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DropBear
Australia4279 Posts
On July 18 2020 00:44 Scarlett` wrote: Please don't bet on games (: also mistakes happen like this all the time Fuzer; especially in small online cups Heard it from the pro. No betting means no match fixing, or suggestion of match fixing from people who have lost bets either. | ||
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AlaStOrSC
Spain28 Posts
On July 17 2020 23:11 Fuzer wrote: I actually just watched the VODS and to be honest, Zest caliber player shouldn't make that many mistakes, here are couple clips I just made and I explain whats wrong with them: 1st: He has observer and sees 2 medivacs, there are no other things on the map that needs attention. Let me be clear, if you see that happening you don't do anything else than make sure that you kill that medivac, it should be very easy and normal task to do. BUT WHAT Happens is that Zest blinks (shows he sees them), attacks moves the stalkers, DOES SOMETHING else(unselecteed) and surprisingly no vacs get destroyed and on top of that he takes bad fight behind that. I ended that clip there because I don't think this next one after that is that obvious, but I mention it anyways: The drop that comes to his 3rd after is not scouted, so I can't blame him that he didn't left any units there, but he sees the mines being burrowed and chooses to recall weakened stalker army on top of that nexus... The mines do their job. 2nd: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/680307115?t=1h23m11s This is too long me to clip it, but it starts there, he scouts reactor factory and sees 2 hellions, he sees NO STARPORT (which SHOULD be next to factory / barracks.) I mean there are 2 ways the attack comes, straight runby to natural OR with drop. Well he makes a wall to natural, which is correct play, but SOMEHOW doesn't want to build pylons to the edge of the base, so he would see the drop coming(which was pretty obvious at this point)... I MEAN LOOK AT THIS MINIMAP https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/451771912570535952/733677011670794300/unknown.png . On top of that he builds ?sentry? AND gets supply blocked so he can't warpin from the 2nd warpgate. Outcome is clear, he loses 16 probes for amateur mistake. 3rd: scouts with hallusination phoenix that there is medivac, also he knows there is more likely more medivacs because the other observer haven't seem them going any other way, so its very likely there is more (watch the VOD how the vacs came to this position, clip is only 60s), what Zest does: "Well I just leave now, welcome to my base", "Oh he came with 4 full of units. I guess I attack there with my 5 stalkers, colossus and sentry"... Someone insert a surprised pikachu face here... After that Zest attacks while floating money and without warpprism, which obviously doesn't go too well... 4th: This is kinda 2 minor things but they just caught on my eye... Even on 6000 MMR Protoss players won't make these kinds of mistakes, even they know how important units colossies are: He sees vikings chasing he even attacks them with Stalkers but then he just stopped caring, Stalkers went to "wrong way"... Also that Sacrifacing DT:s on that point to kill couple SCV:s are never worth it, and player of his caliber knows it. I mean he saw that PF aint going to die, he blinked them and killed 6 SCV for 3 DTs when the 2nd option wouldve been just back off for now and come back later, which would ALWAYS been the correct choice. Also if someone says that he moved Stalkers back because he was afraid the bio, he already sees BIO is far away and secondly he knows BIO can't chase because he has 2nd disruptor shot ready, so getting 3-4 vikings and saving colossus for max 1-2 stalkers IF Vikings continue the chase is always FAR better deal. I watched the VODs closely and I have to say there are way more mistakes than these I clipped... There are LOT of mistakes, LOT. I mean I'm MMR is 5.8k on EU and the Protoss players I face there have better decision making and micro than Zest had on these games and Zest is WORLD CLASS player. So if Pinnacle had way more activity on this series than there normally is I think my opinion is clear. BUT correct me I'm wrong, it ain't confirmed that there were way more activity by Pinnacle? Edit. Fucking Luolis posted my clips beforehand 8D I'm in shock that people like you or others are really surprised about that "mistakes" for me that mistakes are nothing compared to what zest has been doing these last years, i'd never say that Zest matchfixed here because of his gameplay... these are normal games for zest, there are TONS of games where he really make things suspiccious, not shit like this where we need to supose he is really good so he should see the medivac or focus the medivac etc... i really ask you guys to keep watching his series on random tournaments, you'll be surprised about things like what i've posted, not making dt's when he is rushing them and seeing the other has no detection, stay 2 minutes supply block with 3 K minerals doing literally nothing, scout banshee cloack and do nothing, scout a 2 base terran allin from a good terran (inno,cure etC) and go for 5 bases 80 probes... these examples are the real examples where you can start to think that what he does is on purpose. | ||
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RKC
