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This is just an idea (so no need for any flaming guys!)
...but could it be a good idea to have an optional "day/night cycle" à la Warcraft 3?
Just like how the neutral observation building is optional to the melee map creator, this too should be optional.
This means that some maps would have a day/night cycle and some others won't depending on how the map creator wants it.
Hell, the map creator should choose the length of the day and of the night (this would make more sense since this is the UNIVERSE of Starcraft  )
At the same time, this concept should be kept simple (i.e: no specific day/night upgrades and all units' sight just get slashed by a certain percentage, maybe 50%?).
This could possibly favor certain race so it should definitely be an optional choice for the map creator; so he could maybe create a terrain that might favor X race but would also implement a day/night cycle to rebalance the whole map.
The map creator would thus have more "options" when he creates his maps (just like how sc map creators are experimenting with disruption webs here and there).
Anyway. just an idea.
Good ?
Bad ? (if so, flame away! :D)
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I guess this would be a nice feature to have for UMS, but I really see no use for it in melee other than aesthetically.
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Could be an option for the mapmaker in ums maps etc.
But I think Id prefer to not have any day/night cycles in normal multiplayer games.
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On August 04 2007 17:47 mahnini wrote:
I guess this would be a nice feature to have for UMS, but I really see no use for it in melee other than aesthetically.
I'm guessing the players would have to play differently?
A tank with let's say 50% less sight would be in a great disadvantage and so the players would try to play differently to maximise its efficiency?
Or perhaps possibilities of more surprise "ambushes"?
I'm not too sure on this idea either though.
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Day/Night is fine with me so long as its merely cosmetic!
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I hope the Day/Night isn't just cosmetic. The system is great in WC3 because it's NOT merely cosmetic. I like the whole vision loss thing and the Moon Wells regenning only at night and what not.
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On August 04 2007 17:53 red.venom wrote:
Day/Night is fine with me so long as its merely cosmetic!
well (my) idea of the day/night cycle is to have a difference in units' sights (i.e: slash 50% of their sight?) so that it would add more variation to each maps.
This would inevitably favor X race so the map creator could use it to rebalance the map.
So if he realizes the terrain he made favors the Terran, maybe he could add day/night cycle so that zerg could more easily flank the Terrans.
That's (my) idea of day/night cycle (the map creator should also say how long they are.. so maybe 70% of the time, it's day and only 30% of the time is night in 1 cycle)
It should be less important than Warcraft 3 but it should still hold some importance.
(Maybe other people have other ideas)
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I think it just over complicates the game. Then you'll have people only waiting till night or whatever to attack. I dunno.
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On August 04 2007 18:07 atmablade wrote:
UMS. /endthread
That's what I thought first.
But if we look at the pro maps being created now, it does seem map creators use "UMS" elements to enhance melee maps... such as adding walls to block off certain passages, putting disruption web on the terrain (like in the infamous DMZ map) and putting mineral lines to block the passage.
Problem with day and night cycle:
-It probably shouldn't be permanent or else people (such as I) would cry Warcraft 3... but I certainly do believe it could add something to the game (especially the reduction of vision) -> so it should be optional by the melee map creators
-If it is actually optional; then it shouldn't overcomplicate the game with unnecessary night upgrades or whatnot... so it should be limited to "All units' sights are reduced by 50% or so".
So that in way, it would add more options to map melee creators just the way walls/disruption webs are starting to be added to OSL/MSL/Proleague maps.
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No. Keep that shit to War3.
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cosmetic and on UMS i think would be a good idea 
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it should definatly be an option, and maybe some maps u choose it to cycle, then others u choose fixed day and another fixed night. but yeah would be a nice cosmetic feature
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Battles in SC are fucking epic. Its not about little skirmishers with 10 ppl and shit, its about gigantic armies fighting thousands of miles in space, not today I buy go shopping at tavern, tomorrow I go harass your female orc peon named Nancy when I wake up. There is no shit like day and light cycles on space platforms and asteroids. There might be 10 stars nearby or none at all. Battle in SC is 24/7 under any conditions. If I can cast black holes, I'm not relying on your puny sun to change my line of sight.
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I would want it to be an option, just because an installation with darkened vision from "nighttime" looks much more installationish with bad lighting. Pretty much it would only be used in UMS, since it would screw up melee. xD At least for a while.
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Cosmetic night/day would be nice and add atmosphere to maps, I'm sure they'll add it for singleplayer purposes.
I don't think it should mess with melee at all, as its a factor that changes too much (sight range is extremely important.)
