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On January 28 2020 19:28 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2020 10:34 tigon_ridge wrote:On January 28 2020 00:25 deacon.frost wrote:On January 27 2020 11:42 tigon_ridge wrote:
Yea, just look at the GSL player's wins, but ignore his terrible performances, like his absolutely getting trashed by Elazer, and ignore Serral's masterful consistent 3-1's steamrolling through every Korean terran and protoss; and ignore Serral's 3-1 v Dark and 2-0 v Rogue in the same year. This article has pro-gsl players bias written from beginning to end. Imagine an article exclaiming "player of the year" opinion that doesn't even remark upon everything salient that happened in that year to the candidates—Oh, it's Wax, I don't have to imagine. How many Code S titles in 2k19 go to Serral? 0 How many World Champion titles in 2k19 go to Serral? 0 Well, the two most important titles of the year were won by soO and Dark(IEM, Blizzcon), Dark added a Code S title, a ST title, 2 top4 finishers in Code S and 1 top4 finisher at IEM. I don't know what kind of metric you want to use to put Serral above all these titles. Especially when Blizzcon was one of the most cited victories which resulted not giving this to Maru at 2k18... ...You have no clue how much of a dice roll these tournament runs are with the crappy SE format designed to appeal to youths and less sophisticated people. It's the same reason why athletic tournaments use the same format, while more sophisticated people, chess players, steer clear from it like the sheer laugh that they know it is. It's more to entertain the stupid crowd than anything legitimate... Rather than be so patronizing as to believe you're the only one privy to some exclusive knowledge, what if you considered the possibility that most sports fans understand the random nature of common competitive formats, recognize it's a flawed way to determine a champion, but can still internally reconcile the contradiction for the sake of entertainment 
Most sports fans evidently don't. Have you ever been around them?? They're not exactly intellectually gifted people. Sophisticated people can still get as much if not more enjoyment from a smarter tournament format. Dennis organized the best tournament the entire year, even with 3 of the best players sitting out. So, no, I'm apparently not the only one privy to obvious facts. Large tournament organizers can't be bothered with this time-consuming complexity, because there isn't enough demand from the community.
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Northern Ireland26936 Posts
On January 29 2020 04:41 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2020 19:28 Waxangel wrote:On January 28 2020 10:34 tigon_ridge wrote:On January 28 2020 00:25 deacon.frost wrote:On January 27 2020 11:42 tigon_ridge wrote:
Yea, just look at the GSL player's wins, but ignore his terrible performances, like his absolutely getting trashed by Elazer, and ignore Serral's masterful consistent 3-1's steamrolling through every Korean terran and protoss; and ignore Serral's 3-1 v Dark and 2-0 v Rogue in the same year. This article has pro-gsl players bias written from beginning to end. Imagine an article exclaiming "player of the year" opinion that doesn't even remark upon everything salient that happened in that year to the candidates—Oh, it's Wax, I don't have to imagine. How many Code S titles in 2k19 go to Serral? 0 How many World Champion titles in 2k19 go to Serral? 0 Well, the two most important titles of the year were won by soO and Dark(IEM, Blizzcon), Dark added a Code S title, a ST title, 2 top4 finishers in Code S and 1 top4 finisher at IEM. I don't know what kind of metric you want to use to put Serral above all these titles. Especially when Blizzcon was one of the most cited victories which resulted not giving this to Maru at 2k18... ...You have no clue how much of a dice roll these tournament runs are with the crappy SE format designed to appeal to youths and less sophisticated people. It's the same reason why athletic tournaments use the same format, while more sophisticated people, chess players, steer clear from it like the sheer laugh that they know it is. It's more to entertain the stupid crowd than anything legitimate... Rather than be so patronizing as to believe you're the only one privy to some exclusive knowledge, what if you considered the possibility that most sports fans understand the random nature of common competitive formats, recognize it's a flawed way to determine a champion, but can still internally reconcile the contradiction for the sake of entertainment Most sports fans evidently don't. Have you ever been around them?? They're not exactly intellectually gifted people. Sophisticated people can still get as much if not more enjoyment from a smarter tournament format. Dennis organized the best tournament the entire year, even with 3 of the best players sitting out. So, no, I'm apparently not the only one privy to obvious facts. Large tournament organizers can't be bothered with this time-consuming complexity, because there isn't enough demand from the community.
Jeez take off the fedora already.
Anyway as far as I’m aware people love HSC because of the irreverent atmosphere and side content, not because it has their preferred bracket structure.