2847 Posts
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
money can tempt a lot of people, and there really is no telling who will make irrational choices in the moment. never forget that even players like Life were taken advantage of, and ruined their own career, so it's not outlandish to wonder about current pro players either. that said, always be courteous when examining clips and games.... from the clips i saw in this game... i couldnt say anything looks 'definitely throwish' as compared to those chinese games we had last year (i think it was?). until anything like that comes out, please treat the players well. ah and edit: i posted the chat log from discord on my twitter on that day, so any1 could see all the things we talked about | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On July 19 2020 23:14 -Kyo- wrote: just for some reference, there are definitely still upper-level match fixers/scammers out there trying to get korean players/foreigners who can beat korean players in tournaments to help matchfix/rig games for betting sites. while i wont say too much, on may 15th i was contacted by a person via discord. he attempted to convince me to play in kr tournaments with a special, still undetectable mh and try to pull a game/series of people for betting sites. i tried to get information off of him, but after talking for like an hr he eventually just blocked me. obviously, he didn't contact just me, and there are other people he has probably contacted, but it's definitely something that is still happening behind the scenes. money can tempt a lot of people, and there really is no telling who will make irrational choices in the moment. never forget that even players like Life were taken advantage of, and ruined their own career, so it's not outlandish to wonder about current pro players either. that said, always be courteous when examining clips and games.... from the clips i saw in this game... i couldnt say anything looks 'definitely throwish' as compared to those chinese games we had last year (i think it was?). until anything like that comes out, please treat the players well. ah and edit: i posted the chat log from discord on my twitter on that day, so any1 could see all the things we talked about Is there any reason you "won't say too much" if you're recounting your own experience? | ||
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Fuzer
Finland266 Posts
On July 19 2020 21:55 AlaStOrSC wrote: I'm in shock that people like you or others are really surprised about that "mistakes" for me that mistakes are nothing compared to what zest has been doing these last years, i'd never say that Zest matchfixed here because of his gameplay... these are normal games for zest, there are TONS of games where he really make things suspiccious, not shit like this where we need to supose he is really good so he should see the medivac or focus the medivac etc... i really ask you guys to keep watching his series on random tournaments, you'll be surprised about things like what i've posted, not making dt's when he is rushing them and seeing the other has no detection, stay 2 minutes supply block with 3 K minerals doing literally nothing, scout banshee cloack and do nothing, scout a 2 base terran allin from a good terran (inno,cure etC) and go for 5 bases 80 probes... these examples are the real examples where you can start to think that what he does is on purpose. Well, this is the first time someone tells me about series Pinnacle voided and brought it to my attention. | ||
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AlaStOrSC
Spain28 Posts
On July 20 2020 00:32 Fuzer wrote: Well, this is the first time someone tells me about series Pinnacle voided and brought it to my attention. That happened to me many times, at pinnacle, at bet365, at egb, and i know for someone who is not used to bet, it could sound weird, but bookies can do whatever they want... sad but true, and practice like this for bookies are standard, so its not a "proof" of matchfixing, i think for that is better to make a tracking, check how the odds dropps, you dont need to see a super huge drop to see a matchfix, they are not trying to get rich in 1 match, wardi's, esl's, tons of tournaments where they can just make 1-2 small fixes per week, and get like 4-5K per month with 0% chances of being caught... Imagine, Zest, losing to Inno, its not something weird, so if Zest is playing an Alpha pro X tournament with 50$ prizepool he can just say ok, i lose and get 500-1000 (just an example) But as every scammer/thief etc, they start to make mistakes, they get greedy, they think they can do whatever they want, and then you see series like 2-3 monhts ago at alpha pro series, Zest-Inno where zest if i dont remember wrong, lost 3 times going 5 bases vs 2 bases, not only 4 nexus, wich is already greedy, but 5 knowing inno was allining or semi-allining in every single game... | ||
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Russano
United States425 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10635 Posts
On July 20 2020 00:18 Zealously wrote: Is there any reason you "won't say too much" if you're recounting your own experience? Right lol | ||
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Russano
United States425 Posts
