still, you had Dreamhack Winters, the end of the Dreamhack circuit, tainted by the Dreamhack formats (Bo3 in semi-finals), the pure offline part meaning a decent amount of good players didn't qualify because they straight up didn't bother fly there (unlike IEM and its open Server qualifiers), and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year. I was thinking about big events. Compare the top prize of big events back then and now and you'll see. Sure at that time there was no tournament that had a 500k$ prize pool but that's 2 tournaments per year nowadays, the rest of them rarely get over 50k$. Back then we had a lot of tournaments that had 100-150k$ prize pool. So yes, the biggest tournaments are bigger nowadays, but the average big events used to be bigger before.
I mean imagine mvp would hwve gotten 280k instead of 50k for his blizzcon win and like 200k instead of 20k for his wcg (which would be the equivalent to wesg for me) and suddenly he is at like 800k instead of 400k.
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On January 28 2024 05:08 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2024 04:05 imData wrote:On January 28 2024 01:48 Durnuu wrote:On January 28 2024 01:10 imData wrote:On January 27 2024 18:20 darklycid wrote:On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote:If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251 Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain! Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years. That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money. Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats: 2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m What's hard to understand about "big events"? Yes there were a lot more events which means that if you won a lot, you'd get more money in 2012 than in 2023, but big events pay very differently. sOs got 300k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon twice, Rogue got 430k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon once. WESG paid 150k to Innovation, 200k to Maru, but the quality of the tournament is far from being the same as a Blizzcon win (or better I suppose, since it earns you more). It's a freebie until Ro8, unless you count qualifiers, and EVEN THEN, to qualify for blizzcon you had to be great during a year-long circuit, vs being great for one qualifier. Earnings is a pisspoor metric for being great, and I have no idea how it picked up any steam among the users of this website. Yes, earnings play a part in the hype of a tournament, but if you compare a win at a Gamers8 that gets announced 4 months before it happens and has qualifiers that seed you straight to the tournament, against a Blizzcon win that had had a year-long WCS circuit, the prestige isn't quite the same (although I'm sure in the eyes of progamers, they don't give a damn, and neither would I in their spot). Blizzcon gathered the players that were the best that year, with a point system that definitely could be criticized*, but it feels a lot more prestigious than gathering the best of the months of April to August. *As an example, should the regional winners be guaranteed a spot at Blizzcon? I don't have a definite answer to that, obviously. It wasn't the case in 2013-2015, unlike the 2018 circuit for example, but it's interesting to note that it effectively happened regardless. Same with IEM Katowice, or what it used to be - the pinnacle of the IEM circuit. Although it was tainted by its open bracket, and I would put it lower than a Blizzcon because of it. And lower still, you had Dreamhack Winters, the end of the Dreamhack circuit, tainted by the Dreamhack formats (Bo3 in semi-finals), the pure offline part meaning a decent amount of good players didn't qualify because they straight up didn't bother fly there (unlike IEM and its open Server qualifiers), and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year. I was thinking about big events. Compare the top prize of big events back then and now and you'll see. Sure at that time there was no tournament that had a 500k$ prize pool but that's 2 tournaments per year nowadays, the rest of them rarely get over 50k$. Back then we had a lot of tournaments that had 100-150k$ prize pool. So yes, the biggest tournaments are bigger nowadays, but the average big events used to be bigger before. I mean imagine mvp would hwve gotten 280k instead of 50k for his blizzcon win and like 200k instead of 20k for his wcg (which would be the equivalent to wesg for me) and suddenly he is at like 800k instead of 400k.
I think that's fair. A lot of the prize pools were mismatched with the competition of the event, WECG being some of the most egregious and well, any US/EU WCS before 2016. But I think you shouldn't increase the weight of a tournament because its prize pool is high, but you can increase the weight of a tournament because its competitiveness is. So I would never give high priority to WCG/WECG. The Korean qualifiers for those tournaments were always more competitive than the actual tournaments. You can give Mvp "$200k" for his Blizzcon win, but I don't think you can give him $200k for his WCG where he had to beat Xigua in the finals...