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On January 28 2020 21:45 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2020 19:28 Waxangel wrote:On January 28 2020 10:34 tigon_ridge wrote:On January 28 2020 00:25 deacon.frost wrote:On January 27 2020 11:42 tigon_ridge wrote:
Yea, just look at the GSL player's wins, but ignore his terrible performances, like his absolutely getting trashed by Elazer, and ignore Serral's masterful consistent 3-1's steamrolling through every Korean terran and protoss; and ignore Serral's 3-1 v Dark and 2-0 v Rogue in the same year. This article has pro-gsl players bias written from beginning to end. Imagine an article exclaiming "player of the year" opinion that doesn't even remark upon everything salient that happened in that year to the candidates—Oh, it's Wax, I don't have to imagine. How many Code S titles in 2k19 go to Serral? 0 How many World Champion titles in 2k19 go to Serral? 0 Well, the two most important titles of the year were won by soO and Dark(IEM, Blizzcon), Dark added a Code S title, a ST title, 2 top4 finishers in Code S and 1 top4 finisher at IEM. I don't know what kind of metric you want to use to put Serral above all these titles. Especially when Blizzcon was one of the most cited victories which resulted not giving this to Maru at 2k18... ...You have no clue how much of a dice roll these tournament runs are with the crappy SE format designed to appeal to youths and less sophisticated people. It's the same reason why athletic tournaments use the same format, while more sophisticated people, chess players, steer clear from it like the sheer laugh that they know it is. It's more to entertain the stupid crowd than anything legitimate... Rather than be so patronizing as to believe you're the only one privy to some exclusive knowledge, what if you considered the possibility that most sports fans understand the random nature of common competitive formats, recognize it's a flawed way to determine a champion, but can still internally reconcile the contradiction for the sake of entertainment Ah Wax no, what does almost every other sport and competitive activity know about factoring in mentality and the ability to perform under pressure in both creating stakes for spectators and separating the good players from the clutch one. It’s a shame EPL have guaranteed 3 years of the same tired old unsophisticated format, I was hoping that we wouldn’t have tournaments and would decide each years best players in a 5000 ladder game slugfest. Maybe 10000 if the players can manage it to eliminate pesky variance.
I'll take off the fedora as soon as you stop thinking you're clever with blatantly dumb sarcasm like this.
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As already mentioned I'm comfortable with Dark as POTY.
However it's nonsense to suggest Dark's year was vastly superior to Serrals, who was in 7 Premier tournament finals and won a team league as well. He has unprecedented consistency and longevity over 24 months to a degree unseen in starcraft 2 before, and has already moved into GOAT discussions.
Anyone still pushing the "foreigners don't mean anything" line is completely naive. GSL vs World proved for good this year that the two scenes are extremely comparable, and Serral/Reynor make 2 of the 3 best players in the world right now. Other foreigners have also demonstrated ongoing success against both foreign and Korean opponents, including Neeb, Special, Time, Elazer and more.
The Korean elitism is seeped in tradition but it is now 3 years since kespa closed its doors. The fact that Korea can't even win nation wars anymore is clear evidence of this.
It astounds me how some people still don't give Serral the credit he deserves, no-one has ever been in the top eschalon for 2 straight years before.
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I legit thought HeroMarine was going to get Foreign Terran, I think all these big gabe memes have ruined my brain 
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 29 2020 05:31 Dave4 wrote:
As already mentioned I'm comfortable with Dark as POTY.
However it's nonsense to suggest Dark's year was vastly superior to Serrals, who was in 7 Premier tournament finals and won a team league as well. He has unprecedented consistency and longevity over 24 months to a degree unseen in starcraft 2 before, and has already moved into GOAT discussions.
Anyone still pushing the "foreigners don't mean anything" line is completely naive. GSL vs World proved for good this year that the two scenes are extremely comparable, and Serral/Reynor make 2 of the 3 best players in the world right now. Other foreigners have also demonstrated ongoing success against both foreign and Korean opponents, including Neeb, Special, Time, Elazer and more.
The Korean elitism is seeped in tradition but it is now 3 years since kespa closed its doors. The fact that Korea can't even win nation wars anymore is clear evidence of this.
It astounds me how some people still don't give Serral the credit he deserves, no-one has ever been in the top eschalon for 2 straight years before.
IEM or Blizzcon (both 2019 for obv. reasons ) proved for good that these two scenes are not comparable at all. How many foreigners did we see in RO4/RO8 again?
On January 29 2020 04:20 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2020 00:56 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 00:34 UnLarva wrote:So, Serral was the second best of year 2019. Great! How incredibly hard it is to achieve. Like it would be shame to be the second. Congratz Dark! Maybe Serral was little bit more consistent overall, and statistically little bit better, but when weighting in wins in tournaments, level of competition and trophies, Dark deserves POTY. Maybe its close, but it is nevertheless clear. And yes, this comes from 100% pure breed Serral fanboi, but Its just petty not to applaud the player who deserve the praise, and what happened 2018 have nothing what-so-ever to do with POTY 2019. To foreseeable future its easy to predict that Serral isn't yet completely washed up. Maybe 2020 is better year for him. Lol.  soO was so fucking consistent with his 4 Code S finals in a row and almost nobody cared and everybody was talking about winners. Also Serral is hurt by WCS which is a weaker competition while Dark was very good in the Code S and ST2. Out of 8 big titles Serral was competing for 3, which means he has to win some of them to outperform heavily dominating Korean player. Edit> actually this is quite a nice comparison - soO vs Maru. when soO was winning everything except the finals, he was being aknowledged but victors were still more than his achievement. When Maru started his dominating streak and was winning, people were talking much more differently That mirrors your incredibly Korea-centric vision of Sc2, which is not shared by everyone and it is not objective truth, either(also, Serral won GSL vs the World that you include in your "big titles", so if Dark was crowned POTY the reason was not Serral not winning any of those). Being consistent by itself is not enough, you need to actually win titles on top of that and that's why soO wasn't taken into consideration back then: because he was not capable of winning anything. This doesn't mean that consistent players winning few titles(more than zero, ofc) could be preferred over other ones winning more but being incosistent.
I didn't say that Serral won none. Read it again. My posts are about the fact Dark won more and was more consistent in the most important title runs. In the end it's not our fault Serral missed 5 of those, is it? 