1st Clip - This was probably his most egregious and preventable mistake. Stalkers are clearly A-Moved rather than medivac targetted, which definitely IS a mistake, but without his first person point of view it's harder to tell exactly what was going on. It could have been as simple of an error as rightclicking just slightly off the medivac rather than on it, resulting in an A-move over target. His follow up as he realizes he fucked the defense is to F-2 everything over to defend. Easy to tell, cuz his warp prism moving across the map turns around, and the 3rd base army moves. The attack on his 3rd is pretty brutal at that point. It comes via medivac boost so it happens very quickly, and it also mostly threads his outward scouting. His defense is to warp in a round of stalkers at the 3rd, which simply isn't enough so he recalls to help with the defense. I doubt he had enough screen time to both notice mines, AND register how that would alter his defense, particularly as he was already scrambling to defend. You'll also notice that they burrow in between the warp in and the recall, so his screen was pulled elsewhere for that recall on top of it. This isn't even evidence of a bad defense, much less an intentional one. The only actual mistake was that A-move. Ping alone would have been enough to explain it (although I don't know what kind of ping/servers they were working with here.) Either way, it's hardly evidence of matchfixing. Also souL was pretty ballsy for zooming in with what should have been a half dead drop of 1 medivac into 6 stalkers. The 2nd video/nonclip is a complete nothing. He scouts hellions/marine with the factory/rax. There could be a proxy starport, there could also just be a starport in base. You can do the same exact build that souL did without the proxy. His defense of it was perfectly fine. You mention that he doesn't have scouting in his base. He made a minor mistake in building his pylon behind his 3rd - which WAS a scouting pylon, it was just scouting a natural drop which people do sometimes to be tricky. You'll also notice that his probe went and built a pylon to scout his base, right before the drop was happening. If it wasn't proxy'd literally 2 inches away, or was done 2 seconds earlier, it WOULD HAVE been scouted exactly as you wanted. He sort of got supply blocked. I think the 46 pylon is probably the most common supply block that protosses derp into, and happens as a mistake pretty frequently. He wasn't even classic supply blocked - where you go to make something and realize you are 46/46 and have to build a pylon. He started a pylon well before a full block and then warped in and then an attack hit 5-10 seconds later. Warping a sentry is totally fine. It was warped in well before the attack, and even if it was defensively done specifically to aid in the defense, it STILL would have been fine because you can use FF to limit hellion mobility in the same vein as zergs using evo chambers in minderal lines. He even uses that FF to separate and kill what looks like 2 hellions (although one manages to barely slip through a crack. Force Fields are petty unforgiving that way, and almost universally protoss pros are shit at using FF. Half the time you see a slightly off FF like Zest's and almost rarely do you see FF's like partings from the last GSL. Yeah, all in all a big nothing. 3rd game - if you look at the game pre-clip, Zest had observers below his base, so he sees a couple medivacs approach and kill his observers. He positions his army to defend the drop. SouL then proceeds so sit there for a solid minute+. Zest THEN makes his phoenix to check for the drop and go scout. He sends it out to check, but it only skirts the edge of vision for the drop. It WAS close enough that if you were paying attention you could tell, but you will notice that right as the hallucination goes out, souL runs away with his medivac behind the other base, and Zest is microing to kill that drop. How many times have you watched a game where something flies by and people miss what they "could have" seen, simply because they weren't paying direct attention and didn't catch the little blip that was there for half a second? Answer: All the damn time. So now Zest probably thinks the drop is gone, and even if it wasn't, based on his information the drop should be 3 medivacs. You'll notice that souL adds medivacs to that group as time goes by, something Zest is not aware of. 6 stalkers + 1 sentry + 1 collosus should be plenty to defend 3 medivacs provided that they are already in position. So now Zest either thinks the drop is totally gone, because he didn't see it OR he makes the most classic SC2 mistake in the world and F2s his army moving stuff that was in position out of position. The very delayed drop comes in now that he's out of position. Creighton incorrectly makes the claim that "Zest isn't responding at all to the drop" - but you should notice a few things. 1) Zest did a round of stalkers literally right before the drop zoomed in - meaning he had no warp ins he could do to defend. 2) His army is split into 2 groups, one is pretty out of position to defend a drop, the second VERY out of position to defend the main drop. 3) Zest moves the close one to defend, and warps to support it as soon as the CD is up, and his far group, defends the drops on the left side of the map. He is very much responding. Zest did make a fairly major mistake in moving his army, but it was perfectly understandable given the time elapsed and the fact that he may have seen nothing on his rescout. Working with incorrect information/assumptions will often result in major blunders much more frequently than NO information. 