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On August 04 2007 18:23 Aphelion wrote:
Battles in SC are fucking epic. Its not about little skirmishers with 10 ppl and shit, its about gigantic armies fighting thousands of miles in space, not today I buy go shopping at tavern, tomorrow I go harass your female orc peon named Nancy when I wake up. There is no shit like day and light cycles on space platforms and asteroids. There might be 10 stars nearby or none at all. Battle in SC is 24/7 under any conditions. If I can cast black holes, I'm not relying on your puny sun to change my line of sight.
Well just because a mothership could cast black holes, doesn't mean a marine isin't affected by the dark. And eitherway, like I said it should be optional (fixed day, fixed night, perhaps a combination of both)...
Day cycle doesn't necessarily rely "on the sun" either. Could rely on artificial lightings or I don't know what.
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On August 04 2007 18:32 GuGo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2007 18:23 Aphelion wrote:
Battles in SC are fucking epic. Its not about little skirmishers with 10 ppl and shit, its about gigantic armies fighting thousands of miles in space, not today I buy go shopping at tavern, tomorrow I go harass your female orc peon named Nancy when I wake up. There is no shit like day and light cycles on space platforms and asteroids. There might be 10 stars nearby or none at all. Battle in SC is 24/7 under any conditions. If I can cast black holes, I'm not relying on your puny sun to change my line of sight. Well just because a mothership could cast black holes, doesn't mean a marine isin't affected by the dark. And eitherway, like I said it should be optional (fixed day, fixed night, perhaps a combination of both)... Day cycle doesn't necessarily rely "on the sun" either. Could rely on artificial lightings or I don't know what.
So if I'm the Terran starting with a CC and desperately trying to mine more minerals so I can build a bunker to defend against the horde, I'm going to be providing lighting for the whole damn platform?
Also War3 battles are localized, thats why day-night cycle makes sense. SC is grand and epic, we're above that.
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isnt starcraft in space though
wait a minute nevermind i thought there was night and day there =p whoops
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It would be stupid to have this cycle in starcraft because it no race really benefits from it, unlike wc3 where the night elf can regenerate hp/moon well and hide in the nighttime.
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At night, your tanks have a significantly higher chance to shell your own troops.
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NO
in sc1, map makers are arrogant fuckers who dream of having their "new" (over-complicated and tacky) concepts revolutionizing the game. then they whine and flame players for not being "open-minded" (gullible) enough to play their maps.
day/night adds fuel to their fire, so it's a bad idea.
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Where did you get that from? I certainly found UMS fun to play when I got tired of melee
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On August 04 2007 21:28 TheShizno wrote:
Where did you get that from? I certainly found UMS fun to play when I got tired of melee
He's talking about melee maps, not UMS. Stuff like mineral walls, neutral building walls, etc.
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i play ums too, i'm talking about people who make gay maps with tons of swarms, webs, and doodads spammed all over the map
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Oh, ok. Thanks for clarifying that 
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Sweden33719 Posts
Before we begin - yes this is an almost year old thread, yes it's an intentional bump.
I'd like to see some more discussion on night/day cycles as it's something I've been thinking about lately. I haven't heard anything on blizzard's stance on this, but I feel the reception here has been overly critical.
What exactly is wrong with it? I'm going to almost assume it will be in the map editor (it is in WC3's editor right?), but what's interesting is wether it should be a part of ladder maps or not. Eventually, if it's in the map editor, it will probably make its way into competitive play but that will take a while.
I'm not sure why people have reacted so negatively to it, seeing as how it doesnt have to be in every map and doesn't even have to be available from every tileset. The jungle, desert and snow tilesets it would work fine on for instance.
So, do I want it all the time? Nah. Do I want it at all? Maybe ? The effect doesn't have to be drastical, ie the loss of vision doesn't have to be 50% it could be 20 or 25% or what have you. Further, the duration doesn't have to be the same either, map specific day/night cycles could lead to interesting situations, just as long as the effect is not big enough to lead to one side stalling during one part of the cycle.
Ok this might be a little rambly but I wanted to bring the topic to up before I went to bed.
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Good bump, I didn't catch this topic when it was last up.
I think it is a great idea to have day/night cycles, although not on every map. -25% global loss to vision could change gameplay a bit during the night and would definitely provide for interesting gameplay. It isn't as drastic as "natural disasters" or anything, but I think it looks cool and is cool.