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On January 29 2020 17:05 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2020 05:31 Dave4 wrote:
As already mentioned I'm comfortable with Dark as POTY.
However it's nonsense to suggest Dark's year was vastly superior to Serrals, who was in 7 Premier tournament finals and won a team league as well. He has unprecedented consistency and longevity over 24 months to a degree unseen in starcraft 2 before, and has already moved into GOAT discussions.
Anyone still pushing the "foreigners don't mean anything" line is completely naive. GSL vs World proved for good this year that the two scenes are extremely comparable, and Serral/Reynor make 2 of the 3 best players in the world right now. Other foreigners have also demonstrated ongoing success against both foreign and Korean opponents, including Neeb, Special, Time, Elazer and more.
The Korean elitism is seeped in tradition but it is now 3 years since kespa closed its doors. The fact that Korea can't even win nation wars anymore is clear evidence of this.
It astounds me how some people still don't give Serral the credit he deserves, no-one has ever been in the top eschalon for 2 straight years before. IEM or Blizzcon (both 2019 for obv. reasons ) proved for good that these two scenes are not comparable at all. How many foreigners did we see in RO4/RO8 again? Show nested quote +On January 29 2020 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On January 29 2020 00:56 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 00:34 UnLarva wrote:So, Serral was the second best of year 2019. Great! How incredibly hard it is to achieve. Like it would be shame to be the second. Congratz Dark! Maybe Serral was little bit more consistent overall, and statistically little bit better, but when weighting in wins in tournaments, level of competition and trophies, Dark deserves POTY. Maybe its close, but it is nevertheless clear. And yes, this comes from 100% pure breed Serral fanboi, but Its just petty not to applaud the player who deserve the praise, and what happened 2018 have nothing what-so-ever to do with POTY 2019. To foreseeable future its easy to predict that Serral isn't yet completely washed up. Maybe 2020 is better year for him. Lol. soO was so fucking consistent with his 4 Code S finals in a row and almost nobody cared and everybody was talking about winners. Also Serral is hurt by WCS which is a weaker competition while Dark was very good in the Code S and ST2. Out of 8 big titles Serral was competing for 3, which means he has to win some of them to outperform heavily dominating Korean player. Edit> actually this is quite a nice comparison - soO vs Maru. when soO was winning everything except the finals, he was being aknowledged but victors were still more than his achievement. When Maru started his dominating streak and was winning, people were talking much more differently That mirrors your incredibly Korea-centric vision of Sc2, which is not shared by everyone and it is not objective truth, either(also, Serral won GSL vs the World that you include in your "big titles", so if Dark was crowned POTY the reason was not Serral not winning any of those). Being consistent by itself is not enough, you need to actually win titles on top of that and that's why soO wasn't taken into consideration back then: because he was not capable of winning anything. This doesn't mean that consistent players winning few titles(more than zero, ofc) could be preferred over other ones winning more but being incosistent. I didn't say that Serral won none. Read it again. My posts are about the fact Dark won more and was more consistent in the most important title runs. In the end it's not our fault Serral missed 5 of those, is it?
You're right, Dark won the most important tournaments 2019 (finals) and Serral 2018 so they have one year of being the undisputed best player each. I'm not sure money earnings is the best metric of "best player" but if that's what you want then sure.
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On January 29 2020 20:10 Noa Greenini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2020 17:05 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 05:31 Dave4 wrote:
As already mentioned I'm comfortable with Dark as POTY.
However it's nonsense to suggest Dark's year was vastly superior to Serrals, who was in 7 Premier tournament finals and won a team league as well. He has unprecedented consistency and longevity over 24 months to a degree unseen in starcraft 2 before, and has already moved into GOAT discussions.
Anyone still pushing the "foreigners don't mean anything" line is completely naive. GSL vs World proved for good this year that the two scenes are extremely comparable, and Serral/Reynor make 2 of the 3 best players in the world right now. Other foreigners have also demonstrated ongoing success against both foreign and Korean opponents, including Neeb, Special, Time, Elazer and more.
The Korean elitism is seeped in tradition but it is now 3 years since kespa closed its doors. The fact that Korea can't even win nation wars anymore is clear evidence of this.
It astounds me how some people still don't give Serral the credit he deserves, no-one has ever been in the top eschalon for 2 straight years before. IEM or Blizzcon (both 2019 for obv. reasons ) proved for good that these two scenes are not comparable at all. How many foreigners did we see in RO4/RO8 again? On January 29 2020 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On January 29 2020 00:56 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 00:34 UnLarva wrote:So, Serral was the second best of year 2019. Great! How incredibly hard it is to achieve. Like it would be shame to be the second. Congratz Dark! Maybe Serral was little bit more consistent overall, and statistically little bit better, but when weighting in wins in tournaments, level of competition and trophies, Dark deserves POTY. Maybe its close, but it is nevertheless clear. And yes, this comes from 100% pure breed Serral fanboi, but Its just petty not to applaud the player who deserve the praise, and what happened 2018 have nothing what-so-ever to do with POTY 2019. To foreseeable future its easy to predict that Serral isn't yet completely washed up. Maybe 2020 is better year for him. Lol. soO was so fucking consistent with his 4 Code S finals in a row and almost nobody cared and everybody was talking about winners. Also Serral is hurt by WCS which is a weaker competition while Dark was very good in the Code S and ST2. Out of 8 big titles Serral was competing for 3, which means he has to win some of them to outperform heavily dominating Korean player. Edit> actually this is quite a nice comparison - soO vs Maru. when soO was winning everything except the finals, he was being aknowledged but victors were still more than his achievement. When Maru started his dominating streak and was winning, people were talking much more differently That mirrors your incredibly Korea-centric vision of Sc2, which is not shared by everyone and it is not objective truth, either(also, Serral won GSL vs the World that you include in your "big titles", so if Dark was crowned POTY the reason was not Serral not winning any of those). Being consistent by itself is not enough, you need to actually win titles on top of that and that's why soO wasn't taken into consideration back then: because he was not capable of winning anything. This doesn't mean that consistent players winning few titles(more than zero, ofc) could be preferred over other ones winning more but being incosistent. I didn't say that Serral won none. Read it again. My posts are about the fact Dark won more and was more consistent in the most important title runs. In the end it's not our fault Serral missed 5 of those, is it? You're right, Dark won the most important tournaments 2019 (finals) and Serral 2018 so they have one year of being the undisputed best player each. I'm not sure money earnings is the best metric of "best player" but if that's what you want then sure.