4th clip - Alot going on on this one. Where you have simultaneously a HUGE potential engagement on the leftside, and DT harass going on at the terran base. So attention is going to have to be managed to both (or abandoned on one front or the other at times.) So the micro needed is pretty intensive. So looking at the left fight. The masses of armies start to clash, vikings are positioned pretty far forward, and the protoss starts moving backwards, to take advantage of tha position and to utilize disruptors as he runs away. Zest blinks his stalkers off to the left so that the AI focuses on the vikings and not on the bio. Zest has a clunkiness problem here though - the army is on one big hotkey. The bio is currently disengaged so the Collossi are doing nothing, but the vikings give chase. So Zest moves his army backwards, while simultaneously also firing off a disruptor shot but since he's on 1 hotkey, Zest immediately realizes he's moved his stalkers, so switches it to an attack command. You can see the entire army immediately take kind of a half stutter step towards the terran as he does this. Now the situation is actually pretty good for him. souls vikings start dropping heavily, so he turns them around to rejoin them with the terran army. As soon as the AI switches off the vikings Zest immediately starts running away with his stalkers (a generally correct decision, actually.) Again - Zests problem of all units on one hotkey bites him again. When he retreats with his stalkers, he's still using this same group, so the retreated collosus (and the rest of his army retreatihng north) turn around for a little bit, its only for a second but its enough for the vikings to start shooting again and they take out the remaining collosus. One army hotkey groups are not throws, they are mistakes of poor general unit control and are "mistakes" that many many pros do on a regular basis. Don't attribute a level of perfection to 5k players that simply doesn't exist even in 6k+ players. Then we look at the DT action down at the Terran base. Zest has 8? DTs go in for a base kill. Now the thing with blink DTs is you want to just blink on to the base and right click it down and have it die very quickly, ideally before the terran ev en really responds. Creighton incorrectly says that he wants to kill missle turrets and force out scans for some reason. (One of the two turrets was built right before the attack, so Zest isn't even sure what's there.)Ideally what Zest wants is for the DTs to attack when the fight is happening to try and force this kill window open. Turrets don't even factor into it. You don't kill a missle turret, run around a planetary, kill another turret, then go for the CC, that's not what you are trying to do here, that gives the terran ample time to respond. Since I'm operating only off the twitch video, and not via replay its hard to see exactly what's happening, but from the looks of it when Zest blinks onto the CC because there ius both a turret and sensor tower flush against the CC, the 8 DTs don't get immediate surface area from the blink. 2-3 have to kind of run around the building to attack. Soul sees the DTs incoming, and he's a good player, so he responds to it immediately, he's repairing the CC before the DTs can even get full surface area - which means the CC simply doesn't die. Zest is busying deal with his clunky control groups, he checks back in on the DT attack but by then its too late. He's down to like 4 dts, the CC is totally fine. Ideally he'd retreat from the DTs but in the chaos he attacks SCVs and trades (poorly). I don't know if you've seen pro protoss DT play recently but they've been throwing away DTs like nobodies business in poor trades for quite a while now. It's definitely not good play, but protoss players are doing it constantly atm, this is not remotely noteworthy. As an extra thought: People fuck up all the time, even when they "shouldn't." I don't know how many times I've watched a Harstem stream and he'll say something like "All I need to do is X and not Y and I will win easily", then he'll proceed to do Y, lose, and go "Why the fuck did I just do Y?" Answer: Starcraft is hard and people fuck it up constantly. TLDR: Your analysis is off, your perception of how well people play on a regular basis is WAY OFF, and using analysis of pro play in this way as evidence of match fixing is a total joke. | ||
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
On July 20 2020 00:18 Zealously wrote: Is there any reason you "won't say too much" if you're recounting your own experience? yes, there is. it has to do with websites and links to things which may get me banned if i randomly posted too much information about them here. i am always careful with posting about such things. as i mentioned in the post, if ppl really care they could check the chat log i posted on the day, but chances are, no1 cares about more info than what i posted... so...  | ||
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geokilla
Canada8216 Posts
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elluel
62 Posts
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geokilla
Canada8216 Posts
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geokilla
