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MVP should be on this list.
soO is not top 10.
theres no way rain or SoS are above MVP.
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On January 28 2024 06:30 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2024 06:25 Blargh wrote:On January 28 2024 05:08 darklycid wrote:On January 28 2024 04:05 imData wrote:On January 28 2024 01:48 Durnuu wrote:On January 28 2024 01:10 imData wrote:On January 27 2024 18:20 darklycid wrote:On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote:If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players:  Winnings1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251 Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain! Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years. That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money. Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats: 2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m What's hard to understand about "big events"? Yes there were a lot more events which means that if you won a lot, you'd get more money in 2012 than in 2023, but big events pay very differently. sOs got 300k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon twice, Rogue got 430k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon once. WESG paid 150k to Innovation, 200k to Maru, but the quality of the tournament is far from being the same as a Blizzcon win (or better I suppose, since it earns you more). It's a freebie until Ro8, unless you count qualifiers, and EVEN THEN, to qualify for blizzcon you had to be great during a year-long circuit, vs being great for one qualifier. Earnings is a pisspoor metric for being great, and I have no idea how it picked up any steam among the users of this website. Yes, earnings play a part in the hype of a tournament, but if you compare a win at a Gamers8 that gets announced 4 months before it happens and has qualifiers that seed you straight to the tournament, against a Blizzcon win that had had a year-long WCS circuit, the prestige isn't quite the same (although I'm sure in the eyes of progamers, they don't give a damn, and neither would I in their spot). Blizzcon gathered the players that were the best that year, with a point system that definitely could be criticized*, but it feels a lot more prestigious than gathering the best of the months of April to August. *As an example, should the regional winners be guaranteed a spot at Blizzcon? I don't have a definite answer to that, obviously. It wasn't the case in 2013-2015, unlike the 2018 circuit for example, but it's interesting to note that it effectively happened regardless. Same with IEM Katowice, or what it used to be - the pinnacle of the IEM circuit. Although it was tainted by its open bracket, and I would put it lower than a Blizzcon because of it. And lower still, you had Dreamhack Winters, the end of the Dreamhack circuit, tainted by the Dreamhack formats (Bo3 in semi-finals), the pure offline part meaning a decent amount of good players didn't qualify because they straight up didn't bother fly there (unlike IEM and its open Server qualifiers), and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year. I was thinking about big events. Compare the top prize of big events back then and now and you'll see. Sure at that time there was no tournament that had a 500k$ prize pool but that's 2 tournaments per year nowadays, the rest of them rarely get over 50k$. Back then we had a lot of tournaments that had 100-150k$ prize pool. So yes, the biggest tournaments are bigger nowadays, but the average big events used to be bigger before. I mean imagine mvp would hwve gotten 280k instead of 50k for his blizzcon win and like 200k instead of 20k for his wcg (which would be the equivalent to wesg for me) and suddenly he is at like 800k instead of 400k. I think that's fair. A lot of the prize pools were mismatched with the competition of the event, WECG being some of the most egregious and well, any US/EU WCS before 2016. But I think you shouldn't increase the weight of a tournament because its prize pool is high, but you can increase the weight of a tournament because its competitiveness is. So I would never give high priority to WCG/WECG. The Korean qualifiers for those tournaments were always more competitive than the actual tournaments. You can give Mvp "$200k" for his Blizzcon win, but I don't think you can give him $200k for his WCG where he had to beat Xigua in the finals... I think if Mvp maintained comparable form for a few more years, he could be seen at the same level as Serral or Maru, but because he expired in less than 2 years, I don't think he gets to. He was essentially irrelevant by 2014. Not GOAT material! I mean you brought up prize money so i just presented why prize money favors players that started to peak later than earlier.
Sorry, my point wasn't really that prize money was the best metric for judging how well someone performed, but it certainly is correlative of that. You can disregard Maru's two WECG's and he'd still be at $900k. His GSLs weren't worth more than Mvp's (~$35k for Maru, ~$45k for Mvp, and ignoring the ~25% inflation since 2011 too). Close to the majority of Maru's earnings are from high placements in Korean starcraft leagues and global finals (GSL/SSL/WCS KR) at $500k even. Mvp has about $325k from those leagues. The big difference between the two comes from Maru having placed top 8 in Korean leagues for three times as long as Mvp's brief dominant reign.
Also, worth noting that the total amount of money in SC2 has decreased significantly since 2020. If you adjust for inflation, 2011-14 would be the biggest years of SC2 earnings, and 2021-2023 would be the worst, especially after inflation (~25% since 2012).