Not money. Prestige!
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Take it a step further. Rogue would have won POTY 2017 by the standards of the 2018 list.
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On January 29 2020 05:31 Dave4 wrote:
The Korean elitism is seeped in tradition but it is now 3 years since kespa closed its doors. The fact that Korea can't even win nation wars anymore is clear evidence of this.
Did this guy really use NW to prove a point. You know korea lost that during kespa as well right?
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On January 29 2020 21:34 Fango wrote:
Take it a step further. Rogue would have won POTY 2017 by the standards of the 2018 list.
I insist, if someone wins BlizzCon he is not automatically Player of the Year.
That's how you justify Serral winning in 2018 but there's more to it(and it has been said countless times), you just can't see it because the GSLcentrism blinds you.
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Northern Ireland26936 Posts
It’s contentious enough every year, 2020 may be more difficult yet again for our writers.
Maybe not across scenes, which is always tricky anyway but with past achievements and prestige.
How does a Code S in the coming year compare to ones in previous eras? Will players step up to fill that Classic (and hero/Gumiho) shaped void? Maybe Reynor will try his hand, more likely than Serral anyhow.
We’re starting to look a bit thin in terms of depth, at least of championship tier players who are in form.
On the other hand best case scenario it could be a great year if some of the aforementioned happen, the game is well racially balanced and players like Inno and soO bring their A game.
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United States33624 Posts
On January 29 2020 22:56 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2020 21:34 Fango wrote:
Take it a step further. Rogue would have won POTY 2017 by the standards of the 2018 list. I insist, if someone wins BlizzCon he is not automatically Player of the Year. That's how you justify Serral winning in 2018 but there's more to it(and it has been said countless times), you just can't see it because the GSLcentrism blinds you.
Winning BlizzCon definitely has a 'golden snitch' from Harry Potter quality, although not quite to that extent. Players who are BlizzCon champion quality rarely fail miserably for the rest of the year (qualification system basically ensures that), but I could envision a scenario where a relatively fluky champion can't garner the selection over some other player.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 29 2020 20:10 Noa Greenini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2020 17:05 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 05:31 Dave4 wrote:
As already mentioned I'm comfortable with Dark as POTY.
However it's nonsense to suggest Dark's year was vastly superior to Serrals, who was in 7 Premier tournament finals and won a team league as well. He has unprecedented consistency and longevity over 24 months to a degree unseen in starcraft 2 before, and has already moved into GOAT discussions.
Anyone still pushing the "foreigners don't mean anything" line is completely naive. GSL vs World proved for good this year that the two scenes are extremely comparable, and Serral/Reynor make 2 of the 3 best players in the world right now. Other foreigners have also demonstrated ongoing success against both foreign and Korean opponents, including Neeb, Special, Time, Elazer and more.
The Korean elitism is seeped in tradition but it is now 3 years since kespa closed its doors. The fact that Korea can't even win nation wars anymore is clear evidence of this.
It astounds me how some people still don't give Serral the credit he deserves, no-one has ever been in the top eschalon for 2 straight years before. IEM or Blizzcon (both 2019 for obv. reasons ) proved for good that these two scenes are not comparable at all. How many foreigners did we see in RO4/RO8 again? On January 29 2020 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On January 29 2020 00:56 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 00:34 UnLarva wrote:So, Serral was the second best of year 2019. Great! How incredibly hard it is to achieve. Like it would be shame to be the second. Congratz Dark! Maybe Serral was little bit more consistent overall, and statistically little bit better, but when weighting in wins in tournaments, level of competition and trophies, Dark deserves POTY. Maybe its close, but it is nevertheless clear. And yes, this comes from 100% pure breed Serral fanboi, but Its just petty not to applaud the player who deserve the praise, and what happened 2018 have nothing what-so-ever to do with POTY 2019. To foreseeable future its easy to predict that Serral isn't yet completely washed up. Maybe 2020 is better year for him. Lol. soO was so fucking consistent with his 4 Code S finals in a row and almost nobody cared and everybody was talking about winners. Also Serral is hurt by WCS which is a weaker competition while Dark was very good in the Code S and ST2. Out of 8 big titles Serral was competing for 3, which means he has to win some of them to outperform heavily dominating Korean player. Edit> actually this is quite a nice comparison - soO vs Maru. when soO was winning everything except the finals, he was being aknowledged but victors were still more than his achievement. When Maru started his dominating streak and was winning, people were talking much more differently That mirrors your incredibly Korea-centric vision of Sc2, which is not shared by everyone and it is not objective truth, either(also, Serral won GSL vs the World that you include in your "big titles", so if Dark was crowned POTY the reason was not Serral not winning any of those). Being consistent by itself is not enough, you need to actually win titles on top of that and that's why soO wasn't taken into consideration back then: because he was not capable of winning anything. This doesn't mean that consistent players winning few titles(more than zero, ofc) could be preferred over other ones winning more but being incosistent. I didn't say that Serral won none. Read it again. My posts are about the fact Dark won more and was more consistent in the most important title runs. In the end it's not our fault Serral missed 5 of those, is it? You're right, Dark won the most important tournaments 2019 (finals) and Serral 2018 so they have one year of being the undisputed best player each. I'm not sure money earnings is the best metric of "best player" but if that's what you want then sure.