Canada8216 Posts
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geokilla
Canada8216 Posts
On July 28 2020 09:35 geokilla wrote: I can say with 99% certainty Pinnacle won't be offering betting lines in matches that involve Zest. They have Alpha X available for tomorrow and like GSL, no Zest related lines. Almost a month has passed and any SC2 games related to Zest are not coming up anymore. Safe to say Pinnacle has blacklisted Zest. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On August 24 2020 10:11 geokilla wrote: Almost a month has passed and any SC2 games related to Zest are not coming up anymore. Safe to say Pinnacle has blacklisted Zest. That is crazy, we can speculate as much as we want but the ones with perfect inforamtion about how suspicious Zest games have been in the past is chosing to blacklist him? Does that mean his games is so often rife with suspicious activity that its not worth the income that they get from "normal" games. The workload and energy going into looking at the suspicious lines makes it more worthwhile to just outright blacklist him? If nothing else this totally disproves the whole "Pinnacle is just voiding games for their own monetary gain" argument. Pinnacle literally has the option to keep the betting open but void it when its suspicous but instead they are choosing to stop earning any money on Zest games period. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8216 Posts
On August 24 2020 17:05 Shuffleblade wrote: That is crazy, we can speculate as much as we want but the ones with perfect information about how suspicious Zest games have been in the past is choosing to blacklist him? Does that mean his games is so often rife with suspicious activity that its not worth the income that they get from "normal" games. The workload and energy going into looking at the suspicious lines makes it more worthwhile to just outright blacklist him? If nothing else this totally disproves the whole "Pinnacle is just voiding games for their own monetary gain" argument. Pinnacle literally has the option to keep the betting open but void it when its suspicious but instead they are choosing to stop earning any money on Zest games period. It's very possible. For what it's worth, Pinnacle has the GSL lines out already and Zest vs Taeja lines aren't offered. Of course they don't state the reason why it's not offered. It just isn't. Also not all SC2 events are offered. A lot of times, AlphaX best of 9 showmatches aren't offered either. | ||
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justinpal
United States3810 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23322 Posts
On August 25 2020 09:49 justinpal wrote: I kind of wish Korea would have embraced gambling back in the day. If the profits were being pumped into tournaments and the players, they wouldn't be fixing matches, just playing great StarCraft. Gambling can ruin lives but for many it's way to win/lose beer money while watching a sport. Besides, gambling addicts are always going to find a way. Gambling money has legitimacy in the UK and active involvement of gambling companies in sponsorship both grew and expanded the snooker circuit, still were a fair few match fixing kind of scandals. The temptation will still be there, and in places where gambling is totally legalised it doesn’t necessitate shady underground folks making the approaches. There’s no perfect solutions to many things I guess. On a personal level I’d like to keep gambling (as an industry) as far away from eSports as possible, especially given the young demographic and how mechanics in many free to play games (and increasingly ones that aren’t even free) already functionally service as gambling. I’ve never gambled outside of going blind 2 rax on a 4 player map, but to say I’m not a huge fan of the industry is rather an understatement. It functionally exists to deprive people of money on average (ok obviously) and it’s not a coincidence that you’ll find most of your bookmaker shops over here in the poorer areas. If you do siphon off profits back into the circuit, bookmaker’s are going to want something in return potentially, likely some kind of visibility in broadcasts. Which for regular folk is something can shrug off, for those with gambling problems that can be really difficult for them. We saw it over here in the UK when smartphone ubiquity came in, and the need to physically go in and place bets was removed. Gambling industry went ham on sports advertising up to the peak where a good chunk of advertisements in a half time break for the football were gambling, gambling firms sponsored more and more teams, actual live odds for that specific game would appear in the break etc etc. Despite being made aware of a huge spike in gambling related financial problems across the populace it took quite some time for regulation to at least step in there. I’m fine with a site like Pinnacle because it’s kept at a certain distance where one can just consume Starcraft, indeed it’s mostly from this thread I’m particularly aware of it. People can still have their fun and show their Starcraft knowledge or lack thereof, but those who do struggle with gambling or would be hypothetically so inclined at least have some distance. Wow this ended up being a longer post than I’d initially intended. | ||
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