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United States43350 Posts
I think it's fair to say that if you can imagine it, it ought to be in the map editor. Simply because that way the map makers have as much potential as possible. Take Troy, it's basically your standard bridge map. You can damage a building which makes the route harder to cross, and then uncrossable. By intelligent use of what they have they have created an awesome map. Or Demon's Forest, the idea behind it was that you had no vision in the middle. The map sucked but that was only because the editor could not create the concept without also creating pathing issues. If he'd been able to put a localised eclipse across the middle we'd all be happy and you'd have a good map. Realism is unrelated to any question because gameplay always trumps it in any debate.
It all depends on if the mapmakers can get it to work. Early bw mapmakers had no clue (blade storm excluded) and it took a while for people to work out what made a good map. I expect the same in SC2. Basically, we have no idea what a good SC2 map will look like so the idea that we can rule stuff out is silly. We should give mapmakers as many options as we can and just trial and improvement it.
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I think it might be awkward for a very timing-based game to have a day/night cycle. I think it might be too hard to forsee what time of day it will be when a certain timing comes up, a timing when you might want to be making your big push, and if it became night unexpectedly the timing might be lost, due to increased threat of ambushes. You can't really anticipate while designing your build order and game plan pre-match, what time of day it will be when you reach a certain supply or anything, because of all the various adaptations you have to make throughout the game. That means you'd have to be able to sense this independent linear time cycle and how it will overlap your non-linear adaptive push timing, and further adapt your timing with that in mind. Worse, if some more unexpected developements suddenly changed your ideal push timing to night time after you'd already invested alot towards that timing, it could be really hard to adapt.
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My opinion on anything related to melee map creation is that melee map creators are what keep SC1 alive and balanced. If there were no map editor and the only maps we had available were those in blizzard's ladder folder, then most of us would have quit a long time ago and the rest would be pissed with MU imbalance. It is those geniuses at Kespa who keep constantly making new maps and improving old ones who keep this game interesting.
That said I think the most freedom we have when making melee maps the better. If we can add day/night cycle to the list of tools a map maker can use to change the flavor or MU balance of his map, then I'm all for it.
Not only you could add day/night control only as visual flavor. But you could also add it as a mechanism that would affect game balance on that map, favor some units and not others.
For example. If night reduces the sight range of siege tanks but not the sight range of protoss stalkers. Then PvT mid-game would be easier at night (T may get something to make up for it later). So you have this map with a 20% win rate PvT because for whatever reason T gets too much advantage mid-game. Then the map maker could set the map to change to night on mid-game to try to balance it.
So what I think they should do is try to first of all understand what units are gonna be commonly used on each MU. Then put one advantage and one downside for those units, for each time state (day/night), for each game state (early, mid, late game).
Example: if zvt early game = ling/bane vs rine/marauder then make lings banelings faster at night while marauders slow better at day. So map makers could shift early game balance to either race by changing day/night cycle timing.
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Unfortunately day/night would bring up race balance problems if implemented with effects on gameplay.
Terrans would be hit way more than Zerg, many of their units can shoot further than they can see in SC - Zerg are mostly melee/short range. What if for example night comes in while the ghost channels a nuke?
In WC3 that wasn´t so bad since each side had melee units, and I don´t have to argue for Night Elves do I?
Timed global events (like night etc...) are only fair if they affect each side equally or if the "advantage" is carefully balanced in, in WC3 only the Night elves have to really pay attention to day/night.
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As long as the effects of day/night are not race specific (no night-elf nighttime advantage bullshit) I'm find with it.
I especially find the thought of night falling and the zerg hoarde charging a terran emplacement in the dark to be frighting and awesome.
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Just with the vision reduction at night, Z is at an advantage against T. Tanks will have even reduced range and require some sort of detection to sight. It will be trickier to scout flanks - say with a SCV.
I'm not sure what sort of benefit you could give T in reverse during day...
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Canada7170 Posts
I see nothing wrong with night/day, as long as the effects are the same for each race. As long as units don't get tired or some bullshit.
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On April 30 2008 11:28 FrozenArbiter wrote:Before we begin - yes this is an almost year old thread, yes it's an intentional bump. I'd like to see some more discussion on night/day cycles as it's something I've been thinking about lately. I haven't heard anything on blizzard's stance on this, but I feel the reception here has been overly critical. What exactly is wrong with it? I'm going to almost assume it will be in the map editor (it is in WC3's editor right?), but what's interesting is wether it should be a part of ladder maps or not. Eventually, if it's in the map editor, it will probably make its way into competitive play but that will take a while. I'm not sure why people have reacted so negatively to it, seeing as how it doesnt have to be in every map and doesn't even have to be available from every tileset. The jungle, desert and snow tilesets it would work fine on for instance. So, do I want it all the time? Nah. Do I want it at all? Maybe ? The effect doesn't have to be drastical, ie the loss of vision doesn't have to be 50% it could be 20 or 25% or what have you. Further, the duration doesn't have to be the same either, map specific day/night cycles could lead to interesting situations, just as long as the effect is not big enough to lead to one side stalling during one part of the cycle. Ok this might be a little rambly but I wanted to bring the topic to up before I went to bed.