Not talking about money. WESG is rewarding what, 200k USD? It's not mentioned because it's 3 Koreans and foreigners.
IEM and Blizzcon are the only 2 world champion titles we have. IEM is open to everybody, multiple open qualifications, big prize pool, the best players there. Blizzcon is quite low on the quality(because champions from the first half of the year may get worse - e.g. soO) but it's still a respected WC title and the finish of the season.
The next 3 hardest titles are Code S titles. It's a tournament with the biggest pool of skill. Comparable we can talk about ST1 & 2 but considering there's lower money value we can talk about players more focusing on Code S than ST so I value them a little lower.
The lowest title of the top for me is GSL vs TW. There's voting, there are more foreigners than the ratio of Blizzcon/IEM play offs would suggest is optimal. But still it has pretty stacked skill pool.
That;s why I mentioned these tournaments. If you look with my optics winning a WC title and being good at Code S for the whole year makes you a clear champion. It would get harder to decide with 1 WC title and ST titles vs 1 WC title and Code S domination and just 1 title.
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Canada8990 Posts
On January 30 2020 20:43 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2020 22:56 Xain0n wrote:On January 29 2020 21:34 Fango wrote:
Take it a step further. Rogue would have won POTY 2017 by the standards of the 2018 list. I insist, if someone wins BlizzCon he is not automatically Player of the Year. That's how you justify Serral winning in 2018 but there's more to it(and it has been said countless times), you just can't see it because the GSLcentrism blinds you. Winning BlizzCon definitely has a 'golden snitch' from Harry Potter quality, although not quite to that extent. Players who are BlizzCon champion quality rarely fail miserably for the rest of the year (qualification system basically ensures that), but I could envision a scenario where a relatively fluky champion can't garner the selection over some other player.
That's a long way to say "Unless he's from JinAir"
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On January 31 2020 00:03 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2020 20:10 Noa Greenini wrote:On January 29 2020 17:05 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 05:31 Dave4 wrote:
As already mentioned I'm comfortable with Dark as POTY.
However it's nonsense to suggest Dark's year was vastly superior to Serrals, who was in 7 Premier tournament finals and won a team league as well. He has unprecedented consistency and longevity over 24 months to a degree unseen in starcraft 2 before, and has already moved into GOAT discussions.
Anyone still pushing the "foreigners don't mean anything" line is completely naive. GSL vs World proved for good this year that the two scenes are extremely comparable, and Serral/Reynor make 2 of the 3 best players in the world right now. Other foreigners have also demonstrated ongoing success against both foreign and Korean opponents, including Neeb, Special, Time, Elazer and more.
The Korean elitism is seeped in tradition but it is now 3 years since kespa closed its doors. The fact that Korea can't even win nation wars anymore is clear evidence of this.
It astounds me how some people still don't give Serral the credit he deserves, no-one has ever been in the top eschalon for 2 straight years before. IEM or Blizzcon (both 2019 for obv. reasons ) proved for good that these two scenes are not comparable at all. How many foreigners did we see in RO4/RO8 again? On January 29 2020 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On January 29 2020 00:56 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 00:34 UnLarva wrote:So, Serral was the second best of year 2019. Great! How incredibly hard it is to achieve. Like it would be shame to be the second. Congratz Dark! Maybe Serral was little bit more consistent overall, and statistically little bit better, but when weighting in wins in tournaments, level of competition and trophies, Dark deserves POTY. Maybe its close, but it is nevertheless clear. And yes, this comes from 100% pure breed Serral fanboi, but Its just petty not to applaud the player who deserve the praise, and what happened 2018 have nothing what-so-ever to do with POTY 2019. To foreseeable future its easy to predict that Serral isn't yet completely washed up. Maybe 2020 is better year for him. Lol. soO was so fucking consistent with his 4 Code S finals in a row and almost nobody cared and everybody was talking about winners. Also Serral is hurt by WCS which is a weaker competition while Dark was very good in the Code S and ST2. Out of 8 big titles Serral was competing for 3, which means he has to win some of them to outperform heavily dominating Korean player. Edit> actually this is quite a nice comparison - soO vs Maru. when soO was winning everything except the finals, he was being aknowledged but victors were still more than his achievement. When Maru started his dominating streak and was winning, people were talking much more differently That mirrors your incredibly Korea-centric vision of Sc2, which is not shared by everyone and it is not objective truth, either(also, Serral won GSL vs the World that you include in your "big titles", so if Dark was crowned POTY the reason was not Serral not winning any of those). Being consistent by itself is not enough, you need to actually win titles on top of that and that's why soO wasn't taken into consideration back then: because he was not capable of winning anything. This doesn't mean that consistent players winning few titles(more than zero, ofc) could be preferred over other ones winning more but being incosistent. I didn't say that Serral won none. Read it again. My posts are about the fact Dark won more and was more consistent in the most important title runs. In the end it's not our fault Serral missed 5 of those, is it? You're right, Dark won the most important tournaments 2019 (finals) and Serral 2018 so they have one year of being the undisputed best player each. I'm not sure money earnings is the best metric of "best player" but if that's what you want then sure. Not talking about money. WESG is rewarding what, 200k USD? It's not mentioned because it's 3 Koreans and foreigners. IEM and Blizzcon are the only 2 world champion titles we have. IEM is open to everybody, multiple open qualifications, big prize pool, the best players there. Blizzcon is quite low on the quality(because champions from the first half of the year may get worse - e.g. soO) but it's still a respected WC title and the finish of the season. The next 3 hardest titles are Code S titles. It's a tournament with the biggest pool of skill. Comparable we can talk about ST1 & 2 but considering there's lower money value we can talk about players more focusing on Code S than ST so I value them a little lower. The lowest title of the top for me is GSL vs TW. There's voting, there are more foreigners than the ratio of Blizzcon/IEM play offs would suggest is optimal. But still it has pretty stacked skill pool. That;s why I mentioned these tournaments. If you look with my optics winning a WC title and being good at Code S for the whole year makes you a clear champion. It would get harder to decide with 1 WC title and ST titles vs 1 WC title and Code S domination and just 1 title.
