EPT[D] Day and night being optional to melee maps? - Page 2
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Tyrio
United States3248 Posts
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020644
United States2 Posts
in sc1, map makers are arrogant fuckers who dream of having their "new" (over-complicated and tacky) concepts revolutionizing the game. then they whine and flame players for not being "open-minded" (gullible) enough to play their maps. day/night adds fuel to their fire, so it's a bad idea. | ||
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TheShizno
United States112 Posts
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tec27
United States3702 Posts
On August 04 2007 21:28 TheShizno wrote: Where did you get that from? I certainly found UMS fun to play when I got tired of melee He's talking about melee maps, not UMS. Stuff like mineral walls, neutral building walls, etc. | ||
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020644
United States2 Posts
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TheShizno
United States112 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
I'd like to see some more discussion on night/day cycles as it's something I've been thinking about lately. I haven't heard anything on blizzard's stance on this, but I feel the reception here has been overly critical. What exactly is wrong with it? I'm going to almost assume it will be in the map editor (it is in WC3's editor right?), but what's interesting is wether it should be a part of ladder maps or not. Eventually, if it's in the map editor, it will probably make its way into competitive play but that will take a while. I'm not sure why people have reacted so negatively to it, seeing as how it doesnt have to be in every map and doesn't even have to be available from every tileset. The jungle, desert and snow tilesets it would work fine on for instance. So, do I want it all the time? Nah. Do I want it at all? Maybe  ? The effect doesn't have to be drastical, ie the loss of vision doesn't have to be 50% it could be 20 or 25% or what have you. Further, the duration doesn't have to be the same either, map specific day/night cycles could lead to interesting situations, just as long as the effect is not big enough to lead to one side stalling during one part of the cycle.Ok this might be a little rambly but I wanted to bring the topic to up before I went to bed. | ||
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TheOvermind77
United States923 Posts
I think it is a great idea to have day/night cycles, although not on every map. -25% global loss to vision could change gameplay a bit during the night and would definitely provide for interesting gameplay. It isn't as drastic as "natural disasters" or anything, but I think it looks cool and is cool. | ||
KwarK
United States43350 Posts
It all depends on if the mapmakers can get it to work. Early bw mapmakers had no clue (blade storm excluded) and it took a while for people to work out what made a good map. I expect the same in SC2. Basically, we have no idea what a good SC2 map will look like so the idea that we can rule stuff out is silly. We should give mapmakers as many options as we can and just trial and improvement it. | ||
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
That said I think the most freedom we have when making melee maps the better. If we can add day/night cycle to the list of tools a map maker can use to change the flavor or MU balance of his map, then I'm all for it. Not only you could add day/night control only as visual flavor. But you could also add it as a mechanism that would affect game balance on that map, favor some units and not others. For example. If night reduces the sight range of siege tanks but not the sight range of protoss stalkers. Then PvT mid-game would be easier at night (T may get something to make up for it later). So you have this map with a 20% win rate PvT because for whatever reason T gets too much advantage mid-game. Then the map maker could set the map to change to night on mid-game to try to balance it. So what I think they should do is try to first of all understand what units are gonna be commonly used on each MU. Then put one advantage and one downside for those units, for each time state (day/night), for each game state (early, mid, late game). Example: if zvt early game = ling/bane vs rine/marauder then make lings banelings faster at night while marauders slow better at day. So map makers could shift early game balance to either race by changing day/night cycle timing. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
Terrans would be hit way more than Zerg, many of their units can shoot further than they can see in SC - Zerg are mostly melee/short range. What if for example night comes in while the ghost channels a nuke? In WC3 that wasn´t so bad since each side had melee units, and I don´t have to argue for Night Elves do I? Timed global events (like night etc...) are only fair if they affect each side equally or if the "advantage" is carefully balanced in, in WC3 only the Night elves have to really pay attention to day/night. | ||
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GeneralStan
United States4789 Posts
I especially find the thought of night falling and the zerg hoarde charging a terran emplacement in the dark to be frighting and awesome. | ||
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
I'm not sure what sort of benefit you could give T in reverse during day... | ||
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mikeymoo
Canada7170 Posts
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ShcShc
Canada912 Posts
On April 30 2008 11:28 FrozenArbiter wrote: Before we begin - yes this is an almost year old thread, yes it's an intentional bump. I'd like to see some more discussion on night/day cycles as it's something I've been thinking about lately. I haven't heard anything on blizzard's stance on this, but I feel the reception here has been overly critical. What exactly is wrong with it? I'm going to almost assume it will be in the map editor (it is in WC3's editor right?), but what's interesting is wether it should be a part of ladder maps or not. Eventually, if it's in the map editor, it will probably make its way into competitive play but that will take a while. I'm not sure why people have reacted so negatively to it, seeing as how it doesnt have to be in every map and doesn't even have to be available from every tileset. The jungle, desert and snow tilesets it would work fine on for instance. So, do I want it all the time? Nah. Do I want it at all? Maybe ? The effect doesn't have to be drastical, ie the loss of vision doesn't have to be 50% it could be 20 or 25% or what have you. Further, the duration doesn't have to be the same either, map specific day/night cycles could lead to interesting situations, just as long as the effect is not big enough to lead to one side stalling during one part of the cycle.Ok this might be a little rambly but I wanted to bring the topic to up before I went to bed. Yes. I agree with FrozenArbiter. If we are using "Dark Swarm" and "Disruption webs" on professional maps, then I don't see why day/night cycle could be implemented on certain maps. It would be similar to the "Demon Forest" map which had a great idea but 1) was too buggy 2) slightly too "extreme" I approve the idea : ) | ||
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paper
13196 Posts
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sushiman
Sweden2691 Posts
 But if there's no impact on gameplay from it, I think it's nice. Seeing marines with small shoulderlamps and glowing protoss units during the night would be nice eyecandy. | ||
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Doctorasul
Romania1145 Posts
On April 30 2008 13:31 zobz wrote: I think it might be awkward for a very timing-based game to have a day/night cycle. I think it might be too hard to forsee what time of day it will be when a certain timing comes up, a timing when you might want to be making your big push, and if it became night unexpectedly the timing might be lost, due to increased threat of ambushes. You can't really anticipate while designing your build order and game plan pre-match, what time of day it will be when you reach a certain supply or anything, because of all the various adaptations you have to make throughout the game. That means you'd have to be able to sense this independent linear time cycle and how it will overlap your non-linear adaptive push timing, and further adapt your timing with that in mind. Worse, if some more unexpected developements suddenly changed your ideal push timing to night time after you'd already invested alot towards that timing, it could be really hard to adapt. Everything you said makes me want day/night cycles even more. How is making the game more difficult a bad thing? | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On April 30 2008 13:31 zobz wrote: I think it might be awkward for a very timing-based game to have a day/night cycle. I think it might be too hard to forsee what time of day it will be when a certain timing comes up, a timing when you might want to be making your big push, and if it became night unexpectedly the timing might be lost, due to increased threat of ambushes. You can't really anticipate while designing your build order and game plan pre-match, what time of day it will be when you reach a certain supply or anything, because of all the various adaptations you have to make throughout the game. That means you'd have to be able to sense this independent linear time cycle and how it will overlap your non-linear adaptive push timing, and further adapt your timing with that in mind. Worse, if some more unexpected developements suddenly changed your ideal push timing to night time after you'd already invested alot towards that timing, it could be really hard to adapt. I actually like these implications, it would add some cool situations where you can stall someone until dark etc. Btw I think I forgot to add, but I of course think the option to set how long a day/night is and set it to eternal night/day, should be in. | ||
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