Yes.
I agree with FrozenArbiter.
If we are using "Dark Swarm" and "Disruption webs" on professional maps, then I don't see why day/night cycle could be implemented on certain maps.
It would be similar to the "Demon Forest" map which had a great idea but
1) was too buggy
2) slightly too "extreme"
I approve the idea : )
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If it's bad, no serious league will use it. I don't see the problem.
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I like it as something that is purely esthetic. It makes sense in WC3 to have units lose vision during the night, but the high-tech armies and mutated-beyond-recognition creatures of SC doesn't really have any reason to why they would see less during the night. Besides that, I'd probably be annoyed with constantly floating buildings around to see a bit further.
But if there's no impact on gameplay from it, I think it's nice. Seeing marines with small shoulderlamps and glowing protoss units during the night would be nice eyecandy.
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On April 30 2008 13:31 zobz wrote:
I think it might be awkward for a very timing-based game to have a day/night cycle. I think it might be too hard to forsee what time of day it will be when a certain timing comes up, a timing when you might want to be making your big push, and if it became night unexpectedly the timing might be lost, due to increased threat of ambushes. You can't really anticipate while designing your build order and game plan pre-match, what time of day it will be when you reach a certain supply or anything, because of all the various adaptations you have to make throughout the game. That means you'd have to be able to sense this independent linear time cycle and how it will overlap your non-linear adaptive push timing, and further adapt your timing with that in mind. Worse, if some more unexpected developements suddenly changed your ideal push timing to night time after you'd already invested alot towards that timing, it could be really hard to adapt.
Everything you said makes me want day/night cycles even more. How is making the game more difficult a bad thing?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 30 2008 13:31 zobz wrote:
I think it might be awkward for a very timing-based game to have a day/night cycle. I think it might be too hard to forsee what time of day it will be when a certain timing comes up, a timing when you might want to be making your big push, and if it became night unexpectedly the timing might be lost, due to increased threat of ambushes. You can't really anticipate while designing your build order and game plan pre-match, what time of day it will be when you reach a certain supply or anything, because of all the various adaptations you have to make throughout the game. That means you'd have to be able to sense this independent linear time cycle and how it will overlap your non-linear adaptive push timing, and further adapt your timing with that in mind. Worse, if some more unexpected developements suddenly changed your ideal push timing to night time after you'd already invested alot towards that timing, it could be really hard to adapt.
I actually like these implications, it would add some cool situations where you can stall someone until dark etc.
Btw I think I forgot to add, but I of course think the option to set how long a day/night is and set it to eternal night/day, should be in.
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On April 30 2008 19:53 Doctorasul wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2008 13:31 zobz wrote:
I think it might be awkward for a very timing-based game to have a day/night cycle. I think it might be too hard to forsee what time of day it will be when a certain timing comes up, a timing when you might want to be making your big push, and if it became night unexpectedly the timing might be lost, due to increased threat of ambushes. You can't really anticipate while designing your build order and game plan pre-match, what time of day it will be when you reach a certain supply or anything, because of all the various adaptations you have to make throughout the game. That means you'd have to be able to sense this independent linear time cycle and how it will overlap your non-linear adaptive push timing, and further adapt your timing with that in mind. Worse, if some more unexpected developements suddenly changed your ideal push timing to night time after you'd already invested alot towards that timing, it could be really hard to adapt. Everything you said makes me want day/night cycles even more. How is making the game more difficult a bad thing? Well actually I remember reading an interview with one of the blizzard devs where he said that in his opinion games like Guild Wars didn't succeed because they were way too complicated (every class had over 200 unique spells to choose from), so people would take too long trying to learn the basics and would lose interest before they got any good with the game. Which was why Blizzard was trying to keep the number of units limited, the number special abilities limited etc. SC1 has very simple mechanics and it's a great game, you don't need excessive complexity. So if we can keep the game as clean and simple as possible it will be probably better.
While I think day/night could bring some interesting new tools to map makers to balance different MUs on their maps. We must also try not to make it too complicated.