I'd argue that GSL vs World counts as a Code S title (at least in the last 2 years) and definitely more than a ST title but whatever
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On January 31 2020 17:09 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2020 00:03 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 20:10 Noa Greenini wrote:On January 29 2020 17:05 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 05:31 Dave4 wrote:
As already mentioned I'm comfortable with Dark as POTY.
However it's nonsense to suggest Dark's year was vastly superior to Serrals, who was in 7 Premier tournament finals and won a team league as well. He has unprecedented consistency and longevity over 24 months to a degree unseen in starcraft 2 before, and has already moved into GOAT discussions.
Anyone still pushing the "foreigners don't mean anything" line is completely naive. GSL vs World proved for good this year that the two scenes are extremely comparable, and Serral/Reynor make 2 of the 3 best players in the world right now. Other foreigners have also demonstrated ongoing success against both foreign and Korean opponents, including Neeb, Special, Time, Elazer and more.
The Korean elitism is seeped in tradition but it is now 3 years since kespa closed its doors. The fact that Korea can't even win nation wars anymore is clear evidence of this.
It astounds me how some people still don't give Serral the credit he deserves, no-one has ever been in the top eschalon for 2 straight years before. IEM or Blizzcon (both 2019 for obv. reasons ) proved for good that these two scenes are not comparable at all. How many foreigners did we see in RO4/RO8 again? On January 29 2020 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On January 29 2020 00:56 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 00:34 UnLarva wrote:So, Serral was the second best of year 2019. Great! How incredibly hard it is to achieve. Like it would be shame to be the second. Congratz Dark! Maybe Serral was little bit more consistent overall, and statistically little bit better, but when weighting in wins in tournaments, level of competition and trophies, Dark deserves POTY. Maybe its close, but it is nevertheless clear. And yes, this comes from 100% pure breed Serral fanboi, but Its just petty not to applaud the player who deserve the praise, and what happened 2018 have nothing what-so-ever to do with POTY 2019. To foreseeable future its easy to predict that Serral isn't yet completely washed up. Maybe 2020 is better year for him. Lol. soO was so fucking consistent with his 4 Code S finals in a row and almost nobody cared and everybody was talking about winners. Also Serral is hurt by WCS which is a weaker competition while Dark was very good in the Code S and ST2. Out of 8 big titles Serral was competing for 3, which means he has to win some of them to outperform heavily dominating Korean player. Edit> actually this is quite a nice comparison - soO vs Maru. when soO was winning everything except the finals, he was being aknowledged but victors were still more than his achievement. When Maru started his dominating streak and was winning, people were talking much more differently That mirrors your incredibly Korea-centric vision of Sc2, which is not shared by everyone and it is not objective truth, either(also, Serral won GSL vs the World that you include in your "big titles", so if Dark was crowned POTY the reason was not Serral not winning any of those). Being consistent by itself is not enough, you need to actually win titles on top of that and that's why soO wasn't taken into consideration back then: because he was not capable of winning anything. This doesn't mean that consistent players winning few titles(more than zero, ofc) could be preferred over other ones winning more but being incosistent. I didn't say that Serral won none. Read it again. My posts are about the fact Dark won more and was more consistent in the most important title runs. In the end it's not our fault Serral missed 5 of those, is it? You're right, Dark won the most important tournaments 2019 (finals) and Serral 2018 so they have one year of being the undisputed best player each. I'm not sure money earnings is the best metric of "best player" but if that's what you want then sure. Not talking about money. WESG is rewarding what, 200k USD? It's not mentioned because it's 3 Koreans and foreigners. IEM and Blizzcon are the only 2 world champion titles we have. IEM is open to everybody, multiple open qualifications, big prize pool, the best players there. Blizzcon is quite low on the quality(because champions from the first half of the year may get worse - e.g. soO) but it's still a respected WC title and the finish of the season. The next 3 hardest titles are Code S titles. It's a tournament with the biggest pool of skill. Comparable we can talk about ST1 & 2 but considering there's lower money value we can talk about players more focusing on Code S than ST so I value them a little lower. The lowest title of the top for me is GSL vs TW. There's voting, there are more foreigners than the ratio of Blizzcon/IEM play offs would suggest is optimal. But still it has pretty stacked skill pool. That;s why I mentioned these tournaments. If you look with my optics winning a WC title and being good at Code S for the whole year makes you a clear champion. It would get harder to decide with 1 WC title and ST titles vs 1 WC title and Code S domination and just 1 title. I'd argue that GSL vs World counts as a Code S title (at least in the last 2 years) and definitely more than a ST title but whatever
How?? GSL vs The world is fan voting and invitation system which doesn't reflect who is the best at the moment of the tournament, whereas an open qualifier ensures the hottest players of the moment wins.
