EPTOn January 31 2020 17:09 Harris1st wrote:
I'd argue that GSL vs World counts as a Code S title (at least in the last 2 years) and definitely more than a ST title but whatever
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On January 31 2020 00:03 deacon.frost wrote:
Not talking about money. WESG is rewarding what, 200k USD? It's not mentioned because it's 3 Koreans and foreigners.
IEM and Blizzcon are the only 2 world champion titles we have. IEM is open to everybody, multiple open qualifications, big prize pool, the best players there. Blizzcon is quite low on the quality(because champions from the first half of the year may get worse - e.g. soO) but it's still a respected WC title and the finish of the season.
The next 3 hardest titles are Code S titles. It's a tournament with the biggest pool of skill. Comparable we can talk about ST1 & 2 but considering there's lower money value we can talk about players more focusing on Code S than ST so I value them a little lower.
The lowest title of the top for me is GSL vs TW. There's voting, there are more foreigners than the ratio of Blizzcon/IEM play offs would suggest is optimal. But still it has pretty stacked skill pool.
That;s why I mentioned these tournaments. If you look with my optics winning a WC title and being good at Code S for the whole year makes you a clear champion. It would get harder to decide with 1 WC title and ST titles vs 1 WC title and Code S domination and just 1 title.
On January 29 2020 20:10 Noa Greenini wrote:
You're right, Dark won the most important tournaments 2019 (finals) and Serral 2018 so they have one year of being the undisputed best player each. I'm not sure money earnings is the best metric of "best player" but if that's what you want then sure.
On January 29 2020 17:05 deacon.frost wrote:
IEM or Blizzcon (both 2019 for obv. reasons
) proved for good that these two scenes are not comparable at all. How many foreigners did we see in RO4/RO8 again?
I didn't say that Serral won none. Read it again. My posts are about the fact Dark won more and was more consistent in the most important title runs. In the end it's not our fault Serral missed 5 of those, is it?
On January 29 2020 05:31 Dave4 wrote:
As already mentioned I'm comfortable with Dark as POTY.
However it's nonsense to suggest Dark's year was vastly superior to Serrals, who was in 7 Premier tournament finals and won a team league as well. He has unprecedented consistency and longevity over 24 months to a degree unseen in starcraft 2 before, and has already moved into GOAT discussions.
Anyone still pushing the "foreigners don't mean anything" line is completely naive. GSL vs World proved for good this year that the two scenes are extremely comparable, and Serral/Reynor make 2 of the 3 best players in the world right now. Other foreigners have also demonstrated ongoing success against both foreign and Korean opponents, including Neeb, Special, Time, Elazer and more.
The Korean elitism is seeped in tradition but it is now 3 years since kespa closed its doors. The fact that Korea can't even win nation wars anymore is clear evidence of this.
It astounds me how some people still don't give Serral the credit he deserves, no-one has ever been in the top eschalon for 2 straight years before.
As already mentioned I'm comfortable with Dark as POTY.
However it's nonsense to suggest Dark's year was vastly superior to Serrals, who was in 7 Premier tournament finals and won a team league as well. He has unprecedented consistency and longevity over 24 months to a degree unseen in starcraft 2 before, and has already moved into GOAT discussions.
Anyone still pushing the "foreigners don't mean anything" line is completely naive. GSL vs World proved for good this year that the two scenes are extremely comparable, and Serral/Reynor make 2 of the 3 best players in the world right now. Other foreigners have also demonstrated ongoing success against both foreign and Korean opponents, including Neeb, Special, Time, Elazer and more.
The Korean elitism is seeped in tradition but it is now 3 years since kespa closed its doors. The fact that Korea can't even win nation wars anymore is clear evidence of this.
It astounds me how some people still don't give Serral the credit he deserves, no-one has ever been in the top eschalon for 2 straight years before.
IEM or Blizzcon (both 2019 for obv. reasons
) proved for good that these two scenes are not comparable at all. How many foreigners did we see in RO4/RO8 again?On January 29 2020 04:20 Xain0n wrote:
That mirrors your incredibly Korea-centric vision of Sc2, which is not shared by everyone and it is not objective truth, either(also, Serral won GSL vs the World that you include in your "big titles", so if Dark was crowned POTY the reason was not Serral not winning any of those).
Being consistent by itself is not enough, you need to actually win titles on top of that and that's why soO wasn't taken into consideration back then: because he was not capable of winning anything.
This doesn't mean that consistent players winning few titles(more than zero, ofc) could be preferred over other ones winning more but being incosistent.
On January 29 2020 00:56 deacon.frost wrote:
soO was so fucking consistent with his 4 Code S finals in a row and almost nobody cared and everybody was talking about winners. Also Serral is hurt by WCS which is a weaker competition while Dark was very good in the Code S and ST2.