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I wouldnt mind it as a graphical element, as long as its not too distracting, but I dont want it to affect anything as far as abilities or upgrades. It should be eye candy only if it happens
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yeah, it should be purely aesthetics o__O
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I don't really like this idea at all. It doesn't add anything to the game as a cosmetic option - nobody's going to care if it's day or night when they're playing a melee game or even an UMS game, because nobody will notice it. It would sure mix it up as a non-cosmetic option, but that's a terrible idea too. Suddenly your army is less effective because it's night-time? Yeah, no. That sounds horribly imbalanced.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Uhm it's not imbalanced if it happens to everyone/you balance the game around it..?
Yes, it would greatly enhance UMS games, I'm pretty sure it will be in the map editor at the very least. The question is more if we should have it on ladder maps. Eventually, if it's in the map editor, OGN or some other league will make a map with it as a feature but if it's a good feature there's no reason to not have it before that happens.
Bleh.
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That makes gameplay way too random, which is wrong. Like someone above already mentioned it would cause the game to become imbalanced, as certain races would have an advantage over others during nighttime and none of the players in a game have any influence on the cycle.
The best way is to have it in the map editor and make it possible for map makers to choose how nighttime affects gameplay. It shouldn't be used in any ladder maps though.
I'm all for new mechanics, but putting tons of new stuff in the game just for the sake of having a lot of them is wrong. Starcraft is very easy to learn & understand, but it's pretty much impossible to master - and it should stay that way; not "impossbily complicated, impossible to master" 
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It wouldn't be random if the day/night duration is predetermined and known by the players.
it would cause the game to become imbalanced, as certain races would have an advantage over others during nighttime and none of the players in a game have any influence on the cycle.
The same can be said of cliffs, narrow pathways, islands or any other map feature - some races fare better than others with these features. Players adapt, they time their builds to correspond to them and the game is more dynamic. It's called asymmetry, not imbalance, and is one of the best things about Starcraft.
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On May 04 2008 23:02 True_Spike wrote:I'm all for new mechanics, but putting tons of new stuff in the game just for the sake of having a lot of them is wrong. Starcraft is very easy to learn & understand, but it's pretty much impossible to master - and it should stay that way; not "impossbily complicated, impossible to master" While I think that adding more balance control to map makers is good. I have to agree with True_Spike here. Day/night could just add unnecessary complexity. It's indeed the "easy to learn, impossible to master" that makes sc so popular. And, while new balancing elements are good, they don't need to add more complexity.
The game is in-depth enough. We don't need newcomers watching a VOD and asking
"WTH did the zerglings stop attacking and ran away from nothing???"
"cuz they daylight is coming and it's gonna burn them"
lol the game needs to be intuitive ^^
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Sweden33719 Posts
Most people know how day and night works.
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Lesseee, day and night cycles for melee maps where cycles (whether it'll cycle or be constant) can be set by the mapmaker. I guess, I'm fine with or without this.
If implemented, I'm a little uncomfortable with the balance changes because of a change in the cycle but if blizzard can get the balance right then I'm all for it... but this may be quite impossible. However, if they want dynamic stuffs because of the cycle, I would suggest they do it to the neutrals/npc/hostiles.
For example, some trees to come alive at night, sandworms come out during the day, shopkeepers to become hostile at night, certain animals/creeps/npc appear or disappear or at certain locations certain times of day, solar power generators to some weapon/scanner/machine/teleporter.... et cetera.
Of course, to the effect it doesn't imbalance the game.
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Sweden33719 Posts
The last bit would be either purely aesthetical/in UMSes right?
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I would really dislike having to reset my gamma setting for every map.
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On April 30 2008 18:31 sushiman wrote:I like it as something that is purely esthetic. It makes sense in WC3 to have units lose vision during the night, but the high-tech armies and mutated-beyond-recognition creatures of SC doesn't really have any reason to why they would see less during the night. Besides that, I'd probably be annoyed with constantly floating buildings around to see a bit further. But if there's no impact on gameplay from it, I think it's nice. Seeing marines with small shoulderlamps and glowing protoss units during the night would be nice eyecandy.
I have to agree here. I'd like to see TvZ on a snow terrain map at night. Got the floodlights and everything, but if night isn't too distracting, I would like to see it :D
Just like that thread a while ago about the track marks on the ground (footprints, etc), it would be just a nice aesthetic feature for SC2
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I wonder if SC2 will have shallow water passage like warcraft 3. Would be nice for UMS deisgns or maybe even melee.
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EPT