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On January 31 2020 17:30 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2020 17:09 Harris1st wrote:On January 31 2020 00:03 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 20:10 Noa Greenini wrote:On January 29 2020 17:05 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 05:31 Dave4 wrote:
As already mentioned I'm comfortable with Dark as POTY.
However it's nonsense to suggest Dark's year was vastly superior to Serrals, who was in 7 Premier tournament finals and won a team league as well. He has unprecedented consistency and longevity over 24 months to a degree unseen in starcraft 2 before, and has already moved into GOAT discussions.
Anyone still pushing the "foreigners don't mean anything" line is completely naive. GSL vs World proved for good this year that the two scenes are extremely comparable, and Serral/Reynor make 2 of the 3 best players in the world right now. Other foreigners have also demonstrated ongoing success against both foreign and Korean opponents, including Neeb, Special, Time, Elazer and more.
The Korean elitism is seeped in tradition but it is now 3 years since kespa closed its doors. The fact that Korea can't even win nation wars anymore is clear evidence of this.
It astounds me how some people still don't give Serral the credit he deserves, no-one has ever been in the top eschalon for 2 straight years before. IEM or Blizzcon (both 2019 for obv. reasons ) proved for good that these two scenes are not comparable at all. How many foreigners did we see in RO4/RO8 again? On January 29 2020 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On January 29 2020 00:56 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 00:34 UnLarva wrote:So, Serral was the second best of year 2019. Great! How incredibly hard it is to achieve. Like it would be shame to be the second. Congratz Dark! Maybe Serral was little bit more consistent overall, and statistically little bit better, but when weighting in wins in tournaments, level of competition and trophies, Dark deserves POTY. Maybe its close, but it is nevertheless clear. And yes, this comes from 100% pure breed Serral fanboi, but Its just petty not to applaud the player who deserve the praise, and what happened 2018 have nothing what-so-ever to do with POTY 2019. To foreseeable future its easy to predict that Serral isn't yet completely washed up. Maybe 2020 is better year for him. Lol. soO was so fucking consistent with his 4 Code S finals in a row and almost nobody cared and everybody was talking about winners. Also Serral is hurt by WCS which is a weaker competition while Dark was very good in the Code S and ST2. Out of 8 big titles Serral was competing for 3, which means he has to win some of them to outperform heavily dominating Korean player. Edit> actually this is quite a nice comparison - soO vs Maru. when soO was winning everything except the finals, he was being aknowledged but victors were still more than his achievement. When Maru started his dominating streak and was winning, people were talking much more differently That mirrors your incredibly Korea-centric vision of Sc2, which is not shared by everyone and it is not objective truth, either(also, Serral won GSL vs the World that you include in your "big titles", so if Dark was crowned POTY the reason was not Serral not winning any of those). Being consistent by itself is not enough, you need to actually win titles on top of that and that's why soO wasn't taken into consideration back then: because he was not capable of winning anything. This doesn't mean that consistent players winning few titles(more than zero, ofc) could be preferred over other ones winning more but being incosistent. I didn't say that Serral won none. Read it again. My posts are about the fact Dark won more and was more consistent in the most important title runs. In the end it's not our fault Serral missed 5 of those, is it? You're right, Dark won the most important tournaments 2019 (finals) and Serral 2018 so they have one year of being the undisputed best player each. I'm not sure money earnings is the best metric of "best player" but if that's what you want then sure. Not talking about money. WESG is rewarding what, 200k USD? It's not mentioned because it's 3 Koreans and foreigners. IEM and Blizzcon are the only 2 world champion titles we have. IEM is open to everybody, multiple open qualifications, big prize pool, the best players there. Blizzcon is quite low on the quality(because champions from the first half of the year may get worse - e.g. soO) but it's still a respected WC title and the finish of the season. The next 3 hardest titles are Code S titles. It's a tournament with the biggest pool of skill. Comparable we can talk about ST1 & 2 but considering there's lower money value we can talk about players more focusing on Code S than ST so I value them a little lower. The lowest title of the top for me is GSL vs TW. There's voting, there are more foreigners than the ratio of Blizzcon/IEM play offs would suggest is optimal. But still it has pretty stacked skill pool. That;s why I mentioned these tournaments. If you look with my optics winning a WC title and being good at Code S for the whole year makes you a clear champion. It would get harder to decide with 1 WC title and ST titles vs 1 WC title and Code S domination and just 1 title. I'd argue that GSL vs World counts as a Code S title (at least in the last 2 years) and definitely more than a ST title but whatever How?? GSL vs The world is fan voting and invitation system which doesn't reflect who is the best at the moment of the tournament, whereas an open qualifier ensures the hottest players of the moment wins.