I think if Mvp maintained comparable form for a few more years, he could be seen at the same level as Serral or Maru, but because he expired in less than 2 years, I don't think he gets to. He was essentially irrelevant by 2014. Not GOAT material!
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On January 28 2024 06:25 Blargh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2024 05:08 darklycid wrote:On January 28 2024 04:05 imData wrote:On January 28 2024 01:48 Durnuu wrote:On January 28 2024 01:10 imData wrote:On January 27 2024 18:20 darklycid wrote:On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote:If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251 Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain! Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years. That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money. Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats: 2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m What's hard to understand about "big events"? Yes there were a lot more events which means that if you won a lot, you'd get more money in 2012 than in 2023, but big events pay very differently. sOs got 300k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon twice, Rogue got 430k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon once. WESG paid 150k to Innovation, 200k to Maru, but the quality of the tournament is far from being the same as a Blizzcon win (or better I suppose, since it earns you more). It's a freebie until Ro8, unless you count qualifiers, and EVEN THEN, to qualify for blizzcon you had to be great during a year-long circuit, vs being great for one qualifier. Earnings is a pisspoor metric for being great, and I have no idea how it picked up any steam among the users of this website. Yes, earnings play a part in the hype of a tournament, but if you compare a win at a Gamers8 that gets announced 4 months before it happens and has qualifiers that seed you straight to the tournament, against a Blizzcon win that had had a year-long WCS circuit, the prestige isn't quite the same (although I'm sure in the eyes of progamers, they don't give a damn, and neither would I in their spot). Blizzcon gathered the players that were the best that year, with a point system that definitely could be criticized*, but it feels a lot more prestigious than gathering the best of the months of April to August. *As an example, should the regional winners be guaranteed a spot at Blizzcon? I don't have a definite answer to that, obviously. It wasn't the case in 2013-2015, unlike the 2018 circuit for example, but it's interesting to note that it effectively happened regardless. Same with IEM Katowice, or what it used to be - the pinnacle of the IEM circuit. Although it was tainted by its open bracket, and I would put it lower than a Blizzcon because of it. And lower still, you had Dreamhack Winters, the end of the Dreamhack circuit, tainted by the Dreamhack formats (Bo3 in semi-finals), the pure offline part meaning a decent amount of good players didn't qualify because they straight up didn't bother fly there (unlike IEM and its open Server qualifiers), and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year. I was thinking about big events. Compare the top prize of big events back then and now and you'll see. Sure at that time there was no tournament that had a 500k$ prize pool but that's 2 tournaments per year nowadays, the rest of them rarely get over 50k$. Back then we had a lot of tournaments that had 100-150k$ prize pool. So yes, the biggest tournaments are bigger nowadays, but the average big events used to be bigger before. I mean imagine mvp would hwve gotten 280k instead of 50k for his blizzcon win and like 200k instead of 20k for his wcg (which would be the equivalent to wesg for me) and suddenly he is at like 800k instead of 400k. I think that's fair. A lot of the prize pools were mismatched with the competition of the event, WECG being some of the most egregious and well, any US/EU WCS before 2016. But I think you shouldn't increase the weight of a tournament because its prize pool is high, but you can increase the weight of a tournament because its competitiveness is. So I would never give high priority to WCG/WECG. The Korean qualifiers for those tournaments were always more competitive than the actual tournaments. You can give Mvp "$200k" for his Blizzcon win, but I don't think you can give him $200k for his WCG where he had to beat Xigua in the finals... I think if Mvp maintained comparable form for a few more years, he could be seen at the same level as Serral or Maru, but because he expired in less than 2 years, I don't think he gets to. He was essentially irrelevant by 2014. Not GOAT material!
I mean you brought up prize money so i just presented why prize money favors players that started to peak later than earlier.
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EPT