2010: 2%
2011: 8%
2012: 10%
2013: 10%
2014: 9%
2015: 7.5%
2016: 9%
2017: 11%
2018: 11%
2019: 10%
2020: 5.5%
2021: 4.5%
2022: 6%
2023: 5.5%
Obviously now in 2024, where GSL finals earn you a whopping $7500, its sad to even compare. But the competition is also probably proportionally worse now vs 2013. I don't really weigh Maru's 2023 wins highly. Even his 2018 ones are nothing compared to his 2013 WCS KR and 2015 SSL. But I think it becomes infinitely harder to judge when considering each years competition.
All I know is that Rain doesn't belong here!
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Rogue won $280K in one tournament that he was one game away from not even qualifying for.
Remember when Dear won GSL? First place was 20K. The very next season, Zest won for 70K
That's how much prize money can vary, it's a pointless measure of greatness.
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I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
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zest may only be number 6 on the list of best SC2 players of all time, but he's definitely number 1 on the list of most handsome SC2 players of all time.
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On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
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And the GOAT does it again. One more in the bag for Serral. And what a run!!
User was warned for this post.
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On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10.
if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
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On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
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On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
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On January 28 2024 07:39 spirit76 wrote:
MVP should be on this list.
soO is not top 10.
theres no way rain or SoS are above MVP.
Sure, because 3 world championships in 3 years during the peak of good players being active is something that people achieve all the time...
On January 28 2024 19:37 negativedge wrote:
zest may only be number 6 on the list of best SC2 players of all time, but he's definitely number 1 on the list of most handsome SC2 players of all time.
Now, that is also an interesting top10. Let me start thinking about the roaster:
Zest, Showtime, Clem, Reynor, herO, Dark (mustache version), ...
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Bisu may have been shit at SC2 but he'd easily make that list.
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I started watching the games, just to listen to Tastosis commenting on Zeratuls smoking habits. Classic xD
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On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
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On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts.
During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
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France13011 Posts
On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
Really? Not even the most dominant player in his region, during the least competitive era + Zerg favored era, comparable to mvp?
He even tried GSL.
I would even maybe go as far as to argue that Oliveira has a better case than Reynor in a foreign goat list, as the first foreign Terran to win a WC, in an incredible run
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Northern Ireland27252 Posts
On January 29 2024 05:27 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem Really? Not even the most dominant player in his region, during the least competitive era + Zerg favored era, comparable to mvp? He even tried GSL. I would even maybe go as far as to argue that Oliveira has a better case than Reynor in a foreign goat list, as the first foreign Terran to win a WC, in an incredible run
I maybe well, wouldn’t go that far :p
Oliveira isn’t even a lock to be at the business end of regional finals, regular international tournies, or even matched what Reynor did in Korea.
One of the all-time great tournament weekends, and a lot of talent undoubtedly but I can’t think of a single area he has Reynor beat in. And they’re about the same age too, if Oliveira was 15/16 now and had done what he did you could maybe make a ‘it’s a shame the scene is gradually declining because this prodigy is probably going to see the game shrink before they get to show their talent’ kind of case. As some would argue that Jangbi and Fantasy didn’t get to climb as far as they could have in the GOAT list as BW ended in its Kespa form.
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France13011 Posts
On January 29 2024 05:45 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 05:27 Poopi wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem Really? Not even the most dominant player in his region, during the least competitive era + Zerg favored era, comparable to mvp? He even tried GSL. I would even maybe go as far as to argue that Oliveira has a better case than Reynor in a foreign goat list, as the first foreign Terran to win a WC, in an incredible run I maybe well, wouldn’t go that far :p Oliveira isn’t even a lock to be at the business end of regional finals, regular international tournies, or even matched what Reynor did in Korea. One of the all-time great tournament weekends, and a lot of talent undoubtedly but I can’t think of a single area he has Reynor beat in. And they’re about the same age too, if Oliveira was 15/16 now and had done what he did you could maybe make a ‘it’s a shame the scene is gradually declining because this prodigy is probably going to see the game shrink before they get to show their talent’ kind of case. As some would argue that Jangbi and Fantasy didn’t get to climb as far as they could have in the GOAT list as BW ended in its Kespa form.
It was an exaggeration but still, Reynor in nowhere near mvp in a goat list.
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On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote:On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote:On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote:On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
Mvp mostly accomplished his feats in the pre-Kespa/Proleague era, when the game was fresh and people tried to figure it out. He had one good year and was basically done afterwards. Reynor is now in the top 5 of the world for years, top 10 easily by 5+ years. He won his World Championship in a tournament in which all three of the usual GOAT-Contenders were present, beating one of them (Maru) in the process, while also winning against the biggest Challenger (Dark) and probably the best Protoss (Zest) of all time.
That tournament alone is far more impressive than Mvp's GSLs, won against players you probably wouldn't even put into a Top 50...or when exactly do TOP, MarineKing and Squirtle come in your personal list of the best players of all time?
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era".
Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
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EPT