It's not as if the "hottest player of the moment" gets an invite or a an invote...
But honestly, I'm really tired of this discussion. You have yours, I have mine
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On January 31 2020 18:17 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2020 17:30 Argonauta wrote:On January 31 2020 17:09 Harris1st wrote:On January 31 2020 00:03 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 20:10 Noa Greenini wrote:On January 29 2020 17:05 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 05:31 Dave4 wrote:
As already mentioned I'm comfortable with Dark as POTY.
However it's nonsense to suggest Dark's year was vastly superior to Serrals, who was in 7 Premier tournament finals and won a team league as well. He has unprecedented consistency and longevity over 24 months to a degree unseen in starcraft 2 before, and has already moved into GOAT discussions.
Anyone still pushing the "foreigners don't mean anything" line is completely naive. GSL vs World proved for good this year that the two scenes are extremely comparable, and Serral/Reynor make 2 of the 3 best players in the world right now. Other foreigners have also demonstrated ongoing success against both foreign and Korean opponents, including Neeb, Special, Time, Elazer and more.
The Korean elitism is seeped in tradition but it is now 3 years since kespa closed its doors. The fact that Korea can't even win nation wars anymore is clear evidence of this.
It astounds me how some people still don't give Serral the credit he deserves, no-one has ever been in the top eschalon for 2 straight years before. IEM or Blizzcon (both 2019 for obv. reasons ) proved for good that these two scenes are not comparable at all. How many foreigners did we see in RO4/RO8 again? On January 29 2020 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On January 29 2020 00:56 deacon.frost wrote:On January 29 2020 00:34 UnLarva wrote:So, Serral was the second best of year 2019. Great! How incredibly hard it is to achieve. Like it would be shame to be the second. Congratz Dark! Maybe Serral was little bit more consistent overall, and statistically little bit better, but when weighting in wins in tournaments, level of competition and trophies, Dark deserves POTY. Maybe its close, but it is nevertheless clear. And yes, this comes from 100% pure breed Serral fanboi, but Its just petty not to applaud the player who deserve the praise, and what happened 2018 have nothing what-so-ever to do with POTY 2019. To foreseeable future its easy to predict that Serral isn't yet completely washed up. Maybe 2020 is better year for him. Lol. soO was so fucking consistent with his 4 Code S finals in a row and almost nobody cared and everybody was talking about winners. Also Serral is hurt by WCS which is a weaker competition while Dark was very good in the Code S and ST2. Out of 8 big titles Serral was competing for 3, which means he has to win some of them to outperform heavily dominating Korean player. Edit> actually this is quite a nice comparison - soO vs Maru. when soO was winning everything except the finals, he was being aknowledged but victors were still more than his achievement. When Maru started his dominating streak and was winning, people were talking much more differently That mirrors your incredibly Korea-centric vision of Sc2, which is not shared by everyone and it is not objective truth, either(also, Serral won GSL vs the World that you include in your "big titles", so if Dark was crowned POTY the reason was not Serral not winning any of those). Being consistent by itself is not enough, you need to actually win titles on top of that and that's why soO wasn't taken into consideration back then: because he was not capable of winning anything. This doesn't mean that consistent players winning few titles(more than zero, ofc) could be preferred over other ones winning more but being incosistent. I didn't say that Serral won none. Read it again. My posts are about the fact Dark won more and was more consistent in the most important title runs. In the end it's not our fault Serral missed 5 of those, is it? You're right, Dark won the most important tournaments 2019 (finals) and Serral 2018 so they have one year of being the undisputed best player each. I'm not sure money earnings is the best metric of "best player" but if that's what you want then sure. Not talking about money. WESG is rewarding what, 200k USD? It's not mentioned because it's 3 Koreans and foreigners. IEM and Blizzcon are the only 2 world champion titles we have. IEM is open to everybody, multiple open qualifications, big prize pool, the best players there. Blizzcon is quite low on the quality(because champions from the first half of the year may get worse - e.g. soO) but it's still a respected WC title and the finish of the season. The next 3 hardest titles are Code S titles. It's a tournament with the biggest pool of skill. Comparable we can talk about ST1 & 2 but considering there's lower money value we can talk about players more focusing on Code S than ST so I value them a little lower. The lowest title of the top for me is GSL vs TW. There's voting, there are more foreigners than the ratio of Blizzcon/IEM play offs would suggest is optimal. But still it has pretty stacked skill pool. That;s why I mentioned these tournaments. If you look with my optics winning a WC title and being good at Code S for the whole year makes you a clear champion. It would get harder to decide with 1 WC title and ST titles vs 1 WC title and Code S domination and just 1 title. I'd argue that GSL vs World counts as a Code S title (at least in the last 2 years) and definitely more than a ST title but whatever How?? GSL vs The world is fan voting and invitation system which doesn't reflect who is the best at the moment of the tournament, whereas an open qualifier ensures the hottest players of the moment wins. It's not as if the "hottest player of the moment" gets an invite or a an invote... But honestly, I'm really tired of this discussion. You have yours, I have mine
Suggestion: if you dont want to discuss, better not start your post with "Id argue" and even better to not comment abotu a discussion if you are tired of the topic.
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It was more meant like: normally I'd argue, but not in this instance. My bad
I just wanted to throw out there, that different views exist on the "value" of tournaments
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EPT