Out of 8 big titles Serral was competing for 3, which means he has to win some of them to outperform heavily dominating Korean player.
Edit> actually this is quite a nice comparison - soO vs Maru. when soO was winning everything except the finals, he was being aknowledged but victors were still more than his achievement. When Maru started his dominating streak and was winning, people were talking much more differently
On January 29 2020 00:34 UnLarva wrote:
So, Serral was the second best of year 2019. Great! How incredibly hard it is to achieve. Like it would be shame to be the second.
Congratz Dark! Maybe Serral was little bit more consistent overall, and statistically little bit better, but when weighting in wins in tournaments, level of competition and trophies, Dark deserves POTY. Maybe its close, but it is nevertheless clear.
And yes, this comes from 100% pure breed Serral fanboi, but Its just petty not to applaud the player who deserve the praise, and what happened 2018 have nothing what-so-ever to do with POTY 2019.
To foreseeable future its easy to predict that Serral isn't yet completely washed up. Maybe 2020 is better year for him. Lol.
So, Serral was the second best of year 2019. Great! How incredibly hard it is to achieve. Like it would be shame to be the second.
Congratz Dark! Maybe Serral was little bit more consistent overall, and statistically little bit better, but when weighting in wins in tournaments, level of competition and trophies, Dark deserves POTY. Maybe its close, but it is nevertheless clear.
And yes, this comes from 100% pure breed Serral fanboi, but Its just petty not to applaud the player who deserve the praise, and what happened 2018 have nothing what-so-ever to do with POTY 2019.
To foreseeable future its easy to predict that Serral isn't yet completely washed up. Maybe 2020 is better year for him. Lol.
soO was so fucking consistent with his 4 Code S finals in a row and almost nobody cared and everybody was talking about winners. Also Serral is hurt by WCS which is a weaker competition while Dark was very good in the Code S and ST2.
Out of 8 big titles Serral was competing for 3, which means he has to win some of them to outperform heavily dominating Korean player.
Edit> actually this is quite a nice comparison - soO vs Maru. when soO was winning everything except the finals, he was being aknowledged but victors were still more than his achievement. When Maru started his dominating streak and was winning, people were talking much more differently
That mirrors your incredibly Korea-centric vision of Sc2, which is not shared by everyone and it is not objective truth, either(also, Serral won GSL vs the World that you include in your "big titles", so if Dark was crowned POTY the reason was not Serral not winning any of those).
Being consistent by itself is not enough, you need to actually win titles on top of that and that's why soO wasn't taken into consideration back then: because he was not capable of winning anything.
This doesn't mean that consistent players winning few titles(more than zero, ofc) could be preferred over other ones winning more but being incosistent.
I didn't say that Serral won none. Read it again. My posts are about the fact Dark won more and was more consistent in the most important title runs. In the end it's not our fault Serral missed 5 of those, is it?
You're right, Dark won the most important tournaments 2019 (finals) and Serral 2018 so they have one year of being the undisputed best player each. I'm not sure money earnings is the best metric of "best player" but if that's what you want then sure.
Not talking about money. WESG is rewarding what, 200k USD? It's not mentioned because it's 3 Koreans and foreigners.
IEM and Blizzcon are the only 2 world champion titles we have. IEM is open to everybody, multiple open qualifications, big prize pool, the best players there. Blizzcon is quite low on the quality(because champions from the first half of the year may get worse - e.g. soO) but it's still a respected WC title and the finish of the season.
The next 3 hardest titles are Code S titles. It's a tournament with the biggest pool of skill. Comparable we can talk about ST1 & 2 but considering there's lower money value we can talk about players more focusing on Code S than ST so I value them a little lower.
The lowest title of the top for me is GSL vs TW. There's voting, there are more foreigners than the ratio of Blizzcon/IEM play offs would suggest is optimal. But still it has pretty stacked skill pool.
That;s why I mentioned these tournaments. If you look with my optics winning a WC title and being good at Code S for the whole year makes you a clear champion. It would get harder to decide with 1 WC title and ST titles vs 1 WC title and Code S domination and just 1 title.
I'd argue that GSL vs World counts as a Code S title (at least in the last 2 years) and definitely more than a ST title but whatever
GSL v TW isn't a Code S title, I personally rank it even lower than a ST, but for the sake of easier argument I placed in on the same rank, in the end in most of the tournaments there were the best players, the tourney was missing some, but it's not like it was missing all of them. But it doesn't have as big skill pool as IEM or Code S has. (I place IEM higher than Code S because WC title, because openness, but it's not like it's a huge difference)
Edit:
Basically what I meant
Top tier = WC title, Blizzcon/IEM
2nd tier = Code S title
3rd tier = GSL v TW, GSL ST
